Israeli warships block Libyan aid boat near Gaza

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Israeli warships on Monday prevented a Libyan cargo vessel from reaching the Gaza Strip, the impoverished Palestinian territory under a crippling Israeli blockade.

The ship, laden with 3,000 tonnes of goods, was stopped several kilometres (miles) off Gaza's shores and ordered to return to the Egyptian port of El-Arish, said Palestinian MP Jamal Khodary, who heads an international campaign against the Israeli sanctions.

"Navy ships approached the Libyan boat and ordered it on the radio to turn back, and so it did," Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said.

"Anyone wishing to transfer humanitarian aid into Gaza is welcome to do it in coordination with Israel and through the regular crossings. They can also contact Egypt."

Israel sealed off its crossings with Gaza -- the impoverished territory's main gateway for food and humanitarian aid -- as well as its maritime borders after the Islamist movement Hamas violently seized power there in June 2007.

The sanctions were again tightened in recent weeks amid renewed tensions and tit-for-tat exchanges of fire that threatened to destroy an Egyptian-brokered June 19 ceasefire."

more

[Vegasaurus]

1. Libya, the bastion of freedom and hope!

coming to the aid of the beleaguered Palestinians!

Maybe they should clean their own house first, since it is a mess there.

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Okay, so you clearly are opposed to aid being sent to Gaza...

I don't see what the aid shipment being turned away has got to do with whatever it is you think of Libya as a country. Unlike you, I hope the aid does eventually get through to the people of Gaza who sorely need those supplies...

[Kurska]

5. If israel lets this one through

The next is going to be 50% food, 50% AK-47's. Libya should not be the country to distribute aid, they can not be trusted

[azurnoir]

6. Yes the people of Gaza do need supplies

Which is why some on this board have trotted out all the usual excuses and one not even germane to the subject I mean how dare anyone but especially Libya thwart the Israeli government punishment of Gaza. Besides it has been about a week since Israel was so kind as to allow in a trickle of food in so it's about time to do so again, keep them hungry but make sure no one actually dies.

[Vegasaurus]

7. Baloney

food went in last week.

Stop the terrorism and food comes.

When they weren't shooting rockets, there was food aplenty.

Before they started bombing cafes and pizzerias, Palestinians worked in Israel, had no walls, no checkpoints.

Only the blind cannot see that terrorism makes life worse for the Palestinians.

They themselves have the power to improve their lives.

Unfortunately, they seem not to want to do this.

[pelsar]

9. please stop with the pseudo "humanitarian gestures....

you've made it clear that its not the supplies that your concerned with....not the health of the Palestinians....your preference is that the supplies come in a way that israel is involved......just like so many others, using the Palestinians as pawns.

you'v written:
_____

No its not Egypts problem, why should they stick their necks out, they have done enough already and it has proven a thankless task, but do keep up the "quick look over" attempts at distraction.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x224882


I am not for or against Egypt allowing in food
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x224882

____

if the goal was supplies to the gazans i doubt someone would have such a attitude....

[pelsar]

10. please stop with the pseudo "humanitarian gestures....

you've made it clear that its not the supplies that your concerned with....not the health of the Palestinians....your preference is that the supplies come in a way that israel is involved......just like so many others, using the Palestinians as pawns.

you'v written:
_____

No its not Egypts problem, why should they stick their necks out, they have done enough already and it has proven a thankless task, but do keep up the "quick look over" attempts at distraction.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x224882


I am not for or against Egypt allowing in food
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x224882

____

if the goal was supplies to the gazans i doubt someone would have such a attitude....

[azurnoir]

11. Why do you never post the entire quote?

and both quotes are from the same thread

quote #2 I am not for or against Egypt allowing in food it would seem that Egypt is against the idea though and they are a neutral party in this even if they're Arabs and share a border. Unless this has suddenly become the Egypt/Gaza conflict.

as for the first quote I will leave to because me to keep pointing the finger at Egypt is a strawman argument and I will repeat that this is not the Egypt/Gaza conflict, while I am sure the Israeli would be overjoyed to have Egypt thwart its attempt th stop rockets through hunger and a hoped insurrection by the people of Gaza the Egyptians do not seem to see it that way and as a neutral third party have no reason, perhaps they should transfer food to Gaza but once involved have equal say at the next round of "peace negotiations".

[pelsar]

12. what egypt wants is irrelevant to your attitude....

i posted the relevant part of the quote...

I am not for or against Egypt allowing in food...

that YOU think/believe egypt should not get involved.....i would believe that for those who believe there is a human crises in gaza, they wouldnt really care what the neighboring countries politics are...just that food would get it.

you've made it clear.. politics before food.

_____

[azurnoir]

13. How convenient another "the Left does not care" post

so I suppose ostensibly because apparently you believe Egypt should take on the responsibility of Gaza while of course Israel maintains it's current blockades, you care deeply about whether or not the people of Gaza are fed right, well just as long as Israel does not have open a crossing to allow trucks and food paid for by the UN and manned by UN personnel through, have I got that right?
I have an idea; why not bypass the crossings and Egypt altogether, I believe that the UN has or can lease or otherwise acquire sea going vessels, they can then bring in all the food and medical supplies needed through the port of Gaza and do it at one shot. In that same vein if Israel were to remove it's warships from Gaza's waters allowing free access then Israel could build a wall as high as possible and there would be no protest not to mention Israel quite possibly getting accolades from engineering journals as to its amazing feat.
My prior post does not reflect my attitude but rather my take on the actual reality of the situation. "Gottcha" pandering does not cut it sir, you say Oslo is dead yet I have seen your government cite it recently when something works in it's favorite so apparently it can be revived when needed. As long as Israel maintains its blockade it is still the responsible party here unless of course the world should view the blockade as an act of war on Israel's part with all of the political and legal baggage that comes with that.
edited to add: you also ignored the last line of my prior comment:

"the Egyptians do not seem to see it that way and as a neutral third party have no reason, perhaps they should transfer food to Gaza but once involved have equal say at the next round of "peace negotiations".

and I paraphrased it because it was a "run on" sentence

[pelsar]

14. its a post of the hypocrisy....

Its not a matter of whether or not i think Egypt should take responsibility or not....is a matter of priorities. I personally would rather see the population of gaza get all fat and happy.....as long as its not at the expense of the israelis.

sorry you were very clear:
My prior post does not reflect my attitude but rather my take on the actual reality of the situation.

let me repost in bold:

I am not for or against Egypt allowing in food......thats a statement of ATTITUDE...and a rather bland one when people are "starving", dont you think?

its a "gotcha moment" in that what you really believe slipped out. Like so many its preferable to let the Palestinians suffer so that pressure can be put upon israel or that israel can be portrayed in an evil light because israel "is responsable"...i believe PM has a similar belief.


this is precisely the attitude which explains why the Palestinians are where they are: the short version? its israels fault and they have to solve it..and until then, they'll just have to suffer.....isnt that what your saying?

i would prefer an attitude which says: hey the Egyptians arent being shot at, they can bring in food stuff, make sure there are no rockets between the milk bottles and the Palestinians wont have to suffer, israelis wont be threatened or shot at....seems to be a real win for the Palestinians---so whats wrong with it?

i think i know: The israelis first have to own up to their responsibilities (as we see them) no matter how long it takes and no matter how long the Palestinians have to suffer...is that it?...because it sure does sound like it and why the Palestinians are still in the camps.



a few points;
walls wont work against kassams
everyone of those border points have israeli soldiers exposed to gun fire, mortars and kassams when the borders are opened...and many have been killed.....simple fact that history has shown: its dangerous for israelis to open the borders:

simple question: why should israelis risk their lives if other options are possible?

[azurnoir]

15. You one again paraphrase my comment

to suit your political need my attitude is reflected in this comment

"the Egyptians do not seem to see it that way and as a neutral third party have no reason, perhaps they should transfer food to Gaza but once involved have equal say at the next round of "peace negotiations".

a comment you choose to ignore because it derails your assertions, please don't put words in my mouth by paraphrasing a comment with the intent of changing the meaning

the comment you paraphrase was a reflection of facts on the ground not my attitude

edited to add as far as walls not stopping kassams it has become quite obvious that blockades do not either, airstrikes, incursions, assassinations, ect do not either so why keep it up except for pleasure of creating misery for innocent people?

[pelsar]

16. why do you care what the Egyptians think?

you dont care what the israelis think......

your comment was of attitude: when one uses the word "I" it reflects what one thinks/believes in......as in "I am not for or against Egypt allowing in food"

and you've managed to confirm what i wrote earlier
perhaps they should transfer food to Gaza but once involved have equal say at the next round of "peace negotiations".

which translates to: the Palestinians should only get food if egyptians get their political view involved.....and if Egypt cant get their view point in, well than the Palestinians can suffer ("starve") Pretty cold attitude to people who are starving.

i think thats a pretty clear clarification of what you wrote isnt it?....using the Palestinians as pawns for regional politics.

[azurnoir]

18. Nice spin but once again misses the mark

no my comment was that if Egyt allows food in to Gaza via Rafah then Egypt is no longer neutral and then has a right to a place in the negotiations, because we both albeit only one will admit that Egypt will pay a price if it allows food into Gaza the price will be diplomatic not military(saw that one coming) but still there will be a price.

Now just how that confirms that I do not care if the Gazans receive food I am not sure, your spin was indeed quite imaginative but totally inaccutate, or perhaps you don't get the difference between "should have" my words and "only if" your words.

and most interesting is this quote of yours

"which translates to: the Palestinians should only get food if egyptians get their political view involved.....and if Egypt cant get their view point in, well than the Palestinians can suffer ("starve") Pretty cold attitude to people who are starving."

Is it your assertion that Israel is starving Gaza? Mine has been that Israelis enforcing hunger and malnoutrition both of which are a bit different from actual starvation which involves death, no Israel will not allow that to happen, Israel will allow in just enough supplies to as PM put it "keep the skelitons alive" or as I put keep them hungry but keep them alive

[pelsar]

19. no spin..your words....

so lets clarify:

just as you do not care what israel thinks, believes in etc.....i really dont care what egypt thinks or cares about etc.

pressure can be put upon egypt to bring in supplies.....more than what they're getting now......you seem personally to be against it or at best "neutral".......why?

i remind you of a past post:
___________________
I am not for or against Egypt allowing in food it would seem that Egypt is against the idea though and they are a neutral party in this even if they're Arabs and share a borderhttp://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x224882


to clarify: if getting food in is paramont, the attitude wouldnt be: i am not for or against egypt....i would think it would be something to the affect of: if israel wont allow it, then we have to find other means, the status quo cant go on, they must get supplies.....: pressure on egypt is the obvious...but thats not what you wrote..and there is no spin at all.


Now just how that confirms that I do not care if the Gazans receive food I am not sure its not a matter of not caring...its just secondary to the politics of the region....

if Egyt allows food in to Gaza via Rafah then Egypt is no longer neutral and then has a right to a place in the negotiations,

so are you saying if Egypt doesnt get a place, they shouldnt open the border?.....cause you sure arent clear about it:

__________________
should they or should they not open the border and let in supplies unconditionally?

[azurnoir]

20. No need to clarify or remind

I think you have quoted that paraphrased comment in almost every post in the 3 hours and I have explained repeatedly yet you keep it up, do you not have anything else to "prove" your assertions?
It is your claim that food is secondary to politics not mine.

And the inevitable black and white question that is a lose-lose either way so no I do not think Egypt should open Rafah unconditionally but instead Israel should reopen it's crossing as it did last and the week before allow foreign aid through a quote that I am syre will once again be paraphrased per need to distort the entire meaning.
I also note you have not answered one of my questions because I do not think you can.

[pelsar]

21. you 've clarified it....

no I do not think Egypt should open Rafah unconditionally but instead Israel should reopen it's crossing

and that is precisly the line of thinking that has kept the Palestinians impoverish and miserable to this day: Playing politics instead of getting the Palestinians what they need (in this case by a safe route). Since israelis policy is clear:

shoot at us and we close the border crossings....and since hamas clearly is going to shoot when they feel like it, it is most interesting how so many feel that the Palestinians in the street should continue to suffer while the intl community plays politics with the health (as per your attitude)...but then that is precisely what they've been the victims of for over 60 years.


the govt of israels first priority is protecting its citizens....and by keeping exposed soliders to the kassams and mortars to a minimum the govt is doing their job and that is a given..... Obviously others in the intl community and here have a different set of priorities...at the Palestinians expense.

____

i assume your joking:
I also note you have not answered one of my questions because I do not think you can.

hasnt been a single question that i know of, no matter what kind of question has been asked of me, that i've avoided....which question? (though i've asked thousands of questions that dont get answered because the "framing is wrong-whatever that means....)

[azurnoir]

22. Explain how Israel is protecting

its citizens again your quote

the govt of israels first priority is protecting its citizens....and by keeping exposed soliders to the kassams and mortars to a minimum the govt is doing their job. Obviously others in the intl community and here have a different set of priorities...at the Palestinians expense.

so how it working so far? doesn't seem to be at does it? hasn;t in the past won't in the future

a different set of priorities, I suggest you look at the OP here libya is trying to bring aid in Israel will not allow it, it would seem Israels priority is to stop aid from sources other than itself from getting into Gaza, so why would Egypt be any different, wouldn't Israel claim that Egypt was breaking some or other agreement? Well I will answer that one for you first Egypt has a more powerful military than Libya one could quite possibly harm Israel and a good deal of Israels oil comes from Egypt giving Egypt leverage that Gaza does not have so there is a question of how far Israel would go or can afford to go in stopping Egypt.

questions

It was your claim that Israel is starving Gaza, is that an admission to that or just rhetoric?

What is your priority here?

And are you really in support of Egypt opening Rafah thus rendering Israels security policy more futile than it already is?

What would be the consequences this question applys to both consquences for Egypt and more importantly Israels subsquent actions towards Gaza? of Egypt allowing food in through Rafah

[pelsar]

24. answers...

1) so how it working so far? doesn't seem to be at does it? hasn;t in the past won't in the future----

that is a really dumb question, given the history of the crossings: did you already "forget" about the israelis at the crossings being killed

keeping the borders closed keeps IDF soldiers/civilians from being shot at and killed as in the past....at the crossings themselves (history)-so yes keeping the crossings closed have potentially saved lives...its working very very good

_________

2) Libya is trying to bring aid in Israel will not allow it, it would seem Israels priority is to stop aid from sources other than itself from getting into Gaza, so why would Egypt be any different,

Libya has no self interest if the Hamas is armed with rockets and plenty of bombs...Egypt has a self interest in keeping them out of gaza, hence they would insure that its just supplies being brought it..as much as they can

and the OP:
Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said.
"Anyone wishing to transfer humanitarian aid into Gaza is welcome to do it in coordination with Israel and through the regular crossings. They can also contact Egypt."


so far you 0 or 2
______

3) It was your claim that Israel is starving Gaza, is that an admission to that or just rhetoric?
rhetoric

4 And are you really in support of Egypt opening Rafah thus rendering Israels security policy more futile than it already is?
100%....the Palestinians need an import export port, that can be relied upon to be open...they need the opportunity to create their own society without the IDF in the streets around their necks...this is a golden chance for them to do something positive....the risk is worth it.



5)What would be the consequences this question applys to both consquences for Egypt and more importantly Israels subsquent actions towards Gaza? of Egypt allowing food in through Rafah

the exact same consequences that Egypt had when the opened up Rafah in the past and when they increased the electricity to gaza....Zero, zilch, nothing, nada from israel, egypt gets increased trade and the moral value of actually supporting the Gazans....

and israel?...nothing as well....there would be nothing for israel to do...the long term consequences are outstanding....that the priority is the Palestinians health and well being and not 'revenge" upon israel.

[pelsar]

31. case closed: saudi delivers food via egypt....

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http://www.paltoday.com/arabic/News-28180.html&tbb=1
___


guess that settles that doesnt it?..Saudi Arabia delivers food via egypt to gaza: no war breaks out, no repucussions..NOTHING but delivery of food.

I think that makes the whole situation black and white:

for those whos goal is simply to deliver food and supplies and help the Palestinians, they go through egypt, for those who want to make a political statement at the expense of the Palestinians they wait for Israel to open the borders or try via the sea....and the Palistenians get nothing. (those UN trucks?...another 20km to egypt and to the rafah border)
___

boy does this remind me of all of those discussions that Egypt cant/wont open the border...blah blah blah....until they did...now we have tons of words saying egypt cant/wont deliver supplies via rafah...and wow, they did.....and israel didnt start a war, boycott egypt, run to the UN....NOTHING.

i guess this situation is now clear: there are those who want to use the Palestinians as a tool against israel, and those who simply want to help....

[azurnoir]

42. Case closed?

Not hardly what you want is Israel to have retain privilege in Gaza invasions or as they are politely called incursions when it is politically advantageous while Israel does not keep with it's agreements not those with Oslo or those at Annapolis for that matter. So if Israel believes that the UN is so biased against it perhaps it should withdraw in fact to not withdraw from an organization that is claimed to be so bigoted against it seems to support that very bigotry in fact validate that bigotry.

That Egypt allows Saudi Arabia to bring supplies into Gaza is great news and it was Egypt's choice to do this, which was my point along. See all countries should have a choice in what they do not just the choosen ones.

[pelsar]

43. such a short memory

That Egypt allows Saudi Arabia to bring supplies into Gaza is great news and it was Egypt's choice to do this which was my point along.

what are you talking about?....the whole discussion was that supplies can go through egypt safely.....you were "wondering" what israel was going to do if it happened..not to mention so many posts that "why should egypt "stick its neck out etc.

all of your posts were along the lines of: its israels problem, they are responsible and egypt should not get involved..Even if it means the Palistinians suffer. How far back in time would you like to me to go and bring up all of your posts?......

Well, Egypt did decide to let in supplies....lets the gazans leave at intervals (though hamas doesnt) and i dont believe israel has done anything to stop them...
as you like to insinuate so often......(i guess cause were the 'chosen ones" right?...glad you wrote that, you usually keep your opinions about Jewish israelis to yourself...and just write vague statements that allude to jewish israelis as racists, but it appears you getting a little more honest here and with the "chosen statement." I like it, i like it when peoples biases come to the forfront and we can dispense with the discussions as if there is nothing behind them.....us chosen people......us israelis.....we're better than others.....(i'm being rhetorical in case you missed it-and if you want to have fun you can use that quote later to prove how i really am religious.....)

[azurnoir]

44. Ah I do see now

and it was just as i suspected so glad you took that bait "the chosen ones" I did not say Jews or Jewish Israelis but this whole so called discussion was not about the facts of the situation but about a personal vendetta of some sort which explains perfectly the "gottcha" nature of your posts no sir you are the one who has shown your hand here this apperently not a factual debate but a campaign against a leftist who yiou are now subtly accusing of antisemitism if that is the case I suggest you ALERT the post and quite frankly I am disappointed in this I apperently was giving you too much credit.

[pelsar]

52. I took the bait?

i guess thats one way of turning it around.......it was your writing and it certainly explains much of your writings....so many of them insinuate how israel is actually a racist country....you never write it outright...you "wonder".....you speculate"....and they're always in the direction of israeli racism or militant facism. Whether you used the "chosen ones" (an obvious referral to jews) as bait or what I wouldnt know.... i do believe its more honest description of your opinion of jewish israelis, it certainly explains a lot of your posts. (I'm not big of accusing people of anti semitism, this is simple a conception that israel is more of a theocratic govt)

but this is rather humorous:
nature of your posts no sir you are the one who has shown your hand here this apperently not a factual debate but a campaign against a leftist who yiou are now subtly accusing of anti semitism

a "campaign against a leftest"?.....you've got to be kidding. My little campaign is against the massive disinformation, lies, false and subtle "speculations that demonize israel, the illogical viewpoints that believe israelis arent allowed to defend themselves in any reasonable method and expose the massive hypocrisy and double standard of those who try to equate a targeting civilians, women and children with an army in a low level war....

and that is the nature of the "gottcha" posts...exposing my favorite hypocrisy since we left gaza: that the emphasis is not on the Palestinians standard of living, but of "making israel pay"....even when it hurts the Palestinians. And of course all of those wonderful accusations that leaving gaza has further exposed...

you can just feel the desperation as some try to ignore the fact that the israeli blockade wasnt complete and egypt could ruin it at anytime...what were those excuses?

if egypt opens the border israel will attack
if egypt opens the border america will cut of the money, at israels request
israeli soldiers are stationed there and will shoot
israel controls egyptian foreign policy

or the best one of all: ignoring that egypt even exists.....and now that egypt has actually let in supplies....oops...another proof that all those accusations were nothing more than hot air designed to demonize israel....not that it will change anything....soon we'll hear some new ones, and when they're proved wrong more will come, always forgetting the previous ones as if they didnt exisit....i like to keep those past accusations up front.

[azurnoir]

55. Sorry did not notice this post until just now

Wednesday when I posted a comment about the "chosen ones" I was not thinking i guess on a number of levels the term was not a reference to Gawd be to America and ya I expect to be called a liar or what ever, but it's true I don't think religiously was not brought up that way but more "religiously secular" you could say, upon rereading your initial post-sorry for any offense, so that being said on to "business"

First you do not name one thing that has been discussed at length on this forum. and on my part said to untrue I for one am not trying to "demonize" Israel as a whole it is the occupation/blockade that I have a problem with, in no small part because they have not been all too successful, if they were we would not be having this "discussion" would we?

AS for these items

you can just feel the desperation as some try to ignore the fact that the israeli blockade wasnt complete and egypt could ruin it at anytime...what were those excuses?

if egypt opens the border israel will attack
if egypt opens the border america will cut of the money, at israels request
israeli soldiers are stationed there and will shoot
israel controls egyptian foreign policy

Again discussed "ad nauseum" with the usual being told what I think, and do not feel the need to do so again. Accuse if want it is you on a campaign not me.

However to clarify for you my thoughts and meaning on the subject of Egypt's opening the Rafah crossing this is your quote

or the best one of all: ignoring that egypt even exists.....and now that egypt has actually let in supplies....oops...another proof that all those accusations were nothing more than hot air designed to demonize israel....not that it will change anything....soon we'll hear some new ones, and when they're proved wrong more will come, always forgetting the previous ones as if they didnt exisit....i like to keep those past accusations up front.

My comments about Egypt's not until recently opening Rafah they were in rebuttal to implication posted by you and a couple of others here that Egypt was somehow "obligated" to do this and the simple real world reality is that Egypt has no obligations to Israel or Gaza in this issue any obligations Egypt has to either are separate issues. You may note that when Egypt did open it's borders I said that was fine as long as it was Egypt's choice to do so.
If accusing people; myself in this case of only "demonizing" Israel because I state the political reality of a situation that does not suit you, or is the best you can do in an admitted campaign I suggest you go back to the drawing board as it were. It also renders honest debate almost useless because being on a campaign also means that you yourself are a propagandist and the one trying to win hearts and minds not me.

[pelsar]

58. are you certain that there is no "obligation?

simple real world reality is that Egypt has no obligations to Israel or Gaza.....so is this just because israel is involved or are ALL countries under no obligation to aid others in need?

yes a simple question....also simple to answer as well, I would suggest that somewhere in the UNs basic charter (that i have not read) there is a clause for sending in humanitarian aid when possible for those that need it....

besides egypt like so many other countries always condemn israel for treating the palestinians so bad..so when given the chance to help them, i would say that yes they are morally obligated as are all of the others to help. To think that so many feel that rather than help the Palestinians and put a bit of pressure on egypt (obviously not much at all), so many preferred that the Palestinians suffered....and so typical......

i have no problem with those who disagree with me and can put forth an argument that either has a single standard, or that they state that they in fact are using two standards since the Palestinians simply cannot be held to the western standard of civil and human rights...while sticking to the history of the various actions involved. You simply do neither...you speculate if israel will attack, wonder if bibi is elected will there be more attacks upon israeli arabs, etc....and everyone of your "speculations some how show israelis in the most racisl violent "framework".

and when shown to be wrong or asked for some sort of background as to why your speculating......no reply, why should there be, its mere speculation....i call that demonization. I admit i would find it less "disturbing if perhaps you wondered if the Egyptians Security people would machine gun the Palestinians as they cross the border....but you dont, you have implied that the IDF would however....(and just a fun fact: its the egyptian security forces actually kill sudanese as they try to cross into israel, where the IDF doesnt kill them).....
____

and now comes the most simplist of question that you have yet to answer:
since for israel to open the borders, requires risking israeli lives, why shouldnt egypt open further its borders?, nobody is shooting at them, its safer....do you value israeli lives so low? or is it better to have the Palestinians suffer because israel refuses to risk its citizens lives....

[pelsar]

41. the answer is......nothing

What would be the consequences this question applys to both consquences for Egypt and more importantly Israels subsquent actions towards Gaza? of Egypt allowing food in through Rafah

as per the shiras link: saudi arabia brought in food via trucks through rafah....

i havent heard of any "consequences' have you? (other than the Palestinians getting some additional supplies)...did i miss the news? did israel attack egypt? attack the food trucks? tell the american govt to stop giving egypt aid?......

would you please list those consequences you were referring to? I'll help

1) lowered prices for the supplies brought in by the tunnel smugglers
2)
3)

and the actual consequences and the israeli actions toward gaza for the delivery of the food via Rafah?
1)
2)
3)

i know you wont fill out the list...because there isn't anything to fill out, but then you didnt say what israel would do... as per your system, you just "wondered what" israel would do if food is delivered via rafah.....so when nothing happens....you were just "wondering"...until the next time when you get to "wonder" what those evil/racist israelis will do....

[azurnoir]

46. As per Shira so per you

as I said in an earlier post I gave you too much credit end of discussion.

[azurnoir]

23. Meant this to be part of last 2 posts

keep getting distracted damn phone

this is a piece from last week thanks to Oberliner from another thread

In Damascus, Hamas leader Mashaal reportedly agreed to the request to halt rocket attacks and relayed orders to Gaza, Jordanian sources say. On Wednesday, according to sources in Gaza, senior Hamas military commanders met with leaders of Islamic Jihad and other smaller militant bands and ordered them to stop firing rockets.

Once Abdullah secured a promise from Hamas to halt the rocket fire, he summoned Olmert and Barak for an urgent meeting at his palace in Amman on Tuesday night, where he relayed the news of Hamas' willingness to curb the rocket fire. He also warned the two Israelis that an assault on Gaza would destroy any chance of an Arab peace initiative and would jeopardize Israel's ties with its moderate Arab neighbors, Jordan and Egypt.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1861524,00.html?imw=Y

so apprently Hamas is trying to work the situation out

[pelsar]

25. its called responsibility.....

they got gaza...now they're responsible for making it work

[azurnoir]

26. Well ok then however their

first responsibility would be to get Israeli war ships out their waters that would go along way towards a working Gaza, also in today's world no country is an island which is what Gaza is today as far as responsibility goes every government is responsible for trying to control what goes on in its territory sometimes there is success sometimes not such as the (Russian?) Mob killing in Israel a couple weeks back the guys name was Yaakov something but is the Israeli government responsible for this killing?

[pelsar]

27. of course the govts responsable...

thats why we pay the police, their job is to make is safe for us.....and when the mob blows up a car, the public is screaming at the police for their incompetence.....

Gazas govt responsibility is to insure the safety and welfare of its inhabitants (or so i believe)...taking advantage of their limited assets. I think it might be a waste to expend energy in trying to remove israeli warships, i'm sure there are better ways to spend their time and energy......

[Shaktimaan]

34. I agree.

Removing the Israeli ships should be among their primary concerns. So far though, they have been failing miserably. And they are thus failing their people entirely.

Now most governments, if faced by a similar challenge, would possibly try something different than their past activities. So far, shooting Qassams and otherwise attacking Israel has not managed to get their ports open. Perhaps they should try NOT firing Qassams or planning attacks against Israel. Unless opening their port is actually a tertiary concern for them when compared with "liberating Palestine from the sea to the river."

And here I thought that Bush had to be the most inept leader in the entire world. I guess not. No government has done more damage to their nation in less time than Hamas. But that's the thing with democracy... you can't tell the people who to vote for. We should have elected Gore. They should have NOT elected Hamas. Now we're both stuck with what we deserve.

[azurnoir]

47. We DID elect Gore in 2000

it was SCOTUS that decided otherwise. However all that aside when it comes to Gaza's water even one Israels most ardent if not most ardent Islamic allies Turkey is sending ships in something that surprised me, but it does make a statement about the situation as for Hamas they have been cut off from the rest of the world for almost 3 years now, and during that time have only grown more militant and "Islamic extremist" in isolation, historically that is the way many fanatic religious sects start out the combination of isolation and desperation, perhaps it would have been better to keep them in the fold so to speak not condoning or approving of their actions but at least that way there might have been some control as it is now the situation is a catastrophe waiting to happen.

[Shaktimaan]

50. No, that is untrue.

SCOTUS merely decided to end the recount of several counties in Florida. But even if Gore's requested recount had been allowed to continue, he would not have won Florida. Had it not been for the butterfly ballot, Ralph Nader, confused elderly voters and a generally poor electoral system in Florida then Gore certainly would have won. But he didn't. According to the system outlined in our Constitution, the United States of America elected George Bush as president in 2000.

----------

during that time have only grown more militant and "Islamic extremist" in isolation

Really? What makes you think so exactly? They seem to be just about the same as they have always been to me... totally bananas. Besides, how could you be so sure that any changes in Hamas' attitude is due to the blockade? That is just a single factor out of many. The most influential factor is arguably the fact that Hamas won the election, gaining a level of legitimacy and renown all over the world. Not to mention all of the extraneous trappings that come along with suddenly finding oneself a world leader, welcome at the UN. Especially if you were previously known primarily as a terrorist organization.

I mean, come on! You really think that the past three years has seen Hamas become more isolated than they were before? Give me a break man. A few years ago they were relatively nothing... the past three years has seen them use the tools of Oslo (!) to overthrow all of Israel's optimistic expectations for Gaza while validating their movement's grassroots support amongst average Palestinians. The past three years has given them power and influence far beyond anything that any like-minded group has ever achieved before.

Israel CAN'T bring them "into the fold." Hamas is Israel's sworn enemy. It does not want to be brought in the fold unless it is also allowed to kill whatever else is in there. Hamas is not planning on changing their attitude towards Israel regardless of whether or not Israel is nice to them. Think about it. Israel helped bring about Oslo. Hamas opposed Oslo and ramped up terror strikes in order to scuttle it. Israel left Gaza. Hamas took advantage of that fact along with the benefits granted to the Palestinians under Oslo to help get themselves elected. Once elected Hamas began attacking Israel with rockets, (a task made easier by Israel having left Gaza.)

And don't forget... this is how Hamas acted BEFORE Israel shut down the crossings... BEFORE Israel began retaliating against rocket strikes. It is only AFTER Israel took these actions that they were able to wring some semblance of a cease-fire from Hamas. Hasn't the pattern been made clear by now? It is the same every time... Israel makes concessions and violence increases. Israel reacts to violence with oppressive tactics and violence decreases. It is a horrible thing to have to admit, that this is the pattern that's emerged, but there's no disputing the facts. The questions to ask now are, what are we to do about it? Why is it like this? And, how do we change it?

[azurnoir]

54. first off the this has got to be the only DU forum

where the 2000 election results would be disputed or Bushes "win" justified.

When I posted about bringing Hamas into the fold I was not speaking solely of Israel but more so of the international community with emphasis on the US and EU with regards to the economic isolation of Gaza, and in this Israel would a relatively minor player.

As far as your "brutality works" or "they started it" assertions referenced to recent events you leave out the Israeli incursion into Gaza by both ground and air that started the cease fire break down ostensibly because of a tunnel into Israel for the purpose of kidnapping Israelis, so again I ask why did Israel during a cease fire one where it has been documented that Hamas had been trying to control rockets take it upon it self to insert it's military into Gaza rather than inform Hamas of situation and tell them to take of it or else? My last answer was that it did not work with Fatah, some years back.

[Vegasaurus]

56. The truce was broken because tunnels were found yet again

Every time Israel lets up on the restrictions, even a tiny bit, the Palestinian militants take advantage of the situation with increased violence.

Then the restrictions come again.

But the Palesitnians seem not to learn from this cycle. If they stop their violence, their lives improve, but instead of taking advantage of this, they use it as a chance to try to kill or kidnap Israelis.

[azurnoir]

57. so once again you claim

that all Palestinians are responsible for the actions of a few, so in mind it not Hamas but the entire population of Gaza that are terrorists as shown in this statement

But the Palesitnians seem not to learn from this cycle. If they stop their violence, their lives improve, but instead of taking advantage of this, they use it as a chance to try to kill or kidnap Israelis.

thank you for your honesty again

[Vegasaurus]

59. I said Palestinian militants

Please try to keep up.

[azurnoir]

60. Really is that what you said

here is the complete unedited text of your comment as I do not have to paraphrase or edit, your meaning is quite clear you said militants once but then went on to as usual to say that all Palestinians were out to kill Israelis
The truce was broken because tunnels were found yet again

Every time Israel lets up on the restrictions, even a tiny bit, the Palestinian militants take advantage of the situation with increased violence.

Then the restrictions come again.

But the Palesitnians seem not to learn from this cycle. If they stop their violence, their lives improve, but instead of taking advantage of this, they use it as a chance to try to kill or kidnap Israelis.

it is comment # 56 in case anyone wants to double check and the word militant is nowhere to be seen
as far as keeping up LOL best to learn a few things first like how Palestinian elections work and who was voting for whom

[pelsar]

51. really?......got any proof?

or is this one of those vague statements the attempt to show how evil israel is, even though there is nothing behind it:

during that time have only grown more militant and "Islamic extremist" in isolation

how has the "more militant" change shown itself?.....i guess the quiet time when hamas stopped firing kassams is an expression of this increased extremism?

[azurnoir]

53. correct me if I am wrong

but are you not the who was posting about how Hamas has enacted Sharia law in Gaza recently, but I guess that is not extremist? To me it is

[pelsar]

61. you are correct...

hamas has enacted shari law as planned.....since the the creation of hamas that has been their plan....so how is that defined as becoming "more extremist " because of israel?..the very definition of hamas is a islamic defined society, something they have made no secret about and has nothing to do with israel....

i think i follow your logic:

Hamas has always said it wants a islamic society
hamas takes over gaza and starts to slowly implement some changes (as do all new govts)
israel and hamas have some battles
israel and egypt close the border
hamas further implements shari law
israel is at fault

i think that pretty much sums up your logic doesnt it? (btw during the closure it rained in gaza..i guess that is israels fault as well......same logic)

[azurnoir]

62. Thanks for once again telling me what I think or

disingenuously spinning it to fit your "campaign" as I said earlier there is no honest debate with a propagandist or is your thought just that flawed?
edited to add I did consider a more complete answer to the post you were replying to but why bother?

[pelsar]

63. wheres the flaw?

you mentioned that hamas is now more extremists and blamed israel.....

i asked where are they more "extremists"...you mentioned shari law....and i reminded you that implementation has always been hamas plan as its the definition of their movement..and infact they were slowly implementing it once in power, a little bit at a time....

so how is the implementation of ones political platform israels fault?

[shira]

28. clarified perfectly....why should egypt stick their necks out?

"No it is not Egypts problem
why should they stick their necks out, they have done enough already and it has proven a thankless task, but do keep up the "quick look over" attempts at distraction. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x224882#224920
=============================

this is not the language of someone deeply concerned about Palestinians' welfare.

it's such a burden for Egypt, supposedly sticking their necks out to allow UN convoys filled with food through the Rafah crossing.....is that what we'd generally call it if ANY country in the world decided not to allow for UN convoys to pass through their territory?

how is this a burden..... sticking their necks out?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/10/2008106132845762868.html

no outrage by the UN or NGO's for this one....but non-stop indignation for Israel. Why? At least Israel has an excuse. They're being barraged by rockets and mortars...even at the border crossings. Egypt doesn't have any such security concern. So where's the outrage at Egypt?

If Germany and France were being targeted by Luxembourg (same situation as Gaza/Israel) and Germany/France decided to cut off UN trucks, who on earth would apologize for Belgium and say it would be "sticking their necks out" to allow UN trucks on through to Luxembourg....especially if Belgium is neutral or somewhat friendly with Luxembourg and knew that Luxembourg would never attack Belgium at the border crossings, or anywhere for that matter? Belgium would be a no-brainer....and no one would let Luxembourg rot "collectively"....say that Germany/France are 100% responsible and that they are deliberately trying to starve the people of Luxembourg.

Let's face it AZ....you got busted for your phony concern for Palestinians and exposed for making all this a political issue at the expense of Palestinian pawns you could give a shit about.....so long as Israel (the focus of your blind animosity) is always to blame. You clearly want Israel to pay more than you want Palestinians to live decently.

Just like phony UN sympathy....or Amnesty International, Human Rights watch....if they cared so much, they'd have found a way LONG ago to bypass Israel and go through Egypt to feed those "starving" Palestinians. They;d have LAMBASTED Egypt just as much as Israel for this:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/10/2008106132845762868.html

[shira]

29. oh yeah....and then there's Saudi Arabia going through Egypt just 10 days ago

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http://www.paltoday.com/arabic/News-28180.html&tbb=1

11-20-2008 - 01:30 p.m. تاريخ الإضافة : Date Added


Today Palestine - Gaza

وصلت القافلة الثانية من المساعدات السعودية إلى قطاع غزة، اليوم الخميس، تحمل مئات الأطنان من الأرز، بعد أن تسلمت وكالة الغوث الدولية القافلة الأولى من الدقيق الأسبوع الماضي. The convoy reached the second aid from Saudi Arabia to the Gaza Strip today, Thursday, carrying hundreds of tons of rice, after the agency received the first international relief convoy of flour last week.


وثمنت كاثي هاورد، مسؤولة برامج المساعدات بوكالة الغوث الدولية، دور اللجنة السعودية لإغاثة الشعب الفلسطيني، على جهودها المتواصلة في سبيل التخفيف من ظاهرة الفقر والعوز لدى الفلسطينيين. Kathy and praised Howard, responsible aid programs of international relief agency, the role of the Saudi Committee for the Relief of Palestinian People, for their efforts towards alleviation of poverty and destitution among Palestinians.


وذكر مبارك باكرموم، المدير التنفيذي لمجموعة الراية الدولية، وهي الجهة المنفذة لهذه المساعدات في القطاع، أن هذه المساعدات تأتي ضمن جملة من المساعدات السعودية التي تشرف عليها اللجنة السعودية لإغاثة الشعب الفلسطيني، مشيرا إلى أن هناك قافلة ثالثة ستصل الأسبوع المقبل وتحتوي على الحليب المجفف كامل الدسم. Mubarak said Backermom, Executive Director of the Ensign Group International, the operator of such assistance in the sector, that this aid comes in aid from Saudi Arabia inter supervised by the Saudi Committee for the Relief of Palestinian People, noting that there will be a third next week containing dried whole milk Fat.

=====================================================

Clearly, food can go through Egypt to Gaza. It just happened a few days ago. Now what's the big deal letting UN trucks through if Saudi Arabia can send aid through?

Crisis averted.

[shira]

30. turkey wants to break the siege too....

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-11/30/content_10435811.htm

They'll probably be turned back by Israel, just like Libya's boat....nice political game they're playing....but the point is Saudi Arabia got aid through.....what's stopping the UN from sending aid in by different means other than at Israel's borders?

The UN has no excuse....clearly, other Arab states are showing what CAN be accomplished. The UN is just spinning its wheels busy blaming Israel while Rome is burning.

Pitiful.

[azurnoir]

32. Oh yes Turkey is just like Libya

well except for one or two things things

Turkey-Israel relations date to March 28, 1949, when Turkey became the first Muslim country to formally recognize the State of Israel. <1><2> Since then, Israel has been a major supplier of arms to Turkey. Military, strategic, and diplomatic cooperation between Turkey and Israel is accorded high priority by the governments of both countries, which share concerns with respect to the regional instabilities in the Middle East.<3><4><5>

The Israeli and Turkish navies have conducted joint exercises. There is a plan to build a massive pipeline from Turkey to supply water, electricity, gas and oil to Israel.<20> In 2000, Israel and Turkey signed a free-trade agreement.<21>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey-Israel_relations

so ya really think so

[shira]

35. we'll see

I didn't say Turkey is just like Libya....2 completely different situations....however, if this article is right about Turkey coordinating this effort with Hamas, then Israel won't allow them to get a boat through to Gaza. If Turkey coordinates with Israel instead of Hamas, they'd stand a much greater chance of getting aid and supplies through.

[azurnoir]

40. Turkey has been coordinating

with Israel for nearly 60 years, has run military exercises with traded arms with Israel and has a "problem" similar to Israels Palestinian one with the Kurds who Israel has friendly relations with, things in the real world are not always black and white

[Behind the Aegis]

36. No. To my knowledge, Libya is not occupying another area.

Perhaps Israel should send aid to the occupied region of Cyprus. :crazy:

[azurnoir]

39. Huh I was comparing Libya and Turkey n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

45. Yes, I know.

[azurnoir]

48. well then explain

is Greece blocking food shipments to Turkish area in northern Cyprus or is it the reverse? And I thought the stance was that there no "occupation" going in the disputed region we're discussing here Gaza, but if you say so.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. It is very simple.

You said: " yes Turkey is just like Libya well except for one or two things things"

While I recognize your sarcastic remark, I still choose to answer with a "no" as if it were a real statement, despite the fact the previous poster had made no such claim. However, you went on to say there were a couple of differences. I added that one of those things that differentiate the two countries is that one is currently an occupying power (Turkey). The status of Gaza has nothing to do with the comment and is nothing more than a red herring, especially since you again, reiterated "Huh I was comparing Libya and Turkey n/t". And actually you weren't "comparing" but showing their differences, which is what I also did.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

38. Thank you again n/t

[Vegasaurus]

8. The people of Gaza would have plenty of food

if their many, many militants stopped shooting rockets and trying to bomb every Israeli who comes within ten feet of them.

Cause and effect.

Everyone seems to understand except the Palestinian militants.

[cali]

17. bullshit. The condemnation of Israeli actions re Gaza

are widespread. And rightfully.

[shira]

3. Libya

I wonder if Libya will try to get this aid in through Egypt.

It's also worthy to note that Libya could have chosen to send aid like this to just about any other needy country in Africa....but they chose Gaza...how thoughtful of them.

[henank]

4. Gazans say boats had more activists than food

Such hypocrisy. The "activists" are not in this for the good of anyone except themselves and their self-aggrandizement.

Palestinians disappointed, more activists than food