PA officials: Israel offered new West Bank withdrawal map

[oberliner]

Palestinian officials close to peace talks said Sunday that Israel has offered a West Bank withdrawal map that leaves about 8.5 percent of the territory in Israeli hands, less than a previous plan but still more than the Palestinians are ready to accept.

Also Sunday, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was quoted as telling backers that the negotiations have achieved no progress since they were restarted last November with a pledge to US President George W. Bush to try for a full peace treaty by the end of the year.


The Palestinian officials said Israel presented its new map three days ago in a negotiating session. The last map Israel offered had 12 percent of the West Bank remaining in Israel. Israel wants to keep West Bank land with its main settlement blocs, offering land inside Israel in exchange. The land would be between Hebron in the southern West Bank and Gaza - at least part of a route through Israel to link the two territories.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3547725,00.html

[aranthus]

1. Have the Palestinians ever offered their own compromise map?

If they do this time, it will be a big step forward.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. Yes, that map entails Haifa, Acco, Isdud and the Negev. nt

[oberliner]

3. Which peace proposal are you referencing?

Can you be more specific?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. My point is that the Palestinians have already compromised, to the tune of 75+% of their homeland.

[sabbat hunter]

5. so it is either

All of the west bank and jerusalem (plus gaza) in order for a peace with the Palestinians or nothing?


I think that most of the west bank should be given back (with adjustments along the green line to keep the old city of jerusalem inside israel and other adjustments for Israel's safe and defensible borders)

And if you are talking about 75% of the historical homeland of the Palestinians, maybe they should be negotiating with Jordan as well then, since that country is a good chunk of that as well?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Pretty much.

[sabbat hunter]

10. what parts of jerusalem

should go to Palestine?

and since a good chunk of "historical Palestine" is Jordan. Why don't the Palestinian people go after Jordan?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. Those settlement rings certainly have achieved the ojbective, huh?

[sabbat hunter]

16. please answer the question

What parts of jerusalem ideally in your opinion would go to Palestine?
Would it include the old city of jerusalem?


And why don't the Palestinians go after Jordan since that is historically Palestine as you pointed out?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. I can't answer that question. Perhaps settlements such Maale Adumin , built to ensure that

Jerusalem would never be shared, would need to be handed over.

Bottom line: it will have to be negotiated.

[sabbat hunter]

22. how about my questions on

the old city and Jordan?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. I think Jerusalem should be internationalized.

As for Jordan? Sorry, I won't dignify that.

[sabbat hunter]

40. you were the one that brought up

Jordan by saying that 2/3rds of historical Palestine was taken away, so there should be no more compromise on their part.

My point is that since jordan was taken from Palestine, shouldn't they be giving up territory too for a future palestinian state to be fair?

[Vegasaurus]

41. Apparently not

Although Egypt refused to take Gaza and Jordan certainly isn't taking the WB (or giving back territory), and since the Arab nations have mostly refused citizenship to the Palestinans, and since those same countries refuse to give food or aid, all of the Palestinians' problems must be

ISRAEL'S!

[i.beletesri]

21. Good question

The Palestinians Did in fact already "Go after Jordan".

It was called by the infamous name (tho few know it's origin) 'Black September' (1970) when King Hussein defeated Arafat/The PLO who were trying to make Jordan THEE Palestinian state it already was.
Hussein Killed thousands and expelled them To Lebanon.
That Probably being a Catalyst for the Lebanese Civil War breaking out just a few Years later.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Actually, you were the one who pointed out the 'historic Palestine' thing...

The British Mandate of Palestine which only came into being at the San Remo Conference of 1920 is 'historic Palestine'? Even though during the Ottoman Empire what became Jordan was a separate administrative entity than Palestine (both were divided up into a series of things called vilayets and much of Jordan was part of the vilayet of Syria). So how does the creation of the British Mandate in the early 20th century become 'historic Palestine' when Jordan was a separate administrative entity up till then?

I've got a question of my own for you. When you talk about Jerusalem are you talking about Jerusalem's municipal boundaries from 1967 or the enlarged municipal boundaries that currently exist?

[sabbat hunter]

26. I think that

Israel should keep 1967 Jerusalem limits (the ones set under Jordanian Rule), which would include the old city.

The rest should revert to a Palestine.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. That sounds very unfair...

So Palestine would get what was originally not part of Jerusalem and was always part of the West Bank? And Israel gets all of Jerusalem? Jerusalem should be a shared capital city of both countries and if they can't agree on that, then it should be run as an international city and both Israel and Palestine made to have their capital cities elsewhere...

[sabbat hunter]

38. Jerusalem wasnt supposed to be

Part of Palestine. It was supposed to be an international city, but the UN long ago abrogated that duty when Jews were forbidden from entering 1948-1967.

It was never a capital historically of a Palestine territory. There is no historical significance of the city to them. There is a religious one in the old city, but that should remain status quo, Israel ruled, but the holy sites controlled by the various religions.


So yes Palestine would get parts that are the "Expanded" city borders.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. Which color line are you specifically referring to? the Green Line?

[sabbat hunter]

39. I am referring to

the red line. Part east/north and south of that would go to Palestine. The old city would remain status quo.

[pegleg]

6. The Ottoman empire died a long time ago, and Israel isn't going away.

But the Palestinians deserve a true homeland and I believe that will happen, but not as long as they are being represented by Hamas. The policy of waqf over Israel is no longer a reality.

[Vegasaurus]

9. And as long as the Palestinians

think that they can make such demands, they are never going to have a separate state.

Which in fact, exactly the point.

The Palestinians do not now, and have never wanted a separate state.

That is why all of their actions to date are about ALL of Israel, not just any occupied territories (which were not occupied for the first 20 years anyway).

The misery that the Palestinians endure is in great part due to their own intractability.

They want Israel gone. They want to take back ALL of Israel, but Israel isn't leaving.

So they can continue their violent "struggle" from now until whenever, and it isn't going to get them a state any quicker.

[pegleg]

17. I agree with you completely - but the sad fact is that so many innocent

Palestinians are being controlled by Hamas. Hamas is the problem, and as long as they control the minds of the people, the people will continue to live as they do now.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. "The Palestinians do not now, and have never wanted a separate state."

Is that so?

Is that like saying "The Jews" never wanted them to have one?

[sabbat hunter]

27. I believe that he means

that many Palestinians do not want an Israel and Palestine side by side, but a Palestine on all of Israel plus the west bank and Gaza. (just as there are some that want to see only an Israel on the same land)

[Violet_Crumble]

30. I believe that they're wrong if that's what they're saying...

The majority of both Israelis and Palestinians do support a two-state solution with Israel and Palestine living side-by-side...

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Haven't you got the memo? Palestinians are always bad and Israelis are always good!

I find it entertaining that anonymous people on the internet, mainly Americans, like to try to make other people think they've got a conduit into the thinking of the Palestinian and Israeli populations, and that conduit always leads to the conclusion that one population is bad and the other is pure and innocent ;)

[Vegasaurus]

31. Untrue

The majority of both populations may be fine, but the leadership in Gaza, at least, has made it clear that there will be no peace with Israel, no living side by side with Israel, and in fact, they plan too annihilate Israel.

That is the leadership talking, both political and religious.

So, the goals of Hamas and the militants are clear.

The sad part is that they have wide support among the civilian population, who agree with this platform.

And at that rate, the Palestinians are never going to have a separate state, which , as I said, isn't their goal anyway.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. What you said? Yes, it is untrue....

The sad part is that they have wide support among the civilian population, who agree with this platform.

Do you always contradict what yr saying in the space of one post? In one breath yr claiming you do think the majority of both populations support a two-state solution, and then you contradict it with nonsensical bullshit about the Palestinian population...

How about you admit that you don't know the first thing about what the Palestinian population wants and actually try to learn about them and stop acting as though they're some one-dimensional cartoon character thing?

[Vegasaurus]

36. I don't know about you, but I do my reading

the Palestinian leadership, and their civilian population, make their goals well known.

Every day in the news, whenever they are quoted or seen.

They dance in the street and pass out candies when Israelis are murdered.

They support ongoing violence against Israelis (perhaps not every Palestinian, but over 50%, according to polls).

Their leadership, both religious and political, chooses to oppress the civilians, by terrorizing the very crossings or people that supply their aid.

And then, if the aid actually gets in, they don't get it to the people.

If the Palestinians actually DO want a state, it is time for the moderates to speak up, to renounce the violence, to curb the violence, and to start acting like people who want to live at peace, not at war.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. The tenor of your post absolutely speaks to your "support" for a Palestinian state.

If you don't regard the 1967 as a compromise, that's your prerogative.

I'm not interested in word games.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. No surprise that the maps are posted from Masada2000 n/t

[i.beletesri]

18. Incorrect

Just the top map- which is Generic ('THE Mandate') anyway- is from Masada2000.
(first one I came across on image search but could have used many/any others)

Surely you know what you say is a Lie and is easily checkable, if not obvious by Format of the second map vs the first.

Which I guess is your attempt at 'rebuttal-thru-bogus-discreditization' vs Using fact.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. You did post a map from a hate site....

I don't know about you, but I refuse to post images or maps from hate sites that are not allowed to be used at DU. It's not 'bogus discreditisation', it's pointing out something obvious, which is that someone who uses images from hate sites be it Masada2000 or Stormfront damages the credibility of anything that's posted with those images. Even though I did an image search and Masada2000's map didn't appear, I find it a bit disturbing that you had a choice of other sites to use, but still chose to use that one...

Oh, and I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to be rebutting...

[i.beletesri]

35. I wouldn't say it's a 'Hate Site'

in the Classic Sense of Stormfront, RadioIslam, or Jewwatch etc.
It does contain some highly Irreverent content.
Looks oft like the work of a passionate teen.
Then again many Palestinian sites posted here are highly biased such as Oxymoron 'palestineremembered' or 'passia' etc.

And of course, you weren't able so say anything about my content except Lie/be mistaken about the second map's Origin.

BTW, how does the board feel about your sig containing classic Obscenity?

[Vegasaurus]

37. I find that signature line disgusting, but it seems to be allowed. nt

[i.beletesri]

19. Baffling Reply

after posting some history I said:

"""Am I 'for' a Palestinian State (with a few Percent buffer for Israel along parts of the WB).. Yes, of course.""

That few percent being obviously from the 1967 Line (as foreseen by Res 242)

Which is pretty much in keeping with the majority of opinion I read previous in this string.
So what exactly your problem is .. is baffling.

[azurnoir]

14. Something that makes no sense

Israel and its supporters constantly offer up "security" as the reason for maintaining control of the West Bank. Israel has even built a wall between the two territories, yet despite these "security" concerns Israelis continue to live beyond the "security" wall.
To take it a step further now Israel wants to create islands o Palestinians inside of Israel?

The last map Israel offered had 12 percent of the West Bank remaining in Israel. Israel wants to keep West Bank land with its main settlement blocs, offering land inside Israel in exchange.

Now just how would Israel be able to keep its citizens in surrounding towns secure?

[azurnoir]

15. delete n/t