Shooting erupts on Israel-Lebanon border (AP)

[Eugene]

Shooting erupts on Israel-Lebanon border

33 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - Shooting erupted on the Israel-Lebanon border during an Israeli operation
to search for bombs planted by Hezbollah guerillas late Wednesday night, the army said.

The army said troops operating in Israeli territory along the frontier came under fire,
and that the source of the shooting was apparently Lebanese troops nearby. When the
attackers refused to cease fire, the Israeli troops opened fire at them, the army said.

The gunfire came as Israeli armored bulldozers searched for explosives planted by
Hezbollah guerrillas along the frontier, the army said.

-snip-

Full article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070207/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_lebanon_4

(Reuters)

Lebanon confirms clash with Israelis,no casualties
07 Feb 2007 22:11:00 GMT
Source: Reuters

BEIRUT, Feb 7 (Reuters) - The Lebanese army said its soldiers had exchanged fire with an
Israeli force on Wednesday on their shared border but there were no Lebanese casualties.

"An Israeli bulldozer crossed into south Lebanon tonight. Our forces opened fire at it.
It pulled back and there was a brief exchange of fire," a Lebanese army spokesman said.

Asked about Israeli reports that there were casualties on the Lebanese side, the spokesman
said they had suffered no casualties.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L07153173.htm

[northernsoul]

1. Here we go again!

Hopefully, cooler heads on all sides will prevail - but I've learned not to count on that happening anymore.

[whistle]

2. Dick Cheney and GWB doing a "Yesssss" in the oval office hoping

...this action can take the focus on their misdeeds in the Plame case and march to nuclear bombing in Iran

[bemildred]

3. Nothing to see here, move along, move along ... nt

[IndianaGreen]

4. Clearly another Israeli provocation, like they used to do in Golan to provoke the Syrians

Israeli and Lebanese troops clash at border

Agencies in Beirut
Thursday February 8, 2007
The Guardian

Shooting erupted across the Israeli-Lebanese border last night for the first time since last summer's war, when Lebanese troops opened fire on an Israeli bulldozer that apparently crossed the UN-demarcated boundary.

A Reuters correspondent at the scene and Israeli security sources said the clash began after the Lebanese troops shot in the air as an Israeli patrol crossed a security fence to search for explosives planted by Hizbullah. Israeli troops responded with tank and light weapons fire, Israeli security officials said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,2008319,00.html

[henank]

5. It is exactly the other way round

The Israelis were on their own side of the border when the Lebanese fired "warning shots" at the IDF. The IDF then retaliated. Rule #1: don't pick a fight on a hot border.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2248780.ece

Israeli tanks shelled Lebanese Army positions late last night after coming under fire as they joined an operation to comb the border area for explosive devices placed by Hizbollah guerrillas.

The Israel Defence Forces said early today that an engineering force had been searching for further devices after finding four along the border on Monday, when it came under fire from Lebanese Army units.

It said that the Lebanese units had fired warning shots towards IDF forces operating within Israeli sovereign territory, though north of the perimeter fence, despite an official warning to the United Nations Interim Forces in Lebanon that it would be conducting a sweep of the area.

[calzone]

6. So you know the truth, huh?

So far we've got the Lebanese military saying the Israelis crossed into their territory, and the Israeli military saying they were attacked on their own side....until we see more reports from uninvolved sources we'll just have to speculate. Personally, given Israel's long history of violating borders and ceasefires, I'm leaning towards the lebanese version.

"Milos Strugar, the spokesman for the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), issued a statement on Thursday describing the incident as "serious" and said UN soldiers had been deployed in the area.

He said: "The exchange was initiated by the Lebanese army after an IDF bulldozer crossed the technical fence in an apparent attempt to clear the area between the ... fence and the Blue Line of mines."
Al Jazeera

[Behind the Aegis]

7. UNIFIL

He said: "The exchange was initiated by the Lebanese army after an IDF bulldozer crossed the technical fence in an apparent attempt to clear the area between the ... fence and the Blue Line of mines."

That means the action was taking place WITHIN Israeli territory and that the Lebanese army ILLEGALLY fired on the IDF, who were INSIDE the Israeli border, and therefore, NOT in violation of the ceasefire.

[calzone]

16. Looks like the IDF crossed the blue line

The part you failed to include from the article was....
"UNIFIL troops have been deployed in the area and are ascertaining the facts concerning the incident."

New evidence emerges:
"Contrary to earlier reports, UNIFIL's assessment team, and the Lebanese Army, said the devices were just north of the Blue Line so Israeli fire had to cross the Blue Line in order to detonate the devices, which constitutes an Israeli violation of the cease-fire that ended the war.

Haaretz reports that Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora said the bulldozers crossed the Blue Line into Lebanese territory, which he called a violation that "compounded the daily violations of Lebanese sovereignty by Israeli aircraft."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0208/p99s01-duts.html

In fact, Israels' airforce violates Lebanons' borders on a regular basis.

[ZacharyG]

17. UNIFIL confirms Israel's version: IDF troops didn't enter Lebanon

UNIFIL confirms Israel's version: IDF troops didn't enter Lebanon
09/02/2007

The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) accepted on Thursday Israel's version of the events that concluded in an exchange of fire between the Israel Defense Forces and the Lebanese Army at the border late Wednesday.

UNIFIL patrolled the area around Israel's and Lebanon's shared border, photographed the site, and concluded that IDF troops operated entirely within Israeli territory.

The Lebanese Army on Wednesday fired warning shots at IDF troops, claiming that the troops had entered Lebanese territory.

UNIFIL has not yet completed the official report on the incident, however, a UNIFIL representative briefed the UN Security Council on Thursday, and confirmed Israel's version of the events.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823212.html

[calzone]

18. You're posting the old, un-updated report n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

19. The above report is newer than your source.

It also includes information that was not yet released. Seems it wasn't Israel this time.

[calzone]

21. Sigh- the report is post-dated...

We shall see in the coming days. What the original report didn't mention is that the Lebanese forces first fired warning shots at the Israeli sappers (via the IDF spokesman). And the spokesman seems to be a little confused. He first says they were exploding un-exploded bombs from pre-war, then describes them as mines that were recently laid, of course HOW he knows they were recently laid is something I would be entertained to read.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Doesn't change the facts...

...that the mines were in Israel proper or that the Israelis did not cross the Blue Line or that the Israelis did not fire the first shots. As for the mines, there are claims they were laid recently in the early morning fog. However, a Hizb'allah spokesman denied it saying it was laid before the war in July, confirming that Hizb'allah crossed into Israel illegally.

[calzone]

24. That is incorrect...

There is no confirmation the explosives were mines, and no confirmation that they were on Israeli territory. There's a difference between an "unexploded bomb" and a mine, which is why I think it's interesting that the IDF spokesperson can't seem to get his story straight.
The latest info is that Israel crossed the border. That would be characteristic. Like I said, if this doesn't drop off the media radar, we'll get more precise info.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Seems there is quite a bit of corroboration that Israel did NOT violate the Blue Line.

You just seem to be missing that point. Mines or unexploded bombs, not really the issue. When and where they were placed, is. I doubt the "when" will ever be answered. I am not sure how that could be determined, but I suppose anything is possible. The UN seems to be satisfied that Israel did not violate the truce. If that is the case, then it means that Lebanon did. However, we shall see how it all pans out.

[calzone]

27. here's an ordinance primer

In response to your belief that whether unexploded bomb or mine, it's irrelavent.
An unexploded bomb is a aircraft or artillery delivered explosive that fails to detonate due to mechanical malfunction.
A mine is a deliberately concealed explosive meant to remain passive until an outside force contacts it physically or by disturbing lines of force, and is addressed to whoever it may concern.
That makes the two kinds of explosives completely different in the context of this issue.
You say that the UN is "satisfied that Israel did not violate the truce", but where you get that idea is a mystery to me. The reports I've read are to the contrary.
Finally, if Israel didn't do anything wrong, then why did the Lebanese forces, who haven't fired on Israeli forces since the end of the last conflict, first fire warning shots then direct fire at the Israeli bulldozers?
When someone says "he just ran up and punched me for no reason", I tend to smirk.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. Do you even bother reading what has been posted?

You ask questions already answered. It is still irrelevant whether they were clearing mines or shells. It is a red herring. They were clearing one of the two. I have no idea what reports you are reading, but the ones coming from the UN and from sources at the UN are more credible to me, then you or your interpretation of events.

[calzone]

32. You're sexy when you're mad

I have no idea what yer tawkin bout willis.
I base my comments on the UN reports. You've used the weird "do you even read what's posted" and so has other folks here about a half dozen times on me and it's no more "ingenuous" now than before.

[ZacharyG]

20. Better tell the Secretary-General

In a statement based on observations from the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon, Mr. Ban said the Lebanese armed forces fired the initial shot in the first armed clash on the border since the war with Hezbollah last August. Mr. Ban also indicated that their target, an Israel Defense Force bulldozer, was operating inside Israel's territory.

http://www.nysun.com/article/48372

[calzone]

23. Ummmm, Zach, the NY Sun...

...is a rightwing rag that's universally held in utter contempt by the country's legitimate journalists and newspapers. I suggest you avoid that source.
And an "indication" is neither a conclusion nor a confirmation.
Additionally, you interestingly failed to post the paragraph immediately following the one parsed....

"But the Security Council, which later issued its own statement, made no reference to the secretary-general's comments. Instead, it reverted to familiar U.N. language and appealed to "all parties" to respect the cease-fire."

The security council did not endorse Ban's alleged statement.

Tsk tsk tsk Zach. If I were a little more cynical.......

[ZacharyG]

25. Thank you for the tip about the NY Sun

I did not know. I just used Google News to search for UNIFIL and that site came up.

But, here are some direct quotes though that corroborate the NY Sun story:

From the UN:

“The exchange of fire, which was initiated by the Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) after an IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) bulldozer crossed the technical fence in an apparent attempt to clear the area between the technical fence and the Blue Line of mines, constitutes a breach of the cessation of hostilities as laid out in Security Council resolution 1701," a spokesperson for Mr. Ban told reporters in New York.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=21504&Cr=leban&Cr1=

From the AP:

Lebanon's Prime Minister Fuad Saniora on Thursday denounced what he called Israel's violation of the Blue Line near the village of Maroun el-Rass, scene of heavy fighting in the war. The bulldozer drove about 20 meters (22 yards) into Lebanon, Lebanese military officials said.

But Slovakia's UN Ambassador Peter Burian, the current council president, said Undersecretary-General for Peacekeeping Jean-Marie Guehenno told members at a closed briefing Thursday that "there was no violation of the Blue Line."

Liam McDowell, a spokesman for the UN peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon known as UNIFIL, said the exchange of fire was "initiated by the Lebanese army" when the Israeli bulldozer crossed a "technical fence" to clear mines.

That "technical fence" was built by the Israelis in their territory but it is not at the Blue Line, and Israel controls additional territory between the fence and the UN-drawn border.

UN spokesman Michele Montas said the exchange of fire was initiated by the Lebanese armed forces after an Israeli bulldozer "crossed the technical fence in an apparent attempt to clear the area between the technical fence and the Blue Line of mines.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1170359817395&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[calzone]

28. You're welcome....

I read the additional links...the UN link is an early, since updated report...the jerusalem post is not an unbiased source IMHO. It's like expecting the US state department, white house, pentagon, washington times, NY Times, Washington Post, fox, or CNN to give an honest, accurate, complete, unbiased account of our military activities and the activities of our adversaries. That won't happen. BTW, the Israeli people are cultivated like mushrooms just like we are here in the states. Perception management, stenography press release reportage, careful omissions and outright fabrications are the order of the day.
Europeans laugh and shake their heads in sadness at our mainstream press, and I sure don't blame them.

[ZacharyG]

29. The Jerusalem Post link

Was actually an AP story.

The same exact article probably appeared in newspapers across the world.

[calzone]

33. Just as bad.

AP-----------Sun Myung Moon.

[Lurking Dem]

34. That's UPI.

[ZacharyG]

35. Sun Myung Moon

Founded the Washington Times and owns United Press International (UPI).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Times

[calzone]

36. You're right. My bad.

[breakaleg]

8. So the IDF was trying to locate some bombs they suspect Hezbollah laid for them and

it's not clear when they were placed. Some reports say in the last few days, others say they were there since the last conflict.

And Israel has yet to turn over maps to the land mines they placed during the first Lebanon war.

So, does possibly crossing the border to locate these seem a little extreme given Israel's own actions?

[Behind the Aegis]

9. Huh?

Israel has the right to look for mines on their own territory, no matter when they were laid and no matter what maps they have or haven't provided. The UNIFIL said the "event" took place between the fence and the Blue Line, the "official" border. Therefore, the Israelis were in THEIR own country!

[breakaleg]

10. It seems there have been conflicting reports on that. So I did say in my post

"possibly", given that we don't know for certain just yet.

chill.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Still doesn't make any sense.

Despite your use of "possibly," your 'theory' rests on the fact that Israel crossed the border, otherwise, what is the big deal of looking for bombs in your own country?

[Scurrilous]

12. Haaretz news flash:

11:33 Lebanese sources: IAF fighter jets, drones circling above south Lebanon (Israel Radio)

[Scurrilous]

13. Siniora blasts IDF 'violation' of Lebanese sovereignty

<snip>

"Prime Minister Fuad Siniora on Thursday denounced what he called Israel's violation of the Lebanese border, saying Israeli troops crossed the internationally-recognized border prior to the first exchange of fire between the two countries' forces since just after last year's war between Hezbollah and Israel.

Siniora discussed the border clash with UN envoy Geir Pedersen, telling him that his government condemned what he described as the new Israeli aggression on Lebanon's sovereignty and what he called the violation of the Blue Line, the UN-recognized border between the two countries.

Liam McDowell, a spokesman for the UN Interim Force in Lebanon, or UNIFIL, said the exchange was initiated by the Lebanese army and that the Israeli bulldozer had crossed the border fence, but not the Blue Line, to clear mines.

The border fence lies several dozen meters south of the Blue Line.

Speaking to Pedersen in front of reporters, Siniora said the incursion compounded the daily violations of Lebanese sovereignty by Israeli aircraft.

On Thursday morning, Israel Air Force planes flew twice over southern Lebanon."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823212.html

[Igel]

14. It would seem in Lebanon's interest for the UN to

clarify to the Lebanese government and military that Israel has not unilaterally defined and demarcated a new border by erecting a fence.

This seems to be the underlying assumption, the underlying mistake--whether done by intention, for propaganda value, or by accident.

[Englander]

15. Israel intensifies flights over Lebanon border

Israel has intensified controversial military flights over the Lebanon border but stressed it wanted no escalation after Israeli and Lebanese soldiers traded fire for the first time in decades.

"We are going to continue our flights and even bolster our aerial activities our Lebanon," General Alon Friedman told public radio hours after the exchange on the volatile Israeli-Lebanese border.

Israeli aircraft flew over the border zone Thursday, in operations that the United Nations has previously warned undermine the "credibility" of its peacekeepers and Lebanese soldiers, and "compromise" stabilizing efforts.

>snip

Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora also ordered his army to respond to any new violation of Lebanese sovereignty.

"Siniora was in contact with the army command... and gave clear orders for the confrontation of any Israeli violation of Lebanese sovereignty," the Lebanese National News Agency reported.

Siniora met Gier Pedersen, the UN representative in Lebanon, over the exchange of shots, which the agency called "a violation of the Blue Line," the line drawn by the United Nations delineating the Lebanese-Israeli border.

"It is a new violation in addition to the Israeli air violations of Lebanese sovereignty which never stopped after the ceasefire declared last August."

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/administration/afp-news.html?id=070208140846.ekhwxvnb&cat=null

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Heh, I wonder if that was a typo or he really said 'our' Lebanon?

"We are going to continue our flights and even bolster our aerial activities our Lebanon," General Alon Friedman told public radio hours after the exchange on the volatile Israeli-Lebanese border.

On a more serious note, if anyone is going to try to argue that Israel hasn't been trying to undermine the UN presence in Lebanon, they're going to have a very difficult time trying to do so and retain any credibility...