Today I end my support of Israel

[ProgressiveMuslim]

On the Daily Kos:


by Chilean Jew
Sun Dec 28, 2008 at 11:07:48 AM PST
Like davidminzer, I'm Jewish and descendant of holocaust survivors. Moreover, I've been a Zionist all of my life. I went to a Zionist school, I was active in Zionist youth groups. I've always been a fervent supporter of Israel as a refuge for Jews around the world who seek a place to exercise their traditions and embrace their identity in peace.

I sang the Israeli anthem in the train rails of Aushwitz-Birkenau and I pledged to fight every day of my life to make sure the savage crimes that had taken place there would never happen again. Every year I pledged: Never Again. Remember and Never forget.

Well, I haven't forgotten. And so to honor that pledge, to honor the memory of my family members who died in those death camps and because "there comes a time when silence is betrayal", today I finally and publicly end my support for the state of Israel.

Chilean Jew's diary :: ::
I do this with great pain in my heart, but nonetheless with the overwhelming conviction that it is the only right thing to do. I was patient: I tolerated the destruction of the Oslo process by refusing to end or slow down the constant and criminal construction of settlements. I held my nose and stood my ground when Barak killed the final status negotiations at Taba 2001. I even remained loyal after Sharon's massacres in the West Bank, the brutal Annexation wall, the illegal "selective assassinations" and Olmert's war crimes in Lebanon.


please read on...
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. I support both the Israelis and the Palestinians

who want nothing more than to go to work, raise their kids, and live in peace.

I think there are majorities of those on both sides. However, I think the minority happen to control most of the weapons, which really sucks.

[uppityperson]

2. Indeed. eom

[MUAD_DIB]

4. Magic, you have hit the nail on the head.

[THUNDER HANDS]

5. I look at it like this

In terms of the Palestinians...

Most of them probably would like to have peace with Israel and don't really want it to be destroyed. They see an economy that's good, a society that's functioning and lawful, and in their hearts, they'd like to be apart of that. I do think most of them hate the way Israel has reacted to the extremist elements in their midst, but I also think it's quite possible they don't really blame Israel for all their suffering. I'm sure they look around them, see all their arab neighbors who really don't lift a finger to help them much, and get disappointed and see peace with Israel as the only functional avenue for a normal life. Of course, I think a lot of them also realize they're never going to have their own nation - since most nations have standing armies, and Israel would never allow a standing army inside its borders.

In terms of the Israelis...

Most of them probably would like to have peace with the Palestinians and end the stupid cycle of tit-for-tat that's gone on. Most don't live in fear for their lives every day (this I know for a fact, because I've talked with a lot of native Israelis) and think the reputation of Israel as a dangerous place is overblown. The center-left doesn't want to overreact and create more hatred, but they also don't want to be seen as weak, so they have to walk a fine line. Sometimes, like in this situation, they may step over the line. I think a lot of Israelis wish they knew a way to break the Palestinian extremists from the regular civilians so they could just remove them, but I think they know in their hearts there's no way to do that. When you bomb dozens of sites of extremists and kill hundreds of people, you're creating as many new extremists as they kill. Most Israelis are smart enough to realize this, even if they don't see another option.


Ultimately, there's only two ways this can realistically end. And by realistically end, I mean END.

1. Israel conceeds to all of the Palestinian demands short of vacating from Israel itself.

or

2. Israel goes in and completely demolishes both the Gaza strip and the West Bank and kicks every Palestinian out.

Those are the only to realistic options for ending the violence. Anything short of either will just continue the violence at varying levels for decades to come. Because the kids in Gaza now are going to grow up having nothing to live for but fighting Israel. And that's not good for the Palestinians or the Israelis.

[hack89]

10. But Hamas demands the end of Israel

so how is your first option possible?

[THUNDER HANDS]

19. well...

hamas isn't the only player at the palestinian negotiating tables. I think, realistically, if the Palestinians knew they'd get what they wanted in a peace deal - short of Israeli's packing up and leaving, they'd take it and kick Hamas to the curb.

note, however, that those two scenarios I listed were the only two guarantees of peace. That doesn't mean they're likely.

[JDPriestly]

38. Right now, Israel is aiming for Hamas. Israel has made a number

of moves toward encouraging peace lately -- freeing prisoners among other things.

These attacks are in response to actions by Hamas. Egypt also does not like what Hamas is doing in Gaza but dares not be too open about its dislike.

Hamas is an extremist fundamentalist group in Palestine. It is impeding progress toward peace. I think this current action by Israel is a strategic, possibly even coordinated, effort to weaken Hamas. I hope it is successful. If Hamas were out of the picture, Israel and the rational Palestinians could make better progress -- gradually, of course, toward real long-term peace.

Yes, there are also extremists on the Israeli side, but I sincerely believe that Israel would gladly work toward peaceful solutions and a world in which they could live at ease with non-Israelis in the area. Israel is paying a horrible price for maintaining its military. It is not a popular nation, needless to say. The ongoing conflict is not good for Israel. But with Hamas next door, neither Israel nor Egypt can rest easy.

Just what "peace" would mean in terms of details, I could not say, but weakening Hamas would make peace more likely. And that is what Israel is trying to do now. It is horrible that innocent people are caught in the crossfire, but the weaker Hamas becomes, the more likely that there will be fewer deaths or injuries on both sides in the future.

[mike_c]

3. I used to be a staunch supporter of Israel...

...although, in fairness, I was not well educated about the Palestinian and arab sides of the dispute.

I ended my support several years ago.

[elfin]

6. There was plenty of Hamas provocation BUT Israel

responded so strongly as to give Hamas and Palestinians some sympathy ( not earned).

This is horrific, but expected as long as there is no aggressive diplomacy in the area.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. He will be a "useful tool."

[cali]

8. oh, c'mon. that's silly. however, the diary amused me

as he has a history of writing scathing diaries about Israel at kos. It's really not true that he's ending his support of Israel over this. He hasn't supported Israel for some time.

[azurnoir]

23. I am amused at whom you follow

will the real Cali please stand up LOL

[cali]

58. the real cali stands up day after day.

you're confused because you have trouble grasping that some of us don't see the situation in terms of black and white. That's understandable.

[azurnoir]

66. Really I have been reading your posts they some

of the most lack and white here on this forum, although I found your "spat" with another poster quite impressive.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Could you supply some examples of these scathing diaries?

I just looked at their diary and there's nothing there to indicate what you said, though I couldn't find any archive section to read older ones which is why I'm asking you...

[cali]

59. I'll try. The search section at kos can be

pretty difficult.

[rundownman]

11. I see you don't support fairness for the original people of the land in dispute.

One day too, you will open your eyes I hope to the racist and hatefull idea that is modern zionism.

Only if you didn't believe the people living in gaza were humans then you could justify what is happening to them. Walk away from the darkness of zionism.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Uh-huh.

Keep up with the hate-mongering propaganda of the idiotic far-left.

I will not walk away from Zionism, no matter what positions the neo-Nazis take nor their ignorant leftist counterparts.

[rundownman]

21. Oh..... stop it

There is no need for name calling.

All educated people know that Zionism is a nationalistic thought pattern. We are all citizens of the world israelis are citizens of the world, russians are citizens of the world arabs are citizens of the world.

Your line of thinking may have been acceptable even to other people and nations years ago, but thanks to education, etc the peoples of the world are waking up to realize that multiculturalism is a good thing, even europeans of today are more welcoming to their muslim immigrants, many years ago they would have attacked the muslim immigrants because of nationalistic thinking that was popular at the time.

Today, thanks to education this is not the case. I think Israel just needs good multiethnic education programs. This is not unreasonable it happens in europe and every other country, which is why israel is being criticized now.

Like I said, at one time zionistic/nationalistic thinking may have been acceptable but that was decades ago, we must move beyond that it is not "far left" to want peace for people. a border is an ARTIFICIAL line.

[JDPriestly]

39. I can tell you from personal experience that lots of Europeans

hate Jews. I lived in Europe for some years. Actually, I found less hate in Germany than in France or Austria. I could hardly believe some of the things I heard. Austrians would tell me what they really thought in most ghastly terms. I am not Jewish, but I am related by marriage to Holocaust survivors.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. What do you mean by *lots*? Most of them?

Can you please clarify that?

[JDPriestly]

48. Most -- No, but many more than Americans would ever believe.

Especially in Austria, Eastern Europe, France. I even worked with some extremely anti-Jewish people in London. It is a part of the culture.

Poland and Austria still had Catholic shrines that falsely accused Jews of horrendous crimes until the late '70s at least. And Georg Haider, who recently died, led an extremely right-wing party that attracted enough sympathizers with extremist ideas (not all directed at Jewish people) to get him elected at least at a regional level.

Israel was recognized as a Jewish homeland after WWII because international leaders could think of no other safe place for Jews including the million or so Jews who were stranded in German concentration camps (not just in Germany) after WWII. They could not safely be repatriated into the countries from which they had come. It was a terrible crisis.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Well, as lots of Americans falsely believe that Europe is a seething mass of antisemites...

I think yr just another one who's preaching to the choir and not realising that others who aren't Americans (like me) have been to Europe and know full well it's not part of the culture. While antisemitism exists as it exists in the US as well, it's not part of the culture at all...

And please spare me the mini-lectures about the creation of Israel, especially when they're so incredibly simplistic and not entirely correct....

[JDPriestly]

72. I lived in Europe for many years. My statements are based on

first-hand experience.

[rundownman]

65. Name one single anti-semetic country in europe today?

I'm talking about an antisemetic government elected by the people.
By the simply criticizing israeli aggression doesn't qualify.

I don't truely believe europeans are "seething" with antisemetism as a whole, and it is being paranoid to think so, the far right apart from sensational media outlets are not on the "rise" in europe, because the people as a whole don't believe in them and for that matter have hopefully been educated against nationalistic thought.

This is probably why most europeans are against zionism because zionism is simply ethnic nationalism, nothing more, nothing less.

[JDPriestly]

71. The majority of Europeans are not anti-semitic, but a goodly

portion of them are, especially when you get into the countryside. I saw it everywhere except, ironically in Germany. (But it may have been simply that I did not know German well enough when I lived there to encourage people to confide in me. By the time I got to Austria, I understood and the people knew I understood and many, many of them expressed their anti-semitism to me.) Besides, until the late 1970s, as I explained in another post, Austria and Poland still had shrines to the alleged victims of Jewish crimes. The shrines were based on total lies that have been completely debunked. Nevertheless, generations of school children were taken to such shrines and fed lies about Jews. The efforts to slander Jewish people had an effect. And it is still felt today. I am not saying the majority of Europeans are anti-semitic, but enough are, and the sentiment is strong enough in several of the European cultures that it is a constant threat.

[Behind the Aegis]

53. Your post is a joke.

You complain about "name-calling" then immediately imply I am uneducated, which I can assure is far from the truth. The rest of your dribble shows you do not actually understand the reality of the situation. Of course, it is not "far left" to want peace, nor did I say or imply such a thing, so put your strawman back in the field.

[LeftishBrit]

54. I agree that we're all citizens of the world

and that nationalism has very bad effects. On a pure ideological level I would agree with you about borders and nationalism; but nationalism is a fact of life, and at present, the only alternatives seem to be complete lawlessness, tribal warfare, or some form of imperial control. None of which are to be supported.

And Arabs, Russians, etc, have their own brands of nationalism and plenty of it; yet it doesn't seem to get the same condemnation as Zionism. If one is anti-Zionist on anti-nationalist grounds, then one should be against *all* nationalism. You may be, but lots of people are not!

I agree that Israel needs more multi-ethnic education and more Jewish/Arab integration in schools:

www.nswas.org

www.handinhand12.org

But as a Europaean, I think you've got some pretty rosy spectacles on about the situation in Europe. Yes, there have been improvements: blatant racism is no longer as acceptable as it was in most places; and there is more school integration in many (not all) places than in the past. But for evidence of the persistence of bigotry of all sorts, all you need to do is pick up a popular British tabloid such as the Daily Mail or Daily Express, with their hatred of immigrants, Muslims and minorities generally. Or worse, observe the situation in Italy, where the government is ruthlessly RW and anti-immigrant, and the Mayor of Rome is near-fascist. Most Europaean countries have a significant problem with neo-Nazi and related groups, which tend to be both antisemitic and anti-Muslim.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Just butting in here, but I support fairness for both Israelis and Palestinians...

And the Occupied Territories aren't in dispute, btw. The territory is Palestinian and the occupation of that land does not make the territory disputed in any way...

About modern Zionism. There's many different strands of Zionism and I'd definately say that the Revisionist Zionism started by Jabotinsky is hateful and racist, but if yr talking about mainstream Zionism, then I'd say it's no more hateful and racist than many other forms of nationalism. Mainstream Zionism does change constantly as time goes on, but it's not the superheated and dangerous mix of ultra-nationalism and religious fervour that exists when it comes to the sort of Zionism exhibited by extremist settlers. There's no doubt that mainstream Zionism has left victims in its wake as with other forms of nationalism, but the problem isn't hatred or racism, but a tendency to not notice or particularly care about the people who've been hurt in the process...

For the record, I think what's been done to the population of Gaza is unjustifiable, but I don't think Zionism is some dark and terrible thing that's to blame for what's happened. In fact, I think political Zionism is fascinating to read about, and I'd suggest reading about it to anyone interested in the I/P conflict...

[rundownman]

9. Its about time! welcome aboard

We cannot let our ethnic background cloud our thinking in regard to other peoples.

you are right to stand on your convictions that the people of gaza shouldn't be starved by a blockade and bombed over and over.

Thank you for standing against zionism.

Only the racist philosophy that is MODERN zionism could account for the terrible treatment the people of gaza are receiving.

[Kurska]

12. ZIonism isn't racism, it's the last refuge of the jewish people.

It's was about establishing and now about protecting a state for jews, something it seems like the vast majority of the people around the world have achieved (Receiving their own state, bulgaria for bulgarians, poland for polaks). I do hope that one day the Palestinians can receive their own state, just like how jews have theirs.

[rundownman]

13. Actually, according to a 1975 UN resolution, zionism is indeed racism.

And according to modern thinking and logic, zionism is racism.

Your way of thinking might have been understandable many, many years ago but it is not in today's world.

Poland for polaks? Bulgaria for bulgarians? GIVE ME A BREAK that is nationalistic double speak and even the people in those countries, thanks to education, etc do not think that way anymore.. If they do than they are in need of more education.

Modern Europe is even becoming more accepting of muslim immigrants, etc... the peoples of europe and the rest of the world might have been okay with your line of thinking for israel and other countries back during tribal days but this is a global world today and as part of a global society we must be accepting of others, as must israel. Perhapse more inclusive education is needed in israel??

Multiculturalism is a strength and can be for israel as well, it could end the unnecessary killing of gaza citizens as well as israeli citizens... Israel must be forced to accept multi-culturalism or it will continue on this nationalistic line of thinking that makes it okay to kill off other people who are not ethnically simular to yourself.

[oberliner]

14. The resolution was revoked in 1991

Just out of curiosity, why did you choose to join DU today?

[rundownman]

15. That doesn't matter.

It was revoked but that doesn't mean it wasn't originally right.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Why are you only curious about why this one poster joined today?

I've seen many folk who've joined today or yesterday who've been posting in threads with you and you didn't ask any of them that question, so why now with this poster? Isn't it more polite to welcome someone to DU? That's what I've been doing....

[oberliner]

34. I've gone back and forth with this particular poster quite a bit today

And I've never seen them here before. The profile says they joined today, so I was curious.

The poster is welcome not to indulge my curiosity if they do not wish to respond to my question.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Yeah, on my first day I went back and forth a lot with one DUer...

I don't know if this poster will indulge yr curiousity, but as a consolation prize, the reason I joined on the particular day I did was because I got an email from a Canadian friend who's still hanging out at DU telling me to go check out what masquerades for left-wing thought in the US. So I did, and after I'd finished having a laugh at some posts in LBN, I joined up, found the I/P forum and settled in. I just wish someone had cared back then to ask me why I picked that particular day to join DU *sigh* ;)

[rundownman]

36. Thanks

I appreciate the support.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. No worries, and welcome to DU...

:)

[JDPriestly]

44. DU is the Democratic Underground. It is not extremely left wing.

Most DUers are actually middle of the road.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Yeah, yr post is the sort of thing my friend was talking about...

Americans have some weird thing where what's middle of the road when it comes to left-wing elsewhere in the world gets morphed into an extremely nasty *extremely left wing*. Which is why I've seen some of the weird things I've seen at DU over the years...

[Hell Hath No Fury]

75. Sounds just like you...

when you came on board during the Israeli hit on Lebanon -- a newbie, taking on longtime DUers, defending Israel's right of preemption. :shrug:

Some of us have very long memories...

[oberliner]

80. That's exactly right

And a lot of people asked me why I had joined at the time.

I feel kind of honored that you remember that - it was quite intense.

[Kurska]

16. Would you consider poland the home of polaks Or russia the home of russians?

Why is it so weird that the jews would want a similar nation home, especially considering that most other peoples on earth are granted that honour. (Infact besides zionism, I have a very strong love of the idea of a Kurdistan.)

[rundownman]

17. No, I wouldn't.

I would consider the entire earth the home of polaks and russians as well as jews and arabs.

This is why immigration is and should be rising to the countries you mentioned.

"Russia for russians" is a racist slogan used by russian nationalists by the way, the same nationalists who were found guilty of attacking immigrants to russia.

It shouldn't be considered an "honor" to kick out people from where they are living so you can have a homeland.

Further it shouldn't be considered an "honor" to kick immigrants out of your country and keep your country "ethnically pure". we are all members of the same planet and borders are artificial.

[JDPriestly]

45. You are unrealistic. How old are you?

[rundownman]

67. I'm 19 and nothing I've said is wrong

This is the problem with older people who have been entrenched in years and years and years of doing the same thing over and over, its all they know.

so when you suggest something new and pratical they balk and gasp and say "we can'd DO THAT!"

Well the truth is for the older folks who "can't" do what needs to be done they should get out of the way and let people who can like the younger generations solve the problems they apparently can't solve.

[JDPriestly]

73. As I said, it is a great idea, but it has been tried, and it failed.

There has to be a will for peace among the ordinary people in order for peacekeeping forces to work. Otherwise, the peacekeeping forces just become a brutal army themselves as they become frustrated and angry with the violence that the population itching to fight with the other side. In addition, when two sides really want to fight, the peacekeepers become the target to shoot at first. So you have to put in huge numbers of peacekeepers to be effective, and it is hard to get the money or the soldiers for very long.

[GoesTo11]

18. Jews are welcome in Russia and Poland and Libya

It's ridiculous to think that some countries would not welcome Jews. From their history of having been welcome in so many different places, the Jews should understand that the world is their homeland.

[rundownman]

22. are you being sarcastic?

The truth is in most countries there are jews living there now and they aren't oppressed. sure some countries need continued education but Israel isn't being so welcoming themselves.

[Kurska]

31. I didn't really say they weren't

Home land doesn't mean other ethnic groups aren't allowed, it usually tends to mean the country represents the cradle from which your group spawned. Does anyone dispute that israel is the jewish state/homeland?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. There are a number of countries that are not nearly so welcoming of Jews and others

[High Plains]

50. I would consider Palestine the home of the Palestinians...

...but I guess I would be wrong.

[rockymountaindem]

24. Have you ever BEEN to Poland?

Nationalism in Poland is dead... yeah right. Your whole post-nationalist shtick is straight out of dreamland.

And as others have pointed out, the Zionism-is-racism resolution was rescinded because everybody knew it was passed by the Arab states in conjunction with the communist bloc for political purposes. Get real.

[rundownman]

26. No I haven't

but if nationalism is thriving the reason is probably because of a lack of immigration as well as education.

This may be why poland is strangely silent on what is going on in Israel today considering what happened during WWII in poland, poland should be leading the charge against zionism.

[rockymountaindem]

28. I'm puzzled by your logic

Your solution to nationalism is for everybody to move around as much as possible?

[rundownman]

29. no where'd you get that idea? n/t

[rockymountaindem]

30. From your statement that xenophobia is caused by a lack of immigration

As I'm sure you're aware, immigration in Europe has prompted a considerable anti-immigrant backlash that has renewed old antagonisms.

[rundownman]

32. xenophobia can be cured if people are exposed to multiculturalism

and realize that the immigrants are really no different than they are, they just want to work and provide a good life for their family (for the most part).

Then when they realize that nationalism is based on irrational fear no rooted in truth they can begin to let go of unrealistic ideas about immigrants, etc.

Education will play a big role in this.

your idea that immigration in europe has prompted a backlash is not really supported by the facts.. other than breathless anti-immigrant media reports where is the evidence.

Not a single nationalist party has came to power in europe, most countries are liberal democracies with a few that are free market conservative.

[JDPriestly]

46. I've lived in several different countries. Not only was each one

nationalistic, but in each, various regions were, I guess you would say, regionalistic.

[Shaktimaan]

40. So you think that Israel should be more multivcultural, like europe?

I find that ironic considering that Israel is far more diverse than any European country I can think of. Israel is only around 75% Jewish, the remainder are Bedouins, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Druze, etc. The Jewish population is also extremely racially diverse, it has become a melting pot of Jews from almost every continent, representing dozens of different cultures, languages and customs.

Israel must be forced to accept multi-culturalism or it will continue on this nationalistic line of thinking that makes it okay to kill off other people who are not ethnically simular to yourself.

I just thought this line was funny... about how others must be forced to subscribe to your beliefs in the name of progressivism. Especially since those beliefs are not really based on reality. Can you actually show me anything that suggests Israelis believe they should kill those who differ ethnically from them? That's an absurd accusation to make against one of the most ethnically and racially diverse nations on the planet.

At any rate it seems that your problem is not with Israel or Zionism, per say, but with the world in general and the modern system of ethnically based nation-states. But it seems pointless to criticize Israel for a system that the entire planet is organized into.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. He clearly has no idea what it is like in Israel

Not even a whiff of a clue

[LeftishBrit]

55. This resolution was rescinded. And according to the anti-nationalist argument,bloody hypocritical

I don't think the UN has EVER condemned Polish or Bulgarian nationalism, to use your examples - or American, Chinese, Russian, British, or any form of Arab nationalism. Only Zionism. Why?

If the UN declared that ALL nationalism was wrong, and that all nations should move toward disbanding as isolated entities and opening their borders, then it could be logical for them to include Zionism. But the day that happens, we can plan for the next Winter Olympics in Hades.

This is the question: why is all other nationalism OK, and Zionism is not?

[JDPriestly]

41. You are right. And of all people on earth, Jews need a safe haven.

Eritrea, Hungary, Poland, even Italy were all formed as homelands for people who identified with a certain nationality. If you look at history, you will learn that much of Northern Italy was at one time a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Then there is what we used to call Yugoslavia which has been partitioned to allow for small nations for people with common ethnic/national identities. Then there are the Ukraine and Georgia and, and, and . . . .

Israel is just one of a number of nations that have formed in relatively recent times. It is simply the way of the world -- to move boundaries, to form nations, to migrate from country to country.

The face of Europe, at the same time, has become far more diverse. The move toward diversity, however, is countered by the move elsewhere toward ethnic and national division. It all depends. No one seems to mind that Bosnians and Croatians now have safe havens. Why are people so hostile to Israel? Bosnia and Croatia achieved their separateness through violence. Israel was established by international mandate from an area that was under British Protectorate because after the Turkish Ottoman Empire lost WWI and the Palestinian leadership (which side with Hitler during WWII) lost hold. That is the way history works.

[rundownman]

69. That doesn't make it right

so you are apparently against liberal ideas? just because someone in the past has done something wrong doesn't mean that it is okay to do it in the future.

We're suppose to be working towards a better world.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

79. Had an interesting encounter with a lovely Zionoist today on the streets of Philly.

I was at a small demonstration and this ugly little man gets in my face, shouting "the only good Arab is a dead Arab."

I'm an American, but am standing next to my 14 year old Palestinian American daughter. I said, "Sir. This young woman is an Arab."

He looked at straight at her and said. "You should be dead."

If a violent, colonial movement is the last refuge of Jews, Jews are in big trouble.

[JDPriestly]

43. It isn't about Palestine v. Israel right now. It is about Islamic extremists

in Hamas and their neighbors. Hamas is not popular in Israel. But it also is not popular in Egypt. Hamas is an impediment to peace and to opening up communication between Israel and rational Palestinians. The terrible treatment of the people of Gaza is due to Hamas, not Israel or Egypt.

[High Plains]

51. Yeah, Hamas is bombing Gaza, right.

Israel was so nice to the Palestinians before Hamas took power, right?

[depakid]

52. That in NO WAY justifies Isreal's behavior over the past several days

Like the OP, I too have finally had enough- and my hope is that President-Elect Obama will withdraw significant US support andf aid from these war criminals, as that's about the only thing they seem to understand.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

60. No it's not. It's Israel massacreing Palestinians.

If this were about Hamas, there would celebration in Fatah-controlled areas.

Instead there are demonstrations in every West Bank town and in every Arab capital with the exception of Egypt. Only the puppets like Mubarak are pooping their pants.

[Behind the Aegis]

61. Isn't Abbas a "puppet?"

You have implied as much.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

62. FCOL have you even seen him on TV? He has not even spoken to denounce the massacre of fellow

Palestinians!

Is he a puppet?

ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oberliner]

63. President Abbas Condemns Israeli Aggression Against Gaza

RAMALLAH, President Mahmoud Abbas firmly condemned the Israeli aggression against the Gaza Strip, and called for a campaign to donate blood for the victims.

The Palestinian Presidency Spokesman, Nabil Abu Rudeinah, said that President Abbas “Firmly condemns the Israeli aggression against the Gaza Strip and demands the Israeli Government to immediately stop its attacks on our people.”

He also called for a blood donation campaign to aid the Palestinians injured by Israeli fire.

http://english.wafa.ps/?action=detail&id=12455

Abbas is calling for a blood donation campaign while Haniyeh is calling for the murder of every last Zionist and Arab collaborator.

Which response do you find to be more progressive?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

78. Are the blood donations for the people of Sderot?

Are they my only choices?

Say it isn't so!

[rundownman]

70. Abbas is a puppet

If he's not a puppet I don't know what you call someone whose strings are pulled by israel.

[Vegasaurus]

64. Islamic extremism is the greatest threat we face in the world today

Just yesterday there were suicide bombings that killed dozens of Afghan children, as well as dozens in Pakistan and Iraq.

These are Muslim on Muslim murders.

Hamas is yet another terrorist group, only it is intent on killing every last Jew.

Islamic fundmanentalists and extremists are hell bent on killing as many people as possible, and they are not only Westerners and Jews, but Muslims of different sects.

[rundownman]

68. No, its not..... maybe its the greatest threat YOU face but no me.

maybe since you have been so brainwashed into believing the bush lies you are so afraid of muslims that around every corner there may be a terrorist hiding behind a tree. for you they are the greatest threat

but look at europe there are peacefull muslims living there and very large numbers your just wrong. They are like us and want work and food for their families.

[Better Believe It]

74. The greatest threat the world faces today is the nuclear armed terrorist regime in Israel

[LeftishBrit]

76. The greatest threat to the WORLD is Israel?

You're not serious?

It's one thing to have criticisms of Israel.

I am against the Occupation.

I consider that *as long as Israel has jurisdiction over Gaza*, it also has some responsibilities toward it, even if Hamas' actions are utterly despicable.

I am against the present military action, and think it it is counterproductive.

But the biggest threat in the WORLD? From a country the size of Israel???? What about huge and powerful countries like America and Russia and China, which have loads of nukes and often have dodgy governments??????

And by the way: I have been trying to restrain myself, as I'm not sure that we're supposed to refer to posts in other forums, but your posts are getting so extreme that I can't help saying it: How do you reconcile your opposition to Israel with being DU's top defender of China's actions toward Tibet?

[EFerrari]

77. That's just madness. The greatest terrorist threat in the world today

is the rogue American government and its clients. The numbers don't even begin to compare and neither does the reach.

[burythehatchet]

81. racist pigs are the greatest threat we face today

[burythehatchet]

82. mine ended in 1983 when war criminal Ariel Sharon orchestrated the massacres at Sabra and Chatilla