US left-wing bloggers to visit Sderot

[oberliner]

WASHINGTON – A group of influential bloggers from the left of the US Democratic party's spectrum will land in Israel on Thursday for a six-day visit.

The Foreign Affairs Ministry has long since been exerting considerable efforts to bring the prominent writers for an extensive tour of the country, in recognizing the influence many of the writers wield and the fact some of them represent websites that are less-than-friendly towards the Israel.

While Israel enjoys relatively balanced coverage in American mainstream media, there are numerous blogs identifying with the liberal left who are unwaveringly critical of Israeli policies, often referring to Israel as an apartheid state which, among other things, is responsible for Washington's decision to go to war in Iraq.

The unique tour was organized by the Solomon Project, which was founded in 1996 to "educate the American Jewish community about its rich history of civic involvement."

The bloggers, along with leaders from various progressive organizatios, will meet with Israeli bloggers, journalists and Knesset officials. They will also be briefed on the security situation in the region and Israel's civil society.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3529355,00.html

[breakaleg]

1. So, in an effort to show them the "complexity" of the conflict, will they also show them the rampant

expansion of settlements in non-Israeli territory? Will they introduce that lovely woman from Hebron who attacked a local family? How about the American children and teenagers who harass Palestinian school children every day?

Probably not.

[henank]

2. It doesn't mention settlements

anywhere in the article. It only mentions the bloggers being shown "Israel's narrow waistline". Is that a problem for you? Do you think these bloggers should not be shown the real proportions of Israel's geography? Are you scared it might make them sympathetic? You might have missed the little item that they are also scheduled to meet top Palestinian officials. Is that a problem for you too?

[breakaleg]

3. No. I think you can't show how complex it is by only showing one side.

That's fine. Let's not pretend this is in any way balanced. That's my point. Poor little Israel is the picture that they want to project. That's not the case.

[henank]

4. It is Israel's right

to present its case however it pleases. If it strikes the other side as unbalanced there is nothing to stop them from bringing the bloggers over to see their side of the story. As it is, Israel considers that the leftwing bloggers are generally anti-Israel and wants to correct that impression. That is an entirely legitimate endeavour, whehter you agree with their viewpoint or not.

[LeftishBrit]

6. Exactly

And this is an *invitation* which the bloggers are *accepting*. It's not as though they were being dragged in chains onto a plane to Israel against their will! And as you say, the Palestinians can do the same - in fact, they are already going to meet PA representatives.

[azurnoir]

5. No problem, no fear

If Israel believes these bloggers are unaware of Israel's geography or the narrow waistline they are most likely wrong, if the bloggers come back "changed men" they will lose their credibility period, every blogger is very well aware of the "propaganda war" going on the web and gee some forums as well, now what might happen is more sympathy for the people of Sderot themselves, but as for the government and policies that have created the reality, I doubt it.

[Vegasaurus]

7. The government of Israel didn't create terrorists

the Palestinians were trying to kill Jews long before any occupation, and now long since the occupation of Gaza has ended.

Terrorists are terrorists, and it isn't Israel's fault that they are such murderous thugs.

[azurnoir]

8. They who? n/t

[Vegasaurus]

9. They, the terrorists

are murderous thugs.

[pelsar]

11. thats rather funny to read.....

If Israel believes these bloggers are unaware of Israel's geography or the narrow waistline they are most likely wrong, if the bloggers come back "changed men" they will lose their credibility period,

i have read so much wrong information here, that people actually believe is true because people think/believe they actually know something about the conflict, the geography, the customs the culture..all from 10,000 miles away.

to think, they might go...see for their own eyes and if the additional information changes their mind, they will "lose their credibility!!!".

wow...quite an interesting view point....go out, get additional information about a conflict, modfiy your position because of that information, and instead of being curious as to why they changed their minds, they are to be rejected by their community!!!

it so reminds me of religion/cults, the second one questions the official posistion, kick them out!
__

but at least we know your position: new information is not needed, some have "all they need"

[azurnoir]

12. You've said your in advertising

just what is your "product" LOL.

Of course if one does not support Israels position we know nothing, but when I knew nothing I supported Israel.

My point is this if the bloggers are taken on an all expenses paid "tour" and do a 180 they will be considered bought, but spin it any way you please. I did say that they may become more sympathetic to the people of Sderot but your comment shows that is not the purpose of the tour at least not in your mind, how revealing.

BTW are you so sure none of these bloggers has never been to Israel before?

You should also note that I am not a fan of KOS and have visited MoveOn infrequently, I have to wonder did they invite Richard S?

And as far as geographay look at a map, no not the same as being there, and certainly not the same as being in the air and able to see "the blood thirsty enemy" a mere few miles away, maybe they will be convinced Israel has to fatten it's waist at the Palestinians expense.

[pelsar]

13. you made it clear...

a person receiving additional information... modifying his position by actually going to the conflict area.... loses credibility in their 'community".....

not much spin left on that one.

(its irrelevant who paid for their trip, if they've been before etc..your position was made crystal clear)

for all I know they'll go to sederot, see all the shelters and come back with the conclusion that no lives are in danger and its abunch of BS....or maybe they'll comeback confused as to why the gazans are trying to kill israeli children daily...that will be up to them.....(do yo think they are so simple minded that dont know why they're invited?)

[azurnoir]

14. So modifying and doing a

complete turnabout is the same to you? No I have stated that that they know why they were invited, or that they certainly know about the propaganda/PR war going on, they are part of it.
They are or should be aware that Israeli children are dieing but then so are Palestinian and they aware of that too. Most leftists or pro Palestinian tend despite all the accusations to the contrary blame both sides, where as rightist? or Pro-Israel tend blame only one side, that is what the trip seeks to change.
And who is footing the bill is very relevant, this is a lobby effort, no matter how it is dressed up.

[pelsar]

15. changing ones opinion is now bad?

a complete turn around and modifying ones position is one and the same...its called changing ones mind....for some it happens when they discover new facts and information..i didnt know that if one changes one position by 33.3° that is considered "acceptable" while 180° is not...how about 123° is that still ok?

true there are those that dont change their minds no matter what the facts are...they're sometimes called religious, sometimes parts of cults and sometimes "leftests"

this is new for me......i never noticed that:
{i]Most leftists or pro Palestinian tend despite all the accusations to the contrary blame both side....what i do notice is massive misinformation on that side....complete disregard for physical facts on the ground, and impossible expectations requested from the israelis......

is lobbying relevant?..to a point, but since its done everyday by everyone its not the only factor

[azurnoir]

17. nice try

what facts, the fact that Sderot is under attack? Surely they know the fact that people are suffering they surely know that too.

Now as for "cultish" thinking, viewing a situation through a monocular lens, blaming the victims on either side, ignoring the "facts" or distorting them beyond recognizable or ignoring them altogether no matter what, choosing to see only one side, these things are to a degree cultish behavior.

So you would trust a complete almost instantaneous change as long as it favored your side of an argument? You are sir are a far more trusting individual than I.

Now I found this "interesting"

...what i do notice is massive misinformation on that side....complete disregard for physical facts on the ground, and impossible expectations requested from the israelis......

The problem is a lack of or very one sided information available in Western media, except for until relatively recently the internet. we are supposed to disregard the facts on one side but totally accept as the only and absolute truth the facts on the other? Sounds rather "cultish" to me. Then there is the last bolded part which is what this is about "impossible expectations, like giving up the majority of West bank settlements?

A question have you ever had experience with an actual cult, not joining but closely observing? I have long ago, 2 to be exact Scientology and a group that at the time 1970's called it self "The OneWay" it was a right wing paramilitary Christian cult.

[pelsar]

18. one sided info?

i cant say for you..but i've been loaded with info from both sides..... I actually would question someone who had an "instantaneous change"...i would suspect that they are made of the same material that ends up in cults etc. But were not talking about that here, the guys that have been invited have knowledge and if they do change their views i doubt it will be instantaneous nor 180°. If anything they might walk away with a deeper appreciation for the limited options that israel has (something that doesnt get across here very well) and the dangers of a failed withdrawl, to both the Palestinians and Israelis.

cults?...unfortunatly my experiences involved the religious ones.....i've seen what they do to nice naive people. (I did take the Scientology exam once in a bus stop in a small town out west many years ago...it was fun for passing the time...i also took a book from the hare kirshna people in the airport also....).


as far as the facts go...if you've never seen the situation with your own eyes, its impossible to appreciate it...... my impossible expectations is about how the left prefers that israel get attacked and not respond in a way that will not only protect its own soldiers but be effective.

I have read constantly that israel has a disproportionate response, but i have yet to read what a proportionate response is.... how about sederot....its clear the left prefers that israel does not respond and let the kassams fall where they may...why do i know this...because if i ask what is your suggestion on how israel should respond, i will not get a definitive answer will i?..one that can be translated to actual actions on the ground. That is what an impossible expectation is.

"defend youself, but dont use any of todays technologies because they dont meet our minimum requirements for safety"...thats the basic line from the left.

[msmcghee]

19. The reason you don't get an answer to your question . .

. . is I suspect, because the real answer many of your respondents have in mind - is for Israel to be forced by world opinion to accept a one-state majority Arab end-game where Israel becomes a Jewish minority state - and takes on a new name as well - Palestine.

[azurnoir]

21. This "respondent" was busy, sorry

mundane stuff mostly.

[azurnoir]

20. Yep one sided info

I was speaking of the average American, we've discussed mainstream American news outlets before and they do tend to be one sided, Americans tend to be insular, geez has it been that long for you? Why did the M$M use the term seminary instead of yeshiva, when reporting the terrorist attack on the students in Jerusalem?

Cults, I worked for Scientology for 1 week, I was looking for a job and they said come work for us, in that week I saw enough answering phones and doing filing to convince me there was something seriously amiss there.
The oneway I was subletting an apartment from one of their members , she was leaveing on a "retreat" some camp in Ohio with them, but it got delayed for a month, again I got to observe closely. BTW she left and was not heard from again, her parents hired a private detective to try to find but they were unsuccessful, later I read about this camp being some kind of paramilitary installation

What kind of people- Scientology went for relatively well educated, well off people, the Christian groups went for people with drug and alcohol problems, transferring addictions I guess.

Now what should Israel do, as I have said before nothing positive will happen until the Palestinians reunite, that means Hamas and the PA, it might have worked the first time but.....
then they must police themselves, any interference, like the incident last month in Bethlehem from Israel and it all ends, as we saw last month. The rockets has the stomp with bigger boot worked so far? Not that anyone can tell

[pelsar]

22. like i wrote..the "progressive" prefers that israelis get bombed/attacked....

Now what should Israel do, as I have said before nothing positive will happen until the Palestinians reunite, that means Hamas and the PA, it might have worked the first time but.....

thats all "fine and dandy"....how about today or tomorrow?..... i take it from your response that israel should actually not do anything in defending its citizens in the meantime that might "disturb any reuniting of the Palestinians."

which translates to the "do nothing" and let your citizens get bombed.

________________

if i'm mistaken please put the suggestion for the IDF here*______________________________


*bear in mind the limitations of todays technologies, human error etc

[azurnoir]

23. For once why don't you answer your own question

I have answered it several times, you do not accept the answer or twist it around to the same old tired charge "Israel should not do anything", and then add Progressives prefer Israel get bombed? Puleez when that is not what I've said. What is it you want here?

[pelsar]

24. a straight answer that can be turned into an "action"

simple:

What should the IDF do today or tomorrow if anything to stop the kassms? (and other attacks on the borders)


very simple question.

[azurnoir]

25. A simple question

I answered months ago, not one thing. There is really nothing IDF can do to stop attacks, nothing IDF has done stops attacks.

So what do think can be done IDF or otherwise?

[pelsar]

26. do nothing...

ok perhaps i missed your answer........so if the IDF does nothing as is your suggestion...doesnt that mean that the Kassam and mortar shooters get a free hand to shoot and terrorize israelis at will?

I'll get to your question, i just want to make it crystal clear what your suggestions are or arent for the israelis underfire now and who have been for the last several years.

I'm assuming, and please feel free to correct me, that when the IDF does blow up missile launcher, kill Palestinians of all types, this is considered non acceptable to you because of the civilians deaths. Feel free to correct if i am wrong.

[azurnoir]

27. Correction

I said that there is nothing IDF can do to stop kassams, which is different from "do nothing". Nothing IDF has done so far has worked, not occupation, not bombing, not running raids.

[Vegasaurus]

28. So, then Pelsar is right

if the IDF can "do nothing" (your words), then your preferred alternative is constant Hamas and IJ terrorism, rockets falling on Israeli cities, etc.

And you are fine with that alternative, correct?

[azurnoir]

29. No

I said that, all I did was point out a fact, but do keep catapulting. Actually I expected another conclusion, and not the one your trying to "sell".

[pelsar]

30. actually your wrong....

when the IDF takes out a kassam launcher...kills the crew, kills the planners.....that means there are less kassams being shot. When the IDF has missiles attacking hamasnikim it means they are under pressure to shoot and leave....pay less attention to where the kassams land. Mortars are fired ....and the crew leaves fast, inorder not to get killed, they dont stay, adjust their aim and shoot again.

All of the actions by the IDF keeps the pressure on, limits the kassams being fired, their accuracy and kills the attackers as well as those nearby.
_______

you have made it clear that you believe that the IDF should stop attacking gaza/hamas/islamic jihad etc

the consequence of no IDF action would mean better aiming for the hamasnikim, no pressure on setting up and shooting ......with the obvious consequence of more israelis terrorized and killed.

Actions and non actions have consequences, you have made your preferences clear, you may not be so comfortable with it, but in this world of limited options, you obviously prefer to let the hamasnkikm terrorize/kill israelis "in peace" without worrying about themselves being killed.

____

if my conclusion is wrong, then please explain what your suggestion is for the IDF to actually do tomorrow......(for example)

[azurnoir]

31. This is quite obviously the "party" line

you have made it clear that you believe that the IDF should stop attacking gaza/hamas/islamic jihad etc

Actions and non actions have consequences, you have made your preferences clear, you may not be so comfortable with it, but in this world of limited options, you obviously prefer to let the hamasnkikm terrorize/kill israelis "in peace" without worrying about themselves being killed.

But that does not make it true, my point was that it does not matter what IDF does, killing large numbers of Palestinians does not stop kassam's, any other conclusion as to what I meant is wishful thinking or sheer propaganda catapulting on your part.

[pelsar]

32. so clarify....lets try again...

do you believe that when the the IDF destroys kassams, their launchers, the people launching etc.....does it mean there are less kassams landing on israeli territory? (less terrorism on israeli cities?)

this is even a simpler version of what i've already asked a couple of times.....

[azurnoir]

33. answer

"do you believe that when the the IDF destroys kassams, their launchers, the people launching etc.....does it mean there are less kassams landing on israeli territory? (less terrorism on israeli cities?)"

Yes, but for about speaking euphemistically, about 5 minutes then there is another martyr to take that ones place, and then it begins again, and again, and again, this is the problem.

[pelsar]

34. got it....

so because the hamas and friends are willing to take a chance on getting killed when shooting their kassams and others will take their place.....israel shouldnt bother trying to stop them using todays technologies

at least we've cleared that up.


jihadnkim shoot at israeli citiizens and the IDF, according to you should not try and stop them....because Innocent Palestenians may be killed in the process and there are more of them anyway


so how is my conclusion wrong?...your preference is that the jihadnikim shoot and terrorize without being interfered with by the IDF...you have stated that very clearly.

[Shaktimaan]

35. I think what he's saying is that

the IDF is unable to exert any kind of serious or lasting influence on the launching of Qassams, while the civilian toll is so high as to make their efforts counter-productive, or at least ethically problematic considering the few Israelis actually killed by them. I don't think he's suggesting that Israel do nothing, I believe he thinks Israel should pursue a policy of ending the conflict diplomatically and can afford to ignore the relatively low casualties caused by the rockets until an agreement is realized.

Personally, I think that advances in Palestinian rocketry will soon make this policy even less attractive than it already is for most Israelis. While Israel's influence on the Qassam launches might be minimal that isn't reason to abandon all attempts at defense. This would have the immediate effect of vastly increasing the amount of launches on Sderot.

Unfortunately this is a situation that lacks any real solution, for the time being at least. I forget who used to say, "We will fight terrorism as though there were no peace process, and pursue peace as though there were no terrorism," but I always approved of it as a general policy. Israel is a democracy and has a responsibility to provide the best defense for its citizens as possible. Any politician who backed a policy of "abandoning" Sderot would find themselves on unemployment soon enough, and with good reason.

There's an element in Gaza that will continue these attacks regardless of advances in the peace process and their actions have to be considered. As long as terrorism exists independently of the peace process then the IDF must have a policy in place to defend against them, also independent of any peace process. A treaty won't be worth the paper it is written on if it requires Israel to ignore constant rockets falling on Sderot and Ashkelon and then.... where?

[pelsar]

36. actually i know what he is saying...

and i believe you explained it well:
the IDF is unable to exert any kind of serious or lasting influence on the launching of Qassams, while the civilian toll is so high as to make their efforts counter-productive, or at least ethically problematic considering the few Israelis actually killed by them

but that is not the real story:
If the IDF were to declare (as i believe is his suggestion) that the IDF will no longer pursue or attack those launching Kassams, the jihadnikim would then have "field day" setting up, launching, adjusting for the next salvo and finally getting their aim proper for each batch of kassams. They no longer would have to produce them in secret and with limiting conditions but develop proper factories (with perhaps ISO approval)...the result of all ths would not be the terrorizing of a whole city and its environs, but more precision in their shooting, greater terrorism and greater israeli casualties. The constant IDF pressure limits not just their precision, but the quantities as well to a certain degree......

and he is also saying that israel should "ignore" the affects and principle of being attacked daily from a society on its border. I'm sure the residents of sederot would appreciate that policy as well.

his bottom line is precisly what i wrote: given the situation and his moral values, its preferable to have israelis remain as victims of terrorism and do nothing to stop it....i think that was tried by our relatives not too long ago-it didnt work out too well for us.

why doesnt he believe that the Gazans should be the "victims of terrorism" and do nothing about it?

_______

as far as any peace process...the second the hamas govt decides its no longer in their interests to have kassams shot from their territory only then will things change. Israel has always accepted the occasional attacks from egypt and jordan as long as there is a serious effort to stop them, so too will it be with gaza

[azurnoir]

40. Uh ha

If the IDF were to declare (as i believe is his suggestion) that the IDF will no longer pursue or attack those launching Kassams, the jihadnikim would then have "field day" setting up, launching, adjusting for the next salvo and finally getting their aim proper for each batch of kassams. They no longer would have to produce them in secret and with limiting conditions but develop proper factories (with perhaps ISO approval)...the result of all ths would not be the terrorizing of a whole city and its environs, but more precision in their shooting, greater terrorism and greater israeli casualties. The constant IDF pressure limits not just their precision, but the quantities as well to a certain degree......

and he is also saying that israel should "ignore" the affects and principle of being attacked daily from a society on its border. I'm sure the residents of sederot would appreciate that policy as well.

his bottom line is precisly what i wrote: given the situation and his moral values, its preferable to have israelis remain as victims of terrorism and do nothing to stop it....i think that was tried by our relatives not too long ago-it didnt work out too well for us.

why doesnt he believe that the Gazans should be the "victims of terrorism" and do nothing about it

My you read can read alot in to pointing out that killing on both sides only leads to more of the same. So you think you've "got it", maybe it's contagious cause I could read your comment

jihadnkim shoot at israeli citiizens and the IDF, according to you should not try and stop them....because Innocent Palestenians may be killed in the process and there are more of them anyway

as meaning it is OK to kill Palestinian civilians because there are more of them anyway or they reproduce faster

BTW thanx for the rather left handed "compliment" you seem to think I've grown a "set"

[pelsar]

41. if i am wrong..

than please explain where exactly i "dont get it"

you believe as i understand it that israel should not attack the jihadnikim

if they dont...what exactly do you believe the jihadnimik will do, knowing that the IDF will not attack them? and what will be the consequence of that policy?

[azurnoir]

42. The situation is mutually unproductive

you keep insisting I am saying that Israel should not attack, I am not. If Israel (and the militants) wish to pursue a course that has produced nothing but dead and mangled bodies, who am I to say different?

Both parties have o decide to act differently. As I have said before only the Palestinians can stop the rockets.

[Shaktimaan]

43. so...

you are merely saying "war is bad?"

Um, OK, I'll agree. The thing is though, it is kind of a generic point of view. It's easy to say "Both parties have o decide to act differently." But since each side only has control over their own actions we are left with the question of what the best course of action for each side is. This obviously depends on what their respective goals are.

If Israel (and the militants) wish to pursue a course that has produced nothing but dead and mangled bodies, who am I to say different?

If there is a course of action available to Israel that does not lead to dead and mangled bodies that you're aware of then I'd love to hear about it. Israel's desire is to have the least amount of dead and mangled Israelis possible. IYO, what options are available to it that best achieves this goal?

As I have said before only the Palestinians can stop the rockets.

Of course. But that doesn't mean Israel has no influence. They can raise (or lower) the cost of launching rockets by increasing (or decreasing) their response to them.

[azurnoir]

44. War is bayad.......... um kaaay lol

ya I suppose but what I have been trying to say relates more to this-

"They can raise (or lower) the cost of launching rockets by increasing (or decreasing) their response to them".

Price does not seem to be much of an "object" here or the constant raids and occational invasions would have worked so what kill more? I doubt that the people of Gaza are going to raise what would surely be a bloody insurrection against Hamas. So what does that leave us with but new elections, hopefully uncontaminated by any other government(US), and back to where I started the WB and Gaza have to reunite, no matter who likes it or not, without that nothing will change, without new leaders nothing will change, Abbas at this point is too distrusted and Haniyeh is considered an outlaw, and the one who could be an acceptable choice to Palestinians is sitting in an Israeli prison.

[pelsar]

45. on the contrary...

price is very much part of the object here as well as the physical reduction of the amount of rockets fired in to israel.

you seem to think such things are irrelevant to the citizens of israel as they are under attack daily.....which is why, as you have stated that you prefer that israel do nothing with the consequence of the jihadnikim being able to fire their rockets without being disturbed.....

[azurnoir]

47. This has become a zen exercise

"price is very much part of the object here as well as the physical reduction of the amount of rockets fired in to israel.

I was speaking of the Palestinians, you seem to think that killing more them will somehow stop the rockets, I disagree.

you seem to think such things are irrelevant to the citizens of israel as they are under attack daily.....which is why, as you have stated that you prefer that israel do nothing with the consequence of the jihadnikim being able to fire their rockets without being disturbed.....

so saying that present course both sides are following leads to more death and destruction, means Israel should do nothing? That is pretty one track thinking, but as you are Israeli I'll take your word for it, as the opinion of one Israeli. However nowhere have I said Israel should do nothing about the rockets.

[Vegasaurus]

48. So what should Israel do about the rockets?

Have a party with Hamas?

[msmcghee]

46. The logical fallacy in your position is that . .

. . you say that Israel's response has not stopped the rockets. But, you make no allowance for how many more dead Israelis would result from failing to respond as they are. It is that difference between how many Israelis are being killed and injured now vs. how many would be killed and injured otherwise - that justifies Israel's response.

Israel apparently believes their current level of defense is working for that purpose.

Your position is similar to saying that since chemotherapy can only halt or reduce 60% of cancer deaths per year - we should stop using chemotherapy with all cancer patients. No-one knows for sure how many additional cancer deaths would result but it's obviously useful to make that guess - and even to overuse that imperfect defense to some extent, just to be sure. We know it saves lives.

The same is true for defense against terrorism. Since Israel is the party being attacked, they get to decide where that balance lies. If the Palestinians don't like where Israel draws that line they are free to stop their attacks against Israeli civilians any time they wish - and thereby prevent all Israeli incursions into Gaza to stop the rockets.

As usual, the pro-Palestinain side has no concept of the difference between aggression - and defense from aggression. It's really a simple concept. I suspect there is a desire not to recognize it since when it is acknowledged, the morality of the situation becomes quite bad for the Palestinians.

[azurnoir]

49. Your logic?

you say that Israel's response has not stopped the rockets. But, you make no allowance for how many more dead Israelis would result from failing to respond as they are. It is that difference between how many Israelis are being killed and injured now vs. how many would be killed and injured otherwise - that justifies Israel's response.

Pure conjecture, it is unknown just how many rockets were stopped, those that were stopped were replaced by others and how many Israeli lives were saved? Were any? If a hundred rockets were stopped was one life saved?

Israel apparently believes their current level of defense is working for that purpose.

Do they? The current government of Israel is deeply divided and the "leadership" is trying to stay afloat and keep the government together as it were.

Your position is similar to saying that since chemotherapy can only halt or reduce 60% of cancer deaths per year - we should stop using chemotherapy with all cancer patients. No-one knows for sure how many additional cancer deaths would result but it's obviously useful to make that guess - and even to overuse that imperfect defense to some extent, just to be sure. We know it saves lives.

Is that so, the problem here is that the number of lives saved or not by chemo for cancer (your example was quite broad) is and has been definitively quantified and those therapies that work kept and refined and those that do not discarded.

[pelsar]

50. strange math....and little knowledge....

rockets were stopped, those that were stopped were replaced by others

huh?....rockets that were stopped...did not land on sederot. Rockets that were sent afterwards were sent as part of the daily strikes attempts against israel. When the IDF destroys some rockets, it means those rockets, i.e. fewer rockets will land in israel.....this is difficult to understand?

10 rockets prepared 3 rockets destroyed = 7 rockets launched.

this is actually just made up on your part
The current government of Israel is deeply divided and the "leadership" is trying to stay afloat and keep the government together as it were.
in the history of israeli govts this one is not deeply divided and having no trouble staying afloat....so why did you write this?

and its not just lives saved...its the terrorism itself that is being somewhat limited and the people of sederot knowing that the IDF hasnt "left them behind".
_______

However nowhere have I said Israel should do nothing about the rockets.

you seem never to say what israel should do about the rockets for today or tomorrow, I've been waiting for that answer for quite some time now.

_________

(wasnt it you who wrote that israel doesnt mind the kassams because there are no sabras down there sederot?)

[azurnoir]

52. Paraphrase, and spin

My quote "it is unknown just how many rockets were stopped, those that were stopped were replaced by others and how many Israeli lives were saved? Were any? If a hundred rockets were stopped was one life saved?"

so you claim 3 in 10 are stopped? Any sources for those numbers, but lets go with it

Qassams were first fired at Israeli targets in October 2001. The first Qassam to land in Israeli territory was launched on February 10, 2002. The first time an Israeli city was hit was on March 5, 2002, when two rockets struck Sderot. Some rockets have hit as far as the edge of Ashkelon. The total number of Qassam rockets launched exceeded 1000 by June 9, 2006. During the year 2006 alone, 1000+ rockets were launched. As of February 2008, 14 people have been killed by Qassam rockets.

If 3 out 10 are stopped that's about 1/3 and since 2001 14 Israeli's have been killed by Kassams that is 5 Israeli lives saved, 5 lives are important and the fact that saving those 5 lives cost the lives of of hundreds Palestinians who were not taking part in hostilities is more than well worth it to some and I remember you seeming to say a few posts back that their(Palestinians) lives really don't matter there are more or was it too many of them anyway. So if this not true what would you do about the rockets?

I found this interesting though

The introduction of the Qassam rocket took Israeli politicians and military experts by surprise.<3> Reactions have been mixed.<4> The Israeli Ministry of Defense views the Qassams as "more a psychological than physical threat."<5> The rockets are fired largely at civilian populations. The IDF has reacted to the deployment of the Qassam rockets by deploying the Red Color early warning system in Sderot, Ashkelon and other at-risk targets. The system consists of an advanced radar that detects rockets as they are being launched. Loudspeakers warn civilians to take cover approximately fifteen seconds before impact in an attempt to minimize the threat posed by the rockets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

As for me saying Israel should do nothing no I did not, what should Israel do? Don't know, the feeling I get from your and others posts is that Israel seems content to kill large numbers of Palestinians

Now as for the Israeli government I suppose the recent articles about Knesset walkouts by certain parties are what lies? And Olmert is one of the strongest and most popular PM's in years? The next election will be a shoe in for him then. Not to mention Olmert and Barak are on the same page peace process wise?

And oh yeah the Sabra's in Sderot I believe I said "old school Ashkenazim Sabra's like do Olmert's, Sharon's or Meir's kids live there?

[Vegasaurus]

53. I'm sure that those killed by the rockets

and their relatives, see the rockets as more than a "psychological threat".

If you think living with the threat of rockets falling on your home, school, playground, store, etc. is merely a pesky nuisance, you are pretty deluded.

And you still haven't said what Israel should do, aside from ignore them. Sorry, but if you had rockets falling on your head, I guarantee you would expect the US government to stop them. So, let's get some real advice from you, as to what the Israeli government can do to stop the rockets, aside from nothing.

[Dick Dastardly]

54. That is a dishonest argument

If 3 out 10 are stopped that's about 1/3 and since 2001 14 Israeli's have been killed by Kassams that is 5 Israeli lives saved, 5 lives are important and the fact that saving those 5 lives cost the lives of of hundreds Palestinians who were not taking part in hostilities is more than well worth it to some and I remember you seeming to say a few posts back that their(Palestinians) lives really don't matter there are more or was it too many of them anyway. So if this not true what would you do about the rockets?


That is a dishonest argument. It not about whose lives are worth what its about a country has a right to protect itself. Hamas is responsible for any innocents killed, they are the elected leaders, they launch attacks, they hide behind civillians and they are in control. How many German, Japanese and Italian civillians were killed by the allies defending themselves from the Axis. The priorty of the Allies was not Axis civillians but Allies. This is true in any conflict except it seems when it comes to Israel defending itself. Innocent or not the civillians have some responsibility for what their Government and people do in any conflict. The Israeli Gov has a responsibility to protect its citizens not its enemies. This does not mean they can or should just target civillians specifically or use excessive reckless force but their first concern is Israeli civilians and if some Palestinian civillians are killed its sad and tragic but its the Palestinian government who is responsible

[azurnoir]

56. hmmmm

That is a dishonest argument. It not about whose lives are worth what its about a country has a right to protect itself. Hamas is responsible for any innocents killed, they are the elected leaders, they launch attacks, they hide behind civillians and they are in control. How many German, Japanese and Italian civillians were killed by the allies defending themselves from the Axis. The priorty of the Allies was not Axis civillians but Allies. This is true in any conflict except it seems when it comes to Israel defending itself. Innocent or not the civillians have some responsibility for what their Government and people do in any conflict. The Israeli Gov has a responsibility to protect its citizens not its enemies. This does not mean they can or should just target civillians specifically or use excessive reckless force but their first concern is Israeli civilians and if some Palestinian civillians are killed its sad and tragic but its the Palestinian government who is responsible

Seems like last week you calling Israel's actions an "atrocity", now it's just self defense and Hamas is responsible for all civilian death, interesting.

The real question is was I making an aurgument at all or simply pointing out facts, and yes I believe Pelsars numbers as to rockets stopped by Israel was high, which is exactly why I used it.
Yes a country has right to defend it self, which Israel is doing and as I have said if Israel wishes to pursue this course of action then so be it, but do not expect that peace and global approval will result.

[pelsar]

55. an answer of "dont know"...is at least an answer....

so that is at least something.
As for me saying Israel should do nothing no I did not, what should Israel do? Don't know

___________________
i didnt bother replying to this, since it is so absurd, that i didnt want to waste any space on it:
I remember you seeming to say a few posts back that their(Palestinians) lives really don't matter there are more or was it too many of them anyway

again about the knesset....your knowledge of israeli politics is very limited, you shouldnt be making assumptions about how the coalition politics works.

about the old school Ashkenazim like sharons kids?..again you show how little you know about israel. Sharons farm is just outside Sederot 1 km south east to be exact...and his kids do live there (ones in jail presently).
_____

the numbers of rockets i used was just made up, in fact i dont have an idea of how many were destroyed....i was writing about the principle of rockets destroyed means less rockets landing. Where you write the defense ministry views the threat as more psychological, that was true..before the port of askelon and the city were in range....huge gas and fuel tanks are now within range....one being hit would cause a lot more than mere psychological damage. Besides the citizens of israel also have aright to be protected against psychological terrorism as well.

it comes down to the citizens of israel dont have to live with an "i dont know' and the govt of israel has to supply them with an answer. Thats what responsible govts do. Irresponsible govts, as in Hamas, dont give a shit, or worse use their citizens as human shields so that nice progressives and leftest can complain when israel attempts to limit the rockets they keep shooting daily in to israel.

israels attempts are not perfect, nor can anyone with any basic knowledge of the military would expect a perfect response, but the IDF still has the responsibility to do what it can..the IDF nor the govt of israel are willing to let its citizens be the victims of years of rocket fire, no matter what their skin color is or where they came from.

the real responsibility lies with the govt that is letting and supporting the daily attempts to kill israelis. any moral outrage goes to them, not to the ones who are attempting to stop the rockets. Remind me again why they shoot the rockets, attack the fuel depot, incoming aid trucks?...i keep forgetting.....

[azurnoir]

57. I stand corrected about Sharon's kids

Now as for this-{i]i didnt bother replying to this, since it is so absurd, that i didnt want to waste any space on it:
I remember you seeming to say a few posts back that their(Palestinians) lives really don't matter there are more or was it too many of them anyway

That is as absurd as your repeated insistence that I am saying "Israel should do nothing about the rockets".

What amazes me is the black or white nature of your arguments we either "stomp with big boot" or do nothing, no nuance, diplomacy is out of the question, nothing but kill or be killed.

I have made suggestions about what needs to happen but they are not what you want, so you ignore them and then try to interpret as with the standard whine "the leftists say Israel should do nothing" and "its all Israel's fault" when it truth for you the problem is that we "leftists" don't find it to be 101% the other guys fault.

[pelsar]

58. i am very aware of not just the nuances, but the difficulties on the ground....

your suggestions are about diplomacy.....incase you didnt notice diplomacy takes time, the problem that israel faces and sederot and ashkelon are rockets that fall daily.

at least you do have an answer for the immediate problem: " dont know."

the only problem with that, is that it doesnt work. it leaves the rockets still falling on sederot doesnt it? Not living in israel, not being part of the govt or the IDF you have the luxury of being able to not have an answer.....and if that is the "leftest/progressive answer, it explains why they dont get much credit over here.

___

my interest is an acknowledgement of the complexity....


and blame?..nothing is ever 50/50 in life. There are policies and events that puts the responsibility and fault squarely on israel...there are other events and policies where the blame is on the Palestinians, others are mixed.

Solutions start with at least accepting the basic facts and then moving on from there......


1 israel is not using a "big boot" but a relatively small one....

2 gaza is the prime black and white example of the Palestinians not just failing to take advantage of an opportunity, but of preferring to try to kill israelis as opposed to putting resources into their own society. You have to really twist things to blame israel for the gaza govt and friends constant attacks on israel....and on the border stations at that.

3. The gazans are not starving, its not a concentration camp, there is no genocide, Egypt has kept it border shut to the gazans......

4. One may believe that the larger amount of Palestinian deaths in stopping the kassams is not worth the fewer israeli deaths and terrorized cities, that is a value judgement that expresses a preference. That preference is perfectly ok given a situation of limited options. That judgment may in fact express your values, It doesnt express mine.

[azurnoir]

59. some answers

1 israel is not using a "big boot" but a relatively small one....

I would suppose the boot is small compared to what Israel could do, look at South Lebanon, however F-16's and helicopter gun ships doesn't seem exactly small either

2 gaza is the prime black and white example of the Palestinians not just failing to take advantage of an opportunity, but of preferring to try to kill israelis as opposed to putting resources into their own society. You have to really twist things to blame israel for the gaza govt and friends constant attacks on israel....and on the border stations at that.

Twist things? Not really the facts that the current situation in Gaza was created in no small part by outside interference mostly by my government and one really doesn't have to twist to far

3. The gazans are not starving, its not a concentration camp, there is no genocide, Egypt has kept it border shut to the gazans......

we'll agree not starving, not a concentration camp, but trying to bring Egypt in to it is meaningless why should Egypt stick it's neck out?

4. One may believe that the larger amount of Palestinian deaths in stopping the kassams is not worth the fewer israeli deaths and terrorized cities, that is a value judgement that expresses a preference. That preference is perfectly ok given a situation of limited options. That judgment may in fact express your values, It doesnt express mine.

Now for values so as for lives saved vs lives spent, B'tselem gives the number of Palestinian non-combatants killed in the OPT since 2000 as 2163, the article I post gives the year the kassams started as 2001 so divide 2163/7=309, 2163-309=1854 that is bring down the number to reflect an average from 2001-the present, seeing that B'tselem does not separate deaths in Gaza from those in the Wst Bank we'll divide 1854/2=927, so we have and yes this is very likely inaccurate and low for Gaza 927 deaths in Gaza from 2001 to present, that equals 66 Palestinians killed for every 1 Israeli killed and 185 Palestinian deaths for every 1 hypothetical Israeli saved, but those are your values.
Now as for your assumptions and implications about mine, the preference you say I express, just what would that be? Arabs over Jews? Does it ever occur that if those same numbers were reversed most of us "leftists" would be just as outraged at the Palestinians.

[pelsar]

60. the implication is not ...

arabs over jews.....that implies anti semitism and i dont think that is the case here.

what i do believe is happening is a knee jerk reaction for the "loser"....the one whos lives are not just bad but getting more and more miserable. Its not "natural" to blame the one whos lives are miserable for their situation, hence the need to blame israel.

In this particular case, that is precisely the point......the group whos lives are miserable dont get a free pass. One of the prime reasons why their lives seem to be getting worse and worse are their own actions. A prime example is attacking the fuel depot.....i keep wondering how stupid can they get..and then they surprise me again.

Even "victims" have to be responsible for their actions...the left/progressive it seems doesnt like that concept. And its that, that i dont accept.

the short history of the occupation, and i wont be defending the occupation, but looking at the statistics shows that the Palestinians had a far higher standard of living and freedom many years ago. Their subsequent actions (the wrong resistant) turned the occupation into a nightmare for them.....one can blame the "victim" when its the 'victim" that has actions that are not responsable and subsequently makes their situation worse.

(Laws recognizes this with the idea that one cannot shoot an unarmed burglar )



(The actual numbers of deaths and ratios don't tell the real story....thats a very superficial way of determining the "good and bad".)

[Dick Dastardly]

61. Not totally true

(Laws recognizes this with the idea that one cannot shoot an unarmed burglar )


You only need to fear for bodily harm or for ones own or loved ones life. In many states that does not even matter because they use the castle doctrine where the mere fact of the burgular in your home (castle includes not just home but car, place of business or any personal area ) gives you the right to shoot him and in some states like Texas your neighbor can even shoot the burgular from a window of his own home to protect your property

[pelsar]

62. accepted..... i was generalizing....

and didnt do in fact any research into the subject.....

[Vegasaurus]

51. The questions remains

Should Israel do anything about the rockets, and if so, what?

Should they simply ignore them?

[Vegasaurus]

16. No, you are wrong

Most leftists (not all, but most) seem to blame only Israel.

It is here in black and white every day on DU.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. I sure hope Jebalya is on the itinerary! nt

[legin]

37. I've been overlooked again

this was from a post of mine FIVE years ago (where does the time go, I thought it was only one or two)

From a thread titled:
Ga. lawmakers set for visit to Israel (including Denise Majette)

(snip)

"On a related note I would like to say that as I have no morals and it has been frigging raining all week in britain (like normal), my support on various issues is up for sale in the marketplace. A fully paid for nine day holiday somewhere where the sun shines with lots of nice food could seriously effect how I think about things in the future."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x3853#4294

----------------------------------------------------------------
I think from memory that someone from this lot (or it may have been another) afterwards went on a fact finding mission to Iraq and said how well things were going.

[legin]

38. I need to feel important too !

Yakking with Olmert or Livni over dinner will really bloat my ego nicely.

[bemildred]

39. You just want the free vacation. nt