Palestinians: Our lives will become hell

[breakaleg]

The High Court of Justice on Thursday rejected petitions filed by residents of the Palestinians villages in the West Bank against the route of the separation fence, ruling that the security consideration is stronger than the damage caused to Palestinians.

The fence route, 6-kilometers (3.726 miles) long, was built around the village Emanuel, Maale Shmoron and Karnei Shomron, which are located in the West Bank, on lands belonging to Palestinian villages.

--snip--

Palestinians: Our lives will become hell


One of the petitioners, Fathi Shvita, spoke with Ynet after the verdict was read: "In our petitions we claimed that these sections are part of the separation fence and that this is not a security issue but a political one, meant to annex these areas to Israel. The judges also ruled that if farmers suffered damages due to being separated from their lands, they could return to the High Court. Meaning the court fully accepted the state's claims."



According to attorney Shvita the construction of the fence opposes international law and goes against the decision of the international court in The Hague. "I am very disappointed by the state's position," he said, "and I think that the state did not divulge the truth to the court. The High Court decided in a previous ruling that everything is determined based on the test of proportionality – if the claim that the fence defends the Israelis living in Samaria is more important than the damage caused to the Palestinian residents, then they pass the proportionality test. The court agrees that the damage caused to Palestinians is great, but still ruled that defending the Israeli citizens in the occupied territories is more important than the damage caused to the Palestinians and this is what we disagree with."




And how do the residents feel about the ruling? Abed al-Rahim Nitani, a resident of the village of Um a-Tin in Samaria spoke with Ynet: "This decision means that very soon our lives will become hell, because we will not be able to move or even breathe. The Israelis have, in fact, decided to imprison us in one big cage and surround us. The great disasted will happen when the expropriation for the construction of the second part of the fence according to the route authorized by the High Court begins. That means that we're entering an ambiguous situation that will completely change our lives. This ruling is evil, inconsiderate of human dignity and inconsiderate of the nightmare and difficulties we are about to endure. I don't know how we will be able to go out or get into our lands."

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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3319999,00.html

[ThomCat]

1. Delete Duplicate

[pelsar]

3. but it does save israeli lives....

very few sucide bombers actually make it to israel these days....

probably a dumb idea...those suicide bombers....as were the snipers, as are the kassams an mortors.....as were the attempted invasions, the kidnappings.....

the palestenian land mass keeps getting small and smaller and smaller....they might want to try to change tactics...the last 50+ years of using the same ones over and over again sure arent working very well......

[ThomCat]

4. Is the fence really the only way to achieve that?

And must the fence deliberately take a course that steals vast tracks of land and isolates palestinian communities?

If you really think that massive human rights violations are the only way to prevent attacks then there is no hope for a middle ground.

If the human rights violations against Palestinians stopped then there would be no more people willing to die to make a desperate political statement.

[pelsar]

7. the wall (its not much of a fence) was a last resort...

facts are pretty clear......before the fence no matter what the police/IDF did suicide bombers got through. Every method thwarted found the jihadists devising new ones.

unless you perhaps have some real concrete suggestions. BTW before you answer you should know the suicide bomber delivery system has three basic parts:

the bomb, the bomber and handler and the watcher (at least thats how its basically works). Bomb are attempted to be put into place in israel, the handler delivers the bomber while the watcher goes first to report whats up ahead.

You mention massive human rights violations...does that include the dead of the suicide bomber?

and your thesis of "no more human rights violations no more suicide bombers" is actually wrong. The checkposts and walls came AFTER the suicide bombers started. Before they showed up there were few and checkpoints and the ID checks were quick.

only after the bombers started blowing up busses and resturants did the checkpoints show up and the westbank divided...thats the actual history....today there are more attempts but far less successful ones.

(guess we prefer the additional attempts but less dead, then fewer attempts but more dead- i guess that means were preventing the palestenians from making "masssive human rights violations"

[breakaleg]

8. in your reply, you neglected to mention the effect of the wall on

the Palestinian people. As if they don't matter.

The wall is hurting the innocent Palestinians by destroying their livelihood or their ability to make a living. It's creating more hate.

This would seem counterproductive. But I've come to believe that's exactly what Israel wants. They want more excuses so they can steal their land without resistance. That's their ultimate goal.

[Name removed]

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[breakaleg]

11. Well,

I believe they offered him patches of the West Bank, not 100% percent of it. And these patches were to be broken by the many "Israeli-only roads" running through it in many directions.

And if they don't want land, why do they still expand the settlements? Even after they agreed to stop the expansion? I'd love to hear your take on that one. And the claim that they need certain parts of the West Bank for security reasons won't wash.

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

16. some notes:

Egypt border patrols are mainly to keep infiltrators out, the tunnelers dont bother them that much and they dont want to get involved with the Palestinians (no one does infact). Its easier for them to turn a blind eye to the smugglers.

Jordan wants nothing to do with the west bank. The kingdom is already walking a thin line with all the Palestinians in jordan, so they're not going back.

Whats happening is simply the result of arfats leadership. He had all these different groups competing with one another, they're by not one could challenge him....he in effect set the framework for a failed state after his death....either that or the Hamas take over....a version of the Taliban.


so whats worse for citizen Palestinians: israeli occupation or a taliban style of govt that hamas is promoting?.....small voices out of gaza are being heard preferring israeli rule pre intifada I.....sometime the choices are between bad and worse.

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

22. i agree that the short term looks bad....

hamas and fatah have to essentially "duke it out"....and woe to the Palestinians if Hamas wins. Despite the verbage in English, they are very much the taliban/iranian style of fanatics that have no problem with hanging homosexuals and stoning rape victims for adultery. (not that anyone on the left actually cares about that....)

The Palestinians vis a vis israel will only get it worse. Gaza will remain a prison of sorts as Egypt doesnt want to get involved and will let israel deal with the tunnels and smuggling (missiles on Ashkelon?)

The westbank?.....i only hope the Palestinians dont start shooting kassams on israeli cities......we'll end up using tanks and artillery in response....but given the situation, its probably fair to say, it will happen.....

and what they will have is a failed society and instead of taking responsibility for it, they will simply blame israel for all their woes.....and they're leaders will never have to put the sign on the desk that says "the buck stops here"

[breakaleg]

20. Clinton offered them a patch of land that was broken up by

Israeli only roads! On what planet would any group of people find that acceptable? Israelis would still be working and running all throughout the West Bank, controlling borders, access etc. Not to mention that Israel would get the prime property, the parts they want, control of the water... It was a bad deal.

And why does Israel control the water and direct it to the settlements such that the settlers get 10 times what the average Palestinian get in the West Bank? There can be NO justification for this. The pictures of green grass inside walled homes and dry dirt outside are shocking and disgraceful.

There were reports out yesterday that said they were expanding the settlements and not due to natural growth.

[pelsar]

24. you just dont know......

the first step is understanding a conflict is the cultures involved:

The pictures of green grass inside walled homes and dry dirt outside are shocking and disgraceful.

the Palestinian/arab/islamic culture doesnt have grass outside they're homes as the norm (one does not see grass in front of israeli arab homes for example)

israeli settlements are on the hilltops, which traditionally is not where the arab villages are, nor is it "prime land."...they were placed there more for reasons of control, (they're barren)

Palestinian villages use local wells for much of their water supply.....further more the aquifer under the westbank is under Palestinian areas as well as israelis...so they can take as much as the like.....israel does not control the underground water supply

now care to comment? (dont you just hate it when facts ruin a "post"?)

[breakaleg]

26. do you realize how

insulting you are?

The majority of the water in the West Bank is directed to the settlements. It is rationed such they Israelis get more and Palestinians less. It's not that they have grass, but that they have enough water to feed the grass while the Palestinians barely have enough water to live, wash, eat, bathe.

There have been many reports detailing exactly how much water each side gets. There have been many reports detailing how in Israel's plan for dividing up the West Bank, they get control of the water. It's an issue.

I'm done.

[pelsar]

31. additional knowledge is not "insulting"...ignorence is....

do you deny that there is an aquifer under the entire westbank?....do you deny that arab villages use their own wells to get their own water?...do you claim that the PA cant dig down and lay their own pipes for water?

and yes israel is taking the water for its own purposes.....such was the case with the Jordan River, which both Jordan and Israel uses....such is the case all over the world, its an issue that has to be dealt with.....but the Palestinians arent helpless as you seem to imply, they do have a govt, they can dig....or are you implying that they cant?

i would guess "your done"..because its hard to argue that israel is "rationing water"...when all the Palestinians have to do is dig down to get their water.....but then they (you) cant blame israel if they did that.


so what makes the palestenaisn so "incompetent"...as you seem to imply?

[breakaleg]

32. .

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/facts_sheets/water.htm

[pelsar]

33. very odd statement......

Israel does not allow new wells to be drilled by Palestinians and has confiscated many wells for Israeli use....so how does the israeli govt go into Palestenains cities and "take their wells".

the acquifers are below palestenains cities as well......

When supplies of water are low in the summer months..there hasnt been a low water in years...and when there is israeli farmers get their supplies cut as well, and israelis who "waste water"are fined (washing cars/lawns etc)

perhaps you should find a link to a UN report?....a little less obvious in the propaganda?

and a bit of research finds some more interesting facts:

Ramallah gets its water from israel as do other Palestenain towns and as usual the issue is far more complex than your simplistic reporting. I've found reports of water pipes deterioriation, palestenains refusing israeli water (so as not to "agree" to the occupation-not surprising), etc. Most of the settlements get their water from "israel" and not the westbanks local acquifer etc. (info is relativly spread out over different links-so this is just a short summary of a rather complex issue....)

_____________________________

Israel would get the prime property.....

something is wrong in an arguement when has to make up facts to make a point

[breakaleg]

34. I would say

it's you who posts propoganda - Israeli propoganda.

[pelsar]

35. then refute it....

find facts.....and show me where i am wrong....if i am, and i cant refute it, not only will i apologise i wont repeat such a mistake....

and if would also be appropriate to then answer my very specific questions....after all if its just propaganda it shouldnt be a problem..correct?

[pelsar]

10. war is not a 'win win situation....

its a win lose...events in the last 10 years have shown:

the palestenains have freedom of movement.....lots of israelis dead

the palestenians have limited freedom of movement......lots of israelis live.

since i'm an israeli i prefer this newer situation than the previous one.....

________

israel years ago realized that eventually we will give them much of the westbank etc....events such as gazas kassams and hizballas katushas make that day further and further off.....one day they'll get a leader who will figure it out that the tactic of hate and violence isnt doing them very good, until that day, they're lives seem to just get more and more miserable...on less and less land.

for proof all one has to do is look at Jordan, Egypt and Syria...works for them.

[breakaleg]

12. It's a simple analogy. And it's

big of you to say that as an Israeli, all that more Israelis live. But as an occupying nation you can't just lock the Palestinians inside prisons and let them rot. That is after you've taken their land from them. I'm afraid Israel has more responsibilities than that.

Why hasn't Israel realized it has to give them ALL of the West Bank? Why only "much" of it? On what legal ground is Israel entitled to any of it? This is the problem. The world recognizes that the Palestinians are entitled to certain peices of land and Israel wants some of those peices for themselves. Since Israel is in the wrong, the only real solution is for them to face that, and give it up.

[pelsar]

14. and....

when the kassams and katuahsa and mortars start flying from hebron, jenin into israeli cities......your reply will be?

a bit a realism here for you:

the Palestinian society is made up of tens of different groups with various ideologies and funding from various places. No matter what the agreement is not all will satisfied...and given the PAs inability to control its factions (an arafat design) no matter what israel does many of these factions will continue to attack and kill israelis.

Israels first responsibility is to its own citizens. The PA had an ideal opportunity to show us that they are willing to live in peace with us when we left gaza. Did they get all they wanted? of course not, neither did we....its called compromise.

shall i remind you what they did with their opportunity to return the "breaking of the cycle of violence that we did'"....let me: kassams on our cities, destroying the greenhouses that employed 4,000 Palestinians, as well as attacks on karmi, the main import/export border......

Its simple:...the Palestinians have to stop trying to kill us.....that vast majority of the israelis see a Palestinian state in the future.....but what we dont want is a failed state next to us, which is what your proposing.

[breakaleg]

18. I get that Israel's first responsibility is to it's citizens.

But do they have to break the law to ensure that? Where is the limit? What won't they do under the guise of their protection?

And you haven't answered why it is that Israel is offering them only "much" of the West Bank instead of "all" of it, which they are entitled to.

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

23. i notice you skipped my question......

its never answered by those who claim they're "pro palestenian"

so what happens when the kassams are shot from hebron and jenin into israeli cities?.....(giving you another chance)

the palestenians are not actually entitled to anything.....way back in 48 the UN divided the land as a solution to the conflicting claims. By going to war they made it clear that they didnt accept the UNs solution.

in 67, the non acceptance was further emphasized.

the actual 67 line has been built over, any agreement, whatever it is, is between the israeli govt and the PA, whether it includes land swaps or not, is up to the two govts...thats why they call it negotiations. but its a mute point right now, unless they want Gazas chaos to expand to the westbank (i'm guessing but you seem to have no problem with that).

[breakaleg]

5. at any cost to the Palestinians?

While Israel is busy punishing the people not responsible for these crimes, they take the time to steal the land of farmers as well.

Their efforts are not even disguised as anything palatable anymore. What does that say about the direction Israel is heading in?

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. It is ethnic cleansing, pure and simple. Seperate a farmer from

his land and he will have to move or starve. Enough farmers move, and the reason for the village ceases to exist. You are aware that the tactics the palestinians use were only adopted after Israel began building permanent settlements in the occupied territories, aren't you? How many Israeli settlements in Sinai are attacked with rockets and suicide bombs? NONE. Because they pulled out and returned the land to its rightful owners.

It is the Israeli tactics that need to be looked at, not the palestinian.

[ThomCat]

2. That fence is a huge human rights violation.

It it organized premeditated theft of land and resources on a vast scale.
x(

[Tom Joad]

13. The annexation wall does destroy lives. But that, i think, is the point.

To make Palestinian lives as miserable as possible, so as many as possible will leave. And others can be crowded into as small a space as possible.

[Name removed]

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[Tom Joad]

25. Rachel, never, never, said anything bad against Jewish people.

It is not nice to libel anyone, especially the dead.

[Name removed]

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[Tom Joad]

29. You did not respond to my post.

Why did you falsely accuse Rachel Corrie saying "horrible things to say against jewish people."
This is a false statement.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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