New UN report highlights Israel's brutality

[CitizenDick]

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=93296

Israel killed more than 2,500 Palestinians in two years, confiscated vast areas of land, destroyed Arab houses and pushed ahead with expansion of Jewish colonies in the Occupied Territories to force Palestinians to leave, according to a UN report.

Its incessant measures of siege and confiscation of material, barring entry of products, seizure of Palestinian government revenue and persistent military attacks have also devastated the economy in the West Bank and Gaza Strip more than ten years after Arabs and Israel sat together at a peace conference in Madrid.

The report by the UN's Economic and Social Commission for West Asia (ESCWA) concluded Israel's measures against the Palestinians are too cruel as they have made their life intolerable and sharply widened poverty and unemployment among the Palestinian people who had wished to start picking the fruits of peace.

The report, a copy of which was sent to Gulf News yesterday, quoted the Palestinian Ministry of Health that around 2,520 Palestinians had been killed by Israel between September 29, 2000 and September 24 last year compared with 624 Israeli deaths.

More at the link

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[jos]

4. Well then, let's give the U.S. back to the Native Americans

:P

[wakfs]

6. Okay

[jos]

8. Start packing

then.

[Classical_Liberal]

60. Israel's taking of land is happening now, not 200 yrs ago

beside, I don't expect the settlers to get packing. If they want to live in a Palestinian state on the west bank, it should be their choice, but that is where the Palestinian state will be.

[wakfs]

5. Oh yeah...

How come we never hear the UN reporting on Palestinian terrorism against Israel? OH that's right, blowing up children on buses or in crowded markets is not terrorism it's "freedom-fighting" right?

Where are those reports, I wonder?
And why does the PLO charter call for the destruction of Israel?

When you're surrounded on all sides by enemies who want to kill you, you tend to get mean and defensive. Too bad. The Arabs/Palestinians made this bed, now they have to lay in it.

[Dhalgren]

14. It goes both ways, for both sides.

For every atrosity there is a counter one. The "bottom line" is that the Palestinians have more legal right to share this land than the "Israelis". By simply saying that a people must accept whatever imperialistic edict is handed to them and then that is their "last chance" is absurd. These are real, live human beings, with all the same range of emotions and feelings, hopes and dreams as anyone else. The Palestinians are fighting for their homes and their country - to dismiss them as subhuman and beneath concideration is abhorent.

[Name removed]

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[jos]

19. Nothing to see here. Nothing to see here.

This is a typical line of argument by the "Israel right or wrong" crowd. "Look what's going on over there. Look how bad they are. Ignore what we're doing. Nothing to see here." Similar arguments were made by white South Africans and southern politicians in the days of segregation.

So, you're in good company.

[Gimel]

65. Share with whom?

The "bottom line" is that the Palestinians have more legal right to share this land than the "Israelis".

This assumption is shakey at best. The Israelis are also real human beings. They have no other land. Where else is there a land for Jews but Israel?

[Equinox]

62. The Palestinian Charter has been amended to the satisfaction of the US

and Israel.


Also, you call this bias? I didn't realize Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et al. were Nations as Israel is. Can you point out where they exist on a map? I need to get a new atlas. Apparantly my Rand McNalley is incorrect.

[jos]

7. Definition of Chutzpah

Telling people whose families lived on the land for generations unbroken to leave, so that people whose families came to the land in the last 100 years or so can take their land.

:crazy:

[Name removed]

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[CitizenDick]

10. "These people"?

Who are you referring to exactly?

[Name removed]

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[jos]

13. You're right

The Palestinians should profusely thank the Israelis for occupying and taking their land.:eyes:

[CitizenDick]

15. Have you stopped to think

You're making a generalization about an entire group of people based on their ethnicity?

[tinnypriv]

16. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Run along now.

[wakfs]

17. Never

I'll stay to keep all you Israel-haters in line.

[Name removed]

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[Equinox]

78. Who hates Israel?

Is that an accusation?

[Cassandra]

23. I guess that also applies to most of.....

Europe, Russia, North amd South America, China, Japan, Australia, India and Pakistan, the ancient Romans, the Ottoman Empire, etc, etc,.......
Why the very particular indigestion when you could be feasting everywhere?
Actually, the definition of chutzpah is killing both of your parents and throwing yourself on the mercy of the court on the grounds that you're an orphan.

[CitizenDick]

11. Geez

"Maybe the Jordanian-oops, I mean "Palestinians" should just leave and go back home to Jordan where they came from."

Go back where they came from? How progressive.

[wakfs]

20. Heavy-handed moderators

are a little too quick on the draw to delete posts. Ever hear of "free speech"?

[Forkboy]

22. lots of idiot posters

the mods do a great job down here.

[Lithos]

24. Wakfs

Check your inbox.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[newyorican]

25. The Bulldozer, living up to his name...

"During the period, Israeli forces demolished well over 1,275 Palestinian houses. ESCWA reported between March and November 2002, the army destroyed 304 refugee homes in the West Bank, in addition to the approximately 600 refugee housing units destroyed in their assault on Jenin in April 2002."

In the Gaza Strip, a total of at least 2,424 Palestinian houses were damaged by the end of 2002. The Israeli army has completely destroyed 74 houses, leaving nearly 23,122 people homeless, including a majority of children.

*****

Genocide on the installment plan. Baggage that *all* Americans get to carry around due to our culpability in paying for this garbage. Obviously, we are *not* joined at the heart if this is the barbarism brought to the table.

"Israel’s overall human rights record in the occupied territories remained poor and had worsened in several areas as it continued to commit "numerous, serious human rights abuses". " - U.S. State Dept.

Some valuable ally. :eyes:

[Herschel]

26. Homes to criminals and their accomplices

No loss. Stop terror, stop bulldozers.

[newyorican]

27. Hello? Anyone home?

"No loss."

"Israel’s overall human rights record in the occupied territories remained poor and had worsened in several areas as it continued to commit "numerous, serious human rights abuses". " - U.S. State Dept.

Sounds like a loss to me. Exactly how much is lost is up to those (brave enough to look honestly in the mirror) to figure out.

"Stop terror, stop bulldozers."

Stop, yer killin' me...

[Herschel]

28. The bulldozing of homes

is done in response to terror. No terror, no bulldozers, or stories about human rights abuses. An end to the terror would work wonders for the Palestinians.

[newyorican]

29. You say that as if "terrorism"

is an excuse for anything when, in reality, it is an excuse for nothing.

Nice defense of Sharon though. Well, not really, but I thought that I would point out that your are defending the indefensible.

[Herschel]

30. Explain yourself

"You say that as if "terrorism" is an excuse for anything when, in reality, it is an excuse for nothing." I said no such thing. What do you say, it is an excuse for nothing?

[newyorican]

32. hmm...

"You say that *as if*. As if. I thought it was pretty straight-forward, sorry you didn't understand.

But to the larger point, you (or anyone) can sit back and rationalize the barbaric behavior of the Israelis. Doesn't mean anything of course, because all you have is rationalizations, same as the suicide bombers, rationalizations coming out of every stinking orifice. :puke:

[Herschel]

63. Israelis are not barbaric

And their actions are on a higher moral ground than the suicide bombers. I will leave it at that.

[newyorican]

64. absurdity ad infinitum

:crazy: There *is* no moral high ground. All parties are wearing black hats. I will leave it at that. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Herschel]

66. Another thing for you

You say all wear black hats. A brave IDF soldier hunting a killer wears the same hat as a creature strapped to explosives to blow up a bus or cafe? Oh, my.

[newyorican]

67. Yes.

Oh my.

[Darranar]

31. Terrorism is NOT an excuse for nothing...

Terrorism is a reason to prevent more terrorism.

[newyorican]

33. That's "not an excuse for *anything"

On another point, the article talks about "Palestinian civilians" and you only *see* terrorists?

Terrorism is a reason to prevent more terrorism.

A statement absent of any sense whatsoever, but amusingly Goebbels-like. One can imagine the eyes of the IDF initiate glazing over as this mantra is repeated over and over...then it time to pass out the ammo and discipline the wog, eh?

[Darranar]

34. To clarify...

Terrorism is a crime. According to the laws of justice, a criminal must be punished. Therefore, a person who commits a terrorist act must be punished.

[jos]

35. Collective punishment

Does anyone else see the sad irony in a Jewish state imposing collective punishment?

[Darranar]

55. I don't support collective punishment.

n/t

[Classical_Liberal]

59. If you support bulldozing of Palestinians homes because of

the terrorism of a few, you support collective punishment. If you have a neighbor that kills someone, the law should bulldoze your home, that is what you are advocating, when you defend the bulldozing of homes.

[Darranar]

61. I don't defend the buldozing of homes...

Along with the settlements, it is among the worst things Israel is doing.

[Classical_Liberal]

58. Then we should bulldoze the neighborhoods of all violent criminals

. If your neighbor kills someone your house should be obliterated.

[Classical_Liberal]

57. So all Palestinians are terrorists then

?

[Herschel]

70. I said no such things

The bulldozing is reserved for the homes of criminals and their accomplices.

[wakfs]

36. Just to put things in a little perspective

Let's take a closer look at the ESCWA, the UN group that put out this report.

First, here's the link to the Economic and Social Commission for West Asia home page:
ESCWA Home Page

Now, first notice that the address of this august body is Beirut, Lebanon, hardly a bastion of fair and balanced viewpoints of the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

Next, take a look at the participants (members and staff) of the ESCWA.
Staff and Contact Info

Hmm, there sure are a lot arab names on that list. The ESCWA is headed by an Egyptian woman. Egypt is not what I'd call a fair observer of the situation, having attacked Israel several times in the past. And Egypt itself is not known as a bastion of democratic principles and fair treatment of minorities. I have nothing against any ethnic group or nationality, just pointing out the facts.

Now if you dig a little further, you can get a list of the member nations represented on this Commission (look under Geographic Distribution). Hmm, Israel is not represented here, but nine arab countries are, not counting Afghanistan, as well as some European countries, the US, and a few others.

My point? Before running this "report" up the flagpole, consider the source of the information. It is entirely possible that the report could be skewed by the opinions and prejudices of the participants. And all of the principles of the ESCWA appear to be from arab-speaking countries, none of which are friendly to Israel.

Again, where is the UN report on Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and other known terrorist groups operating out Gaza and the West Bank population centers? How's about a link to THAT report?

Oh, THAT report! Here is the main UN Action Against Terrorism page, in the interest of FAIR PLAY:
UN Action Against Terrorism

Of course, you will have difficulty finding any mention of Hamas or the other terror groups operating inside Israel. You will find lots of mention of Israel though. Seems rather one-sided to me.

Sorry for the long post.

[CitizenDick]

37. "Hmm, there sure are a lot arab names on that list. "

Can you tell us why the ethnicity of those on the list is important?

[wakfs]

38. Because

Officials representing the arab world have been traditionally hostile to Israel.

[drdon326]

39. wakfs

congratulations...youre an "INFIDEL".

[wakfs]

41. Cool!

I should get a t-shirt that says that.

[CitizenDick]

40. And?

'Officials representing the arab world have been traditionally hostile to Israel."

Therefore, what? Having an Arabic name therefore undermines one's credibility?

[wakfs]

42. Meaning...

...that their criticism of Israel has to be taken with a grain of salt. Look, arab countries have been hostile to Israel since day one and that has NOT changed. The leaders of that UN commission are identified as "diplomats" meaning that they are or have been professional representatives of their respective countries' governments. As these governments are hostile to Israel, it is reasonable to assume that these professional diplomats' "findings" will be consistent with their home countries' hostile anti-Israel policies.

Not excusing Israel's heavy hand in dealing with the Palestinians, I believe that this commission's report is simply Arab anti-Israel politics as usual, using the UN as a smokescreen.

I ask again: where is this commission's report on Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, etc.? Where? I can't find it.

[CitizenDick]

43. So then

an Arab criticizng Israel "has to be taken with a grain of salt".

Similarly, would a Jew's opinion on Middle Eastern affairs need to be taken with a grain of salt?

[wakfs]

44. Tsk tsk

I said "Israel" not "Jew."

[CitizenDick]

45. What??

Israel happened to be the topic you said we needed to take Arab opinions 'with a grain of salt' about. There was no confusion about Israeli vs. Jew.

The broader point was it's problematic to take anyone's opinion 'with a grain of salt' based on their ethnicity, be it Jewish, Arab, whatever.

[wakfs]

46. You're right

in most debates, but this is a very thorny emotional issue.

My point is that in raising the issue of the UN report, you fail to note that the report's authors are all from countries that are hostile to Israel, the subject of their report. You also fail to bring up the fact that this commission has no such report about the brutalities of the indigenous terror groups in the region. It's kind of one-sided.

In my mind, this makes the report suspect. I am questioning the motives of the authors of the report.

On edit:

Jew is a religious term, it identifies the religion of a person. I mean Arab as a nationality.

[newyorican]

47. "I mean Arab as a nationality."

Sure you did. :eyes:

Mind telling us just where this nation is?

[wakfs]

48. Sure, go look at a map of the middle east

Every country in the middle east except Israel.

Or, collectively all the Arab-speaking nations in the middle east. Ethnically and culturally, they are all Arabs, so I don't care what the names of the damned places are. They're all Arabs.

And their governments all have policies hostile to Israel (and the US for that matter).

[newyorican]

49. If I am to believe your blather..

you are saying that Iranians are Arabs also?

Talk about a lost soul requiring some intensive history lessons. Iranians are Persians, they always have been, they always will be. You sound very much like those "good ole boys" down in Texas that killed the Indian guy cause he had a turban. Just goes to show that bigots will think of the 'darnedest' things, and lack the common sense to keep it to themselves.
:shrug:

[wakfs]

50. Hardly

I forgot about the Iranians being Persians.

How sad, that as soon as somebody dares disagree with you, you resort to name-calling and innuendo.

You haven't even addressed my original point, which is valid. The people who sit on that West Asian commission continually report all of Israel's abuses (which I am not making excuses for, by the way) but NONE of the terror groups located there. And all the knee-jerks here blithely and happily post them here, making the same one-sided mistake as the UN.

There are TWO sides to every issue, including this one. At least make the attempt at seeing the other side of this issue.

[CitizenDick]

51. Hmmm

"Or, collectively all the Arab-speaking nations in the middle east. Ethnically and culturally, they are all Arabs, so I don't care what the names of the damned places are. They're all Arabs."

When you're in a hole, stop digging.

[newyorican]

52. So now it's "West Asians" as well as Arabs?

Oh my. All of these folks (plus the rest of the world) gather someplace to discuss, human rights within *many* nations, and you see fire-breathing, anti-semites plotting to make Israel look bad again? Are there any other groups you want to throw into this world-wide conspiracy?

Of course your *original* point is nothing but a cheap diversion from the core issue. That being, Israels pathetic human right record. It's growing more pathetic as time goes on as this passage indicates:

"Israel’s overall human rights record in the occupied territories remained poor and had worsened in several areas as it continued to commit "numerous, serious human rights abuses"

That *is* the point, care to address it without silly rationalizations? Or you could spend your time looking under various pieces of furniture for that world-wide conspiracy of fire-breathing, anti-semites. Your choice...

[Lurking Dem]

53. Iranians are Arabic speaking?

I thought they spoke Farsi??

[newyorican]

54. Iranians speak Persian & Turkic (84% of pop)

Ethnic groups:
Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%

Religions:
Shi'a Muslim 89%, Sunni Muslim 10%, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha'i 1%

Languages:
Persian and Persian dialects 58%, Turkic and Turkic dialects 26%, Kurdish 9%, Luri 2%, Balochi 1%, Arabic 1%, Turkish 1%, other 2%


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Nonsense...

And their governments all have policies hostile to Israel (and the US for that matter).

Jordan and Egypt have peace treaties with Israel. Am I going to get a rousing chorus of 'It Ain't Worth The Paper It's Printed On!!!' now? And as for any country that has policies hostile to the US, they deserve a medal as far as I'm concerned. Everyone should be hostile to the US right now, despite what the flag-waving Might Makes Right morons demand we all think. Hey, maybe we here could be considered to have a policy hostile to the US with the way our television and film industry is protected (specifically against US interests)?

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

72. You've read the report?

Got a link to it? I wouldn't mind reading it myself. The article that was posted here didn't say who the reports authors were, though I'm really not into discrediting something solely on the basis that its authors are Arabs and therefore can't be trusted. Assuming that the report would have been put together by people who are from nations that are members of ESCWA, claiming that those member nations are all hostile to Israel is a bit of a false claim. Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel, Iraq's too busy being occupied by the Yanks to be hostile to any other nation, and I'd be a bit shocked to find that Kuwait and Qatar are enemies of Israel. The reason why ESCWA doesn't have anything about suicide bombings in Israel, which I'm assuming is what yr talking about, is because Israel isn't a member of that group. Israel is a member of UNECE. If they were a member of ESCWA, and if it were discussed, it'd be in the context of how it affects the economy....

About yr edit: Maybe you meant it to be that when you posted it, but Jew isn't just a religious term. It defines a religious/cultural/ethnic group. There's many agnostic and atheist Jews who can tell you that it's not a religious term. And Arabs aren't a nationality. They're an ethnic group. Personally I don't believe in not trusting people based on their religion, nationality etc. So if you have problems with the report, then maybe you should stick to pointing out what was incorrect in it, rather than focusing on the ethnicity of the people who wrote it...

Violet...

[Darranar]

56. Not in this situation...

A person working fo rthe UN in such a group is an official reprsentative of their nation. Since the Arab nations are hostile to Israel, it is perfectly legitimate to say that this report is biased.

[wakfs]

68. Thank you

At least somebody agrees with me.

[Darranar]

69. I was a bit annoyed...

At some of those who posted attacking little details and ignoring the main point, so I contributed my opinion.

[CitizenDick]

76. Stereotypes based on ethnicity are not a little detail

Not all Arab states are hostile to Israel. Not all states that are hostile to Israel are Arab. An Arab may represent a state that is not primarily Arab.

Can we expect you to declare a U.N. report critical of an Arab country biased if you see a name that sounds Jewish?

[Darranar]

77. No...

because Jews are more widespread than Arabs. Though I agree that wakfs may have overstated his point, it still is a valid one.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. Actually...

There'd be people working in the various regional groups who are official representatives of the UN. The current Executive General of ESCWA is an Egyptian, but she's not a representative of Egypt, but of the UN. She's directly answerable to the Secretary-General. And, no. It's not perfectly legitimate to say that this report is biased, especially considering you haven't even read the report. How about if you are going to claim that something's biased, you actually point out the comments in the actual report that you think makes it biased rather than obsessing over the ethnicity of who may have written it?

Violet...

[Darranar]

79. I haven't read the report...

I can't judge it for bias. I was simply stating that the point wakfs raises is legitimate.

Indeed, some Arabs represent the UN and not their governments, but I don't believe for a second that they don't have strong ties to them, or could be there without their government's approval.

[Jim Sagle]

71. That's what the UN does best. What else DOES it do?

:shrug:

[Violet_Crumble]

75. So cryptic...

What does the UN do best, Jim? Anyway, if ever yr in the mood for a bit of education about what the UN does, there's a vast website of theirs that will clue you in on the many things they do...

Violet...