Rights orgs: Israel's willful killings a war crime

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Palestinian human rights organizations strongly condemn the recent military attacks carried out by the Israeli occupying forces in the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008. The attacks began at approximately 11:30am and lasted for approximately three hours. These attacks have destroyed most of the Gaza security offices including police stations, resulting in the deaths of more than 200 Palestinians. More than 350 have been injured with at least 120 critically.

The number of deaths resulting from these attacks indicates a willful targeting of the civilian police forces in these locations and a clear violation of the prohibition against willful killings. Willful killings are a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention under Article 147 and therefore, a war crime. Both the time and location of these attacks also indicate a malicious intent to inflict as many casualties as possible with many of the police stations located in civilian population centers and the time of the attacks coinciding with the end of the school day resulting in the deaths of numerous children.

The ongoing siege of the Gaza Strip has left medical facilities in the Strip incapable of meeting the needs of the hundreds more who have been injured which will likely lead to an increase in the number of deaths. According to Israeli officials, these attacks are only the beginning of an open military campaign in Gaza. It is therefore imperative that the international community not stand in silence while Israel moves forward with impunity.

Despite repeated calls from the Palestinian human rights community with regard to Gaza, the international community has failed to act. We are now on the brink of an explosion of violence as result of this failure and are pushed once again to call for action.

In light of the above, Palestinian human rights organizations urge:


The UN Security Council to call an emergency session and adopt concrete measures, including the imposition of sanctions, in order to ensure Israel's fulfillment of its obligations under international humanitarian law.
The High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions to fulfill their obligation under common Article 1 to ensure respect for the provisions of the Conventions, taking appropriate measures to compel Israel to abide by its obligations under international humanitarian law, in particular placing pivotal importance on the respect and protection of civilians from the effects of the hostilities.
The High Contracting Parties to fulfill their legal obligation under Article 146 of the Fourth Geneva Convention to prosecute those responsible for grave breaches of the Convention.
EU institutions and member states to make effective use of the European Union Guidelines on promoting compliance with international humanitarian law (2005/C 327/04) to ensure Israel complies with international humanitarian law under paragraph 16 (b), (c) and (d) of these guidelines, including the adoption of immediate restrictive measures and sanctions, as well as cessation of all upgrade dialogue with Israel.


Undersigned organizations:
Al-Haq
Addameer Prisoners' Support & Human Rights Association
Ad-Dameer Association for Human Rights
Al-Mezan Center for Human Rights
Defence for Children International
Ensan Center for Democracy & Human Rights
Independent Commission for Human Rights (ICHR)
Jerusalem Legal Aid & Human Rights Center (JLAC)
Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR)
Palestinian Center for the Independence of the Judiciary and the Legal Profession - Musawa
Ramallah Center for Human Rights Studies (RCHRS)
Women's Center for Legal Aid and Counseling (WCLAC)
Women's Studies Center
The Palestinian Non-Governmental Organizations' Network - PNGO

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10057.shtml

[ProgressiveMuslim]

1. Did Israel attack "Hamas" or Palestine?

While many here repeat the notion that these were surgical attacks aimed at Hamas operatives, the reality is that the people of Palestine, not just Gaza, but in the West Bank as well, are clear that this was a massacre of Palestinian people.

Signatories to this statement include esteemed secular human rights organizations and other NGOs.

I just want to point out that progressive organizations in Palestine regard this attack as a war crime, not a surgical strike.

[aquart]

8. And blowing up a bus full of students and shoppers is just self determination?

One-sided standards are always such fun. Never a word about WHY Palestinians are not welcome in Israel.

Lobbing rockets into another country is NOT supposed to lead to death? Or it's only supposed to lead to the other guy's death and not yours?

So basically, your beef is that the Israelis had good aim and the Palestinians had sucky aim. And that, of course, is just not fair.

OR ARE YOU TRYING TO SELL ME THAT THIS WAS AN UNPROVOKED ATTACK?

Firing rockets leads to death. Show me your posts about how wrong it was to fire those rockets. Bet there were LOTS of them.

[subsuelo]

14. Israel has been massacring the natives for some time now

Nice excuses for Israel's terrorism though.

[NYVet]

22. Israel has not used the same tactics as Hamas and Hezbollah

and nowhere do you see an open declaration from Israel that the Palestinians have no right to exist.

Nice excuse for Palestinian terrorism though.

[subsuelo]

29. Where was I making an excuse for Palestinian terrorism?

[texshelters]

53. You weren't making excuses subsuelo

but to some, Israel can never do anything wrong.

I figure like most, you abhor senseless violence on both sides and you recognize that Israel has the weapons to kill (planes with bombs) that Palestinians don't.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[aquart]

60. Yeah, honey. They bomb. Israel bulldozes.

Israel has been desperately trying NOT to "massacre" these people.

BTW, have you EVER posted condemning a Muslim atrocity? Could you link me to those posts?

[High Plains]

88. Israel bulldozes...and bombs...and blockades...and shoots kids with rocks

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. By every report to date, the IAF targeted buildings that belonged to Hamas,

government structures, or were somehow being used for martial purposes. However, the seminal source for that is only the IAF. No mention of mistakes either, which would have cost civilian lives in large measure.

There were no attacks on the West Bank.

When using high explosives there is no such thing as a surgical strike.

Everyone who is attacked calls it a war crime.

The use of the terms massacre and martyrs is premature at this point.

For now treat all reports from all sides with skepticism.

We will have to see what actually happened when the smoke clears, if that will be possible.

Until then we should all pray for peace to whatever God(s) or NGOs we worship

[aquart]

61. Not only no attacks on West Bank...

But I have a 14 year old friend staying with people in Ramallah who has been travelling back and forth to Jerusalem visiting her mother who has been working in Nablus. She says nothing about her life in Ramallah has changed.

[aquart]

62. Oh, good freaking lord. Get out a map.

I just gotta see what you think "Palestine" is.

[anndash]

2. Agree

http://www.workers.org/2009/world/fist_gaza_0115/

"The massacre of at least 225 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip by the Zionist military, using U.S.-supplied F-16s and Apache attack helicopters, is the latest in a long line of crimes against humanity committed by Israel.

After having committed this atrocious, genocidal act, the government in Israel continues to posture, saying they are resolved to continue. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said, “Israel is now seeking to wipe out the terrorism which is trying to undermine the whole area. We will not hesitate to strike anywhere where we are attacked.” For good measure, Olmert claims, “The instructions that we have given to our forces are to refrain from inflicting injury and harm on the innocent.”

Any person with a mere inkling of what has transpired in Palestine, and specifically the Gaza Strip, this past year would find Olmert’s statements to be at the least contradictory and/or cynical. These are cold words from a pathological bigot, whose government would like nothing more than to forcibly remove or completely wipe out the Palestinian people.

The creation of the Gaza Strip is no different than the ghettos created by Nazi Germany, the Bantustans in South Africa or the forced removal and relocation of Indigenous people in North America.

Gaza has been made a virtual prison, with no freedom of movement and where the Israeli government cuts off access to vital resources, including food, fuel and medical supplies.

The raining down of 100 tons of bombs exacerbates the inherent problems of the Gaza Strip, created by the conditions imposed by Israel upon the people, leaving rampant destruction, death and injuries.

The daily conditions of life in Palestine for the Palestinian are those of poverty, degradation and physical violence—from the degrading checkpoints that Palestinians have to pass through, where they are humiliated, beaten and denied emergency access to medicine, to the incursions by Israeli military and police into Palestinian areas. The situation is one of severe oppression and repression designed to crush the spirit of a people demanding freedom.

The movement in the U.S. has to raise the struggle of the Palestinian people to the level of importance that it demands, to support the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to support them in their fight for freedom and one secular Palestine.

The anti-war movement must immediately mobilize and demand that these attacks stop, that the blockade of the Gaza Strip be lifted and that the U.S. cease giving military and monetary aid to the terrorist government of Israel."

[notesdev]

3. The people of Gaza chose this state of affairs

They elected Hamas on a war platform, overwhelmingly. They got the war they wanted. Pretty disingenuous to cry foul now.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. Actually, what you've said is entirely untrue.

Hamas was elected on an anti-corruption platform.

Making dumb statements like that just won't fly here.

[elleng]

5. I agree.

but saying 'dumb' is probably provocative (not to me, but to others.)

[Violet_Crumble]

80. I think it's pretty dumb when they come down here from GD and display their total ignorance...

Goddam, I wish they'd all bugger off back to GD and let this forum get back to normal coz I've read some incredibly ignorant crap including for example this nonsense about Hamas being elected on a war platform, and the walk away from the darkness of zionism one I just saw in another thread...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. However they did not get the majority of the votes and subsequently got pretty martial about things

[texshelters]

54. Agreed

They were also elected to take money that was stolen in the past and rebuild schools and infrastructure.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Mudoria]

6. Agreed..

I didn't see the UN or FIST (excuse me while I chuckle) demanding that Hamas stop rockets from being indiscriminately firing them into Israel. Both sides have a share of the blame for this but you would never know it from some of the sources being quoted here.

[Recursion]

11. Yes you do

The UN has demanded Hamas stop launching rockets into Israel. For years now.

[notesdev]

12. Prove it

UN demands are exclusively targeted at Israel. Go find me a UN demand that Hamas stop firing rockets.

This has been going on day after day, week after week, month after month, and the UN has been totally silent on the matter. They ONLY demand a stop to the violence when Israel retaliates.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. Actually the UNSC called for all violence and attacks to cease

and I do not think it was only this one time. However the calls are carefully couched so as not to blame any one side or to differentiate between what either party is doing. Typical diplomatic double talk.

[notesdev]

16. Right, and it ONLY happens when Israel acts

The UN is obviously perfectly content to keep silent when Hamas is firing rockets at Israelis. This has been going on long enough that the pattern is unmistakable.

Easily verified, too. Google "UN demands" +hamas +rockets. You can find the US demanding that Hamas stop firing rockets (among the hundreds of UN condemnations of Israeli retaliation), but not the UN.

[Recursion]

17. Ooh.. 61/25 has two contiguous birds with one stone

Emphasizing the importance of the safety and well-being of all civilians in the whole Middle East region, and condemning all acts of violence and terror against civilians on both sides, including the suicide bombings, the extrajudicial executions and the excessive use of force,

Noting the Israeli withdrawal from within the Gaza Strip and parts of the northern West Bank and the importance of the dismantlement of the settlements therein as a step towards the implementation of the road map

Not only demanding the Palestinians stop firing rockets, admitting that Israel has made an as-yet unrequited step towards peace.

[AnOhioan]

9. Patently false

Hamas was elected to power in Gaza because of Fatah corruption. What has transpired since then does not change that fact. Your insinuation that the people of Gaza 'wanted' to be bombed and possibly run over by ground forces is absurd.

They want conflict no more than the average Israeli citizen. It is those in power on both sides that are the guilty parties.

Should the Hamas missile attacks stop? Yes. Should the Israeli gov't policy of large scale airstrikes into a densely populated area stop? Yes.

Will the region ever see a true peace? Highly unlikely.

[subsuelo]

15. So the murdered Palestinian children deserved it?

[texshelters]

55. Yes, cause they were born in Gaza

If they didn't want to die, they wouldn't have been born in Gaza.

The people that excuse the murder of anyone, including Palestinians, makes me sick. That includes Hamas Rockets killing one person as well.

Peace,
Tex shelters

[LeftishBrit]

19. They elected Hamas. But not overwhelmingly.

For the rest, would you support someone saying:

The Americans elected Bush on a war platform... They got the war they wanted. Pretty disingenuous to cry foul now.


I hate Hamas' guts, but it's a slippery slope when we start assuming that ALL of a country/group are warmongers because they elected a warmongering government.

[NaturalHigh]

24. And now when Israel retaliates for the daily Hamas rocket attacks...

they claim to be the victims. Yes, the people of Gaza chose this state of affairs, and they're acting out the parts they planned all along.

[subsuelo]

31. It's like saying the Native Americans 'chose' to be wiped out

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Please don't get derailed. PROGRESSIVE PALESTINIANS who are our natural partners for peace

consider this a war crime.

What do we as western progressives do with that?

[NaturalHigh]

21. "What do we as western progressives do with that?"

Well, I for one would respectfully disagree with them and remind them that every country has the right to self-defense. If they really want peace, they should work to get their countrymen to stop shooting rockets into Israel and killing Israeli citizens.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. Every country does have a right to self-defense. Even Palestinians.

I don't think they ever got the memo that everyone in the world is allowed to defend themselves except them.

I suspect this really sticks in Israel's craw at a certain psychological level.

[oberliner]

25. Do you condemn the Hamas rocket attacks against Israel that preceded this attack? nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. You know what I think.

I don't think those attacks are effective resistance. I think they should be scrapped in favor of nonviolent resistance, which shines the light on the true agressor in this situation.

But everyone here knows I think Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against Israel's 40+ year violent onslaught of dispossession and colonization. I believe that if someone came to your home, and committed those crimes against you, you would similarly have the right to any means to defend yourself.

I make a distinction between what Palestinians have a moral right to, and what they SHOULD do.

I do not believe Palestinians are required to go like lambs to the slaughter in order to satisfy Israel's colonial gluttony.

I speak for no one but myself in saying that.

[backwoodsbob]

35. not much blame for this stuff

http://www.cctv.com/english/20081222/101204.shtml

Gaza truce recedes as rockets hit Israel


http://jta.org/news/article/2008/12/12/1001496/two-rockets-hit-israel

Two rockets launched from the Gaza Strip hit open space in Israel a week before a truce is set to expire.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6504362

Israel's top security official warned Sunday that Gaza militants can hit more Israeli cities with longer-range rockets, on a day when rockets exploded in border towns and a coastal city after an Israel-Hamas truce expired.

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/140922/Gaza-rockets-hit-Israel-after-short-lull

Gaza rockets hit Israel after short lull

Didn't see many human rights organizations protesting this

[ProgressiveMuslim]

98. There was "shock" all around, huh?

[NaturalHigh]

26. How do the daily rocket attacks on Israel fit into the self-defense scheme?

How about the occasional suicide bombers thrown in for good measure? Is it self-defense to kill a bunch of people shopping in a mall or eating a pizza?

Considering the acts of terrorism that have been perpetrated on Israel, over and over, how could anyone not expect Israel to react?

[Vegasaurus]

27. No, this poster has defended violent resistance numerous times

The rockets, mortars, suicide bombings, border crossing bombings (of their own food and supplies), any other possible attempt at terrorism, is considered OK by the pro-Palestinians.

And Israel is never alllowed to respond.

Remember, there was NO WALL, few to no checkpoints, freedom of movement before Intifadas.

There was NO OCCUPATION by Israel before 1967.

And there has ALWAYS been violence and terrorism, perpetrated by Palestinian Arabs towards the JEWS OF ISRAEL!

They have brought on their own misery, time and time again.

[azurnoir]

32. You madam are a liar

you have been makeing these charges in an attemp to see that poster Tomb Stoned for a year and have been quite frustrated in your odious efforts but the most telling is this statement from you

Vegasaurus (1000+ posts) Sun Dec-28-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. When Arab terrorists love their children more than killing Israelis/Jews

[Vegasaurus]

36. Fact:Arab terrorists don't care about their children as much as killing Israelis

Their actions prove as much, since they refuse to stop their terrorism, even as the youngest and most innocent civilians are put at risk by the murderous thugs of Hamas.

Even when they were warned that there would FINALLY be an Israeli response to the rockets (a bit late, I might add), and had been warned for weeks to stop them or risk a response, the militants continued.

More important to kill Israelis than to protect their own children. Disgraceful and disgusting.

I stand by that statement, and by the prior one.

I am shocked by the protection and defense of terrorists on this board.

[azurnoir]

37. Are you calling PM a terrorist?

you have also made this charge against me on occasion.

[Vegasaurus]

38. Are you mentally impaired or just reading challenged?

I am beginning to wonder.

I have never called ANYONE on the board a terrorist.

I have said there are terrorist sympathizers here(i.e. those who believe that Palestinians have a right to "defend themselves" using violent resistance, which is terrorism by another name), those who want to negotiate with terrorists, and those who excuse the horrific human rights abuses in the Arab/Muslim countries.

Stop dogging me around and attributing opinions to me which I do not hold.

I am not trying to get anyone banned, and please stop your efforts in getting me banned, by using inflammatory and untrue remarks about me.

Thank you.

[azurnoir]

39. I do not want you banned really

in fact some of what I consider your worst comment I do not alert for a reason, as to my question charging that someone is a terrorist supporter is a left handed way of calling them a terrorist who else would support terrorists and supporting terrorists is also a Tomb Stoneable offense

I am shocked by the protection and defense of terrorists on this board.

No one has defended Hamas here

[Vegasaurus]

41. I believe every one of those posts supporting Hamas has been removed by the mods

but they have been here.

I don't have the time or patience to look for them, but many people say Hamas was democratically elected, should be given a chance to govern (despite the fact that Gazans have few civil rights and there is no democracy there at all, just rule by the gun).

Or that Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.

I know you have seen those.

But I honestly am not calling anyone here a terrorist, despite it being personally troubling that there are many people who seem be support those who are terrorists.

[Violet_Crumble]

82. Let me get this straight. You think folk like Oberliner and Leftishbrit are terrorist sympathisers?

I have said there are terrorist sympathizers here(i.e. those who believe that Palestinians have a right to "defend themselves" using violent resistance, which is terrorism by another name), those who want to negotiate with terrorists, and those who excuse the horrific human rights abuses in the Arab/Muslim countries.

Forgive me for pointing out the bleeding obvious, but yr a fucking moron of the highest order. You float around in bot-mode calling me amongst others terrorist sympathisers, antisemites, and excusers of human rights abuses in Arab/Muslim countries, and then when anyone picks you up on yr blatant double standards (no frothing at the mouth about Israeli terrorists from you, and you only care about equal rights for women and human rights abuses when it comes to Arab/Muslim countries) you trot out bot-cue #105 - 'Why are you following me around trying to get me banned?'

I'm sick and tired of seeing you constantly go after PM and being repeatedly dishonest about what she's said. It's like yr obsessed with her or something and it's really pathetic. I'd ask you how old you are, but I have no faith that you can answer a single question put to you with any degree of honesty, so I won't bother...

Oh, and knock off the whinyarse crap about folk who disagree with you wanting to see you banned. Not when you had that dummy-spit a while back and gave me a chuckle by telling me you want to see me banned.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

96. I believe that phrase that you quote is actually a quote from Golda Meir

and not without some merit.

Then again its late and the sake was good, so I may be all wet.

[NaturalHigh]

34. I've noticed that.

It's galling to see defense of terrorism on a "progressive" message board.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. Not interested in rehashing old arguements with newbies. Sorry. nt

[NaturalHigh]

33. LOL...

Oh sorry, oh great progressive one. Yeah, I'm a newbie. I've only been here four years. Frankly, I don't care if you discuss anything with me or not. It's obvious you only care about one side of this equation and don't care how many people on the Israeli side of the border are killed or maimed. Your defense of terrorists is galling, but not really surprising.

[azurnoir]

40. Was that an antiMuslim slur?

Your defense of terrorists is galling, but not really surprising.
As to your being a newbie your are to this forum as you do not post here often.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

67. No worries. Israel murders 5,000 since 2000, with 1,000 of them being kids.

and I'm the terrorist supporter.

OK.

[NaturalHigh]

100. Was that a serious question?

No, there was no anti-Muslim slur in my post.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

65. Not a time I feel like hashing it out again. Whatever.

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Gosh, you need to put that mirror yr gazing into down and step away...

I don't give a fuck how long you've been at DU, but you've been in the I/P forum less than five nanoseconds in the great measure of DU time and from yr posts it's very evident you don't care about how many people on the Palestinian side of the border are maimed or killed. PM doesn't defend terrorists, and it would really make you look less ridiculous if you took the time to actually read people's posts instead of blindly agreeing with a poster renowned for both their dishonesty and hatred of Palestinians...

Oops, guess saying that will get the standard kneejerk Yr A Terrorist Supporter! response from you or Veggie. Gawd, how do you folk manage to survive amongst so many terrorist supporters? ;)

[NaturalHigh]

101. Uh...ok.

No, I don't post here very often, because I know how burned one can get in these flamewars. As for the poster to whom you are referring, it really doesn't take more than "five nanoseconds in the great measure of DU time" to see where the poster's sympathies lie, or yours for that matter.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. Muslim progressives on a pracitical level have no influence or control

So what they think is not something that really matters today. Same with their associated NGOs.

You bill yourself as a progressive Muslim and I believe that your and others who are very sincere. However, until progressive Muslims have some impact no one will really care what they think or say. Its the same for progressives in the west. Until we got something going, we were nothing more than noisy fringe groups. The best example is the Greens in the EU. They have gone from the fringe to a serious party with influence. In the US we are not there yet, but we are growing.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

68. I warrant that a progressive Palestinian could well be the next president of Palestine.

Mustapha Barghouti.

Remember his name.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

74. That would be a good thing. Will he standup to Muslim and Arab nations that want to continue their

abuse of the Palestinian people?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

97. I'm curious as to how you see Arab countries "abusing" Palestinians.

Of course they have not supported the people of Palestine, by cutting their own deals with Israel.

Egypt has abused Palestine, but acceding to the wishes of teh US & Israel and keeping the Rafah border closed, of refusing to allow medical supplies to enter even during a massacre.

But beyond that, where to you see abuse?

To put forth a position that posits have the "Arab nations" share equal blame with Israel in the "abuse" of Palestine is patently absurd.

[GoesTo11]

20. Hamas members are Palestinians, so killing Hamas members = killing Palestinians

"The Israeli cabinet Sunday, Dec. 28, approved call-up orders for 6,500 reservists the day after Israel's devastating assault on hundreds of Hamas military sites in Gaza, in which 282 Palestinians, 90 percent in uniform, were killed."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. Its also homicide as well since they are also human

It is fair to differentiate between Gazans and Hamas. One is a political/military group with a public stance to eliminate Israel etc the other would seem to be more interested in survival. Remember also that Hamas did not win the popular vote and has busied itself wiping out the PA in Gaza.

[rundownman]

45. You'd think so, but truthfully

the people killing them most likely don't consider them human at all, probably more like cattle.

They're just 'not the same' as 'us'...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. The noble us versus the evil them is a common theme throughout history

But the Palestinians have a double burden. They are treated as disposable tools by the rest of the Arab and Muslim nations. Its a primary factor is how things got to where they are today.

[rundownman]

44. I'm sorry but your home is need for a jewish settler, maybe you could leave and go shoot yourself?

That'd be grrrrrrrrrrreat. mr. arab.

[oberliner]

46. There are no Jewish settlers in Gaza nt

[notesdev]

47. Ariel Sharon anticipated your insincere complaint

Which is why he had the IDF forcibly remove 10,000 Israeli citizens from Gaza in 2006.

Now it's proven that the presence of Jews was never necessary for Hamas to behave as bloodthirsty, genocidal savages.

[rundownman]

49. Give it time

After this campaign is over we'll see who is living in gaza. This can only be an attempt by israel to reoccupy gaza

Why doesn't Israel just totally give gaza and palestine their own country?



I think personally we need a STRONG international peacekeeping force to enter Israel and force the IDF to turn over certian weapons like planes and laser guided bombs as well as control of israel's nuclear program.

There should also be a "no fly zone" over and around gaza and certian parts of israel since israel continues to threaten its neighbors.

The israeli nation has proven it cannot act responsibly with american military equipment like jets and laser guided bombs, god forbid what they probably will try with Iran re: nuclear program.

An international peacekeeping force is needed IN israel, NOW.

[backwoodsbob]

50. hmmm

*After this campaign is over we'll see who is living in gaza. This can only be an attempt by israel to reoccupy gaza*


I don't know.Maybe it's an attempt to stop people from firing rockets at civilians?

[rundownman]

51. lol israel is trying to STOP genocide?

kassam, or "kitchen" rockets are homemade "bottle rockets" and haven't even killed a single israeli in the last month. They are as effective at hitting their targets as a bottle rocket is.

However Israel has killed 500 palestinian civilians and harmed/maimed/injured over a thousand as well as kept food from going to gaza for over 6 months now due to a blockade.

Of course those firing their firecrackers at Israel should be arrested and tried for "attempted murder"

Those attacking Gaza right now should be tried for crimes against humanity.

[backwoodsbob]

52. I love how people keep saying firecrackers

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. Indeed, Qassams are simple, not harmless

and are made from smuggled in material. The mortar shells and Grads are factory made and smuggled intact.

[rundownman]

58. Also, pictures from my understanding are not allowed on this forum (I/P)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. True.

I assume the mods will do something if you report it

[rundownman]

70. Maybe I should post pictures

of what Israel is doing to the palestinians right now? I mean lets post pictures and compare the effectiveness of the homemade "kitchen" rockets (kassam means kitchen) with that of laser guided multi million dollar bombs.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

75. Take it up with the mods

BobbyDem should not have.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. You need to learn a great deal more about ordnance before you write about the effects of Qassams

They are not firecrackers or bottle rockets.

[rundownman]

59. well...

they may not be firecrackers but they kill about as many people per year as firecrackers do.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. A Qassam in an open area in a crowd will kill and injure a dozen or more

Thats no firecracker.

That the Gazans can not get them on target reliably is not and indication that they are the equivalent of safe and sane fireworks.

[rundownman]

71. so?

A firecracker taped to your head will likely kill you too if its big enough.


lets speak about what is and does happen that is 1 israeli death = 500 arab deaths, thousands injured.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

73. So less than 1/5 ounce of gunpowder is equivalent to 20 pounds of high explosives?

You must have done great in great in any class with decimal points.:sarcasm:

Facts matter if you want to be part of an intelligent and reasoned discussion. You don't seem to recognize them, so let me go over a few important ones for you.

Deaths are just past 300 as of the last hour or so. Less than 1000 injured. There is no breakdown of Hamas vs Civilians, an important and relevant distinction that seems to elude you. Correct numbers and breakouts matter. Its not 500 KIA and 1000s WIA.

Hamas has been attacking with real lethal weapons. 10kg of HE is serious stuff, not fire crackers or bottle rockets. That Qassams are simple to manufacture does not make them crude or ineffective. The mortars and Grads are even more destructive. There have been a whole lot of them launched as well. When it comes to actual weapons and their explosive contents, accurate numbers matter here too.

Your fetish to only look after the end of the so called ceasefire tells the rest of us that you have no understanding of the history or the issues at hand. Israel has said for some time that they would no longer tolerate being attacked from Gaza which have been going hot and heavy every since Hamas took over Gaza. That Hamas only killed one person in Israel since the ceasefire was dissolved by Hamas is more a matter of luck, and its not from lack of trying. Other times they have been much more successful in attacking and killing/wounding people and random civilian targets. .

The bogus 1 to 500 ratio is not relevant, even if it was accurate

[rundownman]

76. Okay you are correct to an extent

The numbers are *estimated* to be somewhat lower, around 300 dead but they don't know for sure do they? The same is the case for injured.

I don't understand how 1 to 500 ration is not relevant?

so 1 israeli was killed, this is a HORRIBLE thing and the gaza police should hunt him down and send him to jail that is the proper response for one death.

Not a proper response would be to send in Israeli jets to bomb the hell out of the civilian populaiton.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

81. As others and I have told you....

The event horizon for this did not start with the end of the ceasefire. The attacks have been going on for years. That is a critical piece of the dynamic you do not seem to grasp. There have been thousands of rockets fired and Hamas refused to do anything about it. After the ceasefire ended Hamas increased the number of attacks and used more of the longer range Grads. This was well after Israel said that the attacks were intolerable and they would stop them if Hamas did not. Again, all of this was outside the interval since the ceasefire expired. That is why your fixation on only one Israeli death is irrelevant...its the wrong time frame for starters.

Its clear that Hamas knew that Israel was going to strike. Even with that knowledge, Hamas got caught unawares and the IAF performed a very effective multilevel strike on them which is still continuing. About 300 people confirmed dead, the split between Hamas and civilian still TBD. However we do know that a number of high and mid level Hamas leaders are now out of action.

Hamas is the police and also the executor of the rocket and mortar attacks, which are prima facie classic war crimes. Theoretically persons in the Hamas government could be prosecuted for it if they could be found. However many of them are now dead and the records destroyed due to the recent air strikes. Some consider that a more effective response than the ICC, YMMV.

Per Palestinian and Israeli reports the air strikes have been targeted on Hamas targets, which is inherently legitimate (from a rules of war perspective). Yes there have been civilian casualties, though the amount is unknown at this time. There has not been indiscriminate bombing of civilians or carpet bombing of cities. In fact an argument could be made that Hamas is at fault (rules of war perspective) by embedding their activities including weapons storage in civilian areas.

In summary the IAF is not indiscriminately bombing the hell out of the civilian population. So says the a Palestinian news source, not just the Israelis. The problem has gone on for much longer than the expiration of the ceasefire and everyone knew that Israel was going to strike, especially once Hamas ratcheted thing up. The strike caught Hamas looking and has done some serious damage to it. In the process there were civilian casualties. The will be an argument whether the civilians impact was excessive and how much responsibility that Hamas will bear for that since they embedded themselves in civilian areas.

Does that help?

[cali]

66. yowzer. what a silly post.

quite simply what you're suggesting is not only impractical but even more illegal than what the Israelis are doing.

And would it was so simple as simple little minds seem to think.

[rundownman]

69. simple

Well my simple little mind can't grasp what you're trying to say because of your grammar errors.


In any event israel is violating UN resolutions.

[hack89]

72. You are kidding, aren't you?

there is no mythical UN army to invade and conquer Israel. Without the US military, it is a pipe dream. And just how do you stop Israel from using those nukes? I think you need to think this through a little more.

[rundownman]

79. not yet anyway

there's not yet a UN military force of course that could enter israel for peacekeeping operations.

The US military may be necessary to use this is true, but I think Israel would WANT the majority of incoming peacekeepers to be from an ally.

With this in mind, a multinational force made up of a large amount of american troops, why would Israel use the nuclear weapons.. and who exactly would they use the nuclear weapons on?

I mean they surely aren't going to nuke every country involved in the multinational force? so who is left, are they going to nuke the UN headquarters located in America, their largest ally?

[hack89]

99. And why would Israel want to surrender it's sovereignty?

what country would ever willingly submit to such humiliation?

You are advocating the conquest of Israel by the UN - of course Israel will fight.

[oberliner]

77. Is there such a thing as a war or conflict without war crimes? nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

78. Probably not in the post WWII era

[pelsar]

87. i would also add...

disproportionate force...i could never figure out what that actually means.....if one is going to war and the intention is to "win it"...than i believe its practical to use more force than the adversary.

just a side note:
after israel left gaza and the kassam started falling on sederot, israel made some sonic booms over gaza as a warning....that was declared a war crime and disproportionate force

when israel use limited artillery....same reaction

when used missiles from helicopters on specific targets..same reaction

etc etc etc

_______

(i did read one article by juan cole in which he stated israel should use SWAT teams to take out the kassams...I though that was rather amusing myself, for those who dont understand why..SWAT teams only work in a peaceful environment and its civilian manner involving a few criminals in a single location)

there have been a few brave posters here who have in fact stated clearly that they do not have a solution for israel in terms of defending itself....not that helps the israelis living under two years of kassams, but at least they do admit it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

89. Whenever somebody uses the war crimes meme, I ask them to document the violation

Never found one who could. I can't either, since its an obscure field and the rules and precedents all over the place. However, until they do their homework it puts them on the defensive. IA friend is a retired JAG who actually knows the ins and outs of the field. He reads the claims in the media and by NGOs and just laughs. Think back to all the claims about the most recent Lebanon fracas. Despite all the claims made at the time *nothing* has been filed.

Juan Cole is an idiot when it comes to military technology, though good in other areas.. I've sent him corrections for some time but he remains clueless. The geek in me keeps trying to educate him and others, its a thankless task.

Sonic booms can be used as a weapon if done right, not just a warning. No indication that it is a war crime of any type.

[Violet_Crumble]

91. But didn't you just say a bit further up that rocket attacks are war crimes?

Isn't it up to tribunals like the international courts set up for that purpose to make the call, not some ex-JAG who being an American military legal type would have their own biases and who I'd be more inclined to laugh at than reputable NGOs like Amnesty International and HRW?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

92. Direct attacks on civilians with no valid military purpose are a clear violation of the rules of war

the citation for that is not hard to find. More importantly there are no mitigation or counter claims available to Hamas for its actions. It has openly admitted to it being a terror campaign.

The real issue is that there are so many conflicts in the existing documents. For example take the classic ammo depot next to the hospital. The depot gets blown up via an air strike and the hospital is also destroyed. Is it a war crime? The old answer was "it depends on who wins the war", since they would hold the trials. Today its more complicated since the days of total occupation like WWII are gone. You can go after one side for the use of human shields, you can go after the other side for not taking enough care to avoid collateral damage. The real issue would be intent more than effect. Most likely nothing would happen and people would whine about it endlessly on websites. Short of the total defeat of one side war crimes are really a dead horse that some love to flagellate.

Tom has real ICC experience, which is quite rare. He still does some consulting. For me the bottom line is that AI & HRW are pursuing agendas and have mixed reputations, while Tom is mostly pursuing trout these days.

[Violet_Crumble]

93. And who gets to decide if it's valid or not?

My guess is it wouldn't be yr nor yr JAG friend, but an international tribunal, right? In my opinion, both Israel and Palestinian groups have violated the rules of war when it comes to the I/P conflict. It's the same way I formed my opinion that Indonesia committed war crimes against the East Timorese even though AFAIK those who committed those crimes still walk free...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

94. Probably no one since like just about every conflict since WWII, there will be no charges filed

That some of the Balkans stuff made it to the ICC still astounds me.

There may be some grandstanding by local prosecutors in Europe, but the EU is stomping down on that kind of thing.

While its just my opinion, Hamas and Hezbollah are more open to those kinds of charges than a recognized sovereign state, based on recent actions, mostly in the Balkans. Still, I expect nothing to come of it against either side.

[Violet_Crumble]

95. We agree on that...

I think there was an attempt to establish some sort of war crimes tribunal after East Timor gained its independence, but it didn't go far as the East Timorese leadership decided it was better when it came to the healing process and probably more importantly their rather fragile relationship with Indonesia, not to go through with it. When it comes to the I/P conflict, I also don't believe there'll be any war crime charges at any point. At the end of a conflict like that one, it's going to be mutual acknowledgement of past wrongdoing that will do far more good...

[notesdev]

83. There's actually a difference

between conducting war and committing war crimes.

But since so few people refer to the original text which spells out what is and isn't a war crime, and every side in every war routinely accuses the other of war crimes, the meaning of the term has all but evaporated.

[oberliner]

84. But has there been a conflict in modern history where war crimes were not committed? nt

[notesdev]

86. Well, you can't prove a negative

But I'd guess there have been a few. The Sino-Indian War of 1962 comes to mind as one that was fought "by the book".

[ProgressiveProfessor]

90. There are also levels of involvement or crime as well

Intentionally shooting a civilian is a war crime. But the sporadic occurrence does not make that side war criminals. Its an individual act and should be handled as such. Concentration camps are a government act and that does make that side war criminals. The gray area is where proscribed activities move from individual acts to policy, and its not ever going to be clear.