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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 01:11 PM
Original message
Bush’s vision of a Palestinian state: Subservient to Israel and policed by the major powers
Bush’s vision of a Palestinian state: Subservient to Israel and policed by the major powers

By Jean Shaoul
12 January 2008

The international press has, for the most part, uncritically repeated the line that the first leg of President George W. Bush’s Middle East trip, with stops in Israel and the Palestinian territories, is aimed at helping to move the so-called “peace process” along and establish a Palestinian state by 2009.

Bush himself said in an Israeli television interview that, although he was not predicting a full peace accord before he left office, “There will be an agreement on what a state would look like, in my judgement.” He continued: “I am not going to force the issue because of my own time-table, but I do believe that Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas do want to get this done.”

The Palestinian state of which Bush speaks, should such a thing ever come into being, is one that could be imposed on the Palestinians only through a military and political offensive involving the United States, Israel, the European powers and the Arab bourgeois regimes, particularly Egypt. The role of Abbas and the Palestinian Authority (PA) is to act as their local agent in transforming the occupied territories into a Western protectorate.

The Annapolis conference in November was supposed to be the start of the peace process with PA President Abbas, the leader of Fatah.

But Olmert’s first condition for any negotiations is that Abbas rein in armed groups, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which fire rockets and mortars into Israel from Gaza. He has repeatedly warned that he will not implement any treaty until the Palestinians have done so, a clear message that Abbas must wage all-out civil war against opposition to Israel. If Abbas can’t or won’t do it, then Israel will.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jan2008/isra-j12.shtml
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Never gonna happen...
“There will be an agreement on what a state would look like, in my judgement.”

F**k yer judgement, HotRod.

With a Judgement Batting Average like yours...
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Nothing will happen in the next year
Too many rockets...too much settlement activity...not enough political capital on the part of the leaders, any of them.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I hate to be a party pooper...
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 02:25 AM by Violet_Crumble
..but I can't see anything much happening not just within the next year, but within the next decade or so*. Both Israel and the Palestinians need strong and visionary leaders to bring about a lasting peace and I just can't see that happening anytime in the next few years. I studied the Israel/Palestine conflict at uni back in the days when Arafat and Sharon were alive or had a functioning brain respectively and people used to say they were waiting for those two to leave the stage and then things would improve. In many ways things have gotten even worse since then, imo, because it turned out there were worse things than the Yassir and Ariel show...

*I'd be very happy to be proved wrong on that and will gladly eat crow if someone pops up in a year or two when there is a lasting peace to shove this post down my throat...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
4. If Abbas can't or won't
rein in attacks against Israel, what's the point of Israel negotiating with him?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. All Israel has to do is get the FUCK OUT of all lands taken in 1967
The rest is just bullshit from Israel's leaders and their puppets in America.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yeah, right
That argument worked so well for Lebanon, didn't it?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Shebaa Farms
Edited on Mon Jan-14-08 02:13 AM by azurnoir
Oh thats right they are in Syria I "forgot"
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. So did the UN, apparently,
Considering their position until less than a year ago:

After consultations throughout the weekend, the Security Council this afternoon endorsed the work done by the United Nations as mandated by the Security Council, including the Secretary-General’s conclusion that, as of 16 June, Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with Security Council resolution 425 (1978).


Security Council press release

Timur Goksel, a spokesman for the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), told the BBC that the area amounted to little more than 10 square kilometres.

He said no-one disputed that the village of Shebaa itself was in Lebanon, but most of the farms fell into an undefined area that may be either in Lebanon or Syria.

The UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan wrote in a report to the Security Council this week that the border was vague.

"There seems to be no official record of an international boundary agreement between Lebanon and Syria that could easily establish the line for purposes of confirming the withdrawal," he said


Syria agrees with Lebanon that the Shebaa farms area is part of Lebanon.

However, Israel points out that it seized the territory from Syria, during the 1967 Middle East War.

Mr Goksel said: "The UN is saying that on all maps the UN has been able to find, the farms are seen on the Syrian side."


BBC
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. And there were no threats to Israel before 1967?
Edited on Mon Jan-14-08 09:38 AM by LeftishBrit
I strongly believe they SHOULD end the occupation, just like I strongly believe that the Palestinian Authority SHOULD recognize Israel and do something about the rockets, etc. None of this is likely to happen without negotiations. But it's not all on one side. There are two sides involved in this.

And if you think that Israel's leaders are, or ever have been, controlling 'puppets in America' - quite honestly, if you even think that they're really controlling ISRAEL at the moment; this being a very weak and divided government - then you're being fed bullshit!
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Does that include the parts
that Jordan ethnically cleansed?
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. That'll make peace for sure!
Gaza is great proof of what happens with disengagement!

More :sarcasm:
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Says who?
Isn't that the sort of thing that usually gets negotiated before being implemented? You seem a bit hazy on how this works so I'll give you a refresher...

The Palestinians have not won any of the altercations (full scale wars or otherwise) they've initiated against Israel. Thus, they are now in a poor bargaining position. Nations who start and then lose wars generally do not get to dictate the terms of any peace treaties following said wars. So, if the Palestinians want Israel to give the entire west bank and gaza to them, including east jerusalem and Hebron (which include some of Judaism, Christianity and Islam's holiest sites), they have to offer Israel something it wants in return. Specifically something that Israel wants more than the OPT. Otherwise there is no reason for Israel to give them this land... no one would ever do that.

See, they have to offer something in return. Get it?
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. People forget how conflicts are resolved
the person in the weaker position doesn't get to call all the shots, and certainly doesn't get the position of no compromise.

So, what are the Palestinians willing to give up, if not their resistance, their "right of return", or many of their claim to all of "historic Palestine"? Since the only thing they can control is how much resistance they wll offer up, it seems that they are digging in for eternal conflict.

Compromise...both sides. So far, the Palestinians have not offered a single point of compromise. Not a single one.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. The standard argument is that
the Palestinians are willing to give up their claim to all of Israel, (historic Palestine), and are willing to acknowledge Israel's existence. That a willingness to limit their state to a small percentage of what it "should" have been, and even a percentage of what the UN offered in their partition plan, is a huge concession that they're making before even starting negotiations.

But again, I think this argument tends to overlook what we're discussing. That the Palestinians don't have this land to offer as a concession. Israel is hardly likely to see its own country's land as a meaningful concession. Especially since it doesn't look likely that the Palestinians would be taking it back should Israel not agree to the deal.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. But considering that Hamas and the rest of the militant groups
have no desire to give up a square inch of "historic Palestine", and make this contention very well known, and because they have claimed there will be no negotiation with Israel (because the "zionist entity" will be retaken by Palestinians) there really is compromise at all. Wonder why the Israelis have distrust of the Gaza "leadership".

And then Abbas is seen as a US puppet, because he actually is attempting to talk about some kind of agreement.

As long as these are the positions, this simmering conflict will go on until there is a major regional conflagration.


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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. I'm sorry, but that is simply not true at all...
Edited on Tue Jan-15-08 09:24 AM by Douglas Carpenter
During the entire Camp David II talks and at Taba. Every single concession was made by the Palestinians. Israel did not offer even one single concession.

Now if one defines everything Israel wants even if it is not entitled to it. Then I suppose Israel offered concessions.

But if ones' frame of reference is "what is Israel entitled to under international law"? All concession were offered by the Palestinians. And Israel offered exactly ZERO concessions.

Here is a one and a half-hour debate between Professor Norman Finkelstein and Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo-Ben-Ami - who was lead negotiator for Israel at Camp David and Taba. This was originally carried on Democracy Now in February 2007:

left click to listen online or right click and press "save target as" to download:

http://www.archive.org/download/dn-finkelstein-benami/dn-finkelstein-benami_64kb.mp3

.

The offers put forward By Prime Minister Barak where framed as "take it our leave it offer"

Debunking a Middle East myth: Yasser Arafat wasn't solely to blame for the collapse of Camp David II -- link:

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/48512

"The Camp David offer that was put on the table as the most Israel would give provided for a continued Israeli presence in the Jordan Valley, a lopsided land swap that left the major settlement blocs intact and cutting deep into the West Bank, virtually no accommodation on refugees and Israeli sovereignty in almost all of East Jerusalem. Although both Clinton and the Israeli negotiators would dramatically improve this offer, it was presented to Arafat as a final, take-it-or-leave-it offer.

So Arafat chose to "leave it." Subsequent events made it clear that Israel could have gone farther. The fact that Arafat didn't respond with any kind of counter-offer was a grave error on his part, and opened the door to Clinton and Barak going back on their word not to blame the failure on him. But in truth, the summit failed because of missteps by all the parties. No one comes out of an honest assessment of Camp David looking good.

But since then, this has been distorted into Arafat leaving Camp David and starting the second intifada. As if Ariel Sharon's deliberate provocation of going to the Temple Mount with an enormous entourage of armed police and soldiers had nothing to do with it. As if the Israeli soldiers' lethal response to stone-throwers the following day had nothing to do with it. On the other side, the myth that Arafat was trapped by the Israelis and Americans and was simply their helpless victim ignores Arafat's own role in creating false expectations. It ignores the years of weapons smuggling into the Occupied Territories in anticipation of a more violent uprising than the first intifada. And it ignores the widespread Palestinian disappointment and disillusionment in the Arafat-led PA and its corruption, cronyism and human rights abuses which worsened the already terrible Palestinian economic plight and helped to make the Territories a powder keg of rage and hopelessness.

Camp David has taught all the wrong lessons. What should have been learned from it was that the Israeli, Palestinian and American leadership have all failed to make a just peace possible. Until leaders weigh both sides equally, recognize that justice must be done for all, understand the political climates of both sides and deal with these difficult matters in a more realistic fashion, such failure will only be repeated.
____________

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations By Seth Ackerman
-- link: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

"The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new “independent state” would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called “bypass roads” that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel"

snip:"In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02)."
____________

It does appear however that progress was made a Taba, Egypt in January 2001. However, Israel unilateral broke off the talks on the Eve of their upcoming election.

link to the European Union notes which have been confirmed by the Israeli and Palestinian delegation and being an accurate record of what happened at Taba in January 2001:

http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/moratinos.html

"This document, whose main points have been approved by the Taba negotiators as an accurate description of the discussions, casts additional doubts on the prevailing assumption that Ehud Barak "exposed Yasser Arafat's true face." It is true that on most of the issues discussed during that wintry week of negotiations, sizable gaps remain. Yet almost every line is redolent of the effort to find a compromise that would be acceptable to both sides. It is hard to escape the thought that if the negotiations at Camp David six months earlier had been conducted with equal seriousness, the intifada might never have erupted. And perhaps, if Barak had not waited until the final weeks before the election, and had instead sent his senior representatives to that southern hotel earlier, the violence might never have broken out."
link to European Union Notes.

link: http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/moratinos.html

---

At the time of the talks Ariel Sharon was at least 16 point ahead in all leading Israeli opinion polls to become the new Israeli Prime Minister. And the election was only days away. However, Mr. Sharon made it absolutely clear that he would not honor any such treaty witht he Palestinians:

Sharon calls peace talks a campaign ploy by Barak
Likud leader says he won't comply with latest agreements
January 28, 2001
Web posted at: 1:42 p.m. EST (1842 GMT)

"Sharon leads Barak by 16 to 20 percentage points in opinion polls that have changed little in recent weeks." links:

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/28/mideast.01/index.html

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/27/mideast.01/index.html

.

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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I ask again
In the current political climate, today in Jan of 2008 (not pre-Intifadas, when the climate was different)

What compromises are the Palestinians willing to make? Are they willing to give up "right of return", when Hamas still talks about retaking all of "greater Palestine"?

Some people claim that Abbas does not speak for the Gazans and therefore cannot be a broker for peace. But Hamas and Gaza have spoken, and they are clear that there IS no compromise. None.

Do you not believe Hamas's statements, Douglas, and I ask that with all due respect?

(For the record, I think the expanding settlements and land grab make Israel very untrustworthy too)
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. As always, give us everything and stop resisting us
and we might think about talking to you.

Same song, different decade.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. I realize you are sarcastically mimicking Israel's stance.
But it sounds to me like you could just as easily be quoting a serious demand from Hamas. (Or the PLO a few years back.)

After all, PM, Israel has still never demanded "everything," unlike the spokesmen for the other team.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Israel has demanded the major concession, ie "recognition"
which is really all palestine has to give, up front, all along.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. all palestine has to give?
uhm, it is hardly the only thing that Palestine is negotiating over. Israel is not demanding east jerusalem, the west bank, no right of return, etc etc., up front. Just recognition, which is far from an unreasonable request, especially considering that (as you said) the Palestinians don't really have anything at this point to negotiate with... they are negotiating with stuff that is currently in the other side's possession.

Most vanquished nations must sign an unconditional surrender, then have the terms dictated to them later on. Hamas is trying to dictate their own unconditional terms, to be followed by the POSSIBILITY of peace talks, not even the certainty of them. Israel has always assured peace talks should the PLO recognize them. And once it did, they did.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-15-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. After reading your other post...
I don't see much point in discussing this with you, given your honest views.

Have a nice day!
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