Peres: I didn't imagine Qassams would be fired after Gaza disengagement

[bemildred]

On the eve of Israel's 60th Independence Day, President Shimon Peres cites the country's achievements but he is also aware of the public's sense of cautious joy, and how that feeling exists despite the government, not because of it.

"So what?" he says in an interview this week at the President's Residence. "It's not terrible that there is no rejoicing at the government. Governments all over the world are losing their strength. Besides, the Jews gave the world dissatisfaction. Celebration is not a Jewish thing. Still, I'm optimistic, though I'm not satisfied."

Such an expression uses the plays on words Peres enjoys so much, but it does not mask the deep change in his rhetoric and of his world view. The past decade has handed him some disappointments. "Although in '98 everything seemed dark because of Rabin's murder, I believed we could still move the peace process ahead more quickly. I did not think we'd have so many problems. I believed the separation between the West Bank and Gaza would make things easier, not harder. I did not imagine that we would leave Gaza and they would fire Qassams from there; I did not imagine that Hamas would show so strongly in the elections.

This admission of disappointment, though not of despair, is not the only change in the man. He never used words like "revenge" or "destruction" before in a national sense. But he did use them in his speeches in Poland marking 65 years since the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. He described Israel's success after the Holocaust as "revenge," and the two intifadas as attempts to destroy Israel. It might be assumed that the rhetoric stemmed from the fact that this was Peres' first visit to Poland as president. However, Peres said, "It's not because I am president, it's because of Ahmadinejad," the president told Haaretz. "I identify a phenomenon similar to Hitler, and the world is once again indifferent. I can't say for sure he would behave like Hitler, but the world is taking him lightly. Not only we are isolated. The world has changed. We have become both more global and more individualistic."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/981392.html

More Peres plus some Ashkenazi here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/981338.html

[The Magistrate]

1. It Is A Shame, My Friend, The Event Proved His Expectation Wrong

All concerned would be much better off had the rocket fire not been pressed after the withdrawl.

[TheMadMonk]

2. Occupation to seige is not much if any improvement.

The war on Palestine continued. Is it any wonder that Palestine continued (and continues) to fight back?

[The Magistrate]

4. If You Say So, Sir....

[bemildred]

3. Wishful thinking doesn't get you far.

I expected more rockets, or at least continued rockets, but we seem to have more now. I remember having big arguments with Pelsar (I think, and some others) about that, back then.

I was taken by his use of Nazi and Hitler analogies too. I am not fan of Ahm-an-idjit, as you know, but he is not Hitler, and Iran is not Nazi Germany, and we would all be better served if the rhetoric were toned down about Iran.

[The Magistrate]

5. Well, My Friend

One man's wishful thinking is another man's giving someone the chance to step up and do the right thing....

Toning down rhetoric, all around, is, as you know, high on my list of good things.

[bemildred]

9. It was quite contentious at the time, Sir, as I suppose your remember.

Looking back on it, I do still wonder what Sharon thought he was doing and why, but I don't expect to find out soon. Although I must admit that I thought it was the right thing to do, and I still do think that. But it could have been done better. For example, had it not been done so emphatically "unilaterally" it would have been easier for Fatah to take credit for it and that might have avoided the Hamas takeover of Gaza, and perhaps weakened support for the "hard men" you like to talk of.

You know I am always glad to see someone do the right thing, but it's not what I expect.

[The Magistrate]

10. We Are Pretty Busy Tonight, Sir: I Will Try And Reply Substantively Tomorrow

Democracy is such fun....

[bemildred]

11. I don't go near there, Sir.

It's mean enough here at times. No reply is necessary. This is all idle talk anyhow.

[notfullofit]

6. He is not

Hitler but it is said his goals are the same, to rid the world of the Jews.

I agree we need to tone down the rhetoric re Iran (it's getting scary) but he does not help.

[bemildred]

7. He's a weasel politician, a dishonest rabble rouser.

He is nowhere near as nuts as Hitler and some of his cronies, probably a good deal sharper, but he lacks the charisma, and he isn't looking for conquests, he wants power and influence. If he pulls off a coup and takes control of the Iranian state, I'll start to take notice.

[shaayecanaan]

8. If his intention is to rid the world of Jews...

Why hasnt he tried to get rid of the 25,000 Jews that live in Iran? Surely that much would be within his logistical abilities.

For that matter, why do Jews still reside in Iran, given that they fled Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and so many other "moderate" Arab states so long ago? Could it be that the life of a Jew in Iran is vastly preferable to the life of a Jew in Saudi Arabia?

Much is made of the fact that Ahmadinejad has stated that Israel "should be wiped off the map". Similarly, much is made of Hamas' charter that calls for the destruction of Israel.

Likud's charter calls for the complete annexation of the West Bank and Gaza - in effect, the destruction of Palestine. Why is nothing made of this?

Moreover, exactly why is Iran the only country threatened with war in response to two sentences issued by its president?

For example,
Shimon Peres said that "Israel is not the only country that can be wiped off the map".
Nikita Khruschev said "we will bury you".
General MacArthur said "give me 50 B-52s and 50 atomic bombs and I will take care of China."
George Bush said "all options are on the table"

Why is so much made of the fact that Israel supplies the Gaza Strip with power. The West Bank supplies Israel with water. If Israel has no obligation to supply Gaza with power, why does Israel have a moral right to take water from the West Bank aquifer?

Israel has said that its nuclear policy is that it will "not introduce nuclear weapons to the middle East", in the words of Shimon Peres.

But nobody in the middle East besides Israel has nuclear weapons. So if Israel would not introduce them, who would?

Why is Israel able to criticise Iranian compliance with the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty, when it is one of four countries that have not signed it?

Most countries accept that, if they develop nuclear weapons, their enemies will want to do the same. The US conceded that Russia and China would want to develop weapons, once the US had them. India accepted the same in the case of Pakistan. No country will endure having a sword of Damocles hanging above their head, unless they have a sword of their own to keep the other country honest.

Why are there so many double standards?

[Vegasaurus]

14. The Jews of Iran

Hope this answers your questions.

The Jews of Iran
1948 Jewish population: 100,000
2004: ~25,000



Throughout the 19th century, Jews were persecuted and discriminated against. Sometimes whole communities were forced to convert. During the 19th century, there was considerable emigration to the Land of Israel, and the Zionist movement spread throughout the community.

Under the Phalevi Dynasty, established in 1925, the country was secularized and oriented toward the West. This greatly benefited the Jews, who were emancipated and played an important role in the economy and in cultural life. On the eve of the Islamic Revolution in 1979, 80,000 Jews lived in Iran. In the wake of the upheaval, tens of thousands of Jews, especially the wealthy, left the country, leaving behind vast amounts of property.

The Council of the Jewish Community, which was established after World War II, is the representative body of the community. The Jews also have a representative in parliament who is obligated by law to support Iranian foreign policy and its Anti-Zionist position.

Despite the official distinction between "Jews," "Zionists," and "Israel," the most common accusation the Jews encounter is that of maintaining contacts with Zionists. The Jewish community does enjoy a measure of religious freedom but is faced with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist state and with "imperialistic America" — both such activities are punishable by death. Jews who apply for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi, with the restrictions im posed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community.

Iran's official government-controlled media often issues anti-Semitic propaganda. A prime example is the government's publishing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious Czarist forgery, in 1994 and 1999.2 Jews also suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and public accommodations.3

The Islamization of the country has brought about strict control over Jewish educational institutions. Before the revolution, there were some 20 Jewish schools functioning throughout the country. In recent years, most of these have been closed down. In the remaining schools, Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslims. In Teheran there are still three schools in which Jewish pupils constitute a majority. The curriculum is Islamic, and Persian is forbidden as the language of instruction for Jewish studies. Special Hebrew lessons are conducted on Fridays by the Orthodox Otzar ha-Torah organization, which is responsible for Jewish religious education. Saturday is no longer officially recognized as the Jewish sabbath, and Jewish pupils are compelled to attend school on that day. There are three synagogues in Teheran, but since 1994, there has been no rabbi in Iran, and the bet din does not function. 4

Following the overthrow of the shah and the declaration of an Islamic state in 1979, Iran severed relations with Israel. The country has subsequently supported many of the Islamic terrorist organizations that target Jews and Israelis, particularly the Lebanon-based, Hezbollah. Nevertheless, Iran's Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel.

On the eve of Passover in 1999, 13 Jews from Shiraz and Isfahan in southern Iran were arrested and accused of spying for Israel and the United States. Those arrested include a rabbi, a ritual slaughterer and teachers. In September 2000, an Iranian appeals court upheld a decision to imprison ten of the thirteen Jews accused of spying for Israel. In the appeals court, ten of the accused were found guilty of cooperating with Israel and were given prison terms ranging from two to nine years. Three of the accused were found innocent in the first trial.5 In March 2001, one of the imprisoned Jews was released, a second was freed in January 2002, the remaining eight were set free in late October 2002. The last five apparently were released on furlough for an indefinite period, leaving them vulnerable to future arrest. Three others were reportedly pardoned by Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.6

At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel. For example, in May 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was hanged in prison without a public charge or legal proceeding, apparently for assisting Jews to emigrate.7

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second largest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as to the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community’s isolation from world Jewry.

edit: itallics and link


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

[azurnoir]

20. You did not answer the question

Why has Iran not expelled the remaining Jews, despite the efforts of several non-Muslim groups outside of Iran to persuade the Iranian Jews to leave? If it is so "isolated" have is these groups have been in contact with them?

[oberliner]

25. One could argue

that Iran's protection of the tiny Jewish population there serves the purpose of making the exact argument that you are making. They can claim that they couldn't possibly have any ill intentions regarding Jews since they have this Jewish population living there.

[azurnoir]

26. Yes that could be a possibility

I have also seen it floated that they stay at "gun point" so to speak, but there is also the possibility that they stay because they are Iranians.

[shaayecanaan]

33. Really?

Iran is preserving its Jewish minority just so shit-stirrers like me can make arguments on message boards?...I just knew I was special. Im going to go back to that psychiatrist and tell him to stick his delusions of grandeur right up his arse.

</sarcasm>

To recap:-

Its worth stressing Ahmadinejad is being compared to Hitler. Now, he's up for re-election in 2009, and given that his approval ratings are around 20%, he'll probably get turfed out on his arse. If it is his intention to rid the world of Jews, then he's fast running out of time to do it, and as I said before, he hasnt even made an effort to kill any Jews that live within Iran.

You can dream up all the ratiocinated conspiracy theories you like, but ultimately, I think the simplest way of explaining things is:-

1. He is not Hitler.
2. He does not have the aim of exterminating Jews.

[oberliner]

34. No ratiocinated conspiracy theories here

I do appreciate learning the new vocabulary word! (ratiocinated)

In response to your comments, I do not believe that Iran is preserving its Jewish minority so that people like you can make arguments on message boards.

I do think it is possible that Iran preserves its Jewish community in part because of the PR factor, similar to when they invite representatives from Neturei Karta to their Holocaust denial conference, arguing that if Jews are willing to attend, how can it possibly be anti-semitic?

The vast majority of Iran's Jewish population left in 1979, Many Iranian/Persian Jews living in the US will speak of the difficulties faced by what remains of the Jewish community in Iran. The execution of Habib Elghanian, the confiscation of property after the Islamic Revolution, and the more recent accusations of spying continue to create a sense of unease.

Peres does not say that Ahmadinejad is Hitler. He says that he "identifies a phenomenon similar to Hitler."

Ahmadinejad making comments such as when he recently suggested that Israel be re-located to somewhere in Europe, or claiming that the Holocaust may have been fabricated or exaggerated certainly would give many Jewish people pause.

You can claim to know this man's intentions all you like, but ultimately, I think the simplest was of explaining things is:

1. He is a world leader seeking nuclear technology who has made anti-semitic (and homophobic) statements
2. He does not believe Israel has a right to exist

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. "separation between the West Bank and Gaza would make things easier, not harder..."

Easier for what? easier for whom?

Easier for Israel to manage the unruly Arabs?

[bemildred]

13. This piece is full of little nuggets like that.

Things said that say more than was perhaps intended. That's why I posted it. It seems less guarded than usual.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. I question his intelligence if he was truly "surprised." nt

[bemildred]

17. I'd question his assumptions.

I didn't think some of his comments reflected well on him, but he's a politician, so he is supposed to spout whatever the current government "view" is, drivel or not; so I'm not willing to pursue his intelligence personally on the basis that it's really what he thought.

Nevertheless, as with the Bushites, it's clear something is wrong: when the results are wildly different from what you claim to have expected, one has to question the competence, intentions, and candor of the "deciders" who brought the situation about.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Let's leave the zebra for a moment and examine the horse.

If the purpose of "disengagement" was to further sow discord and chaos, and in fact physically and politically separate the WB and Gaza, then the plan was quite successful.

[bemildred]

19. That doesn't amount to much.

You get out what you put in. It amounts to stating that if what happened was what was desired, then they got what they wanted. There are other plausible explanations, and it doesn't seem to me that the development of the I/P situation since the end of Oslo has really been a good thing from an Israeli point of view, and certainly the situation in Gaza is not. That doesn't mean that it cannot be or is not used for propaganda or various other political purposes, or that some Israeli "planners" did not have such thoughts, or that it does not suck for the people living in Gaza, but it's not good for Israel or Israelis either. You can wave your hands all you want, but when you look at things now as opposed to say ten years ago, they are not going in the direction you would want them to go, from an Israeli point of view.

I think they withdrew from Gaza for much the same reasons that they withdrew from S. Lebanon, it was a losing proposition and resources were needed elsewhere. A strategic retreat if you like. While I think that Israel has used "divide and rule" tactics against the Palestinians a good deal, that doesn't mean it's worked out well, in the manner they wanted it to, and I doubt that that's the case.

So, I don't have a problem with people who criticize Israeli treatment of the Arabs, but I do think it's wrong to imply that the current situation is what "they" wanted.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. I have come to believe that the government prefers the status quo.

Disengaging Gaza enabled them to get soldiers out of harm's way, and completely cripple the Palestinian leadership, all but rendering them meaningless.

Clearly the rockets are a price the current gov't is willing to pay.

I didn't always believe the gov't of Israel work against the interest of peace, but the longer I observe, the more I think that's the case. There is too much evidence of purposeful activity that will have no consequence EXCEPT to hinder peace. The disengagement is but one example.

[bemildred]

24. You can believe what you like, I just offered my views.

I'm not here to defend the integrity of any politicians. Well, I may pump Jimmy C. up a little. But I think it's worth remembering that all of this is changing all the time, and politicians are just people the same as you and me. It's an error to think they are omniscient or omnipotent. "Never assume malice where incompetence will do the job." -- a quote attributed to Napoleon. If in fact this is what they were aiming for, they are bigger fools than I think.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

27. Nah I don't mean to imply that.

I'm really sort of shocked by how much my own views have changed over the past 10 years.

Mostly the I think the "occupation" is a force with a life of its own that runs sort of "next to" the gov't of Israel.

[bemildred]

29. I do get the feeling that nobody is in charge.

Or rather that sometimes the government is obeyed and sometimes it is ignored. And I do get that feeling more as time goes on. Things fall apart. Sharon is still lying there somewhere. Arafat us dead. The replacements don't measure up. The US is in a most awkward position now in the Middle East, and I am hopeful that that will lead to a change of attitude about the settlements, that it will become an ISSUE, there is pressure being applied now, but it's hard to tell how serious they are about it as yet. If Olmert is removed or removes himself, that is going to be going even deeper into the chaos.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. And meanwhile the occupation/settlement machine chugs on.

Honestly it reminds of season 3 of The Wire... "The War on Drugs" just took on a life of its own, with its own pot of money, and its own beneficiaries. Whether it made sense or not no longer mattered...

Still though, the gov't has to be held responsible for it.

[The Magistrate]

31. An Excellent Analysis Over-All, My Friend

Unfortunately, the settlements will not become the pre-dominant issue so long as the violence of the 'struggle' so prized by Arab Palestinian militant bodies continues. Explosions and the occasional corpse make much better and more riveting head-lines, and most of the critical audience does not see construction of houses as anything nearly so bad as killing, and will pay no attention to it so long as there is killing to focus on.

"Do they understand that ninety percent of what happens is just people being drunk and stupid and looking for some other reason why their lives are fucked up?"

[bemildred]

32. It seems to me Sir, that it would be a mistake to rely on the US government's

abhorrence of violence as a guide to it's future actions.

That's a nice quote, after my own heart.

[The Magistrate]

35. Not The Government Being Referenced, Sir, But The News Consuming Populace

The line is from Mr. Swearingen in 'Deadwood', which I highly recommend....

[oberliner]

16. Make it easier to move the peace process forward

Please note the context:

"I believed we could still move the peace process ahead more quickly. I did not think we'd have so many problems. I believed the separation between the West Bank and Gaza would make things easier, not harder."

Peres says nothing similar to what you are suggesting.

[azurnoir]

22. PM did not quote Peres as saying

anything more than what he said, it is the intention of that remark that was called into question, perhaps seeing as how you seem to know Mr. Peres mind you could explain just how the separation would make things easier for the Palestinians to negotiate a peace.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. Perhaps when Abbas begged them not to move unitlaterally, he could have

taken that as a sign??

[azurnoir]

21. Yep that about sums it up n/t