Hamas says group will never recognise Israel

[oberliner]

GAZA, Feb 9 (Reuters) - Hamas said on Friday it would never recognise Israel and will not, as a movement, abide by previously reached Palestinian peace accords with Israel as urged by President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah.

"We will never recognise Israel. There is nothing called Israel, neither in reality nor in the imagination," Nizar Rayyan, a senior Hamas leader in Gaza, told Reuters.

Rayyan welcomed the unity government agreement reached in Mecca but said that Hamas shunned Abbas's call for Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, who will form the new cabinet, to abide by previous peace accords.

"We, in the Hamas movement, will not abide by anything," he said.

The comments were endorsed by Hamas spokesman Ismail Rudwan, who said: "The recognition is not an option at all, is not discussable."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L091233422.htm

[skipos]

1. Dipshits. nt

[Cary]

2. Of course it's all Israel's own fault, and they have . . .

no right to defend themselves. :sarcasm:

[BayCityProgressive]

3. these people are complete morons too

they don't care about the Palestinians, only their own twisted ideology. Both sides need to come together to form ONE secualr state with freedom for jews, muslims, and christians written into the constitution. I won't hold my breath though.

[Cary]

5. When I say this, my posts get deleted.

I'm not exactly sure why. Perhaps it is inflammatory.

But I don't mean it to be a comment on ethnicity, per se. I mean it instead to be a comment on Democracy. You just can't have a functional Democracy without a certain concensus that simply doesn't exist outside of Israel.

You forget, too, that Israel is in fact the closest thing ever in the Middle East to a secular state with freedom for Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

It simply isn't fair or objective to proclaim that "these people are complete morons too." It's not like they have ever been given a viable option as to how to deal with the Palestinians. Arafat didn't give it to them. Abbas might, be he doesn't have the power.

And, well, you can see Israel's alternatives with respect to Hamas. Add Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and the rest of the Arab world that is still, to this day, technically at war with Israel.

The only two countries that have offered Israel an alternative are Egypt and Jordan, and they're the only two Arab countries at peace with Israel today.

I'm sure there are plenty of Israeli "morons". However they aren't the problem that needs to be solved.

[BayCityProgressive]

9. well I would say they are part of the problem

when the are bulldosing homes in Palestine among other atrocities and bombing Lebanon back to the stone age.Both sides should let the UN in and create some type of very limited government that includes people from both sides and try and at least come up with a few things in common that they could enact in both states. Perhaps a denounciation of terrorism from the Palestinians and a vow to stop bullldozing neighborhoods from Israel would be a good start. I don't believe that Palestine has no reasonable people. Also, The Palestinians have never been given an offer to return to the 1967 borders. I think that plan is also shoddy and in the end the only peace with come through one secular progressive state...but that is just me. Also, I do agree with you that Israel is a semi-secular state, but there have been other middle eastern governments that were semi-secular as well...we just destroyed one in Iraq.

[BayCityProgressive]

10. We also

destroyed a secular progressive government in Iran in the 50's I believe.

[Cary]

12. I'm not saying that there aren't reasonable Palestinians

I'm not sure what you mean by "semi-secular". That's kind of like "semi-pregnant".

And comparing Israel to Saddam's Iraq isn't even remotely fair or reasonable. There are 1.3 million Arab Israeli citizens. Unless and until one truly understands their role (and I do not know if you do or you don't), I don't see how one can feel qualified to comment.

The warring factions aren't just Arabs and Jews. In fact as I understand it, it isn't even Jews who comprise the group that is clearly the most fervent anti-Palestinian.

"The 1967 borders" aren't particularly relevant. You are talking about a ceasefire line. The Arabs lost the wars that they clearly started. There is no rational basis for "status quo ante." Going back to the topic of this thread, you have the group that was elected by the Palestinians proclaiming perpetual war with Israel.

As things stand, it is crystal clear that the Palestinians have chosen perpetual war.

I'm not particularly fond of the hardball tactics. However I'm not an Israeli citizen and I have no say in the methods employed by Israel in order to secure their own security. I am certain that they are seeking security and I am not going to second guess them.

You are of course free to second guess them as you please. But at the end of the day, unless and until the Palestinians truly sue for peace I don't think they're ever going to get any. And I don't think your second guesses are going to matter either.

[BayCityProgressive]

20. By semi-secular

I mean they are a jewish state but allow some rights to other non-jewish citizens. I don't think Israel or Israeli's are "evil" I just thinkt he constant blaming of the Palestinians and Muslims for everything is going to get them nowhere. Look at all the outrage over having ONE muslim put in a political position in Israel. Granted, if a Jew was placed in any position in Palestine they would be immediately murdered. I do not doubt the cruelty of many of the Palestinian "leaders", but pointing fingures and giving out 100% blame to one side or the other will get them nowhere. That is why an international force should patrol the borders, help arrest terrorists and distribute needed aid to make sure it gets to the people it is intended for. Also, I would create some type of commission with participation elected by the people from both states to try and work on some areas of agreement. The fight over borders and what is fair is the reason I think the two states should eventually be reunited OR be one state with two largely autonomous states within it. Both sides need to discard the religious extremism.

[Cary]

23. Rights?

You're lumping together a number of groups. I'm not sure where you derive your facts from. Muslims have had more than "ONE" "political position" in Israel since there has been an Israel.

It isn't about pointing fingers. It's about making a Palestinian state possible, and it isn't going to be possible without recognition.

As far as international forces go, I hate to admit it but the rightists see the reality of this. They were not neutral in Lebanon, and you can see how an international border works there.

The path to peace lies in following Jordan and Egypt. There is no other way. It isn't easy but they did it at considerable risk. Look what happened to Sadat.

[breakaleg]

25. Why must official regognition be the launching point for discussions?

It's been stated that recognition of Israel by Palestinians has been done indirectly in many ways. I won't find the report I'm thinking of. Why not start discussions now, knowing they will take a while and have that recognition come as part of a peace deal?

Isn't it possible that Hamas is sticking to the rhetoric since that's really the only way they have to fight Israel. And Israel is using this lack of acknowledgment as an excuse to halt any discussions?

[oberliner]

26. Hamas and Israel

From Hamas, as cited in the orginal article:

"We will never recognize Israel. There is nothing called Israel, neither in reality nor in the imagination,"

Also, this week, the leader of Hamas in Gaza, Mahmoud al-Zahar, said:

"Palestine means Palestine in its entirety — from the Sea to the River, from Ras Al-Naqura to Rafah. We cannot give up a single inch of it. Therefore, we will not recognize the Israeli enemy’s to a single inch."

How is that a starting point for any kind of peace agreement?

Can you point to any evidence that suggests that Hamas is willing to accept any kind of final settlement that involves Israel being recongized by Hamas as a state?

Such recognition violates the very foundation of Hamas.

To cite the Hamas Charter:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

[breakaleg]

27. this is what I was thinking of.

I've found similar things in other articles but I don't know who the author is and a quick google of the guy didn't yield anything, so I hesitate to post it.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1987622,00.html

Hamas accepts the existence of the state of Israel but will not officially recognise it until the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, according to the Hamas leader in Damascus, Khaled Meshal.

In comments to Reuters, Mr Meshal softened his anti-Israel rhetoric, suggesting that Hamas does not seek the destruction of Israel as written in its charter. He said that Israel is a "reality" and "there will remain a state called Israel - this is a matter of fact". He added: "The problem is not that there is an entity called Israel. The problem is that the Palestinian state is non-existent."


on edit: Here is another article: http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=19190

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

[oberliner]

28. Here's a BBC interview with Meshaal from a year ago

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4693382.stm

Here is an excerpt from the very end:

Q: Is there any solution that you see that would involve Palestine existing alongside the Jewish state of Israel permanently?

A: If the international community is talking about a permanent solution then it has to find out what the roots to the problem are and what the Palestinian rights are.

The search for a final solution requires us to go back to the roots of the problem and how it began. Israel doesn't even recognise our basic rights, the international community doesn't either.

Even when Yasser Arafat announced that he accepted a permanent solution on the 1967 borders, Israel didn't implement it. The problem is not for a Palestinian to come and say I consider this a permanent solution and then Israel will implement everything.

Q: So if Israel changed would you change? Do you accept Israel? Would you recognise them? Would you live in peace alongside them?

A: When Israel changes, come and ask me to change.

<End of excerpt>

I honestly don't know what to make of the various things Hamas leaders have said. It is difficult to know who speaks for the organization, be it Meshaal, Haniyah, or any of the Hamas spokesmen. I am not convinced that Hamas shares the same goal that Fatah currently espouses, a two-state solution as a final settlement.

The fact that it has only been fairly recently that Israeli and Palestinian leaders have embraced this shared goal suggests that perhaps other more extremist elements on both sides may also yet be convinced to come around.

[breakaleg]

29. I see that statement as him

dancing around the question. He doesn't explicitly say anything definitive about Israel. In either case, I think a lot of what we read in the press has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Each side does a lot of grandstanding for the other and regardless of what their leadership says on a given day, I think the majority of Palestinians want a peace settlement.

It's so frustrating to see the extremists - both Palestinian and Israeli - direct the course of this dispute.

I don't see this declaration as the big deal it's made out to be. I think it's made out to be a big deal as an excuse to hold off making peace.

[oberliner]

31. Extremists

What is the answer? What do you think we can/should do?

It seems like you share the goal of a two-state solution. Bill Clinton, in my opinion, worked as hard as can be to try to make it so. And he came really close.

Now it seems like we are farther away from that peaceful resolution, with extremists gaining traction.

What role do you think a Democratic President should have here?

[breakaleg]

32. I think the US can wield a lot of pressue on Israel and should use that

for push for an agreement. I don't think any solution can or will come without US pressure. Silence equals approval. Right now Bush's silence has created an environment in which Israel feels it can do what it wants and there is no peace process.

I'd like to see a solution that both sides can live with. I know there has been a lot of competing reports about the Camp David proposal, but I don't see how Palestinians can accept settlements and their Israeli-only roads running up and down the West Bank. And if Israel really and truly wants peace, then they have to not allow the settlers drive the agreement.

[cool user name]

30. Well ...

You forget, too, that Israel is in fact the closest thing ever in the Middle East to a secular state with freedom for Jews, Muslims, and Christians.


Israel is a democracy, there is no argument there except for perhaps degree which is neither here nor there. America was democracy while it was lawful to have slaves. Now, I'm not comparing Israel to early 19th Century America, however, you seemed to have avoided the issue of systematic racism and class/ethno identity "issues" within Israel proper - just leaving the territories out of it. Uri Avnery then addresses the issue of how Israel proper can remain a democracy and still have colonial/imperial ambitions while oppressing a whole people in the occupied territories simply on the basis of ethnicity/religion.

It simply isn't fair or objective to proclaim that "these people are complete morons too." It's not like they have ever been given a viable option as to how to deal with the Palestinians. Arafat didn't give it to them. Abbas might, be he doesn't have the power.

I'm not sure to whom you are referring "they have never been given a viable option."

And, well, you can see Israel's alternatives with respect to Hamas. Add Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and the rest of the Arab world that is still, to this day, technically at war with Israel.

Hezbollah reacts to the occupation of the Sheba Farms (with a minor interest in Palestinian justice). Syria has made serious overtures for peace. The Arab world more or less is not at war with Israel. In fact, the Saudi Initiative had the support of the Arab league and was rebuffed by Israel in 2002 (there were similar earlier initiatives). Israel will not relinquish the territories ... it's pretty much a question of what she deems important, I suppose. Peace or more land?

I'm sure there are plenty of Israeli "morons". However they aren't the problem that needs to be solved

The settler community holds much influence in Israel politics. Their moronic agitation to keep the West Bank is a main obstacle to peace. Both sides have their morons and both sides' morons are calling the shots.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cary]

6. Lovely.

[ZacharyG]

7. So, you agree that Israel does not exist?

Strange to see someone who agrees with Hamas with an Obama avatar.

[idealistMO]

8. look at the truth.

Israel govt is nothing but a bunch of bullies, and the poor people of Palistine have only limited means of dealing with the oppression that is forced upon them. The Israel Govt. has never dealt fairly with Palistine people - so what do you expect......they are being forced into extinction. Why should I care any less for the people of Palistine than I do for endangered species like Polar Bears and other living creatures.

[ZacharyG]

11. Hamas is an anti-Semitic and anti-American terrorist organization

One can support the Palestinian cause without agreeing with Hamas.

[Cary]

14. I'll go a step further.

One cannot truly support the Palestinian cause and agree with Hamas.

Hamas is a dead end, just as neoconservativism is a dead end.

[cubs4life]

13. It's Palestine.

Perhaps you'd be taken more seriously if you could spell the name of the area you are defending.

[Cary]

15. A Cubs fan, talking about being taken seriously?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cary]

19. Go White Sox.

World Series again baby.

:toast:

[cubs4life]

21. World Series baby? Like The Bears Second Super Bowl

Championship?

How's that working out for you?

[Cary]

24. Oh, the Bears didn't get to the Super Bowl?

So sorry. I thought they did. I thought the Bears did a bit better than 30 other teams in the NFL and I thought that worked out pretty well.

I think it will work next year too. I'm very, very happy thank you.

Now, about that Cubs World Series. . .


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Lurking Dem]

17. "They are being forced into extinction."

Then how is their population rate keeps going up?

[cubs4life]

18. Why don't you ask surrounding Arab countries about the

Palestinians being forced into extinction?

They are quite fond of refugee camps themselves.

There's plenty of blame to go around in the entire region. The Palestinian people's neighbors only further the Palestinian cause to deflect scrutiny of their own despotic regimes. You care more about their plight then their Arab brethren do.

[Cary]

22. Well they aren't being forced into extinction, so this part of the . . .

discussion is nonsense.

Their population growth, like Muslim population growth generally, exceeds the growth of Western populations and the population of Israeli Jews.

So much for extinction.

You're correct about their treatment at the hands of their Arab brethren, but I'm not sure how relevant that is exactly. In fact look objectively at the lives of the Palestinians who are Israeli citizens and I think you will see them as being far better off than most of the Arab brethren you refer to.

I don't understand why that fact always seems to be lost in the minds of the anti-Israel crowd.