Hamas accuses PA, Egypt of collusion

[Lithos]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1230111722466

Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip admitted Saturday that they were caught by surprise by the massive IDF operation in the Gaza Strip and accused the Palestinian Authority and Egypt of "collusion" with Israel.

The officials also expressed deep disappointment over the failure of the Arab and Islamic world to exert pressure on Israel to halt the operation. Until the last minute, Hamas was convinced that the threats to launch an IDF operation were mere rhetoric in the context of the upcoming election campaign in Israel.

--snip--

Interesting in that it was Hamas who over calculated this time.

[chucktaylor]

1. They don't understand they are the sockpuppet of the Arab world?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. They sure seem to be

People are starving but the stream of weapons being shot at Israel never seems to decrease. You would think that the supporters of the Palestinians (vice Hamas) would send food before weapons.

[chucktaylor]

6. The MSM doesn't know Gaza has a border with Egypt.

They think all Gaza will starve if Israel doesn't feed them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. That border is pretty much sealed

Except of course for the tunnels that are tolerated by both Egypt and Hamas. I did see today that Egypt was taking in wounded but was not going to allow refugees.

The last time the border was opened, the Gazans were not well behaved (according to the nearby Egyptians). I would not expect it to be reopened any time soon.

Still wondering how all the material to make Qassams and the fully assembled Grads are getting to Hamas. Food and cooking gas would make a lot more sense.

[Statistical]

16. Wait where is the outrage?

Demand Egypt open the border. Now!

Palestinians only want access to medical care, freedom to travel, ability to educate their kids.
Egypt has turned Gaza into a stinking prison.

(Note everything I have heard about Isreal "doing" to the West Bank).

West Bank has 2 borders:
1) Israel - country Hamas has sworn an oath to wipe off the earth
2) Egypt - country Hamas has made no threats against

Why should Israel ever open the border?
Why not just have Egypt open theirs.

Food, trade, travel, airports, education. Palestinians can get everything there.
Hell Egypt could even make power links and generate and sell power to Palestinians.

Why don't they do that? Anyone know?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. There is the treaty between Egypt and Israel that controls much of that

Its late and I don't have the information handy at the moment. Its also clear that Egypt has not interest in helping Gaza. That is not new, they never did when they controlled it. IIRC there was some discussion a while back about a power plant being built in Egypt to support Gaza, but I have no clue if it went forward or not.

[azurnoir]

18. Ah yeah except

Egypt slams Israeli raids on Gaza, opens border crossing

CAIRO (AFP) – Egypt condemned Israel's Saturday air raids on Gaza that killed at least 155 Palestinians, opening its Rafah border crossing with the territory to allow the wounded through for medical treatment.

"Egypt condemns the Israeli military aggression on the Gaza Strip and blames Israel, as an occupying force, for the victims and the wounded," President Hosni Mubarak said in a statement.

He gave instructions for the Rafah terminal -- the only one bypassing Israel -- to be opened so that the wounded could be treated in Egyptian hospitals.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081227/wl_mideast_afp/mid...

[chucktaylor]

26. Amazing, they have such an expansive border with Gaza, but only 1 crossing. What is the cost

Of opening another crossing?

[azurnoir]

29. Expansive border do tell

how expansive 20 miles 50 miles 100 miles? BTW there is another crossing but Israel controls that one

[chucktaylor]

32. How far apart do openings have to be? Egypt could open the entire border

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. There are treaty issues here

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL34346.pdf is a decent description of *some* of the border issues.

The border is 12 klicks/7.4 miles long. The only viable roads at this point are via Rafah.

[azurnoir]

38. Thank you

[azurnoir]

37. LOL pleaseopen the entire border

is America border with Canada entirely open, is any countries why do you apply a double standard to Egypt?

[MADem]

35. They are a sovereign nation. They have the right to vet who comes across their border into their

nation, after all. No one has a "right" to cross, and limiting access points is one way to keep troublemakers out. And there are troublemakers in Gaza.

They've opened their border before. It just never gets much press.

[Statistical]

5. It is sad.

No major Arab state want the situation resolved EVER. PERIOD.

The Palestinians are simply the throw away canon fodder on the front line.

They serve two purposes:
1) to constantly keep Israel off balance
2) to prevent Arabs in their own country from wondering why they have no rights, no democracy, no economy. "Hell it could always be worse.... I could be a Palestinian".

The fact that decades later they don't understand this and are constantly "surprised" when the Arab powers do nothing is ... sad.

Like the guy playing Poker who use suspect doesn't quite understand the rules.

[Adsos Letter]

2. I posted an article from Haaretz...

which stated that Israel had informed Egypt of their intentions, although it did not say how much of the plan was revealed to Mubarak.

[Lithos]

3. The JPost article

Also doesn't mention the level at which Hamas and Egypt were in discussion. Even so, it also is still possible that, as you said, not all details were released, that the information was not dessiminated downward either at all or in time, or that Egypt withheld the information from Hamas.

L-

[Adsos Letter]

7. Indeed...

I sure wish I had the answer to the situation, or could make all of the interested parties actively seek a solution that was in everyone's best interests.

I've lived 53 years, and I am sick and tired of seeing all of the disgusting things people do to each other...on any side.

[Lithos]

13. The answers are simple

The politics are not.

L-

[pelsar]

12. the political end...

the consensus amongst the various "experts" on israeli TV is that hamas will ask for a cease fire via egypt (obviously not directly)....when they've "had enough"

israel it seems is plan on rectifying at least one past mistake...(lebanon II). They've bombed mosques that were determined to hold weapons (avoided the mosques in Lebanon II).

[Lithos]

14. They are definitely fighting the last war

And seem to be avoiding much of what went wrong in Lebanon II.


L-

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. That makes sense

I could see what (Gov and security buildings) but not when. Many would not expect Israel to attack during the Sabbath in the middle of Hanukkah

[pelsar]

8. egypt has reenforced its border....

though they are taking some gazan wounded, at the sametime they have reenforced their border to keep any potential refugees from entering egypt (israeli tv dec 27)

[Alamuti Lotus]

10. fucking cowards..

well, they could send the army north to stop this, but no -- they help it along! Mubarak and everybody who is on his payroll should be shot into space....

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Why would you expect Egypt to do that?

Egypt has always treated Gaza as second class or worse, even when they controlled it. Same with the other Arab and Muslim nations which send arms but not food. I doubt that even Hezbollah will do anything except shout slogans for the media.

Call me a pessimist, but it sure looks like Gaza is on its own. No one is coming to its aid. The PA has said its ready to takeover once Hamas capitulates, which may be the desired end state for Israel and the Arab countries.

Doesn't make it right, but it does seem the most probable outcome.

[azurnoir]

20. Is that so Pelsar?

Egypt recalls ambassador after "murder" in Gaza, Rafa border crossing opened
by AFP
Saturday Dec 27th, 2008 11:53 AM

Egyptian riot police stand guard as protestors shout slogans during a demonstration in front of the journalists' syndicate in Cairo against the Israeli bombardment on the Gaza Strip. Egypt condemned as "murder" Israel's Saturday air raids on Gaza that killed at least 205 Palestinians, opening its Rafah border crossing with the territory to allow the wounded through for treatment.
(AFP/Khaled Desouki)

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/12/27/18556562.php?show_comments=1

Egypt slams Israeli raids on Gaza, opens border crossing

CAIRO (AFP) – Egypt condemned Israel's Saturday air raids on Gaza that killed at least 155 Palestinians, opening its Rafah border crossing with the territory to allow the wounded through for medical treatment.

"Egypt condemns the Israeli military aggression on the Gaza Strip and blames Israel, as an occupying force, for the victims and the wounded," President Hosni Mubarak said in a statement.

He gave instructions for the Rafah terminal -- the only one bypassing Israel -- to be opened so that the wounded could be treated in Egyptian hospitals.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081227/wl_mideast_afp/mid...

but its only a "few" wounded PM posted something earlier today that stated Egypt had emptied beds in 2 hospitals

[pelsar]

22. ??????

i just passed on what was said on israeli TV, as i noted...if you contest what channel 10 on israeli TV has mentioned I suggest you take it up with them....

[pelsar]

42. seems hamas doesnt want ANY to cross into egypt...

http://africa.reuters.com/top/news/usnJOE4BR01X.html


We are waiting for the wounded Palestinians to cross. They are not being allowed to cross," he told reporters. Asked who was to blame, he said: "Ask the party in control on the ground in Gaza."

Hamas has been in control in the Gaza Strip since June 2007.

now this will really be hard to blame israel, but i do have confidence in your ability to find a way.....(in case your speculating that perhaps the IDF has entered with ground forces...so far the answer is no)

[GoesTo11]

11. Boo hoo hoo.

Everyone hates poor Hamas (except many on DU). The PA? Yasser Arafat's organization thinks they're too nutty. Egypt thinks they're just destructive. Listen closely to what the rest of the Arab world says (they'll have to say something against Israel, but then sort of let it be known that they approve).

You know who doesn't hate Hamas? Their masters in Iran.

[bemildred]

19. Sigh. Lot's of "unknown unknowns" coming to light here.

I don't know whether to think they ("Hamas officials") are stupid (Israel? Attack us? With massive force? When did that ever happen before?) or lying. I know, could be both.

[azurnoir]

21. didn't you post something earlier today that stated

Israel had been planning this attack for 6 months? I think Hamas knew what was coming and that nothing would stop it.

[pelsar]

23. now thats a novel excuse....to blame israel

"nothing would stop it"...so hamas just kept on shooting missiles at israelis.....and they had no affect on the israeli govt policy....

sounds like the "hamas defense"....if you dont open the borders we'll shoot...and if they are open we'll shoot...and if you attack then its because you planned it and just want to eliminate the Palestinians....
___

its getting kind of thin the ways to blame israel.....but the imagination never ceases

news flash: israel has plans on attacking egypt, jordan, syrian, lebanon, iran etc.....guess according to you, all those countries better get ready since israel is going to attack (the plans are there....)

[azurnoir]

25. I am so glad you spoke up

I was trying to be polite to bemildred this is the article I was speaking of

Disinformation, secrecy and lies: How the Gaza offensive came about

Long-term preparation, careful gathering of information, secret discussions, operational deception and the misleading of the public - all these stood behind the Israel Defense Forces "Cast Lead" operation against Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip, which began Saturday morning.

The disinformation effort, according to defense officials, took Hamas by surprise and served to significantly increase the number of its casualties in the strike.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html

[bemildred]

24. Yes, and Yes.

Though I would concur with Pelsar that "nothing would stop it" is going too far. Nevertheless, it's clear enough that it was no spur of the moment thing. So it's reasonable to think that the public comments being made by both sides are not motivated by a desire to make the truth known.

The motivations at work look very messy and I don't think I want to try to untangle them now. In any case that might be wrong because one cannot assume "leaders" on either side are in their right minds, let alone informed and intelligent and motivated to think hard.

[bemildred]

27. Oh yeah, and this definitely falls under: "What good are enemies if you can't blame stuff on them."

Hamas version of it.

[azurnoir]

28. I think everybodies version of it n/t

[Alamuti Lotus]

33. Stupid is a safe bet..

The urge to appear "respectable" has led for some ridiculous posturing from Hamas high officials, particularly relating to Fatah and the clown princes that surround them. They're either blind and naive beyond belief, or just desperate for approval (funding) from people they should probably be going after.. either way, it has led them here.

[IndianaGreen]

31. You are all welcome to overthrow the corrupt Egyptian government

One of the biggest human rights abusers in North Africa.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. The least corrupt regime in the region is Israel

Scary isn't it.

[bemildred]

39. Yeah, one man's "corruption" is another man's "family values". nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. Israel just bombed the crossing at Rafah. Guess that help from Qatar will never get in now.

Who's colluding?

LOL!

[bemildred]

41. I guess that's one way to open up the borders.

LOL indeed.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

45. Al Jazeera reporter interrupts Egyptian talking head, who claimed Egypt could get

supplies in becuase it was "too dangerous."

She basically said, what are you talking about? There was no military activity there.

Well, there is now. Guess those supplies will remain in Egypt.

Patooey on all of them.

[bemildred]

48. Yeah, a sorry lot.

I am wondering:

1.) Were there Hamas people in fact working to bring about this Israeli reaction? I would think so, but you can't be sure. Provoking violent reactions is bread-and-butter resistance strategy, and it is hard to see what else one could hope to accomplish with the rockets. This story says Hamas leaders went into hiding a week ago. Of course, that's when the "cease fire" ended. A good summary of events BTW.

2.) Is one of the motivations of the IDF here to "erase the stain" of the failure in the Second Lebanon War and "restore deterrence"? I would think so too. A foolish person might think it is an easier and weaker target. Some of the blather I posted yesterday runs in that direction.

And a comment:

Keep an eye on the Northern border if the IDF gets itself well-ensnarled in Gaza.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. What's being said in the Arabic press

from my husband's translation indicates Hamas was indeed surprised, and that the buildings were not emptied.

According to arabic press, Egypt passed along Israel's assurances.

[bemildred]

52. I've seen that said.

The Israeli press was going on at length about the lengthy preparations, how they achieved surprise, so it isn't just the Arab press. The old shock-and-awe razzle-dazzle. But knowing the timing and place and means to be employed is a different thing from knowing an attack is coming soon and you better get your head down. I expect the dead police officers were quite surprised.

I remember in the 60s "student leaders" inciting riots and police over-reactions and then stepping back to watch the carnage. The allies faked Hitler out pretty well when they invaded Normandy, but Hitler did know they were coming.

[oberliner]

43. What is your source for that information?

I mean about Israel bombing the Rafah crossing.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

44. Watched it live on Al-Jazeera.

Maan news has it as a ticker on the top of the site. Story in print to follow.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

46. Also saw footage of Jordanian legislators burning Israeli flag in the legislative hall.

How fucking stupid is Israel.

Truly, there will never, ever be peace in this region.

Never.

[Vegasaurus]

51. Nope, not as long as Arab terrorists love killing Israelis/Jews more than their own children

How stupid could they be.

Stop the rockets and terrorism and they could live freely and well.

Moronic and insane.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

47. From Yemen: Crowds protesting as far as the eye can see.

Unbelievable!

[oberliner]

49. Thanks - Ynet has a reference to the Al-Jazeera report now as well

Report: IAF strikes Palestinian side of Rafah crossing

Al-Jazeera network reported that Israel Air Force jets attacked the Palestinian side of the Rafah crossing.

So far, no injuries were reported in the attack. (Roee Nahmias)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3645842,00.html