Mumbai reminded me of what happened in Munich.

[Mike 03]

Forgive me, I don't usually post here. But it made me upset when the news anchors kept saying "this is a whole new paradigm."

It's not a new protocol, really, is it?

Isn't this just an elaboration upon what happened at Munich? I was very young when Munich happened, but I did see Spielberg's movie.

I don't know why it made me so angry, but it did.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Difference was

that Jews were the targets in Munich, and the targets in Mumbai included many others. Are we certain yet as to the motives behind the attack?

[Warren Stupidity]

2. I believe this is the first time that a terrorist commando squad

assaulted an entire major city. Yes it is not completely different from Munich, although the goal in Munich was to take hostages to bargain for concessions from the Israelis. The goal for this group appears to have been to kill a lot of people, and to take hostages in order to force a firefight and hostage killing. The Munich attack was a relatively small group of people attacking a single target. The scope of the ground assault in Mumbai is I think pretty much a new paradigm. Offhand I see no reason why similar attacks could not take place in other port cities around the world. The endless stream of cargo ships have long been recognized as a major security threat, however the usual scenario was the smuggling in of a very hard to get and pretty easy to detect nuke, not a commando suicide squad well trained and armed to the teeth with conventional weapons.

[ben_meyers]

3. I said so earlier, all that is missing is Jim McKay.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4550890&mesg_id=4551170

[bemildred]

4. You can go either way with it.

There are some modest differences with what has gone before, but it's not something to get too worked up about. There is no reason to think that the next time it will not be "different" again.

What is noticeable to me is the level of organization, training, motivation, and execution in evidence. I don't mean in any way to approve of it, but you have to be stupid not to notice.

I don't think anything since 9/11 rises to the same level as this and that. My initial reaction to 9/11 was the same, to be impressed with the quality, so to speak, of the attack. Munich was not done as competently, in Munich they wanted to negotiate, these guys did not come to negotiate, they came to kill.

The similarity to Munich is worth noting, however, the show biz factor alone puts it in relation to that. It's sort of terrorist "shock and awe".

It seems very "al Qaeda", whatever that means, though.

[Vegasaurus]

6. There was a great sophistication to the attacks

and the fact that the entire city was under siege for three days.

There has not been another event like it in recent history by al Qaeda or another militant group.

The fact that a Chabad center was targetted has militant Islam written all over these attacks, whatever of the many militant Islamic groups takes responsibility for the attacks.

One way or another, all of these groups are tied back to al Qaeda, and Obama is going to have to deal with their very real and growing threat.

[bemildred]

9. You could say they were well-prepared, clever, and determined.

I seems "al Qaeda like" because of that, because of the size, because it is "claimed" by an unknown group, or nobody, because of the targets chosen, because of the "originality" of the attack; and I think the OP is right that it does bears some similarity to Munich, which is the last time I know of that something of this sort on this scale was done.

[Lithos]

5. I am keeping this thread open

This is nominally against I/P guidelines in that it is not directly based on a recent news or op-ed article. However, outside of GD, there really is no other forum to discuss this question.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Why is this the appropriate forum?

Shouldn't this question be moved to the GD?

What's wrong with that location?

I'm really curious about that.

And why not start with an article? Will those who post here regularly be allowed to start a post every time the loss of life pisses us off?

If you are going to break your own rules, we deserve an explanation of your unspoken beliefs and assumptions that would lead you to believe this is appropriate.

So what is it...? Al-Qaeda = Palestinian resistance? All Muslims hate Jews? Jews are safe nowhere, not abroad and most especially in their own land...?

It's time for an open discussion about the biases which lead to a dramatic change of rules.

[bemildred]

8. Munich was about Israelis and Palestinians.

Anything about either tends to migrate down here 'cause it tends to lead to the same old flame wars.

There are lots of other dungeons about subjects that are similar in that they tend to lead to huge flame wars: Nader, guns, 9/11 theories, to name a couple that I know about. Others like Hugo Chavez tend to start flame wars, but have not been quarantined so far, cause they don't take over the forum.

I have theorized that it is all driven by a desire to reduce the Mods workload to manageable proportions.

Edit: I would not be surprised to see more Mumbai stuff migrate down here, because it has a Jewish connection. So far, it is true, it doesn't have anything to do with Palestinians that I can see.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. IMO, to put that stuff in this forum is to assign some level of responsbility to Palestinians. nt

[bemildred]

11. Never mind. nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. Nothing racist about that though, is there? nt

[Kurska]

13. No, you're right

But to say this attack would have happened if neither zionism or the I/P conflict weren't a factory is foolish in and of itself.

[Vegasaurus]

14. Islamic extremists themselves state that violence and terrorism they commit

worldwide is in response to "ZIONISM" and the IP conflict.

This terrorism isn't in a vacuum. It is perpetrated towards Americans and Israel.

And Jews, worldwide.

Of course all Islamic terrorism has "something" to do with the Palestinians.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. self-delete.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. What is the connection? India and Pakistan have a host of issues between them that have nothing to

with Palestine.

I am not following you.

[Kurska]

20. I wasn't talking about the attack on the whole

Just the specific targeting of a jewish community leader as one part of a much more complex attack. It's doubtlessly true that atleast the reason he was included as a target relates back to the I/P conflict, atleast in some manner.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. How so?

[LeftishBrit]

61. I think it would have happened. But some of the targets would have been different

It seems to have been mostly based on the long ongoing India/Pakistan conflict.

I don't think Zionism/anti-Zionism was a factor in the attacks as a whole; but the decision to target the Chabad Center was obviously based on anti-Israel or anti-semitic sentiment.

[azurnoir]

19. Well could it be here because

at least according to the headlines I've been reading weren't all 5 or 6 victims citizens of Israel or people with dual Israeli/American citizenship? According to the headlines they were apparently the main targets of terrorist weren't they?

Well OK there were a mere 185+ "other" victims but they were mainly Indians and don't they believe in reincarnation anyway not to mention assorted others so who cares? At least not the international M$M anyway.

[oberliner]

37. What are you implying?

I don't know what headlines you have decided to look at, but you suggestion that the press has suggested that all victims were Israeli is unfounded, to say the least.

Every source that I have read indicates that there have been close to 200 killed and that most of them are Indian.

There have been certainly been stories about the attack on the Chabad building - do you not think that should have been covered? Or less so? I don't fully get what your angle is here.

[azurnoir]

44. I am not implying

I am stateing that the M$M especially AP covered the story surrounding the Chabad house almost to the exclusion of the rest of the victims until today, it is not that I do not think that these victims should not have been covered but the amount of coverage that makes me wonder about the motivation behind that, attention grabbing or sympathy inducing or what?

[oberliner]

47. I think that is completely false

I have read numerous articles from the media, including the AP, since the attack occurred that covered numerous different aspects of this tragedy.

[azurnoir]

54. Sorry if I offended

but it seems that the Chabad House aspect was presented as the "human face" of the tragedy, it also could be thatb I have grown oversensitive to any news involving the ME conflict or related subjects and regard it all as "propaganda" for one side or another.

[LeftishBrit]

59. There are many threads about the Mumbai attacks...

It's not surprising that the one that was put in the I/P forum would emphasize the Jewish victims; and would be a focus for legitimate concerns about international antisemitism.

I would fully support the establishment of another I/P forum for India/Pakistan, and on such a forum the focus might be a bit different.

It is likely that the attack was motivated *both* by anti-Indian and by anti-Western (especially Jewish) sentiment - but we may not know more for a while.

I am sure we all agree that all the deaths are horribly tragic.

[azurnoir]

71. the India/Pakistan situation

has been relatively quite for some time now, lets hope it remain as that way as both are have nukes.

[bemildred]

38. There are lots of threads about the Mumbai attacks.

This one was about how it was like Munich, and this one is down here. But you'd have to get it out of a Mod to be sure.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. It works for me!

Now I know if I want all sorts of international stuff that interests me down in the I/P forum where things move a bit slower than upstairs, I've just got to go with the tried and tested formula of saying whatever it is reminds me of Munich. And then the thread with whatever crap OP starts it can happily survive in the I/P forum with no chance of getting vanished or locked...

[bemildred]

40. "You know, that war in Georgia sort of reminds me of Munich."

Or: "Hugo Chavez is just a big Munich waiting to happen."
Something like that?

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Yeah, something along those lines...

I was thinking of popping up in the Travel Group saying 'I was in Munich a year or so back, and hell it reminded me of Munich!' ;)

[bemildred]

42. Well, any sort of air travel definitely reminds me of Munich.

But just think, in a few years we can talk about how this sort of thing reminds us of Mumbai. It will offer a whole new level of insight then.

[azurnoir]

46. I have seen several other threads on Mumbai

over the past few days and most of those were relating to the hostages at the Chabad house not to mention a couple about how "displeased" the Israeli and IDF are about the Indian response to that situation, I am surprised that those did not make it here they seem more applicable.

[bemildred]

51. I'm not defending it as making sense, or being consistent.

I'm just suggesting what seemed to me the probable rationale. I was surprised more of those did not migrate down here, I had anticipated more would. Sometimes it's sort of random I think, what winds up down here, as opposed to what does not. There are things upstairs right now that I don't know why they are still there.

I don't think comparing Mumbai to Munich is a particularly useful insight, there is quite a long history of this sort of thing, and Munich doesn't really seem the best fit. It reminds me of Beslan for example, too, the subway bombings, 9/11, but I could come up with lots of others.

What is striking is the quality of planning, preparation and execution, and the size of the target.

[azurnoir]

53. Mumbai has had a number of attacks

in recent years and it is one of India's major cities it;s port handles half of India;s sea going cargo along with being a major financial center.
What a have not seen is the number of terrorist involced in this attack albeit I get the impression it was a relatively small number who pulled this off, perhaps under 20 which is quite frightening.

[bemildred]

70. Yes, India has quite a bit of terrorism going on, and it's not all Jihadi/Muslim.

There has been a good deal of activity in Gujarat and Assam, for example, bombings and such. The Hindu nationalists go bonkers with some regularity. But the targeting of Chabad gives it a different slant, or appears to at least.

Twenty is about all you want. That's about what they had for 9/11, eh? A group of twenty, to start with, and they split into groups and wreak havoc? But the more you have, the harder it is to keep secret, and the larger the logisitics issues, and so on, so you don't want it even a smidgen bigger than you need.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

67. Still hoping Lithos will explain why the rules were broken to accomodate this thread.

Why here?

Why no op-ed or news piece to start the thread?

What do you believe is the connection between this and the I/P conflict?

[Violet_Crumble]

110. Maybe he's sitting back having a laugh at the terrorism "experts" coming out of the woodwork?

Yeah, I also noted the rather bizarre decision to leave this open despite it not complying with the posting guidelines and only having the most tenuous of links with the I/P conflict, while other threads (notably the long-lived one on Olmert's long-ago promise to remove outposts) that do comply are either vanished or locked. Bottom line is it's more rewarding to sit back and have a laugh at some of the silliness in this thread than ask questions of the mods which won't get answered coz the mods are like an absolute monarch and what they decide goes no matter how little sense the decision makes. So do what I do and use the thread to entertain yrself. Make a bet with a friend to see how many microseconds it takes for one particularly predictable poster to blindly insist that Jews were the main target and the attacks have nothing to do with India/Pakistan coz like Muslims hate Jews and like dontcha know there were no Muslim victims of these attacks. That's coz Muslims hate Jews and want to kill them but they love other Muslims!! Anyway, I won the bet I made!! ;)

I spotted two, maybe three people in this thread who are capable of having an intelligent and rational discussion about terrorism, but the rest of it'ss nothing but white noise by people who suddenly make out they're experts on terrorism in India and apparently have some great insight into the area of Mumbai that was attacked, even though more than likely they've never been to India coz they've watched the Amazing Race and took to heart American Crass Grrrl from Series 8 or 9's mega-whinge in front of Indians who most likely understood English that like it's sooooo smelly and crowded in India and everyone just pushes and shoves and it's soooo rude!!

Anyway, I must dash and add some bullshit-flavoured fuel to the fire by claiming that the terrorists in the train station demanded to know everyone's religion before they killed them and didn't kill Muslims. No-one will notice it's bullshit, coz there's so much bullshit in this thread already that it'll be lapped up just like the rest of it has...

[Mike 03]

121. I apologize for posting this here. I really did not read the rules, and

I am sorry if this was offensive to you or anyone here. It was honestly a mistake on my part.

[Mike 03]

119. Thank you, I appreciate it. In retrospect, perhaps I should have

broached this subject in GD.

Thank you.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Yeah, how could it not?

Munich starts with an M. Mumbai starts with an M and they both have six letters in their names! The eerie similarities will probably become more profound when in a few years Spielberg makes a movie about Mumbai starring Eric Bana!

Apart from it being an act of international terrorism, the similarities are more towards the London bombings, which were also highly co-ordinated, aimed at maximum casualties and involved multiple simultaneous targets...

[oberliner]

17. Shooting, hostage taking, unsuccesful rescue attmept, hostages killed

It wasn't a bombing like what happened in London.

When was the last time there was an attack like this involving gunmen?

Munich was not the first thing that came to mind for me when reading about Mumbai, however I do think there are more similarities than just that they both start with "M".

[Violet_Crumble]

24. I explained what the differences were...

And I explained what makes it much more similar to London. Are you disputing that? So what if different weapons were used. Since when is that such a huge difference?

Munich definately wasn't the first thing that came to mind, and I have to wonder why it would be for the person who posted this thread in this forum...

btw,I didn't say there weren't more similarities than they both start with 'm'

[Kurska]

22. Could you be any less sensitive to the scores of people brutally murdered? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

25. WTF? I wasn't insensitive. Take a chill pill...

Do you have anything other than personal insults to offer?

[shira]

21. Turkish couple let off by terrorists for being Muslims

"All the hostages were asked to reveal their religion. When the Muezzinoglus said they were Muslims, their captors told them that they would not be harmed. The other three Caucasian women were removed from the room next day, and the terrorists informed the Muezzinoglus that they had been shot."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3766609.cms

So much for these terrorists targeting solely for political purposes. They're religious bigots just as Nasrallah from 2 years ago:

Hezbollah leader apologizes for attack's child victims
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/20/nasrallah.interview/index.html

random jews and non-muslims are, of course, the preferred targets of these religious extremist assholes....the politics are secondary.

[shira]

55. Israelis specifically targeted to avenge Palestinians

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai_locals_helped_us_terrorist_tells_cops/articleshow/3774106.cms

"Kasab has told police that they were sent with a specific mission of targeting Israelis to avenge atrocities on Palestinians. This was why they targetted Nariman House, a complex meant for Israelis. Sources said Kasab's colleagues killed in the operation had stayed in Nariman House earlier."

[Vegasaurus]

73. And herein lies the reason that the Mumbai attacks are related to the I/P situation nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

66. Take off the tin foil hat, Shira!

I don't think Nasrallah was involved in this.

[shira]

68. lay off the meds PM...

...I never claimed Nasrallah was behind this

[ProgressiveMuslim]

74. Why bring him up in conjunction?

[shira]

75. read that post again and you'll see why...

...but it doesn't imply in any way that Nasrallah is behind Mumbai.

The point was to show religious extremist hatred. Muslims aren't targets of the Mumbai terrorists or Nasrallah. Just Jews. Not Israelis. Not Indians/westerners. Just non-muslim infidels.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

76. Nice try. Some countries actually have a legitimate beef with Israel -- Lebanon being one. nt

[shira]

78. Nasrallah's legit beef is just as much with the 20% of....

...Israelis that are not Jews than the 80% that are. Is that what you're saying?

[Vegasaurus]

77. Of course.

Because the Mumbai attacks weren't about grievances between India and Pakistan, about Kashmir, or anything of the sort.

They were anti-Western, anti-American, anti-Zionist and mostly anti-Jewish, as all Islamic terrorism is.

[LeftishBrit]

79. Are these things mutually exclusive?

It could have been mainly about the India/Pakistan conflict, but because extreme Islamists were involved, general anti-Western xenophobia and antisemitism got mixed in as well.

I suspect that this involves certain Pakistanis who don't like India, and also don't like the current Pakistani government's move in a more secularist, pro-Western direction than previously. But we shall no doubt get more information.

[Vegasaurus]

80. If it were only about Pakistanis who don't like India

a Chabad center (ie., Jewish center) would not have been a target.

The fact that it was carefully selected clearly shows that the Islamic extremists wanted to target Jews, and that the attack wasn't at all about a Pakistan/India internal conflict.

[shira]

81. yes, this was all a bigoted hate crime

The captured terrorist who said they asked if anyone was Muslim, and didn't harm them if so, is proof of this.

[azurnoir]

83. Perhaps you need to learn a bit about the history

behind these attacks and while they were not targeting Muslims they were contrary to your prior claim targeting westerners in general not just Jews.

We'll start here

The 1993 Bombay bombings were a series of thirteen bomb explosions that took place in Bombay (now Mumbai), India on March 12, 1993.<3> The coordinated attacks were the most destructive bomb explosions in Indian history. The single-day attacks resulted in up to 250 civilian fatalities and 700 injuries.<4> The attacks are believed to have been coordinated by Dawood Ibrahim, don of the organized crime syndicate named D-Company, which had operated as a terrorist organization.<5> It is believed that the attacks were carried out in retaliation for widespread massacre of Muslims in Mumbai during December and January, and also the demolition of the Babri Masjid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Bombay_bombings

The mosque was destoyed by Hindu nationalists

However that was 15 years ago so moving to recent events

Anyone remember this, it was wiped from front pages by events in Lebanon and Israel the next day July 12 2006

In 2006, Mumbai was also the site of a 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings in which over two hundred people were killed when several bombs exploded almost simultaneously on the Mumbai Suburban Railway.<20>

The 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings were a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai (formerly Bombay), capital city of the Indian state of Maharashtra and the nation's financial capital. The bombs were set off in pressure cookers on trains plying on the western line of the Suburban Railway network. 209 people lost their lives and over 700 were injured. According to Mumbai Police, the bombings were carried out by Lashkar-e-Toiba and Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI).<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_July_2006_Mumbai_train_bombings

the fact is that this attack is not a singular incident but part of an on going struggle between Hindu's who like it or not make up the lions share of the victims in this most recent attack and Muslims in India and Pakistan, it has also been said that this same group Lashkar-e-Toiba may well be responsible for the terrorist attack.

[shira]

84. okay.....and they ALSO went out of their way to kill Jews

otherwise they could have used that extra manpower to make more of a statement against India and the West.

Kinda like Germany choosing to use its manpower in the extermination camps rather than use that manpower out on the front lines.

Pure hate.

[azurnoir]

85. Oh geez invoke the Holocaust

cheap shot, so the "other" what 160 or so victims were simply stepping stones to get to Jews who were obviously the main target all along puleez

Note I have read revised numbers about the total dead the low one being 174 I have also read conflicting numbers as to Jew2s/Israelis killed from 3 to 9

Jews were among the victims or targets but certainly not the central ones

[shira]

86. jews weren't the only central targets 70 yrs ago either

but they were deliberately targeted due to hate.......but then again, if you see racism, slow motion genocide (my favorite) and apartheid by Israel against Palestinians, and the lack of a hate crime against Jews in Mumbai, there isn't much else to say.

[azurnoir]

93. I see your a BTA fan

no surprise there and one can only imagine what else your a fan of I'll have to check maybe
However I digress it was a cheap shot to invoke the Holocaust and if you had lost either family members or ever known any Holocaust survivors you would would also know that.
As far as Jews not being the only victims I also well aware of that fact also as members of my maternal Grandmothers family wee among the non-Jewish victims Roma, that we know of none of my Fathers who is Jewish family died as his family had been in the US for 100+ years at the time of the Holocaust. I did not say Jews were not victims but Jews were not the central focus in the Mumbai attacks either.

[shira]

103. cheap shot invoking holocaust?

oh, i can do even better than just bring up the holocaust. have you read this doozy yet?

http://proxify.com/p/011010A0000110/http:=2f=2fwww.democraticunderground.com=2fdiscuss=2fduboard.php=3faz=3dview_all=26address=3d124x225964

hope you didn't yawn, roll your eyes, or just shrug your shoulders at that one.

this savage hate has been happening the past 2000+ years.....and yes, i had family murdered in the holocaust.....you guys are quite amazing telling jews just what is and isn't antisemitic, or on par with other barbaric, mindless atrocities against jews, etc. Of course you know better than jews just what is and isn't demonic anti-semitic hate in its most pure form. That's sarcasm in case you're not aware.

[azurnoir]

105. The only yawn here is that BTA already posted the piece

no the condition of bodies does not surprise me nor does the part at the end about the condition of the bodies of the terrorists, it is all despicable no matter who is doing the torture.
As far as your 2000 year claim sorry Islam did not exist until 1400 years ago.
Your sarcasm? well what ever I'll take you at your word in the statement

[shira]

106. ignorance

jew hatred precedes islam by many centuries.....and it is hardly limited only to islamic jihadis....sorry to see that BTA's post evoked a yawn out of you.

[azurnoir]

107. Ignorance?

The yawn was that I had read the article only minutes earlier not as you try to assert the content, however the "Jew Hatred" you describe prior to the Diaspora was not the Antisemitism we see today but more a clash of empires you know Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Babylonia these wars were based on conquest not hatred of Jews. it took Christianity to initiate the modern form of Antisemitism.

[shira]

112. gosh

what would we jews do without you educating us on our history and lecturing about what is and isn't really antisemitism? do you do this with blacks or muslims too?

antisemitism actually precedes christianity, fyi.........but keep trying.

[azurnoir]

114. So you have set yourself up as the judge

as to who is a Jew and who is not wow I wish I had known sooner. I did not know I was dealing with an expert but according to strict interpretation of the "law" your right I am not being that is my Father and not my Mother who is a Jew or is this something more political please enlighten me. As to I find it difficult in this case to call it "our" history but interpret however you need if you wish to believe Greek and Roman conquest antisemitism be my guest but there are other aspects to that history especially the Greek that would say otherwise.

[shira]

115. oops

sorry, i missed reading that your father was jewish....i have trouble reading your posts sometimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism#Early_animosity_towards_Jews

check that one out.

[azurnoir]

96. An addendum

I would disagree during the time of the Nazis Jews were indeed the central targets the other groups Gays, communists, Roma, and Slavic people in general were peripheral to that the camps were built primarily to exterminate Jews

[shira]

104. to the addendum

i should have written that killing Jews was as much a goal for hitler than defeating the allies and expanding greater Germany.....the fact that so much manpower was utilized for the murder of jews instead of using that manpower to fight or defend against the allies proves my point.

now to Mumbai....same thing....why focus on a chabad house at all if the goal is to make a political point? imagine the coordination and time required to pull off this stunt....chabad was in a gated, secured area...it wasn't as easy as walking right through the door....the terrorists got in by stealing a police car and driving that in through the gate and into the compound, located on a narrow side street, not in plain view with blinking neon lights. This was not about just politics between India/Pakistan. To go out of the way, and plan and commit this evil goes to show this was definitely a MAJOR part of their operation.

just a nasty hate crime....they weren't even targeting Israelis as much as Jews.

[Vegasaurus]

87. The terrorists killed as many people as they could

No one is disputing that fact.

But nor is anyone knowledgable about the events disputing the fact that the terrorists' deliberately targetting a fairly well hidden Jewish center, one that most residents of Mumbai did not even realize existed, indicates that behind this attack was usual Islamic anti-semitism.

The fact is further clarified by the fact that Muslims were not killed.

Jews were targetted, in a small and remote center that has no prominence in Indian society, while Muslims were spared.

[azurnoir]

94. Fairly well hidden?

Are you saying that Jews in Mumbai were living in hiding? Well for being hidden as you claim this little tidbit is a surprise

Sources in India also claimed that the terrorists stayed in the Chabad House earlier by posing as Malaysian students. Police are trying to ascertain whether the Chabad House would have rented rooms to non-jews.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/156635

I have read this from other sources as well but chose this one because it so right wing

As far as the rest you spin and accuse but I am not the discounting the deaths of others because they do not belong to a certain group or trying to further demonize a group because they were not killed or targeted as chose to call it.

[Vegasaurus]

97. The terrorists had scoped out the area months before, but were not staying at Nariman House

"A native of Faridkot in Pakistan- occupied Kashmir, Azam revealed the names of his fellow terrorists, all Pakistani citizens: Abu Ali, Fahad, Omar, Shoaib, Umer, Abu Akasha, Ismail, Abdul Rahman (Bara) and Abdul Rahman (Chhota).

But the 10 men were apparently not the only ones directly involved: Another group, he claimed, had checked themselves into hotels four days before, waiting with weapons and ammunition they had stockpiled in the rooms.

The 10 men in Azam's group were chosen well: All were trained in marine warfare and had undergone a special course conducted by the Lashkar-e-Taiba. Preparations were also detailed, and started early.

Azam and eight others in the team made a reconnaissance trip to Mumbai several months before the attacks, pretending to be Malaysian students. They rented an apartment at Colaba market, near one of their targets, the Nariman House.

The chief planner of the attacks also visited Mumbai a month before to take photographs and film strategic locations, including the hotel layouts.

Returning to Pakistan, the chief plotter trained the group, telling them to 'kill till the last breath'."

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/world/13499-terrorists-posed-as-malaysian-students

[oberliner]

88. Mumbai terrorists targeted Israelis to avenge "atrocities"

New Delhi - The only terrorist captured by Indian security agencies after the Mumbai siege has said that their mission specifically targeted Israelis to avenge the 'atrocities' against Palestinians, a newspaper report said Sunday.

Azam Amir Kasab, 21, told the investigators that they targeted the Jewish Centre in the Nariman House in south Mumbai, where many Israelis come and stay during their visits to India, the Times of India report said.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1445760.php/Mumbai_terrorists_targeted_Israelis_to_avenge_"atrocities"_

[azurnoir]

95. I have not claimed that Jews were not targeted

I have said repeatedly that Jews were not the main target nor the only target that matters as some here seem to think and for the record I would be offended if any group were so singled out as being somehow more important than another in a case of this magnitude.

[LeftishBrit]

90. It doesn't need to be either

'ONLY about Pakistanis who don't like India' or 'not AT ALL about a Pakistan/India internal conflict'.

It could be partly a Pakistan/India internal conflict, but involving extreme Islamists who also hate Jews (and to some degree all non-Muslims and Westerners).

So far it looks like combining both. But we may find out more soon.

Whatever the exact combination of motives, it's evil all round.

[Vegasaurus]

92. Yes, it is evil all around

But we cannot ignore this rampant anti-Zionism, anti-semitism, pro-murder of Jews, that exists among militant Islamists, and even everyday Arabs and Muslims.

There is much violence and the world that is perpetrated as a result of this hatred, including terrorism in Mumbai, that is far from Tel Aviv or Sderot.

If this had been an act simply by Pakistanis towards Indians, in response to the situation in Kashmir, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But attacks on a remote, relatively unknown Jewish center certainly makes the identity and ideology of the attackers much more in line with al Qaida and other Islamic militants (including Hezbollah and Hamas).

[shaayecanaan]

98. Absolute rubbish

and absolutely contrary to the facts.

The Wikipedia entry on Lashkar e Toiba, the group responsible for the Mumbai attacks, shows that predominantly attacks have been against Hindu and Sikh targets, and that the group is primarily concerned with the Kashmiri dispute:-

1. In March 2000, Lashkar-e-Taiba militants are claimed to have been involved in the Chittisinghpura massacre, where 35 Sikhs in the town of Chittisinghpura in Kashmir were killed. An LeT militant who was arrested in December of the year admitted to the involvement of the group and had no regret in perpetrating the anti-Sikh massacre<40>.
2. 2005 London bombings: Links to Lashkar-e-Taiba<41> and Al-Qaeda involved.
3. 2005 Delhi bombings: During Diwali, Lashkar-e-Taiba bombed crowded festive Delhi markets killing 60 civilians and maiming 527.<42>
4. 2006 Varanasi bombings: Lashkar-e-Taiba was involved in serial blasts in Hindu city in the state of Utter Pradesh. Thirty seven people died and 89 were seriously injured.<43>
5. 2006 Mumbai train bombings: The investigation launched by Indian forces and US officials have pointed to the involvement of Lashkar-e-Taiba in Mumbai serial blasts on 11 July 2006. The Mumbai serial blasts on 11th July claimed 211 lives and maimed about 407 people and seriously injured another 768.<44><45>
6. 2006 blasts at Malegaon: The investigation, presently in its early stages, point to the Lashkar-e-Taiba as suspects. They have had connections with Malegaon's radical Islamist organisations.<11> Alternate theories involving the Bajrang Dal as the perpetrators are also being considered,<46> however, no evidence points to the involvement of Bajrang Dal,<47> and the modus operandi of the attacks are more consistent with Islamist terror outfits such as the Lashkar-e-Taiba.<48>
7. On September 12, 2006 the propaganda arm of the Lashkar-e-Taiba issued a fatwa against the Christian Pope Benedict XVI demanding that Muslims assassinate him for his controversial statements about Muhammad<49> (for details see Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy).
8. On September 16, 2006, a top Lashkar-e-Taiba militant, Abu Saad, was killed by the troops of 9-Rashtriya Rifles in Nandi Marg forest in Kulgam. Saad belongs to Lahore in Pakistan and also oversaw LeT operations for the past three years in Gul Gulabhgash as the outfit's area commander. Apart from a large quantity of arms and ammunition, high denomination Indian and Pakistani currencies were also recovered from the slain militant.<50>
9. On July 31, 2008, Webnewswire, a leading Indian newswire, released 'Undisputed proof that Lashker-e-Taiba is (or was) based in Pakistan.' It lists information available in public sources such as archive.org to prove that the organisation was based in Pakistan. <51>
10. In November 2008, Lashkar-e-Taiba has been suspected but has denied to be a part of the Mumbai attacks<52>. According to reports, the lone terrorist captured by Indian authorities now admits the attacks were planned and executed by the terrorist organization.<53><54> US intelligence sources have confirmed that there is mounting evidence that Lashkar-e-Taiba is behind the attacks.

As other press commentators have made clear, there is an abundance of Jewish or Israeli targets in Mumbai and India. For example, most Israelis after their military service go on backpacking trips to India, Burma or Thailand, and there are numerous backpacking hostels and eateries that cater largely or in some instances almost exclusively for Israelis. If killing Israelis was their raison d'etre, they would obviously aim for targets such as this, rather than for railway stations and hospitals, which is where the attacks were focused and where the clear majority of people were killed.

[oberliner]

99. Indo-Israeli trade ties the real target

MUMBAI: Clearly, the warmth was beginning to get stifling. The terror attack at Mumbai’s Jewish centre appears to have been aimed at breaking the
increasing bonhomie between India and Israel.

The increased collaboration between the two countries was more than evident: two Indian companies were on the verge of signing large deals with the Israeli government and a large delegation of Israeli businessmen and industrialists was scheduled to visit Mumbai in December.

<snip>

The terrorists’ choice of the Israeli centre in Mumbai could partly be driven by the fact that a large number of Israeli companies have, over the past three years, invested in the property market around Mumbai. There are many property deals either in the pipeline or at various stages of completion.

Jerusalem Economic Corporation (JEC), through its Indian subsidiary, was eyeing a huge tract of farm land in Thane district. The deal size could be around $300 million, sources say.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/Indo-Israeli_trade_ties_the_real_target/rssarticleshow/3771494.cms

[bemildred]

100. Nah, this is about Pakistan. Watch and see.

Not that the attack on the Chabad center was random, it was not, but it was just opportunistic.

[oberliner]

101. There seems to have been a number of different issues/motives

Hopefully it will not lead to a major military conflict between India and Pakistan.

It will be interesting to see where the Indian government places the blame for these attacks and what action they deem necessary in response.

[bemildred]

102. We'll see.

I think the notion that this was to relieve pressure on the tribal areas by increasing Indian pressure on Pakistan/Kashmir etc. works the best. And then, targets of opportunity and anything likely to crank up the pressure get added. This was not about sending a message, this was about pressure, about driving a wedge into a fracture. The objective is chaos, the fragmentation of Pakistan, the compromising of the supply lines into Afghanistan, etc. Obama wants to DEAL with Afghanistan, but he cannot do that without supply lines running through the Khyber Pass, as things stand now. And things are not good there already. He will have to suck up to Russia or Iran - which may well be possible - or he won't be able to manage logistics support for Afghanistan. Meanwhile, attempting to stabilize Pakistan could wind being a third war.

The thing that bothers me is that this must have been in preparation for some time, the timing in either very lucky or very well planned, it must have been forseen, there are elections in India going on, Obama is still not in power. Or it might be something that was prepared and ready, and somebody decided this was the time to do it. And that's scary too.

[shaayecanaan]

108. No

the Chabad centre was targeted (and I do not doubt that it was specifically targeted) for the same reason that Osama always puts in a remark or two about the Palestinians in his snuff tape fireside chats. Its good PR, despite the fact that Al-Qaeda have targeted Brits, Americans, Iraqis, Afghanis, Spaniards, and Africans, but as yet neither Israelis nor Jews.

Likewise, Lakshar e Toiba have been merrily killing Indians for over six years, making Indians second only to Iraqis in terms of the highest death toll from terrorist attacks.

LeT have figured out what al-Qaeda figured out a long time ago. No one gives a shit if you kill several hundred Africans outside the American embassy in Dar-es-Salaam, or if you kill several hundred Indians on a train, or if you kill Sinhalese Sri Lankans in a market stall in Colombo.

But if you manage to kill Westerners, the world's attention will be yours.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Terrorists join forces

THE terrorist massacres in Mumbai this week are India's 9/11.

The parallels with the 2001 attacks in New York are eerie. They represent a devastating terrorist attack on a central Indian landmark, the Taj Hotel, in India's commercial capital, Mumbai.

They represent, too, a probably definitive merger of internal Indian conflicts with the global war on terror. They also represent a formal notice of combat to the American president-elect, Barack Obama. The implications for the US of these attacks are in fact enormous.

But the primary victims are Indians, with 130 people killed and more than 300 injured.

There is much still to be discovered, but as the hours have rolled by since the attacks began in the early hours of Thursday morning, the Pakistan connection has become clearer and clearer.

One of the terrorists was captured alive and says he came from Pakistan. One of the terrorists rang Indian television from the Oberoi Hotel. He spoke with a Pakistani accent and used terms that Indians seldom use. The police intercepted telephone conversations among the terrorists and found they were speaking Pakistani-style Punjabi.

The name - Deccan Mujahedeen - of the group that claimed responsibility for the attacks appears to have been a ruse to mislead.

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh says the attackers had external linkages. The Indian military has let it be known that it believes the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Toiba, which has more than once tried to attack Australians, was deeply involved.

US intelligence, on the other hand, believes the attacks bear the unmistakable signs of al-Qa'ida.

Pramit Chaudhuri, senior editor of the Hindustan Times and one of India's most brilliant and influential strategic analysts, outlines a different theory.

He tells The Weekend Australian the attack could have been a combined effort by LeT and al-Qa'ida.

"That would explain the schizophrenic nature of the Mumbai attacks," Pramit tells me. "If you look at the attacks, half were directed entirely at killing Indians. Going to the railway station and the hospital, you won't find foreigners there. That's exactly the sort of attack the LeT engages in.

"The other half of the attacks were directed entirely at foreigners. Indian Muslims have never attacked foreigners and never attacked Jewish targets, of which there are plenty in India. The attackers at the Taj Hotel were interested only in Americans and Brits. There was a guy there with an Italian passport and they let him go. They weren't interested in Indians at all in that attack.

"Then the attack on the Chabad House. This is a New York Jewish organisation. They weren't even looking for Indian Jews but going after an American organisation."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24722489-5013460,00.html

Bolding's mine.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. List of victims by nationality...

Indian 173
American 4
Australian 4
German 3
Canadian 2
French 2
Israeli-Americans 2
Israeli 2
British 1
Spanish 1
Chinese 1
Italian 1
Japanese 1
Jordanian 1
Malaysian 1
Singaporean 1
Thai 1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_victims_of_the_November_2008_Mumbai_attacks

[oberliner]

28. AFP indicates that 9 Israelis were killed

Nine Israelis killed in Mumbai attacks: ministry

JERUSALEM (AFP) — Nine Israelis were killed in the attacks by Islamist militants that caused carnage in the Indian commercial capital Mumbai, a foreign ministry spokesman said on Saturday.

"Eight bodies have been identified as being those of Israelis, some of them with dual Israeli and US nationality," the spokesman said.

"All eight were killed in Chabad House," said Yigal Palmor, referring to a Jewish cultural centre that was stormed by Indian commandos on Friday.

"A ninth victim has been identified by a relative, but initial information suggests that this person was not in Chabad House, and was not on the list of missing persons," he added.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iyHYP3siL1mWWCwF2Pj_TTLuexhg

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Do you think other nationalities death tolls will rise?

Oh yeah, but now this thread is in the I/P forum, all that matters is Israelis and Jews....

[oberliner]

30. I have no idea

I don't know what you are implying when you sarcastically remark that "all that matters is Israelis and Jews"

Do you think that Israelis and/or Jews were targeted deliberately by the attackers?

Of the Westerners killed, they seem to make up a sizable percentage. Do you think it is coincidental?

[Violet_Crumble]

31. You haven't checked the media for others?

Why not? You obviously checked when it came to Israelis...

btw, my remark wasn't sarcastic. All it takes it a read through a few of the posts in this thread to see it's the thinking of a few folk...

Western interests and Indians in general were the targets in this attack, and no, Israelis and Jews did NOT make up a sizeable percentage of victims...

[oberliner]

33. I've read everything that I could find about all the victims of all nationalities

This link may prove more helpful than your wikipedia list if you (or anyone else) would like to learn more about those victims:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/At_least_22_non-Indians_dead_in_Mumbai_attacks/articleshow/3773174.cms

I really have no idea if the numbers will rise or not. Maybe they will. Hopefully they won't.

Israelis and Jews appear to make up about one-third of the non-Indians who were killed in this attack.

That seems to be a pretty sizable percentage.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Why only focus on non-Indians?

That's what I found so offensive after the Bali Bombings - that the vast majority of the dead were Indonesian, but all most people seemed to care about were the foreigners....

No offense, Oberliner, but the way yr playing with numbers here reminds me a lot of the way our media carries on every Olympics when it comes to the medal tally, where numbers are crunched and if you take this or that out of the equation or work it out another way, we go to the top of the list. I find it a bit off when so many people have died from so many nationalities and walks of life to be doing something like that. If it's anything like the Bali Bombings, it's going to be a fair while yet before things have settled down enough for all casualties to be accounted for...

[oberliner]

43. The majority of people killed were Indian and their deaths are as tragic as anyone else's

I don't see where you got the idea that I felt otherwise.

I also do not see what that has to do with the unusually high percentage of Jewish people among the non-Indians who were killed.

The locations the terrorist selected to carry out this attack were two hotels and a Jewish community center.

Why do you think the Chabad House was chosen as a target?

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Correct. Their deaths are just as tragic so why remove them from the equation?

I don't think you can see what I was talking about in my previous post about how off I find the discarding of local victims in favour of focusing on foreigners, because you just went and did it again in yr second line of the post...

All the targets bar the train station and hospital were chosen because they were places where foreigners gathered or as the article I posted (you should read it) said, were owned by Americans...

[oberliner]

49. They are not removed from any equation

I don't believe what I did in the second line of my post was "discarding local victims in favour of focusing on foreigners". The tragic deaths of almost 200 Indians in this horrific attack is absolutely horrible.

Does the fact that most of the victims were Indian mean that folks are unable to engage in a conversation about the other people who were also killed?

Anyone is welcome to start a post outside of the I/P forum that focuses on the Indian victim of the attacks (or respond to an existing one).

As this is the I/P forum, it seems that this would be the logical place to discuss the elements of this attack that are related to Israelis and/or Palestinians.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. Yes they were...

When you repeat the same thing again and again about how out of non-Indians, Israelis account supposedly for a large percentage, there's no other way to describe that as other than removing the Indian victims from the equation. No-one has said that you are unable to engage in discussion about other people killed, but I will point out again that it looks really off when the way it's done is to ignore or excise the massive number of Indian casualties...

As this is the I/P forum, this thread should never have been dumped here to give people so fucking obsessed with Jews and Israel a chance to turn the attacks into yet another round of It's All About Israel And Jews! btw, Oberliner, I saw you start plenty of threads upstairs focusing on Israeli and Jewish victims of the attacks. Why do you feel there's some burning need to have yet another thread in yet another forum devoted to it?

[oberliner]

52. I didn't post this thread in this forum

But as it is here, I don't see what the problem is in having what is clearly a conversation that you are not interested in having vis-a-vis the Israelis who were killed in this attack.

If this incident had included an attack on a Gay and Lesbian Center, I would think that someone for whom Gay and Lesbian issues were important might want to discuss that particular aspect of the attack, even if the majority of those killed were not homosexual.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. I didn't say you did...

Fine. You don't see what the problem is with excising and ignoring the fact that the vast majority of victims were Indians. Because that's what my issue is with yr posts, not anything else. And you know something? In yr GLBT scenario, I most definately would find it offensive if someone were to discuss it by making comments indicating the straight victims were to be ignored in order to make out that the GLBT victims make up some stunning percentage of victims. And that's what you've been doing in this thread. There's no difference between that and much of the stuff I saw after the Bali Bombings where the Indonesian victims were basically ignored while people went on about the victims who were foreigners...

[LeftishBrit]

60. No one is saying that the Indian victims should be ignored!

If you feel that insufficient attention is being paid to them, why don't you:

(1) go to one of the upstairs forums and post on some of the threads about the disaster as a whole;

(2) start your own thread about the disaster on one of the upstairs forums

and/or

(3) propose the setting up of a dedicated India/Pakistan forum. I would support such a proposal.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. Of course they're not saying to ignore them. They're merely doing it...

Or is there some other way to explain why all sorts of statistical wrangling happened with the Indian victims being taken out of the equation the way they were?

You ask why I don't post upstairs about Mumbai? Why the hell should I when I rarely post upstairs anyway? After all, it's kicking on here in the I/P forum, so there's no need to travel. btw, I think a few folk have lost sight of what this thread was originally supposed to be about...

[LeftishBrit]

63. Well, you won't like me saying this...

but frankly, aren't YOU ignoring people outside Israel/Palestine by the very fact that you 'rarely post upstairs' and respond to such a suggestion with 'why the hell should I?'? Threads in Israel/Palestine generally focus on Israel or Palestine or both. Threads in the upstairs forums focus more on other people and issues.

Of course, you have every right to focus your interest on Israel/Palestine and post mainly in this forum; but then it seems a bit unfair to compain that others seem to have a restricted focus on Israel or Palestine.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. Doesn't bother me since you've totally missed the point....

This may be a shocker but most of the time my away from the computer commitments counts me out of getting involved in anything upstairs, given its fast moving nature. Why I need to justify to you why I don't have the time to post upstairs is something I'm not quite clear on, but there ya go. I didn't start this thread, kind of don't get why it was started in this forum or left open, and more than anything don't get why you seem to believe that taking offense at exactly the same sort of attitude that happened after the Bali Bombings equates to complaining about others seeming to have a restricted focus on Israel or Palestine...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

65. Perhaps the Jewish forum is the appropriate place for these discussion.

How is the I/P conflict related?

[shira]

69. I/P is related to this....see post #55

.

[oberliner]

89. The mission specifically targeted Israelis to "avenge atrocities against Palestinians"

That is according to Azam Amir Kasab, the only attacker who was captured by Indian authorities.

[oberliner]

82. I am not making comments indicating that any victims should be ignored

And I resent that accusation.

There is an Israeli component to this tragedy. Is there no way to discuss that aspect of what happened without being accused of ignoring the other victims?

Not even in the I/P forum which is the current location of this particular thread?

[Violet_Crumble]

109. Then why make comments discarding Indian victims?

And here again is where you said it: 'Of the Westerners killed, they seem to make up a sizable percentage.' and 'Israelis and Jews appear to make up about one-third of the non-Indians who were killed in this attack.' Yep, and if there'd been 40 New Zealanders killed as well, the line would have been tweaked again to say 'Israelis and Jews appear to make up about one-third of the non-Indians and non-Kiwis who were killed in this attack.' What it boils down to when it comes to the nationalities of foreigners and the numbers killed is sheer pot-luck. There was a trade delegation from NSW staying at the Taj Mahal. If all forty or so of them had of been in the restaurant or the foyer, there'd be a lot more dead Australians than the two (or four depending on which media outlet you read) who were killed. And the nationalities of the dead don't really cast any light on the motivation for the attack....

Didn't you read the post where I told you how easy it was to discuss the Israeli aspect of this tragedy without coming across like yr ignoring the Indian victims? Yeah, I did and here it is again:

'When you repeat the same thing again and again about how out of non-Indians, Israelis account supposedly for a large percentage, there's no other way to describe that as other than removing the Indian victims from the equation. No-one has said that you are unable to engage in discussion about other people killed, but I will point out again that it looks really off when the way it's done is to ignore or excise the massive number of Indian casualties...'

So, if yr unable or unwilling to discuss the Israeli aspect without trying to make out that Israelis and Jews were the main targets by excising the massive number of Indian dead from the equation, then you can resent all you like when it gets pointed out to you that it's exactly what yr doing...

Oh, and to save myself doing another post, maybe you could point out to me where at Richard's blog he's trying to make out that Israelis and Jews were the main targets of the attacks? He doesn't do that, and now that I've explained to you more than once that's what my issue is with yr posts, I'm finding yr insistence that I have some other issue rather disingeous....

[oberliner]

111. I have made no such comments

Your opening paragraph is ridiculous. The accusation that my statement would have been "tweaked" is completely unfounded. It is obvious that the people in the actual country where the terror attack took place would be the vast majority of the victims of the attack. To say that if 40 people from New Zealand were killed as well, I would have done what you claim is nonsensical.

This attack took place in India. The majority of those killed were Indian. Several of the major targets chosen were selected in order to kill non-Indians, such as hotels. One of those selected targets was the Chabad House. This seems noteworthy. It was noteworthy enough for Richard Silverstein to devote the majority of his Tikun Olam posts about the Mumbai attack to what took place at the Chabad House.

The lone attacker who remains alive was reported in an Indian newspaper to have said that Israelis were targeted deliberately. Israelis and Jews were obviously not the only target, but they were a specific target. The Chabad House was not chosen as a target by "pot luck". I'm not sure why you don't think that choice casts any light on the motivation for the attack.

[Violet_Crumble]

117. I quoted yr exact words, Oberliner...

I'm aware that you think all the deaths were tragic and am sure yr not of the mindset that's been expressed by one other poster in this and the other related thread that the killing of non-Jews was a kind of collateral damage thing. But I think the way you worded yr comments that I quoted happened because you wanted to try to connect the numbers of casualties of a particular nationality with the motivation for the attacks. And that's what Richard doesn't do on his blog. His posts were touching and I agreed with what he said when I read them....

I didn't say the Chabad House was chosen as a target by pot luck. I thought I'd been very clear when I said that what was pot-luck was the numbers of foreigners killed by nationality. If there'd been twenty Israelis having dinner in one of the hotels there'd be a much higher casualty rate amongst Israelis for example....

[oberliner]

91. Have you visited the Tikun Olam website recently?

It is the blog run by Richard Silverstein.

His first post regarding the attack was entitled:

Mumbai Terror Attack Targets Foreigners and Israelis

The second post was:

Indian Militants Kill Chabad Rabbi and Wife

This was followed by: Pakistan, Failed State, and Its Role in Mumbai Terror

and: Chabad House Mumbai Death Toll Rises to 9

The most recent post is: Moshe Holtzberg Rescued

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/

Do you find his focus on the Israelis killed in the attack to be offensive?

[LeftishBrit]

113. Thank you for the link

A most interesting blog, and I found his comments very moving.

Devastating about the little boy; he has survived but will be horribly traumatized. As Richard writes, "How can anyone subject a child to such a world of pain? May the memories of these terrorists be blotted out."

[cali]

116. straw man alert.

no one here has done that. not even close. just like no one has said only Israeli and/or Jewish deaths are more important than any other of the deaths in this ugly attack.

Different groups will certainly focus on the members of their identity group killed. In Australia, a more attention will be paid to Australian victims, etc. That in no way precludes the recognition that the Indian victims of this attack have any less intrinsic value than anyone else.

[Violet_Crumble]

118. That post title sure summed up the contents of the post...

No-one here has done that? I suggest you go back and read this thread and the other related thread and you'll see that one person (not Oberliner, btw) has done exactly what you insist hasn't been done...

I agree with yr second paragraph, but that wasn't what I was talking about in my post...

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Damn these hiccups! n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

32. hiccup...n/t

[cali]

57. interesting comment

and rather revealing.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. I made it clear what I meant...

Not too sure what you think is so revealing about it...

[azurnoir]

34. 9 out of 195+ killed

that is about what 2% of the victims? Do the other victims especially the Indian victims not matter or just not matter as much?

[oberliner]

35. So far 18 non-Indians have been indentified as being killed in this attack

The vast majority of the 195 victims were Indian.

Most of those Indian victims appear to be hotel workers, police officers, and guests of the hotel.

Some high-profile Indian casualties are identified in this CNN piece as well as the names of the Indian police officers killed:

Indian victims include financier, journalist, actor's sister, police

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/29/india.victims/

Of the 18 non-Indians identified thus far, 9 of them are Israeli and/or Jewish.

[Phx_Dem]

72. according to this piece the terrorists were targeting people

based on religion.

snip

The Muezzinoglus, however, found themselves in a hostage situation, along with a group of foreigners. That night, they shared a room with three foreigners - all women. Two machine-gun-wielding terrorists stood guard over them the whole night.

All the hostages were asked to reveal their religion. When the Muezzinoglus said they were Muslims, their captors told them that they would not be harmed. The other three Caucasian women were removed from the room next day, and the terrorists informed the Muezzinoglus that they had been shot.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3766609.cms

[Mike 03]

120. Thank you for the interesting posts and discussion. I was sincerely

very interested in this issue, but I don't have much knowledge to really debate it or anything.

Also, I do regret not posting this in GD. For some reason, I had the poor judgment to post it here

Even though I don't remember Munich, seeing Spielberg's film honestly was really an intense, terrifying experience. He really conveyed the horror of that event.

Thanks for the posts.

[bemildred]

122. Delete.

[Mike 03]

123. I had no idea until I checked this thread tonight that it had caused any offense

or was controversial in any way or anything like that.

My deepest apologies, and I'm very sorry. I thought I was just asking a fairly good (maybe even obvious, in a way) question and wanted to get the opinions of others who at least knew about Munich, since most people I know of my age don't know about it. I figured this forum would have people who did know about what happened there, and maybe even could inform me, since I was around eight years old at the time.

If I could do it over again I would not have said anything or would have posted this in GD.

My sincerest apologies.

[bemildred]

124. Welcome to the I.P Forum. nt

[Mike 03]

125. Thanks Bemildred

I bet you don't remember this, but you really inspired me way, way back here on DU in the science forum, when I was trying to learn Superstrings math. When others were making fun of me, you encouraged me.

I never did master advanced calculus, but I did at least absorb the concepts.

Thanks for your early encouragement.

[bemildred]

126. I remember that.

I'm too lazy to do that stuff now, but it's still fun to think about. The world is an infinite fountain of interesting things to think about, sometimes to do, if you aren't too lazy.
:)

[Lithos]

127. Your question was a good one

People often stop and ask some highly introspective questions when bad things happen. There were many horrific stories to come out of Mumbai and I think it is not only appropriate but also healthy to try and talk about why they happened. While I think Munich is not a good analogy at many levels, it still is such a singular event that it is hard not to think in terms of it.

Personally, as the news comes out, it will show the weight of the effort was primarily an attempt to destabilize both Pakistan and India by not only attacking their security and economic infrastructure, but also driving a wedge between the two countries with the probable intention of increasing tensions and causing a war. The choice of the hotels was not only aimed with causing maximum publicity, but also personally directed at specific Indian economic interests including Tata Industries. I also think the attack on Nariman House will be shown as a deliberate move on the part of the terrorists where they play the Israeli card in an attempt to garner some measure of popular support in the Middle East among other radicals. The savage torture unique to the Israeli victims strongly suggests this was a hate crime born of virulent anti-Semitism and not just a cynical attempt at linking themselves to the I/P conflict. This latter touch I think also represents an ideological import into Pakistan from either Iranian or al Qaeda linked groups with my guess being the latter.

The chess match is currently in Pakistan and how it responds to the terrorist situation in its midst. I think this will represent Obama's and Clinton's first international focus and test. Even though militarily it was a disaster for the terrorists, they still won political points which given today's train bombing will be repeated again soon. I also think that they will continue to target Israelis and/or Jews wherever possible. What I hope doesn't happen is the destabilization of Pakistan to the point that they obtain NBC weaponry.

As for I/P itself, while the outcome of the attack is that it will further polarize the situation I think it will lend a greater sense of urgency to brokering a peace between Israel and Palestine in order to help diffuse this as a political wedge issue. I also think that it will lead to a greater tie between the US and India, but also Israel and India albeit for different reasons. Failure to resolve I/P will preserve a rather nasty set of dynamics in Pakistan and the Middle East.

One small irony of note is that they made no distinction between Israel and Judaism as the Rabbi and his wife belonged to an anti-Zionist Satmar sect opposed to the State of Israel and at least somewhat close in nature to those Jews who recently traveled to Iran. I am at least grateful that the toddler was rescued by the cook.

As for posting this in GD it would have ended up here as it had some fairly significant relationship to Israel and Middle Eastern politics. People forget that this is not about just events specific to the immediate Israel and Palestine conflict, but events which directly affect Israel OR Palestine. Given the nature of the attack, this was the forum such a question should have been raised.

And welcome to the I/P forum.