Barak approves transfer of NIS 100 million to Gaza banks

[bemildred]

Defense Minister Ehud Barak agreed on Wednesday to transfer NIS 100 million ($25 million) to Gaza from banks in the West Bank. The transfer is expected to take place in the next few days.

Barak's decision came after special appeals to him from both the Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad and the Bank of Israel Governor Stanley Fischer to help ease the cash shortages in Gaza.

Israel has not allowed money to enter Gaza since October, causing a cash crunch in local banks. Its refusal to let Palestinian banks send money to their Gaza branches is a part of a larger blockade imposed on the territory in response to Palestinian militants' rocket attacks from Gaza. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

Palestinian officials say Gaza's banks have only one-fifth of what they need to pay civil service wages.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1045378.html

[sam sarrha]

1. how about telling Israel we'll cut off all aid if they dont quit F'n with the Palestinians

[Kurska]

2. Maybe

1. Because most of the American public do not think israel is "F'n with the Palestinians"?
2. And most Americans support aid to our ally israel?

We are a democracy after all, majority opinion ruling and all that jazz?

[sam sarrha]

3. i was reading how they lock down the communities, one guy said it took him 6 hrs to travel

thru checkpoints that used to take 10 minutes, curfews allowing travel out of his community to the east 6an-10am only and to the west 6am to 5pm, and it could tale 6 hours each way to travel a short distance..so you probably are not going to get to or get back before curfew and can get shot dead.

people are denied medical aid, water, food, jobs, fuel, financial institutions to maintain an economy in an area occupied by a foreign army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86mgmJwg-PI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LUZXms1OGM&feature=related

this is where our money is going.. $2,000,000 a KM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ptRtRVn8EU&feature=related

[Kurska]

4. Do you think there could possibly be a reason for that?

This isn't happening in a vacuum where the innocent palestinian is being pushed around by wholly guilty israel. Israel isn't manning checkpoints and putting their soldiers in harms way, just because. They are doing it because taking down the checkpoints, the walls, or the curfews invariably result in an increase in terrorist attacks on israel; A increase in suicide bombings or even mad gunmen shooting civilians, but people seem to always want to look at these precautions like they are unreasonable or cruel.

[sam sarrha]

5. during the intafada.. protests against the setletments in 1 yr Isralae snipers shot dead over 900

children.. killed over 9000 adults.. if Mexico had run us out into the Mohave desert and fenced us in, i believe we'd be doing the same.. worse

[oberliner]

7. If Mexico had run us out into the Mohave desert and fenced us in?

I do not think your analogy is applicable to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

What is your source of the claim that "Isralae" snipers shot dead over 900 children in one year?

Also, how many Israeli children have Palestinians killed during that time period?

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vegasaurus]

11. I'd think the Palestinians would look at these results

and recognize that "violent resistance" ie "intifada" has brought them nothing but misery.

Prior to the intifada, there was no wall, no checkpoints, and there was great freedom of movement.

Since the Palestinians began their crusade of suicide bombing, their lives have gotten much more restricted and a whole lot more miserable.

Perhaps they should look at the cause and effect.

Instead of the Intifada making Israeli lives more miserable (which it did initially, until they erected walls and checkpoints to protect themselves), the resistance has only made the lives of Palestinians more miserable.

[sam sarrha]

13. you put the cart before the horse.. illegal occupation settlements caused this..

squatting on the water aquifers started most of this.. i'm not supporting their reactions.. i'm looking at both sides.. your observation just repeating sad worn out propaganda, israel needs to get out of the territories.. totally out, let the UN come in.

[Vegasaurus]

18. The Palestinians were occupied for 20 years by Egypt and Jordan

They didn't blow up busses or cafes then.

And there has always, for 100 years, been violence and terrorism of Arabs towards Jews. (and before that, just oppression)

[sam sarrha]

19. i proposed solution.. you still harp hate

[Dick Dastardly]

20. Before there was an occupation there were countless acts of terror launched at Israel. The reason

there is an occupation is due to an Arab war to destroy Israel . Why would Israel want or trust the UN there. In 67 Nasser told the UN Peackeepers to leave and they pulled out. He immediatly massed troops in the former DMZ and threatend Israel that they will be destroyed

BTW the occupation is not illegal, it was a result of Israels self defense. UNSC Res 242 gives Israel the right to administer all of the territories until a comprehensive peace is reached. Israel is also not required to leave all of the territory it captured, it is disputed territory. This has all been stated and restated by the actual drafters of Res 242 and others involved including the top jurists in international law like Professor Stephen Schwebel.




Professor Stephen Schwebel, former judge on the Hague’s International Court of Justice (1981-2000), who distinguished between territory acquired in an "aggressive conquest" (such as Japanese conquests during the 1930s and Nazi conquests during World War II) and territory taken in a war of self-defense (for example, Israel’s capture of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967 war). He also distinguished between the taking of territory that is legally held by another nation (such as the Japanese occupation of Chinese territory and the Nazi Germany occupation of France, Holland, Belgium and other European lands) as opposed to the taking of territory illegally held. The latter applies to the West Bank and Gaza, which were not considered the legal territories of any High Contracting Party when Israel won control of them. The West Bank and Gaza were never the territory of a High Contracting Party; the occupation after 1948 by Jordan and Egypt was illegal and neither country ever had lawful or recognized sovereignty. The last legal sovereignty over the territories was that of the League of Nations Palestine Mandate which encouraged Jewish settlement of the land.

Regarding Israel’s acquisition of territories in the 1967 war, Schwebel wrote:

Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title. ("What Weight to Conquest," American Journal of International Law, 64 (1970))




"The facts of the June 1967 'Six Day War' demonstrate that Israel reacted defensively against the threat and use of force against her by her Arab neighbors. This is indicated by the fact that Israel responded to Egypt's prior closure of the Straits of Tiran, its proclamation of a blockade of the Israeli port of Eilat, and the manifest threat of the UAR's use of force inherent in its massing of troops in Sinai, coupled with its ejection of UNEF.

"It is indicated by the fact that, upon Israeli responsive action against the UAR, Jordan initiated hostilities against Israel. It is suggested as well by the fact that, despite the most intense efforts by the Arab States and their supporters, led by the Premier of the Soviet Union, to gain condemnation of Israel as an aggressor by the hospitable organs of the United Nations, those efforts were decisively defeated.

"The conclusion to which these facts lead is that the Israeli conquest of Arab and Arab-held territory was defensive rather than aggressive conquest."



"(a) a state acting in lawful exercise of its right of self-defense may seize and occupy foreign territory as long as such seizure and occupation are necessary to its self-defense;
"(b) as a condition of its withdrawal from such territory, that State may require the institution of security measures reasonably designed to ensure that that territory shall not again be used to mount a threat or use of force against it of such a nature as to justify exercise of self-defense;
"(c) Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title.
"as between Israel, acting defensively in 1948 and 1967, on the one hand, and her Arab neighbors, acting aggressively, in 1948 and 1967, on the other, Israel has the better title in the territory of what was Palestine, including the whole of Jerusalem, than do Jordan and Egypt."

"... namely, that no legal right shall spring from a wrong, and the Charter principle that the Members of the United Nations shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State."


here is his book
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZWJTqMjA5OkC&pg=PA522&lpg=PA522&dq=who+distinguished+between+territory+acquired+in+an+%22aggressive+conquest%22&source=web&ots=XZgIXyxnhS&sig=77tE23sgjE4ix9Aa6NL9u6KdXyE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

more from him
http://www.mefacts.com/cache/html/territories/10508.htm




Putting the UN in is no solution. Mutual negotiation with a true peace partner is. Stopping acts of terror and incitement is. Unless you have those there will be no change

[azurnoir]

21. He who makes the biggest post ................. n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. You are in la-la land, painting the European colonialists as the victim.

Nice try though.

[oberliner]

15. I appreciate the response

I would respectfully assert that ifamericansknew is a dubious site, to put it mildly.

B'Tselem says that over the last 8 years (since 2000) a little over 2200 Palestinians who were not involved in any hostilities were killed by Israeli forces.

Over that same time period, a little over 200 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians.

In addition, around 600 Palestinians were killed by other Paletsinians.

I do not believe your claim about the number of children killed in one year by sniper fire is accurate.

Here is the link to B'Tselem's casualty information since 2000:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

[sam sarrha]

16. i stated my error in a reply to that post.. i believe it was the total at that time

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. Certainly answered your question about how many Israelis were killed compared to

Palestinians, doesn't it?

Not even in the same league is it?

But the numbers don't really matter do they? Isn't the thinking that it's worth it to apartheid-ize 3.5+ million Arabs if it will save even one Israeli life?

[oberliner]

35. How about we work towards a solution where neither Israeli nor Palestinian children are killed?

Why not focus on those voices among both Palestinians and Israelis who reject violence and promote peaceful coexistence?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

38. Oh.. am I not doing that?

You're the one who questioned the number of Israeli children killed in the same time period, in your post # 7 above.

In order to begin to establish peace, the first step is to stop the draconian measures that are in place due to the thinking I described above: anything is warranted to save a single Israeli life, no matter the consequence on millions of Palestinians.

[oberliner]

41. Another possible first step

Another possible first step would be Hamas vowing to reject violence as a legitimate means of "resistance" against Israel.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

42. Or how about this as a first step: choosing to stop the daily expansion of internationally

illegal settlements?

Like I said Oberliner, even one Israeli life is worth creating apartheid over, right?

[shira]

44. that first step was tried in Gaza...

...you expect different results in the West Bank?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

48. The first step in Gaza was the first step in the bantustanization of Palestine.

It was very successful from the POV of TPTB in Israel, wouldn't you agree?

[Vegasaurus]

37. Arabs could have had a thriving state

many times over.


Violence and resistance has made their lives very miserable.

[shira]

40. here's what is not in the same league

the Palestinian leadership has deliberately ATTEMPTED to murder at least 10 times the number of Israeli children than all Palestinian children killed by Israel. That they are not successful doesn't take away from the fact that this is infinitely more evil than anything Israel has managed. Put simply, if Israel deliberately attempted to murder as many children as Hamas/PA has, and they have the means to succeed at that, the kiddie death toll would be in the tens of thousands in just the past 8 years.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

43. If it weren't for apartheid..... just think! Is that your point? nt

[shira]

45. my point

is that you compare numbers of dead....why not compare numbers of ATTEMPTED dead? Why not contemplate how many tens of thousands Israel could immediately kill, given their capabilities, if they were of the same mind as PA/Hamas leadership the past 8 years.

if we're supposed to believe Israel is evil due to numbers, what are we to believe based on INTENT?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

47. Ah... the old "INTENTION" deception...

Israel doesn't *MEAN* to be murderous and violent... they just have no choice.

They INTEND to behave morally, they just don't.

Palestinians INTEND to behave immorally, but ususaly don't.

Which is worse?

LOL you're funny Shira!

[shira]

50. deception?

There's no question the PA/Hamas has intended to kill tens of thousands of soft targets (civilians). If Israel didn't do anything to stop it, the Israeli death toll would easily be in the hundreds of thousands now. And you wrote that Palestinian leadership usually DOESN'T act immorally? What a riot! With the wall, they're STILL trying to penetrate it and getting caught before they make it into Israel. They're STILL firing indiscriminate rockets whose range and power will only increase in the future. Right, they usually DON'T act immorally.

If Israel intended to kill the tens of thousands Palestinian leadesrhip is hellbent on murdering, Israel easily could do that in days. Jenin is all the proof needed to show that Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties. Given the same threat, what other countries have opted for what the IDF did? Israel could have easily destroyed Jenin from the sky like any other country.

There's no comparison.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

49. In South Africa APARTHEID was the problem. In Israel, it's the SOLUTION!

Just saw that quote on a blog and thought it very true.

[shira]

51. but it's not apartheid

How do you have apartheid in the OT but not within Israel, when Palestinians exist in both the OT and within Israel? Simple. It's not apartheid.

If you want to claim low-level war and its consequences are worse than apartheid, I'll agree with that.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

52. As long as there are roads for Jews only, as long as the body politics is divvied up

into noncontinguous communities, as long as there is a different standard for JEWS on the WB than ARABS, I'll have to call it apartheid.

Regardless, as pile of dog shit by any other name stinks as bad.

[sam sarrha]

6. watch the links in #3

[azurnoir]

8. Wow the "they did it once up on a time" so we can

punish them forever mentality, what has been created here is a self sustaining and excusing system of oppression so when has the Israeli government removed the wall or the check points, it must have at some point because of the number of times I read statements like yours here

They are doing it because taking down the checkpoints, the walls, or the curfews invariably result in an increase in terrorist attacks on israel; A increase in suicide bombings or even mad gunmenshooting civilians, but people seem to always want to look at these precautions like they are unreasonable or cruel.

[Kurska]

9. Are you denying the existance of recent suicide attacks/Mad gunmen?

At what point does israel assume it's safe from these attack? Why should it let down it's guard if it continues to see the same results over and over again?

[azurnoir]

22. So your saying it is forever? n/t

[Vegasaurus]

12. The terrorists pretend to be ill and in need of medical care

they try to blow up crossings with their own food and supplies, or electrical plants providing their electricity.

They have done absolutely nothing to give Israel the impression that letting up restrictions would do anything except result in more violence.

In fact, history proves that.

Every time Israel reduces restrictions, the violence increases. Then Israel clamps down, and the violence is reduced.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians seem unable to see the role they have in their own misery.

The wall and checkpoints will be there for a long time, regretably, because the Palestinian militants continue to use every available opportunity, even when there is net harm to them, to try to kill Israelis.

[sam sarrha]

14. genocide isnt the answer, i agree with president Carter on this.. get out of the territories an

bring in the UN

[pelsar]

17. actually there are still attempts to bring in bombs..

they just get caught because of the wall and checkpoints and intelligence...a nice change of pace from the period from before the walls an checkpoints....at least from an israeli point of view; our busses are safe again, our restaurants are safe again and our malls are safe to go shopping again....

at least everyone i know thinks so......

[azurnoir]

23. As it has been pointed out

the Israeli government has little will to cooperate in the creation of a Palestinian state and you have stated that it most likely will not happen. Its nice your buses are safe and your kids can go to the mall and if kids a couple miles away in distance but on another planet in what Israeli kids relate to, are going hungry as a result not your problem right? The Israeli government can and will keep the occupation going forever if it suits, I just wish there was more honesty about that from the government of Israel instead of the PC pretext of negotiations, however if the polls I read and the elections yesterday are accurate perhaps there will be.

[pelsar]

24. the honesty would be nice...

on both sides...funny thing about it...when hamas or hizballa are being honest...so many dont seem to believe them...i believe your one of them?...hamas has made it clear: no acceptance of israel...i dont think they've been ambiguous about it have they in either deed or words?

same too with hizballa.....and the PA...perhaps they should be forthcoming and state clealy that they really arent in control of all of the armed gangs that they let develop under their rule and they have presently neither the political power nor the military power to take them on?...and in fact they cant even be sure (as was the case in gaza) they their fatah ranks dont have hamas members within...

wouldnt that be nice to hear as well......

or does the honesty only go one way in your world?
____

and the kids going hungry in gaza because of hamas...as my neighbor pointed out this morning...they still have gilad shalit...and until hamas frees him, they should get little from us.....besides with saudi bring in trucks and the borders being closed only when missiles land...one really really really has to pretend that israel is now at fault for any shortcomings in gaza.... its getting almost pathetic to blame israel at this point.

[azurnoir]

25. It is not that Hamas is not believed or at least that their much

touted and depended on Charter says that as does Fatahs at least on Fatahs website. It is that Hamas can not possibly do it ever. It is comparable to me declaring myself president of the US doesn't mean I am or that it will ever happen, but I did say it.

[Vegasaurus]

26. Nonsense

There are nuclear capabilities being developed in Iran right now.

Iran has lots of money, technology and access to big weapons.

Iran is a supporter of Hamas's ambitions.

It is absolutely possible that Hamas could one day annihilate Israel, and they have claimed they will never, ever give up these goals.

Why don't you believe them?

[azurnoir]

27. Just knew it was you

when I read the title line of the reply, its a small community of posters here ya know

However when it comes to Hamas "nuking" Israel there is a proximity problem they nuke themselves too doesn't matter any nuke small or large the wind doesn't recognize check points, or is this another suicidal Muslim post?
Oh and before you go on a suicide bomber rant an individual or even small group but the leaders always keep themselves safe there is no safety here,

[pelsar]

28. you skipped the honesty part...

that fatah cant control the various jihad groups....and that its reasonable to assume that, as in the successful model of gaza, hamas is probably infiltrated fatah...and all that means as well...

i thought you wanted honesty ....or doesnt that include the Palistenians (can you explain why?...do you believe its not relevant?)

or does it ruin the thesis that all israel has to do is pull out of the westbank and peace will then ensue (do you believe that?)

[azurnoir]

29. Your right I skipped that part

however it was because the thread I needed is archived but as luck would have it there was a related thread here a short time later

Obama's National Security Adviser Makes Some Israelis Nervous

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x227164

I'll give you a couple names

Marine Corps Gen. James L. Jones Jr.

Lt. Gen. Keith W. Dayton,

Both are dealing with the training of PA forces in the West Bank and both have complained or accused Israel of actively interfering that training and the implementation of PA forces, in fact Jones wrote a reort on the situation that has been described as "scathing" of Israels behavior in this matter, so much so the current WH will not release it.

[pelsar]

30. i"m aware of the report....

did you know that hamas had a very well trained force... despite israeli interference?

and of course the history of the PA as a force is hardly reassuring:

the reason the joint patrols ended was because of the of the Palestinians decided shoot one of his israeli partners......not to mention multiple shooting incidents by "off duty policemen.....are you going to claim that, those type of incidents now "probably, maybe, wont happen?
_______________________

so since hamas has proven beyond any doubts that its motivation that counts more than anything.....the PAs lack of ability (i guess post oslos growth of jihad groups shouldnt be forgotten...correct?) cant all be blamed on israel....or can it?


btw how much of the PA has hamas infiltrated...as they did in gaza?

[azurnoir]

31. Some questions

First just by who and when was this Hamas force trained? And then the the shooting incident is this one were Palestinian police fired at Israeli snipers in 1996?

http://www.nigelparry.com/diary/war/11.html

I also believe there was an incident at the height of the second Intifada, I did google off duty Palestinian police shoots Israeli and got nada on that subject lots on Israelis shooting Palestinians however.

Hamas infiltrated Pa that is strange way of putting it as Hamas is part of the PA or was until June of 2007 I am not sure of their present status which as far as i know has not changed

[pelsar]

32. hamas...

in gaza hamas "trained themselves"......they had people go to iran, syria, lebanon, egypt, to learn how to make bombs, some independently trained themselves......just as the pre israel palmach, haganna did....its called motivation. If the PA/fatah (as in the gaza experience) with no motivation, no training in the world will help

the PA police joining the demonstrators...is your memory so short?...it was a constant during intifada II. The most famous incident was when the child al-Dura was killed....it happened during an attack on an israeli police station, an attack that also included Palestinian police.....


and why israel doesnt trust them.....
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3526958,00.html
----

i assume your joking
Hamas infiltrated Pa that is strange way of putting it as Hamas is part of the PA or was until June of 2007 I am not sure of their present status which as far as i know has not changed

do i really have to write that hamas took over gaza and killed pa members?......and that the PA hunts them in the west bank? ..this is rather basic stuff

_____

but thats all basic history of the region....not at all as interesting as your stand on "no pressure on egypt to open the borders and help the Palestinians...better to put pressure on israel using the Palestinians lack of food...and if in the meantime some are malnourished and suffer, its the better alternative....

i think i got that right didnt i? and if i didnt the please explain....

[azurnoir]

36. I cited Intifada 2 in comment

so your basing Israels interference with efforts to train Palestinian police on the comments of one, ok.

then back to this BS

but thats all basic history of the region....not at all as interesting as your stand on "no pressure on egypt to open the borders and help the Palestinians...better to put pressure on israel using the Palestinians lack of food...and if in the meantime some are malnourished and suffer, its the better alternative....

that has been addressed in numerous posts recently on another current thread your comment is to put it politely disingenuous.

[pelsar]

39. not it hasnt..you keep avoiding the consequences of your "policy"

how about this...i ask a simple question..and you simple answer it directly....and i shall frame it in a real possible scenario:

hamas launches rockets in to israel in "large doses"...20 a day (as they've done in the past, so we know its possible to happen again)
israel closes all the borders and informs the UN until they stop, no borders shall be opened,.....the missiles continue daily.....

egypt says nothing, but keeps its border shut down...until saudi arabia sends in 10 trucks, and egypt opens lets them in and shuts it down again

the kassams continue, the Palestinians are hungry, no medicine etc
_____

should the UN or some other body pressure egypt to open its border and send in food and supplies?

all you have to do is answer the question directly, not to difficult. (think of it as a challenge)

[shira]

46. we know the answer

Palestinians should starve and Israel should be blamed, rather than Palestinians fed using minimal pressure on Egypt to allow UN trucks through. This is a very common viewpoint shared by many phony progressives. Getting them to admit such a regressive viewpoint is nearly impossible.