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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 05:54 AM
Original message
We are all Jews
http://info.jpost.com/C003/Supplements/FSB/030926/art.04.html

I sometimes get asked these days if I’m Jewish — it’s my neoconish views on defense and foreign affairs, I suppose. For a while I would just say, "No, Presbyterian,‘ but I’ve started saying instead, ’Well, I anchor the Presbyterian wing of JINSA (the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs)."

What with anti-Semitism growing in Europe and a hideous variety thereof metastasizing in the Middle East — not to speak of the American Left’s (and a small part of the Right’s) hostility to Israel, which sometimes veers off into anti-Semitism — it seems to me our Jewish friends could use a bit of solidarity these days. Today, the first day of Rosh Hashana, celebration of the Jewish New Year, is as good a time as any to explain why.

It’s not only the other two great Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam, that owe a substantial debt to Judaism, it’s the world as a whole. The reason is that between three and four millennia ago something happened in the Sinai among a tribe of refugees from Egyptian oppression that introduced the world to the concept of the rule of law — the idea that the law is not the whim of, but rather has its source above, those who rule.

This concept is at the heart of what makes decently-governed societies possible, whether you sign on to Jefferson’s formulation that we are "endowed by our Creator" with basic rights or prefer the more secular notion of natural law.

................................................................

interesting article

note to mods: please dont delete, thank you.

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salmonhorse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. I raised my daughters in The Torah...
It has always been my contention that we are indeed all of The Book ~
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Law and democracy
both have a foundation in Torah. The 10 Commandments should be posted in every court house.
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Which version?
Catholic, Protestant, or the 'original'?

(I'd go with the Catholic, since it weakened the rules about graven images)

And as for democracy being in the Torah, well...The translation I read didn't mention it. Seems there are a lot of mentions of democracy in Greek writings though, especially since democracy is a Greek word (from Demos, 'people', Cracy, 'rule')
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Can't we just run with a bust of Aristotle?
Us atheists kind of have a problem with the Ten Commandments being stuck up in courtrooms, schools, McDonalds, public toilets or wherever the Religious Reich want to stick them. And the foundations of law and democracy are all in Ancient Greece, so good old Aristotle being whacked up everywhere would make more sense....

Violet...
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Once again you are half right
My only quible (and mind you I like Aristotle) is Greece (for one thing it did not exist, only a group of city states) did not implement democracy. Only free male Athenians were allowed to vote. women were held in less regard in ancient Athens than in modern Saudi Arabia. But, the ideas of democracy were and are timeless.

As for that nuttsy judge, politness does not allow me to say what I really think of him and his ilk.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. take a complement graciously, it was meant that way
There was no ancient Greece, just city states. The ten commandments judge.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Okay...
ComplEment ever so graciously accepted...

Rini, I suspect you just may be wrong when you say there was no ancient Greece. Of course there was no central government and no-one would claim there was, but the collection of city-states were self-governing units, and Athens was the largest of them. Those city-states are what's referred to as ancient Greece. People back then didn't refer to themselves as *ancient Greece*, that's what it's known as now. Here's the first sentence from the chapter on the origins of democracy in a book called Political Ideologies and the Democratic Ideal:

'"Democracy" the word and democracy the form of political life both began in ancient Greece.'

Violet...
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. The city states of Ancient Greece
considered themselves allied against outsiders, in a loose confederation.
They called themselves 'Helennes', after their word for the Greek penninsuala, Helas. (NOT after Helen of Troy!)
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. More to the point,
"Ancient Greece" is a place and a culture, not a nation
state, so saying it is not a nation state implies nothing.
There was nothing like the modern nation state until about
500 years ago.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. LOL!
Seperation of Church and State. S-E-P-E-R-A-T-I-O-N O-F C-H-U-R-C-H A-N-D S-T-A-T-E, Gimel. Ever heard of it?

What about those who aren't Judeo-Christian? Perhaps we should have a statue of Mohhamed and Buddha in every courthouse?

Or maybe a plaque with nothing on it, to represent atheism.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. religious extremism knows no boundaries
Just like judge Moore, right? :crazy:
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. Bollocks...
Edited on Mon Sep-29-03 07:51 AM by Devils Advocate NZ
The reason is that between three and four millennia ago something happened in the Sinai among a tribe of refugees from Egyptian oppression that introduced the world to the concept of the rule of law — the idea that the law is not the whim of, but rather has its source above, those who rule.

Bollocks. The Code of Hammurabi predates the Torah by a few hundred years, and as it says at Wikipedia:

The code is often pointed to as the first example of the legal concept that some laws are so basic as to be beyond the ability of even a king to change. By writing the laws on stone they were immutable and incapable of being changed. This concept lives on in most modern legal systems and has given rise to the term "written in stone".
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

On edit: By the way, guess where these rules came from:

196. If a man put out the eye of another man, his eye shall be put out. < An eye for an eye >

197. If he break another man's bone, his bone shall be broken.


<SNIP>

200. If a man knock out the teeth of his equal, his teeth shall be knocked out. < A tooth for a tooth >
http://www.unesco.org/delegates/iraq/hamurabi.htm
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MojoKrunch Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. "My hairy ass..."
The funny thing about "eye for an eye" is that it was supposed to be a way to *end blood fued*, not elicit additional punishment.
IOW, if a neighbor shit on my lawn I wasn't allowed to break his arm.
If he killed my cow I wasn't allowed to kill his child.
But I was allowed to shit on his dead cow.
:D

Isn't Wikipedia the "reader created" encyclopedia?
I've always wondered who edited the entries for veracity.

Anyway, this is from Encyclopedia Britannica:


Hammurabi, Code of
the most complete and perfect extant collection of Babylonian laws, developed during the reign of Hammurabi (1792–1750 BC) of the 1st dynasty of Babylon. It consists of his legal decisions that were collected toward the end of his reign and inscribed on a diorite stela set up in Babylon's temple of Marduk, thenational god of Babylonia. These 282 case laws include economic provisions (prices, tariffs, trade, and commerce), family law (marriage and divorce), as well as criminal law (assault, theft) and civil law (slavery, debt). Penalties varied according to the status of the offenders and the circumstances of the offenses.

The background of the code is a body of Sumerian law under which civilized communities had lived for many centuries. The existing text is in the Akkadian (Semitic) language; but, even though no Sumerian version is known to survive, the code was meant to be applied to a wider realm than any single country and to integrate Semitic and Sumerian traditions and peoples. Moreover, despite a few primitive survivals relating to family solidarity, district responsibility, trial by ordeal, and the lex talionis (i.e., an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), the code was advanced far beyond tribal custom and recognized no blood feud, private retribution, or marriage by capture.

The principal (and only considerable) source of the Code of Hammurabi is the stela discovered at Susa in 1901 by the French Orientalist Jean-Vincent Scheil and now preserved in the Louvre.




Hebraic law
body of ancient Hebrew law codes found in various places in the Old Testament and similar to earlier law codes of ancient Middle Eastern monarchs—such as the Code of Hammurabi, an 18th–17th-century-BC Babylonian king, and the Code of Lipit-Ishtar, a 20th-century-BC king of the Mesopotamian city of Eshnunna. The codes of both Hammurabi and Lipit-Ishtar are described in their prologues as imparted by a deity so that the monarchs might establish justice in their lands. Such law codes thus had the authority of divine command.

The laws of the Hebrews were conceived in the same manner. Two types of law are noted in the Hebrew law codes: (1) casuistic, or case, law, which contains a conditional statement and a type of punishment to be meted out; and (2) apodictic law, i.e., regulations in the form of divine commands (e.g., the Ten Commandments). The following Hebraic law codes are incorporated in the Old Testament:(1) the Book of the Covenant, or the Covenant Code; (2) the Deuteronomic Code; and (3) the Priestly Code.

The Book of the Covenant, one of the oldest collections of law in the Old Testament, is found in Exodus 20:22–23:33. Similar to the Code of Hammurabi, the Covenant Code is divided into the following sections: (1) a prologue; (2) laws on the worship of Yahweh; (3) laws dealing with persons; (4) property laws; (5) laws concerned with the continuance of the Covenant; and (6) an epilogue, with warnings and promises. In both the Code of Hammurabi and the Covenant Code, the lex talionis (the law of retribution)—namely, the “eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” law—is found. The substitution of financial compensation or a fine for the literal punishment, however, was allowed.

The Deuteronomic Code, found in Deuteronomy, chapters 12–26, is a reinterpretation or revision of Israelite law, based on historical conditions as interpreted by the 7th-century-BC historians known as the Deuteronomists. Discovered in the Temple at Jerusalem in 621 BC, the Deuteronomic Code attempted to purify the worship of Yahweh from Canaanite and other influences. The greatest sin wasconsidered to be apostasy, the rejection of faith, the penalty for which was death. The Deuteronomic Code is divided into the following sections: (1) statutes and ordinances, especially related to dealings with the Canaanites and worship in the Temple in Jerusalem alone, to the exclusion of the high places (see high place); (2) laws (known as sabbatical laws) concerned with the year of release from obligations, especially financial; (3) regulations for leaders; (4) various civil, cultic, and ethical laws; and (5) an epilogue of blessings and curses.

The Priestly Code, containing a major section known as the Code of Holiness (in Leviticus, chapters 17–26), is found in various parts of Exodus, all of Leviticus, and most of Numbers. Emphasizing ceremonial, institutional, and ritualistic practices, the Priestly Code comes from the post-Exilic period (i.e., after 538 BC). Though most of the laws of the Code of Holiness probably come from the pre-Exilic period (pre-6th century BC), the laws reflect a reinterpretation encouraged by the Exile experiences in Babylon. Purity of worship of Yahweh is emphasized.


I've always loved how people who don't know their history make claims like that silly, idolatrous Alabama judge.

Mojo
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Flying_Pig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. To support Israel's current government, is to be a neocon...
It also means one supports PNAC, and their plans for ME domination and war. It also means, that if one supports PNAC, they also support their allies in groups like AIPAC, JINSA, and JDL, in addition to the fascist Sharon-Likud government.

It is one thing to support "Israel", and quite another to jettison all common decency and morality by supporting groups that are causing the deaths of tens of thousands, who are fomenting world wars, who support apartheid, and those who support fascist oligarchy in the U.S.
I am of Jewish heritage, but I DO NOT support those who would take my nation, or Israel, down the fascist path.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. well said, FP....
eom
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
9. What do you mean
Edited on Mon Sep-29-03 11:24 AM by sushi
by "a bit of solidarity?" We should agree with whatever Sharon does, like ignoring UN resolutions?
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MariMayans Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
12. reminds me of "snatch"
Edited on Mon Sep-29-03 04:35 PM by MariMayans
Everybody knows Woolsey the Head. If it's real estate or oil and it's stolen, Woolsey's the neo-con to speak to. Pretends he's Jewish. Wishes he was Jewish. So he tells his family they're Jewish. But he's about as Jewish as he is a f*cking monkey
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. Religion is opium for the people
Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.

<snip>

Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen's religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfillment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men's consciences, and linking cosy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

Socialism and Religion (1905)
V.I. Lenin


http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Are you talking to IG or Lenin?
Lenin's dead, dude. I figure you couldn't have been addressing that comment to IG cause yr not the type of guy who'd focus on a poster rather than on their post....


Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
14. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Deleted message
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MojoKrunch Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. It's like butta, but it's not ko-sha.
Unless ya smear it all over yer nekkid body.

From yer neck o' the woodz.
http://kosherkiwidirectory.co.nz/

And more specifically:
http://kosherkiwidirectory.co.nz/mayonnaise.html

"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast"

Mojo
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-03 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Mojo!
Long time, no see! Check yr inbox cause I need to give you my new email addy...


*big hugs*


Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Deleted message
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