A very political problem

[Ian David]

By Rabbi Shea Hecht April 17, 2007

<snip>

In February of 2007, Israeli authorities charged that members of the Palestinian Authority (PA) were digging up sewage pipes in the Gaza area so that the pipes can be used for Kassam rockets.

The charges were made after the PA accused Israel of causing sewage to be spilled on Gaza's main north-south highway by not allowing needed pipes to move through border crossings.

And then, in March of 2007 the pipes in the Bedouin village, Umm Naser, exploded. The city was flooded when the wall of a large cesspool sewage pool collapsed. The sewage ran and people died. Palestinians reported deaths, injuries and that 70 percent of the houses were completely submerged in the sewage following the collapse.

And when PA violence doesn't allow help to get through to the needy PA, who gets blamed? Of course, Israel.

More:
http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/11182.htm

[azurnoir]

1. So the Pals are

digging up their sewer systems to make bombs to use against Israel? That is what we are being left to assume right? Or did they possibly steal part of a shipment of pipes and are maybe using them for Kassams there by giving Israel the right never to repair their sewers again no matter what, and giving the Pals on idea of their fate if they should insist on continuing to "squat" on land that is not theirs? Oh yes isn't sewer pipe usually ceramic or plastic and rather large for rocket use?
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/palis-use-donated-sewage-pipes-for-kassam-rockets

[Tom Joad]

2. Thanks for the perspective of one of Israel's most rightwing websites.

We'll keep it mind.
The writer has opposed given up Any land taken in the '67 war, calling the Sinai.

I don't think this is credible at all.

[Tom Joad]

3. Also from "Israeli Insider"....MK Eldad: "Two-state solution is bankrupt, ...

only state for Palestinians is Jordan. "
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/11130.htm

It also has a very critical essay of Pelosi's trip to Damascus, regurgitating the Cheney/Bush talking points.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/11089.htm

[Douglas Carpenter]

4. yes and check Rabbi Shea Hecht's other articles...he is an extremist by any standards

well to the right of Sharon

[Tom Joad]

5. His keyboard is a sewage leak. No credibility here.

[Igel]

6. Does it matter?

All men are mortal.
Lassie is a man. (Yes, the dog-character from the TV show.)
Therefore Lassie is mortal.

Is this a true syllogism?

[Ian David]

12. Ian goes a-googling ... Here we go...

Jerusalem Post

Israeli metal used for Kassam rockets
By YAAKOV KATZ

It took seven years, but the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) has finally put a stop to one of the more ironic aspects on Israel's war on terror: Kassam rockets made of Israeli metal.

A Palestinian from the Gaza Strip who worked as a metal merchant at the Karni crossing between Israel and the Strip was arrested by the Shin Bet last month for allegedly selling pipes he bought in Israel to terrorist groups that used them to manufacture Kassams, it was released for publication on Sunday.

On February 9, the Shin Bet arrested Amar Azk, 37. During his interrogation, he confessed selling the pipes to Hamas and other terrorist organizations that manufactured Kassam rockets, fired almost daily at Israel. The Shin Bet said Azk's activities began with the start of the second intifada in 2000 and were only brought to a halt by his arrest. The agency could not say how much metal Azk traded, except that it was "significant."

The pipes that were sold to Zak were intended for the construction of a sewage system in Gaza.
The Shin Bet has been unable to determine the amount of metal that actually made its way to the terror organizations, and how much went to the sewage project.

More:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1171894568749&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull


See also:


Gaza Terrorists Used Sewer Pipes to Make Kassam Rockets

<snip>

The first, from Israel National News on Feb. 26, 2007, reported, "Israeli authorities have charged that the Palestinian Authority (PA) is digging up sewage pipes in the Gaza area so that the pipes can be used for Kassam rockets. The charges were made after the PA accused Israel of causing sewage to be spilled on Gaza's main north-south highway by not allowing needed pipes to move through border crossings."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/122250


The second, from the Jerusalem Post of March 4, 2007, reported the arrest by Shin Bet, the Israeli security agency, of a Palestinian who was buying pipe in Israel for resale to Hamas and other terrorist organizations, for the manufacture of Kassam rockets. The article stated, "The pipes that were sold to were intended for the construction of a sewage system in Gaza. The Shin Bet has been unable to determine the amount of metal that actually made its way to the terror organizations, and how much went to the sewage project."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1171894568749&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

More:
http://hedgehogcentral.blogspot.com/2007/03/gaza-terrorists-used-sewer-pipes-to.html





Also:



Israel Says PA Using Gaza Sewage Pipes for Kassams
(IsraelNN.com) "Israeli authorities have charged that the Palestinian Authority (PA) is digging up sewage pipes in the Gaza area so that the pipes can be used for Kassam rockets.
The charges were made after the PA accused Israel of causing sewage to be spilled on Gaza's main north-south highway by not allowing needed pipes to move through border crossings."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/122250

"There have been numerous reports about horrible conditions in Gaza due to the raw sewage flowing openly in the streets and being dumped into the sea because of the absence of the sewage system. And of course it was blamed on... yep, Israel. But you'll never guess where the metal pipes intended for the construction of a sewage system in Gaza have been going. They have been used for manufacturing Kassam rockets." --more
http://eye-on-the-world.blogspot.com/2007/03/now-we-know-why-gaza-doesnt-have-sewage.html

[oberliner]

7. Delighted to see you condemn a site that is opposed to the two-state solution

Certainly we should avoid promoting individuals who hold such a position or the web sites in which those opinions are found.

[Tom Joad]

8. I do oppose ethnic cleansing of any group...

Palestinian or Jewish.
i wish it were a consensus here, but it is not.

A democratic one-state solution that gives rights to all people might be the best solution.

[The Magistrate]

11. That Formulation, Mr. Joad

Is mere code for the destruction of the state of Israel, as you are doubtless, given your long involvement in debate on this matter, fully aware.

[Tom Joad]

13. I am not "coding" anything, i want a democratic peaceful future for

all the inhabitants of Palestine/Israel.

As a long reader of my posts, you must be fully aware of that.

[The Magistrate]

14. If You Say So, Sir

The so-called "one state solution" remains known to all as a code for the destruction of the state of Israel. Its saving grace, of course, is that there is absolutely no possibility of it ever being put into being: that would require the complete overthrow of Israeli military power in battle, and that is not going to occur.

[Tom Joad]

15. What part of democratic coexistence do people find so troubling?

[pelsar]

17. nothing in principle...

but in case you missed it: the palestinians just voted in a fanatical extremist religious party......quite the opposite of the "democratic values" that such a state would require.

i can also point out to their society in gaza..a complex puzzle of clans local and national loyalties whos version of "justice" doesnt quite fit the western view of democracy.
------
your "dream" doesnt contain any kind of "undo"....as in khomenis take over of iran......the talibans of afganistan. Unless of course you see such things as the "lesser of the evils of two states" (one liberal and democratic, the other?)

[The Magistrate]

19. And Can Dorothy Return To Kansas, Sir, If It Is Said Three Times While Twirling?

There is nothing magic in the words you wave about, nor anything too effective in your usual marshalling of platitudes.

The citizens of Israel live in a democracy. The Arab Palestinians, for that matter, recently voted in the nearest thing to a government authority they have yet known. In short, just about everyone involved already lives under democracy, and there is nothing to be gained on that line available.

Peaceful coexistence will come when the war between the peoples is concluded, either on terms acceptable to both, or imposed by one upon the helpless other.

[breakaleg]

16. If that's the case, then it's in Israel's best interests that they allow a settlement

that gives Palestinians a decent, viable state of their own. Yet they don't want that. They want the absolute minimum. Little ghettos enclosed by the IDF and control of roads and a host of other things.

[The Magistrate]

18. We Would Seem To Be In Agreement Here, Ma'am

Neither people involved in this conflict is well served by its leadership.

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. I really do think Sir, that's an excessively paranoid interpretation of the concept

I don't know any bi-nationalist who are whispering under their breaths, "yes, yes, this is our chance to destroy Israel".

The idea was actually invented by certain early Zionist such as Martin Buber. Although it was a relatively small tendency of early Zionism.

There are formulas put forward by left-wing elements of the Palestinian movement and what some might say "far" left within Israel who imagine for instance a federated and again I repeat federated -- bi-national solution -- one might describe the idea as "two-nations-one country".

I would have to agree that the concept sounds utterly utopian right at the moment and will continue to sound utopian for awhile to come.

Personally I have believed in the two-state solution since the early 80's. If you remember in those days the concept of two-states was only gaining traction in the Palestinian movement and was solidly rejected in Israeli society by all except again, the far left.

Even in the mid-late 80's it was the two-state solution that was described across the political spectrum of Israeli politic as a "plot to destroy Israel". It was staunchly opposed by all Israeli political parties except the Communist.

What has made me personally question the two-state solution is that the option may no longer remain a viable possibility. In order for Israel to accept a genuinely viable, sovereign and independent Palestinian state even roughly based on the pre-1967 border, Israel would have to remove a minimum of between one hundred and two hundred thousand settlers from the West Bank and East Jerusalem and undo a great deal of permanent infrastructure. I doubt very much if Israeli body politic will allow that possibility even if they wanted to. A point of no return is rapidly approaching.

.

[The Magistrate]

21. It Is An Accurate Assessment, Sir

The history of the idea is familiar to me, and quite irrelevant to the present usage.

In use at present, particularly in use among committed opponents of Israel, it is simply a formula for contriving by demographic means what military and paramilitary means have failed to achieve.

If a point of no return is fast approaching, that had better be pointed out to the militant rejectionists of Hamas and company, whose activities are securing that result you fear. Make no mistake, Sir, there is no guarantee, not even a likelihhod, of a good outcome for all to this. Peoples have been irrevocably defeated in the past, and doubtless will be in the future.

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. I would not assume nefarious intent Sir on the part of those making such a proposal

Nor would I assume the far great power (Israel) would accept a genuinely viable, sovereign and independent state based even approximately on the pre-67 border with East Jerusalem as its Capital and a compromised but reasonable resolution of the refugee problem even if all acts of violent Palestinian resistance stopped immediately. The position of the far greater power (Israel) and its American allie and strong ideological forces within the state creating a domestic body politic highly resistant to minimally acceptable concessions are likely to reduce the possibility of such an agreement. Although I would agree that there is nothing to be gained under the current circumstances by violent attacks against Israeli civilians by rejectionist factions of the Palestinian movement and can only make a very weak position even weaker.

It is certainly true that sometimes the weaker side is simply defeated and is eventually more or less forgotten. The Seminole Indians are not going to get Florida back. History is full of such examples.

However, geographic, demographic, historical and unshakable cultural and religious reasons will keep this issue simmering and will not be forgotten. The Jerusalem issue alone brings back memories of the crusades and how long it took for the Muslims to recover their loss.
_______

Back to the intent of those who consider a one-state proposal, a large number of surveys of Palestinian opinion reveal that those who prefer in general peace and reconciliation with the Israelis, prefer the one-state but would accept the two-state. Currently most Palestinians view the two two-state solution as much more possible. If a two-state situation ceases to be a likely possibility than there could be change in how it is viewed:

here is one survey:

- Among the various scenarios proposed for self-determination, 'one democratic state in historical Palestine for all its citizens without discrimination based on religion, race, ethnicity, color, or sex (to be determined by a constitution and upon international safeguards and guarantees)' is the preferred scenario among the respondents (68 percent). However, only 16 percent support such a scenario and believe that it is feasible; 52 percent support it regardless of its feasibility.

- Almost an equal percentage support a two-state solution scenario (65 percent) where one is Palestinian and the other is Israeli (in reference to the 1988 Declaration of Independence and 242 UN Resolution. Indeed, it is the most realistic solution from the point of view of its supporters. Fifty-four percent of supporters believe that a two-state solution is feasible while 11 percent support this potential solution regardless of its feasibility.

- Sixty-eight percent of the opinion leaders do not support a potential scenario to establish 'An Islamic State on all lands of historic Palestine (Jews and Christians to be treated as minorities of non-Muslim subjects enjoying the protection of Muslim state.' Likewise, sixty-two percent of respondents believe that such a solution is not feasible.

link to more polling details:

http://www.alternativenews.org/news/english/palestinian-poll-on-final-status-issues-borders-refugees-jerusalem-water-politics-democracy-20070304.html

.

[The Magistrate]

23. Nefarious Intent, Sir?

People have every right to prefer the destruction of the state of Israel as an outcome to this conflict. If they feel uncomfortable with the open statement, and prefer to cloak it in a proposal that amounts to such a destruction in all but name, that is a judgement on their own forthrightness, and they cannot expect they will not be called on it by people who understand and do not flinch from the actual import of the proposal.

Your comments on the possible Israeli reaction to a complete cessation of Arab Palestinian violence might prove to be the case; neither side has any particular reason at this point to expect the other side will behave well even if given the opportunity. But it is important to remember the actual relations of power between the two sides as matters stand now. There is no particular need on the part of Israel for a settlement on the lines we would both prefer. It remains in the power of Israel to impose conditions unilaterally on its Arab Palestinian opponent: the security barrier, for better or worse, is the mark of that. Continuation of the present situation may be uncomfortable for Israel, but it is a discomfort that can be supported indefinitely, and will be, unless some drastic change eventuates. Neither of these factors obtains for the people of Arab Palestine. They lack the power to impose any condition unilaterally on Isarel, save for ensuring it continues as a species of garrison state. Continuation of the present situation cannot be supported indefinitely by the people of Arab Palestine, but must inexorably result in the continued straitening of their condition, and their eventual dissolution as a political entity. It is far more incumbent on them, far more in their self interest, to accommodate Israel than it is in Israel's interest to accommodate them. It may be the case in personal relations that the stronger ought to give way in magnanamity, but that is not how it is done in relations between states, and not how the conflicts between warring peoples are resolved.

That there is support among Arab Palestinians for this 'one state' nostrum hardly alters the case that it is in fact a preference for the destruction of the state of Israel as presently constituted, and as the miltary power of the Israeli state and people is, and always will be, bent to preserve it. The idea that collapse of a two state solution will open the way for the 'one state' proposal is merest moonshine. If the two state solution irrevocably collapses, it will be because the two peoples have been utterly unable to find a way to co-exist without levels of violence at least one side is unwilling to accept. That hardly opens a door for an even closer relation, absolutely dependent on mutual trust; rather, it only opens the door to pressing the war between the peoples to the sort of conclusion one finds frequently in history, namely the complete ruin of the weaker party to the conflict.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. People have every right to not have their words twisted into something they don't think...

People have every right to prefer the destruction of the state of Israel as an outcome to this conflict. If they feel uncomfortable with the open statement, and prefer to cloak it in a proposal that amounts to such a destruction in all but name, that is a judgement on their own forthrightness, and they cannot expect they will not be called on it by people who understand and do not flinch from the actual import of the proposal.

That comment is of such a low calibre (the Magistrate I first met and greatly respected would never have come out with that sort of hyperbolic nonsense) that I was gobsmacked when I read it. I'm going to call you on it coz in all the time I've been in this forum, my head has supported a two-state solution, but my heart has supported one binational democratic state where all citizens are equal and the rights of all are protected. And the reason my heart supports a binational state has bugger all to do with some fantasy accusation of wanting the destruction of Israel - I don't support the destruction of any state - but has everything to do with a binational state being the fairest solution. But because most Palestinians and Israelis don't want a binational state, I support a two-state solution, even though for a fair while now I've seen a two-state solution being as unlikely to happen as a binational state. But it's not realistic to support a two state solution and not realise that even though it will take generations, eventually those two states will find they can't exist without the other, and some sort of federation between them will happen...

The idea that collapse of a two state solution will open the way for the 'one state' proposal is merest moonshine.

The collapse of a two state solution will most definately open the way for a one state solution, and there's no moonshine about it at all. It's the one state solution that (and I'm going to borrow a bit of the destruction hyperbole from yr post here) involves the destruction of Israel by the new and expanded Israel ceasing to be a democracy unless it carries out ethnic cleansing to ensure that it retains a Jewish majority...

[Ian David]

10. I agree. I didn't realize how far-right the source was.

I'll see if I can find corraboration on the story.

[Ian David]

9. Thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't familiar with the source. n/t