Israel closes Gaza border crossings

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Move comes in wake of Palestinian militant rocket fire, amid peace talks
The Associated Press
updated 7:23 a.m. ET, Fri., Jan. 18, 2008
JERUSALEM - Israel has ordered all border crossings into Gaza temporarily closed, further slashing the flow of vital supplies to the coastal strip in a bid to pressure its Hamas rulers to stop rocket attacks into Israeli towns, defense officials said Friday.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak’s decision was prompted by an escalation of rocket fire following an Israeli anti-rocket raid in Gaza that left 19 Palestinians dead Tuesday, including the son of a prominent Hamas leader.

It was not immediately clear which supplies would not be allowed into strip, said Defense Ministry spokesman Shlomo Dror. The territory, home to 1.4 million Palestinians, receives food and humanitarian supplies from Israel and aid organizations.

“It’s time that Hamas decide to either fight or take care of its population,” Dror said. “It’s unacceptable that people in (the southern Israeli town of) Sderot are living in fear every day and people in the Gaza Strip are living life as usual.”

--------------------------------------

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22723827/

[ProgressiveMuslim]

1. The last line shows the complete insanity of the IDF.

If life in Gaza under this year-long siege is "normal".... i'm speechless.

[Vegasaurus]

2. There is no reason that Israel needs to offer anything or open crossings

when the "government" of Gaza has made clear that annihilating Israel is its goal.

Hamas has two choices: govern its people like a real government (which means put their welfare first), or keep up its goal of annhiliating Israel. The latter plan is not working out too well.

[kayecy]

3. Note how subtle the IDF is .....

“It’s unacceptable that people in (the southern Israeli town of) Sderot are living in fear every day and people in the Gaza Strip are living life as usual.”

Note how subtle the IDF is. It did not say 'normal' which foreigners might think ridiculous by western standards, instead it said 'usual' which is probably correct.

The people in Gaza are living in fear every day, as 'usual' from the targeted killings, closures, international blockade etc.

The people of Sderot are living in fear every day too, but they do have the advantage of no closures, no incursions and no international blockades.

[Vegasaurus]

4. But Hamas has a choice

They wouldn't have to have closures, insursions or blockades.

They would just have to give up the goal of getting rid of Israel and trying to blow up as many Israelis as possible.

I guarantee, if they stopped, there would be no more closures. But every time the gates are open, the Palestinian militants try to blow someone up. Kind of a lose-lose situation for them.

[acmavm]

5. Maybe if the illegal land and water grabs by Israelis stopped

there COULD be some progress made toward a settlement. Ever think of that??

[Vegasaurus]

6. There is no land or water grab in Gaza

and yet the rockets fall

And considering that there is no unity government, one can look at the situation in Gaza separately.

[acmavm]

8. Stealing land on the West Bank and houses in Jerusalem

affects the WHOLE DAMN AREA.

Don't act so disingenuous.

[pelsar]

9. a small correction.. .

Stealing land ...... and houses in Jerusalem

i believe the homes in Jerusalem are actually bought.....(though its true that for the arabs who sell, the penalty can be death)......There are some who believe jews, because they are jews, shouldnt be allowed to buy homes in E jerusalem

[acmavm]

10. A bigger correction

<snip>

Israelis use barrier and 55-year-old law to quietly seize Palestinians' land
CHRIS McGREAL
Guardian, 31 January 2005

Bethlehem -- The Israeli government has quietly seized thousands of acres of Palestinian-owned land in and around east Jerusalem after a secret cabinet decision to use a 55-year-old law against Arabs separated from farms and orchards by the vast "security barrier".

Most of the hundreds of Palestinian families whose land has been confiscated without compensation have not been formally notified that their property has been transferred to the Israeli state. But plans have already been drawn up to expand Jewish settlements on to some of the expropriated territory.

The move has drawn stinging criticism from the Palestinian leadership and some Israelis, who call it "legalised theft" and say it is evidence that the vast steel and concrete barrier under construction through the West Bank and Jerusalem is less for security than a move to expand Israel's borders.

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1485

-MORE-

<snip>

Friday, December 7, 2007
U.S. wants details on plan to build homes in East Jerusalem
U.S. wants details on plan to build homes in East Jerusalem
By Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondent, and Agencies Last update - 07:41
07/12/2007
www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932108.html

The U.S. has requested that Israel provide clarifications on its plan to
build more than 300 new homes in an East Jerusalem neighborhood, Israeli
officials confirmed to Haaretz on Thursday.

The new housing would expand Har Homa, a Jewish neighborhood in an area
Palestinians claim as the capital of a future state. The Palestinians call
the area Jabal Abu Ghneim, and Palestinian officials have appealed to the
U.S. to block the project.

The officials said U.S. diplomats who met with senior government officials
in Jerusalem this week said that Washington hoped to gain insight on what
the construction project would mean for the peace process.

According to the officials, the Americans said they wanted to know "what
this thing is exactly and where it's coming from." The officials told
Haaretz that they had explained to the Americans that the construction of
the 307 housing units was approved long before the Annapolis peace summit
that took place last month.

"We told them this was nothing new, and that anyway this was a construction
project inside Jerusalem, which is Israel's capital, and that we regard this
as perfectly legitimate."

According to the road map, Israel is supposed to cease all settlement
construction. But Israel does not consider construction in East Jerusalem to
be settlement activity.

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=37141

-MORE-

<snip>

Palestinians: Settlers throw stones at boy, steal his donkey
By Mijal Grinberg, Haaretz Correspondent
Tags: Israel, Tuba, Ta'ayush

West Bank settlers thew stones at a Palestinian boy and stole his donkey in the village of Tuba on Saturday, according to Palestinian reports.

The incident reportedly occured after some 150 left-wing activists marched in protest against the long route Palestinian children are forced to take to get to school from their South Hebron Hills village.

Children from Tuba go to school in Twane, a nearby village, via a lengthy and indirect path, in order to avoid harrassment from residents of the Havot Ma'on settlement.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929977.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I could go on all day like this. But I have things to do, much better things to do than arguing with people who don't have a damn leg to stand on.

[pelsar]

14. then be accurate

your claimed stolen houses.....your article does not mention houses.....

[acmavm]

17. What the hell do you think is on their land?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. The objective is not "no more closures." The goal is *freedom *

for the people of Palestine. From the looks of the last 40 years, it sure doesn't seem like an ojbective Israel shares.

Have Palestinians lived under perpetual tyranny because they are "bad?"

[Vegasaurus]

11. Palestinians did not live under perpetual tyranny for the first 20 years

after Israeli statehood. They had ample chances for freedom, which were not realized. Why did national aspirations not become a goal for any of those 20 years, and why was the PLO established before the '67 war?

[kayecy]

12. Have you any evidence?

Have you any evidence that Palestinians did not want a Palestinians state pre 1967? It took the Jews 2,000 years to make national aspirations a goal and form a Zionist entity.

[Vegasaurus]

13. The point was there was no "perpetual tyranny" for those 20 years

and plenty of chance for freedom. In fact, the UN etc efforts were to make two independent and free states, remember?

[azurnoir]

15. The UN partition plan

along with "they started it", is touted much on this forum as justification for the continued occupation One question however-Was the amount of land allocated to the "Jews" adequate for the needs at that time, considering how many refugees were waiting to enter?

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

31. Some "simplistic" research

Jewish population Palestine/Israel

1941-474,102

1944-554,000 +80,000

1946-608,225 +60,000

1948- no numbers I could find only years cited so an estimate based on prior immigration and I'll go high 690,00

1950-1,203,000 +594,775 from 1946 and + 513,000 from my 1948 estimate

all in all a bit more 100,00 you quoted
now was the land allocated sufficient? Perhaps, life in the Negev probably isn't so bad.

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/populationpalestine.html

[pelsar]

32. so continue....

your insinuation is that that the 2 million + jews and maybe 100,000 israeli arabs (just a guess)...couldnt make a viable economic unit out of the land from the UN....is that what your saying? (my 100,000 was just referring to a number i remembered from the refugees from europe)

the Tel Aviv metropolitan area (gush dan) has a population of over 3 million people....look up time in google 30 seconds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Dan
_____

next......lets think..what other angles...we covered the political aspect of letting jews from arab countries get bombed, we now did the "the zionists understood that the UN partitan plan was too small, so they grabbed some more land....we havent covered the water thing in the westbank (did it a few years ago...) so before you start you might want to check out the acquifer under the westbank and how it actually extends under pre 67 israel as well.

you havent really touched the "black panthers" of the 60- and 70's or much with the ethiopians today.....those are good ones to show how bad israel is.....avoiding army service is another one to look at: you can show how its discriminatory, not forcing the religious and the minorities to join up...or letting those white ashkenazis get off so easy when they dont want to be join either...

the work unions are good ones...the electrical company is almost a "family affair" with a very high percentage of the employees being relatives...plus they get free electricity.and though i havent checked it out, i would bet most are "ashkanzi."

failed kibbutim got preferential treatment with loans...oh, plus many of them are now building homes on agricultural land to rent out to the middle class, of which many are ashkanizi...so thats a good one to pick up on.

I'll try to think of some more for you.......

[azurnoir]

45. Lets stick to 1947 &1948

My question was- did the UN partition plan provide enough land to support the Jewish* population of what was to be Israel?

Yes, for the population living in Palestine at that time and NO, not for the easily predictable refugee influx.

I do realize I am "questioning" the absolute grail of Israel's rightness in it's treatment of Palestinians today, I have seen the comment that Israel abided by the law the Arabs did not-end of story move along do not look further.

Was the Arab attack on Israel hours after partition a surprise? Was the Haganah (soon to be IDF) and possibly Irgrun not ready for this?

The UN plan gave Israel 3 areas connected by tiny corridors, hardly defensible as a single unit, easily cut off from one another.

I am not questioning that the Arabs shot first, I am questioning the circumstances and near "myths" surrounding that attack.

BTW I looked up Gush Dan the area not including the most outer ring would have barely fit in to the partition.

[pelsar]

46. your question is....

would the partitian plan that the UN gave israel be large enough for the population....given that the gush dan area which DOES fit within, has over 3million..the answer is obviously yes...the influx did not reach 3 million

what is the relevancy of the quesion:
Was the Arab attack on Israel hours after partition a surprise? Was the Haganah (soon to be IDF) and possibly Irgrun not ready for this
of course the hagana was ready...the arabs made no secret of their plans.....

if your asking did the israeli state take advantage of the arab attacks to make for a better defensive positions...the answer is yes.

[azurnoir]

47. How is the answer yes?

The answer is unknown, you can make suppositions such as without the additional land would a population center with 3 million people even exist, could the country support it and if so how well?
However where I was going when I originally posted was not only my question but that what is now called the war of liberation was inevitable.

[pelsar]

48. why was it inevitable?

for that to be you have to assume that either the jews did not really accept the UN partition and accepted it only as a stepping stone...just waiting for the chance to enlarge israel...or that it was inevitable that the arabs would not accept the jews living there and try to eliminate the state.

for the second we have proof...and for the first only a belief.

______

obviously you simply believe the second, but its no more than a belief, which does explain much of your posts.... attempts to prove what cannot be proven

[azurnoir]

51. Yes it is one thing to know and

and another to show.
I believe both are true however, as for proof yes indeed there is proof that the Arabs attacked first, however do you deny that Israels leaders at the time did not realize just how important that fact would be in the future? Ben_Gurion was certainly no fool, he took what the UN offered knowing that world sympathy was on his (Israels) side as it had never been and quite possibly never would be again and that history was written by the victors.
The almost unarmed, bedraggled, unorganized group that is presented as being Israels defense is a farce, The Haganah was well armed, well trained albeit by the British, very organized force, already an army.

[pelsar]

52. please do better research!!!!! again!

the JORDANIAN army was trained and Led by the British.... had better equipment as did the Egyptians and Syrians and Iraqis......

it was the Hagana that had no equiment, and army based on many who didnt even speak the same languages, older men, women and kids... had different types of equipment with ammunition that didnt always fit.

(the israeli army was helped by a single ex british officer called wingate)
___

keep your beliefs but at least get your fact straight!!!!

and yes BenGurion was no fool...hence israel is what it is today, a strong viable democracy...the surrounding states/societies speak for themselves

[azurnoir]

53. Again some research or proof

The Haganah started out in the early 20th as you describe but 40 years later it had changed a bit, enough so that it's "underground" wing the Palmach ran covert operations in the Balkans during WW2. As to my British reference I meant that some of the Haganah's leaders were ex-British military, certainly not that the Brits fought along side them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmach

[pelsar]

54. google 30 seconds: hagana and arms

The almost unarmed, bedraggled, unorganized group that is presented as being Israels defense is a farce, The Haganah was well armed, well trained albeit by the British, very organized force, already an army

organized yes....thats why they prevaled .....intelligent use of limited resources and high motivation to prevent holocaust II

oh... obviously the arab govt disagreed with you...they figured they would win.....

___________

Though revisionist historians have claimed that the Jews had military superiority over the Arabs, it was not in evidence. The Haganah had primitive arms and few soldiers. Perhaps 20,000 combat troops could be found in April 1948, and these were lacking artillery, and in some cases were without rifles. The defeat of the Jewish Yishuv (settlement community in Palestine) seemed inevitable to many, and prompted US support for a trusteeship plan that would postpone implementation of independence for Israel and Palestine.

From the Jewish point of view, the situation became quite desperate, as attested by the intelligence report below, prepared in March 1948. To meet the problem, the Haganah had already prepared Plan D, which was to remove the Arab irregulars that had taken over villages in the Jerusalem corridor. However, that too offered only a temporary respite from the siege. When the Jordan Legion attacked Jerusalem in May, the road was blocked at Latrun. The Israelis failed to dislodge the British trained and equipped Jordan Legion from Latrun in three costly attacks. Jerusalem was saved from starvation by a strict rationing plan and by a by-pass road built around the Latrun fortifications. The Etzion block was lost following a massacre of 50 surrendered defenders, and Ataroth and Neve Ya'akov were abandoned. These territories were annexed to Jordan, and the annexation, acquisition of territory by force, was approved by the UN through silence. The "Jerusalem Corridor" originally allocated to Palestinians, became part of Israel, and tens of thousands of refugees fled and were expelled from Lod, Ramla and other towns. Jerusalem itself was divided between Israel and Jordan.



http://www.mideastweb.org/jeruint.htm
_____

[azurnoir]

56. I never claimed that the Hagganah had supriority

I claimed that their inferiority is exaggerated, I also claimed that the "grail" needs a closer look.

[Vegasaurus]

57. You're the best back tracker around these parts

and you have some great company, so consider that a compliment!:)

[azurnoir]

59. I am not backtracking

I said the inferiority of the Haganah/Palmach was exaggerated, and while the Jordanians and Egyptians may well have been superior, in numbers and arms, the Palestinians were a rather rag-tag bunch albeit there were more of them.
All of this leads to yet another question who shot first? Meaning which Arabs in particular shot first?

[pelsar]

58. whats the difference?

lets say the IDF/hagana had superiority in arms, training and personal....and everyone knew this....and the arabs still attacked because ....of whatever. What does that make them?

[Violet_Crumble]

39. self-deleted

[kayecy]

16. Not easy when you are occupied ........

Not easy when you are occupied by two supposedly friendly states (plus Israel) but which have armies
glowereing at each-other and nothing but an Armistice to stop the fighting.

Anyway. it is not really for us to say, it is what the Palestinians thought that matters. As I say have you any references showing what they thought?

[Tom Joad]

18. Looks like Gaza kids are really getting more help so they can stick to their diets!

I am sure the Israeli government planners are laughing themselves to sleep.
Israel must have thought there were too much food being sent in.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9785
The "Hamas team" had not laughed so much in a long time. The team, headed by the prime minister's advisor Dov Weissglas and including the Israel Defense Forces chief of staff, the director of the Shin Bet and senior generals and officials, convened for a discussion with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on ways to respond to the Hamas election victory. Everyone agreed on the need to impose an economic siege on the Palestinian Authority, and Weissglas, as usual, provided the punch line: "It's like an appointment with a dietician. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die," the advisor joked, and the participants reportedly rolled with laughter. And, indeed, why not break into laughter and relax when hearing such a successful joke? If Weissglas tells the joke to his friend Condoleezza Rice, she would surely laugh too.

But Weissglas' wisecrack was in particularly poor taste. Like the thunder of laughter it elicited, it again revealed the extent to which Israel's intoxication with power drives it crazy and completely distorts its morality. With a single joke, the successful attorney and hedonist from Lilenblum Street, Tel Aviv demonstrated the chilling heartlessness that has spread throughout the top echelon of Israel's society and politics. While masses of Palestinians are living in inhumane conditions, with horrifying levels of unemployment and poverty that are unknown in Israel, humiliated and incarcerated under our responsibility and culpability, the top military and political brass share a hearty laugh a moment before deciding to impose an economic siege that will be even more brutal than the one until now.
_____________________________

20-30% of Gaza children are malnourished. It seems that for Israel, that number is just too low.

[Vegasaurus]

19. Zmag is a rag and this article is a year old

with no proof or validity to the statements.

Yet we can count on Tom to trot it out at every available opportunity. He is nothing if not predictable!

[azurnoir]

20. wrong spot

[Tom Joad]

21. Do you know who Gideon Levy is?

[Tom Joad]

23. Have you ever heard of Haaretz?

that is the original source of the news article.

[Tom Joad]

24. I wonder why my citing an article from such a prominent Jewish Israeli

that was originally written in a prominent Jewish Israeli paper would cause you to heap your scorn on me?
Is it because he is more liberal than you are?
Or are the motivations something else?

[oberliner]

25. Why link to ZMag then?

Why not just link to the actual article in Ha'aretz? It's right here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=684258

Why post a link to ZMag's reprinting of it instead of the original?

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Why shouldn't he?

I post articles from Zmag all the time and didn't realise there was a problem, and I'm a bit confused as to what yr problem is with it..

Anyone who'd bothered to click on the link in Tom's post would have noticed right up the top where the title is that it came from Ha'aretz, and clicking on the Ha'aretz link from there produces a 303 error. Now, if people haven't got the ability to work out from the link that the original article was from Ha'aretz, that's their problem, and I don't see why anyone should have to go googling away to save someone embarressment when they don't even bother clicking on the zmag link and instead launch into a bit of a tirade about zmag and attack Gideon Levy...

[Tom Joad]

29. gotta admit, Gideon Levy isn't Dan Pipes. with dan pipes, the answer to every problem is clear

the only debate for Dan Pipes is exactly kind of military hardware to use to solve a problem.
It would be "should we use helicopters or F-16's?"

[Tom Joad]

28. I see. you certainly know how to focus on the big problems in life

nearly 30% of Gaza's children malnourished and the issue you and vegas are focusing on is where Tom Joad gets his articles.

Nice set of priorities there.

[oberliner]

36. In response

Since you mentioned what a respected publication Ha'aretz was, I would think that it would be preferable to use that as the source of the Gideon Levy piece since that's where it was published initially.

I am not a fan of ZMag because they seem to regularly run articles that bash Democrats.

Obviously, the question of where posters at this site get their articles is much less significant than what is happening in Gaza.

I'd love to have a constructive dialogue about what is going on in Gaza. Do you think that if Israel opened all the crossings and lifted any restrictions on the movement of people and goods to and from the area that it would lead to an end to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and would lead to a cessation of rocket attacks on Sderot and elsewhere inside Israel?

If not, what steps do you think would lead to these results?

[Tom Joad]

37. Democrats in office regularly support wars that kill hundreds of thousands of

people. hell, it wasn't that long ago that the Dems, began the genocide in Southeast Asia.

I have priorities beyond political parties.

[oberliner]

38. Any thoughts on the question about Gaza?

I understand and respect that there are a wide range of opinions about the Dems on this site.

Do you have any response to the question about Gaza?

[Tom Joad]

43. I think using innocent people as hostages is a war crime.

Clearly Israel is using the people of Gaza as political pawns. It must stop.
I'm going to call my congressional representative.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Zmag, Ha'aretz and Gaza...

Since you mentioned what a respected publication Ha'aretz was, I would think that it would be preferable to use that as the source of the Gideon Levy piece since that's where it was published initially.

I really think you've been trying to make something out of nothing here, Oberliner. I admire Ha'aretz and it's one of the few online newspapers that I've bothered bookmarking and reading every day (the others are The Age and The Guardian), but there's been plenty of times in this forum in the past where articles are posted and because they're not recent are from other sources rather than the original, so I'm not getting what the problem is now. I mean, what's so difficult about spotting the rather prominent bit at zmag where it said it was from Ha'aretz? Coz it involves clicking on the link to zmag in the first place? I couldn't care less if you don't like zmag. Yr not liking it is not a reason to tell other people what you think is and isn't preferable when it comes to linking to articles...

I'd love to have a constructive dialogue about what is going on in Gaza. Do you think that if Israel opened all the crossings and lifted any restrictions on the movement of people and goods to and from the area that it would lead to an end to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and would lead to a cessation of rocket attacks on Sderot and elsewhere inside Israel?

I have no idea whether it would or not, but it's pretty clear that Israel's current tactics aren't stopping the rockets, and achieving not much else but bringing even more misery on the population of Gaza. Wouldn't you agree?

I have a question about something. When you talked about lifting any restrictions on the movement of people and goods are you talking about no security at all?

If not, what steps do you think would lead to these results?

I'd be interested in hearing what yr answers would be to those questions.

[oberliner]

44. Thanks for the thoughtful response

Here is my response to your comments:

Regarding ZMag/Haaretz:

I realize that my own personal opinion of ZMag is not really relevant, however, I have found it to be generally unfriendly (if not hostile) to the Democratic Party. I agree with you that it's not really a big deal one way or the other. I just asked why one would use ZMag as a citation, rather than Ha'aretz. Citing from a source that is potentially off-putting to Democrats may alienate those who would otherwise be more willing to give serious consideration to the ideas presented in the piece. You will note that another posted referred to ZMag in a disparaging way. This sort of response could have been averted if the original Ha'aretz link had been used instead.

Regarding Gaza:

I think that Hamas has the power to end the humanitarian crisis in Gaza if it so chose. They could immediately renounce violence, arrest those who have engaged in attacks against Israel, and change its rhetoric to one that promotes peaceful co-existence rather than armed resistance. The Hamas leadership could acknowledge that their action in June against Fatah was a mistake and work towards re-entering a governing coalition with Fatah. Previous agreements regarding the border between Gaza and Israel could then be re-enforced, with European monitors returning to their posts. In this new environment, Israelis and Palestinians could sit down together with President Clinton or Obama and work towards making the difficult compromises necessary to achieve the goal of two states living side by side at peace with one another. The Geneva Accords would be a good starting point (as would the Clinton parameters).

I agree with you that Israel's current actions are doing nothing to end the rocket attacks and are making conditions for Palestinians living in Gaza significantly worse. I think that Israel ought to have done more to demonstrate that the negotiations toward peace approach could actually yield positive results. They can still do this by getting serious about eliminating the illegal settlement outposts in the West Bank, unilaterally releasing Palestinian prisoners (who aren't responsible for killing Israelis), and ending this policy of targeted assassinations (which almost always seems to lead to the death of innocent bystanders). How the Israeli government can get Hamas to stop firing Qassams at Israel I do not know. Perhaps if Palestinians can be shown that Israel is interested in peace then they will be convinced to abandon the violent ideology that leads to rocket attacks.

[Tom Joad]

30. do u share vegas' apparent contempt for Gideon Levy?

that post never inspired a comment from you.

[Vegasaurus]

33. I have no contempt for Levy

though I do have contempt for those who try to paint the hapless Palestinian as poor victims, and that all the problems in the middle east would simply vanish in a wonderful bi-national state where everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vegasaurus]

35. delete

[Violet_Crumble]

40. Is this an example of 'cyber-racism'?

;)

[Tom Joad]

42. yeah, i love that idea. hilarious.

"racism" being applied to sources on the web. Man, that certainly stretches the meaning of the word.
so if i think flatearth.com is not a reliable source for science info or if i think KillThemALLandLETGod sortThemOUT.info is not a good source for progressive intelligent conversation, then it is called "racism" Hilarious. only here would you get things like that.

[pelsar]

50. tolerance...

its not one of your strong points....

[pelsar]

49. yep....

i personally find zmags articles factually wrong...and unlike ISM dont even find a "gem" of truth now and then.....but the articles are written clearly with a logic to them (usually the premise is wrong).....and i assume one day i'll find something thats not bigoted/biased within them.

[Englander]

55. Hey, everybody's at it.

(Not really.)

19. Locking per I/P Guidelines
Links to counterpunch.com not permitted in the Israel/Palestine Forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x190987

3. Locking per I/P Guidelines.
Not a recent article or op-ed. Also, please refrain from using counterpunch.com.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=190044

[azurnoir]

22. UN report Gaza 2007

one of the stats that struck me were stats concerning childhood anemia which is very high. Guess those Hamas Queens are out spending their money on Cadilla..... oops Kassams

http://domino.un.org/pdfs/UNICEF_RptSept2007.pdf*

pdf format not sure it works