British Jews break away from 'pro-Israeli' Board of Deputies

[Ken Burch]

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2237707.ece

A new progressive, independent organization dedicated to working for peace, justice and an honest discussion of I/P issues.

Signatories to its founding document include Eric Hobsbawm, Harold Pinter, Stephen Fry, Mike Leigh and Leon Rosselson.

I always respect those who fight for justice.

[Jim Sagle]

1. Yeah, right.

[Ken Burch]

2. ...care to explain that response?

Why can't you try, I dunno, reading the article and judging what these people did on the merits of the act?

Do you honestly see ANY criticism of Israel as "anti-semitic"?

Even when you know the Israeli status quo policies are just making everything worse?

The people who started this group support peace and justice. The Israeli goverment doesn't. It just wants the war to go on forever because that's the only thing that keeps the Israeli right in power. Olmert would rather sell his grandmother into white slavery than sign a real peace deal. The Israeli people themselves know peace has to come and a Palestinian state has to be created, its the war-loving politicians there that are the problem.

what is it with you, Jimbo?

[Jim Sagle]

4. Your description of the Israeli government is way over the top.

Reading it conjures up an image of a mustachioed silent movie villian who's just tied the fair damsel to the railroad tracks.

They're actually much more restrained than their Arab opponents would be if power roles were reversed.

[Ken Burch]

6. Why SHOULD that government get the benefit of the doubt?

Their policies towards the Palestinians have clearly been designed to enrage them and to provoke violent actions on their part, so that the Israeli government could carry on militarizing and de-democratizing Israel itself.

If the Israeli government had REALLY wanted peace, it would have permanently banned all settlement construction after 1994, stopped stealing most of the water, and ended the home demolitions and checkpoint policies. None of those choices were consistent with wanting peace. They were consistent with humiliating and repressing Palestinians and with claiming "victory" and "creating facts on the ground".

The Israeli people deserve a better set of leaders. The ones they have now are NOT on their side.

When Israel has a government that is progressive and humane, THEN there might be peace.

(also, you made your snide original post before I'd said ANYTHING about that government, so you still haven't explained it. Btw my condolences on the loss of your dog, whatever the hell he has to do with this.)

[Ken Burch]

3. Other signatories include members of the Slovo family

descendents of Ruth First and Joe Slovo, a couple who fought heroically against the South African apartheid system (at a time when Israel unquestioningly championed South Africa).

Ruth First herself was killed in the struggle for freedom. Her children and children carry on the fight for a better world for all.

[Hardrada]

5. Good for them!

I think you are entitled to a civilized response.

[Ken Burch]

7. Thank you, Hadrada.

My sole reason for posting in I/P is to work for peace and justice in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute. This requires open debate and honesty.

Some people are determined to prevent open debate and to demonize any dissent from "the line".

[Jim Sagle]

8. Or maybe they just ain't got time for the jibber jabber.

[Ken Burch]

10. If you don't have time for the truth, don't read this thread.

BTW, I'm pretty sure that Ben Harper would not agree that Olmert "believes in a better way"?

Why defend the government, when you know its policies are actually ENDANGERING the Jewish people?

The only way to secure Israel's future is to accept a Palestinian state NOW, and to end the Occupation forever. The iron fist doesn't work and you know it.

[Jim Sagle]

13. Why hasn't the Palestinian side declared a state by now? Do they want a state alongside Israel?

Or are they still holding out for all the marbles? Hamas recently said, again, as they've said so often before, that they will never recognize Israel.

[Ken Burch]

14. Actually, Arafat was told by the U.S. and the Israelis NOT to declare a state.

He'd been so badly weakened and humiliated by then that he had no choice but to agree.

I'm not a Hamas supporter, but you have to recognize that they came to power in part because Arafat made concession after concession and got nothing for it but grief.

The Israeli government still thinks IT can get "all the marbles". Olmert and those to his right still haven't given up on preventing the establishment of a Palestinian state and forcing the Palestinians to choose between permanent second-class treatment and transfer.

It's the old "why SHOULD they have a state when they could just move to Jordan/Egypt/etc" meme. It was bullshit in 1967, it was bullshit in 1978 when Begin forced Sadat to sell out the Palestinians at Camp David and its bullshit now.

The way to peace is justice. The time for "peace through crushing the foe" is gone.

[Jim Sagle]

15. When both sides see that, we'll see progress.

[Ken Burch]

16. Palestinians will be much more likely to "see that" when the IDF stops trying to crush them.

The heavy-handedness and the strutting macho don't serve Israeli security. In fact, they undermine it.

And there's nothing I've said in any of these posts that isn't said every day in the Knesset, or by courageous Israeli peace activists like Uri Avnery(whose writings you should read, btw).
It's only the hardliners on the government bench or the high command of the IDF who refuse to accept reality. And no one in this country does Israel any favors by encouraging the hardliners to stay hardline.

We pour insane amounts of money into subsidizing this nightmare. We, as Americans, should support those who REALLY want peace.

The cycle has to be broken. The obsession with "winning" has to be broken. Justice and equality are the only ways to peace.

[Jim Sagle]

20. We can go on like this indefiniitely...and I guess we will.

And so on and so on and scooby dooby do...

[Ken Burch]

21. Well, yes, we could...

As long as you refuse to accept the reality of the situation.

Your call, I guess.

Just remember, your position is against justice and peace.

[Jim Sagle]

22. Your attitude is one-sided, self-righteous rubbish.

[Ken Burch]

23. This from the person who thinks no criticism of the Israeli government can be tolerated?

It's a government like any other.

It's just as legitimate to criticize it's mistakes and moments of brutal arrogance as any other.

Why do you always try to silence an honest discussion?

I've been critical of Hamas. I wish they would recognize Israel, at least within the pre-1967 boundaries(which is really all the recognition Israel has the right to demand). I think the use of "the martyrs" has done far more harm than good.

But Olmert and the Israeli right are the ones who have all the real power in this situation, and you need to recognize that they have the responsibility to stop the oppression.

Zionism will never be a progressive liberation movement again. It's doing nothing now but leading a meaningless turf battle.

[Jim Sagle]

24. I'm just voicing my own opinion, not trying to silence anybody.

Just one man, doin' the best I can...to make the world a better place. :beer:

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Drop that mirror right now Jimbo!!

;)

[Jim Sagle]

26. Only one aswer to that!

:beer:

[Violet_Crumble]

27. No need for an aNswer, just drop that mirror! n/t

[Jim Sagle]

28. Burp!

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Do you have anything intelligent to say about the OP?

Oops. Now that was a stupid question...

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Do you?

"Oops. Now that was a stupid question..."

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Thanks for asking. As a matter of fact, I do...

Moves like the creation of Independent Jewish Voices is something which should be supported by anyone who thinks it's important to dispel the notion that British Jewry are monolithic in their views on the I/P conflict. The Board of Deputies of British Jews has long been criticised for promoting itself and its unquestioning support of Israel as speaking on behalf of British Jews, and many British Jews want it to be able to separate the interests of the British Jewish community (which they do support) from its unbending and unquestioning support of the policies of the Israeli govt (which they don't support). The Board of Deputies official line is that it will not criticise the Israeli govt, so clearly it was felt an organisation was needed for British Jews who don't think their Jewish identity is dependent on them staying silent instead of criticising Israel...

[Jim Sagle]

31. Not that I'm surprised...

:rofl:

[Violet_Crumble]

33. I doubt anyone's surprised, Jimbo...

[Jim Sagle]

34. Ruh roh! It's that time again.

A little :beer: followed by a good night's :boring:.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Thank goodness Skinner doesn't have an icon for going to the toilet...

..or else you might start announcing in icon language every time you need to go to the loo ;)

[Hardrada]

17. Those people are drearily predictable.

Keep up your good work!

[Ken Burch]

18. You too, Hadrada!

(and the posts of the person I've been sparring with here demonstrate that predictability, btw).

The answer is justice and equality, not "facts on the ground", "ha breira" or crushing the foe.

[breakaleg]

9. I think it's time we recognize that there is more than one Jewish voice. And that it's ok.

[Ken Burch]

11. That's my point exactly.

Why anyone thinks it's a good idea to silence debate and criticism on this issue is a total mystery.

[breakaleg]

12. I don't understand it, especially around here. It's been posted here many times

that in Israel there is plenty of debate of the very same issues we see here, and that it's ok. So, why isn't it acceptable to discuss these same things in the US?

[Hardrada]

19. There are various books devoted

to this very issue. I think the US public is finally waking up after a long not-so-enchanted slumber.