How I became an 'unconscious fascist'

[drdon326]

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0703/nirenstein_2003_07_10.php3

VERY LONG-DONT BOTHER READING IT

[Darranar]

1. Interesting...

I disagree with the author on many points, especially about the left harboring anti-semitism, but he makes a few good points.

[tinnypriv]

2. Hilarious

I love the part about Syria having a place at the Security Council but poor Israel doesn't have a "fixed place" (para. 12). The fact that Syria is on a rotating mechanism is obviously irrelevant (and that is just one distortion I picked out at random, mixed in between dozens of slanders and fabrications).

Oh, and what to say of somebody so dangerously unhinged that they think a "large part of the world newspapers, TV, radio and school textbooks recommend kicking the Jews out of Israel and killing them all over the world using terrorist bombers?" (para. 11).

What about somebody who says that stories about deaths of Palestinian terrorists "at least in Europe...linger on their age and family stories"? (para. 34).

BTW I wouldn't follow the advice of drdon326. I would read this article, if only to see the latest shameless attempt by stalinst-style Israel-worshippers to conflagrate any opposition to the policies of Israel with "anti-semitism". A ridiculous and moronic tactic, but it does handily explain why any discussion of actual facts is scrupliously ignored: such people know that their positions cannot be defended.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinnypriv]

4. LOL

:evilgrin:

[drdon326]

5. tinnypriv

I thought of you when I posted it.

[tinnypriv]

6. I don't know

Whether to be disturbed or flattered :D

[Gimel]

7. There is no distortion

Why has Israel been denied a fixed place in regional groups in the UN while Syria sits in the Security Council?

This is a legitimate question. Your reference is a bit distorted. Being a recognized nation should qualify Israel for a "fixed place" in regional groups.

And what is said when a large part of the world newspapers, TV, radio and school textbooks recommend kicking the Jews out of Israel and killing them all over the world using terrorist bombers? The international community doesn't consider this a problem. Israel is an "unterstate", denied the basic rights of every other state, to exist in honor and peace. The Jewish state is not equal.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0703/nirenstein_2003_07_10.php3

You might add DU to that list.

[tinnypriv]

8. Yeah yeah yeah

In your imagination perhaps. :crazy:

[Violet_Crumble]

59. A comment on the regional groupings...

Israel has joined a regional grouping. I think it's the same group Australia's in.

http://www.usembassy-israel.org.il/publish/peace/archives/2000/may/me0531c.html

I don't think the question of why Syria's sitting on the Security Council is at all related to that question, though. Syria as a member of a regional grouping takes its turn with all the other members to sit on the Security Council, and while it's anything but a perfect system with members of smaller groups having more opportunities than the larger ones (which I think the WEOG group is) to be on the Security Council, it all seems a bit moot considering the big 5 on the Security Council are the ones that hold all the power anyway...



Violet...

[Americanreborn]

52. What?

"Why has Israel been denied a fixed place in regional groups in the UN while Syria sits in the Security Council?

This is a legitimate question. Your reference is a bit distorted. Being a recognized nation should qualify Israel for a "fixed place" in regional groups." -Gimel



why is china a permanent member when it committs human rights violations?

Americanreborn

[IndianaGreen]

9. the poisonous influence of antisemitism on leftist/liberal “causes:”

Look at what the rightwing and anti-Islamic website Little Green Footballs has to say about this cross-posted article:


7/15/2003: How I Became an Unconscious Fascist

Go ye and read this extraordinary article by Fiamma Nirenstein on the poisonous influence of antisemitism on leftist/liberal “causes:” How I became an 'unconscious fascist.' (Hat tip: Meryl Yourish.) It’s impossible to pull out a representative quote; just read it all. Unless you’re one of the people it describes, you’ll be glad you did. Highest recommendation.

posted by Charles at 6:34 PM PST
email this article


replies: 125 comments
Comments are open and unmoderated, although obscene or abusive remarks may be deleted. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.





#1 Zaide 7/15/2003 06:42PM PST

I just now wrote the lady a thank you e-mail & invited her to come speak to us. I hope that's okay, Charles.





#2 Teacake 7/15/2003 06:45PM PST

I just saw that article today. So true and so painful.





#3 Zaide 7/15/2003 06:46PM PST

PS
Lest anyone compare Charles' & my posting times and conclude that I'm a speed reader, I followed the link to JWR from another earlier thread.

One word description of her article:
WOW!





#4 Thumper 7/15/2003 06:49PM PST

I saw this piece first thing this morning. Long, but worth digesting every word. I wonder how she's regarded in Italy. I hope she doesn't fall by the wayside for speaking the truth, like Orianna Fallacci.





#5 Mr. E. Train 7/15/2003 06:50PM PST

GASP! Can it be true? Can those pillars of compassion, the political left truley be... BIGOTED? Say it aint so?!!

As Neo was told in that action movie I love so much just after he had been disconnected from the machine illusion..."Welcome to the real world".

Or in the words of that great philosopher Gomer Pile...
"SUPRISE SUPRISE SUPRISE!"

That the left would and do set their preconcieved pejudices before logic, evidence, country.. even friend and family is something those outside the left have known for a long time. I can only imagine how painful it must be for a person from the left to find that their friends and commrades would rather eat them alive than listen to reason should that account go against their dogma... hmm.. sounds familiar. No wonder the left gets along so well with the Islamo-fascists.


Much, much, more of LGF liberal-bashing here:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=7489

BTW, if you want to see what other anti-Islamic, anti-liberal, etc., article is going to get posted in DU, check LGF's home page first. There is a list of such articles on the left side of the home page:

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php

[Jim Sagle]

10. Like the proverbial stopped clock, even LGF is right twice a day.

And it's a refreshing change from Electronic Intifada and similar sites often used as a reference here.

This folder disgraces Democrats and liberals. DU should shitcan it.

[IndianaGreen]

11. I agree that it should be shit canned

but I think that DU has stumbled on a very good solution, keeping the I/P crap in its own little subforum.

At least we got the Foreign Affairs forum back to intelligent discussions on international affairs and national security issues, without having them buried by the crap you see posted here in the I/P basement.

[bemildred]

12. Yeah, I like it too.

The lowered noise level for those with other interests
is a big improvement.

[CitizenDick]

21. IndianaGreen

It's not just me? Cruising the other forums, I see a lot of liberal thought at Democratic Underground. But this place is an abberation. The ZOA, Jerusalem Post, and the like are sources. Demonizing Arabs and Muslims is the order of the day. Like a world of it's own here. Bizarre.

[The Magistrate]

23. Mr. Dick, Sir

Your comment here contains some unfortunate exaggerations. The reference to "demonizing Arabs and Muslims is the order of the day" is particularly inapt. Those here who uphold Israel might as easily make the claim that demonizing Israelis, or even Jews, is similarly commonplace.

Perhaps the misapprehension lies in a belief that this is an issue which divides on neat left-right lines, like union organization, or corporate regulation. It is not such an issue. There is nothing inherently leftist about support for Arab Palestine, or opposition to Israel as a state. Indeed, in doing so, one may find oneself aligned with bitterly reactionary forces, and virulent war criminals. That is possible for supporters of Israel too, of course.

What does on some occassions happen here is that people point out some of the flaws of the Islamicist opposition to Israel, and the foolish and sometimes criminal ineptitude of Arab Palestinian political leadership. This is not really different from persons differently persuaded in the matter pointing out the flaws of the most zealous fundamentalist supporters of Israel, and the foolish and sometimes criminal acts of its governments.

You must not expect to meet an "amen chorus" here on this matter. It is one wherein there is more than enough of justice and blame for either side, and in which persons of good heart and sound intellect may easily find themselves taking opposite views. There is certainly no ground for believing those here who advocate for Israel are not leftists and progressives, because they disagree with you in this matter.

[bemildred]

24. Indeed, Sir.

While it may be entertaining to lambaste Mr. Sharon or
Mr. Arafat, a reduction in the overall demonizing level
is required, rather than just one side of it. In the end
if we are all to get along, we must learn to respect each
other, and it is in that direction that a solution lies
here as well.

[Classical_Liberal]

35. Ah come off it. Not going back to the green line

and supporting the settlements is a mainstream liberal democratic position among the supporters of israel here, and it isn't in real life.

[CitizenDick]

37. Yes, exactly

Is this some kind of Twilight Zone with no up or down, no left or right, no liberal or conservative?

Note - be careful about equating liberal to Democratic - often the same, but not always.

[CitizenDick]

36. The sources I see

Jerusalem Post, World Net Daily, Canada.com, ZOA...these are not right-wing concerns? Why anyone would use such sources to support their positions, if their positions are liberal. I cannot say if anyone here is a liberal or not. Most liberals hold a few conservative veiws. They are no shame, and we shouldn't try to weave them into liberal philosophies to make them more acceptable here. But this is perhaps the only forum where I see conservative veiws advanced with such ferocity.

[Resistance]

41. which is why the discussion is kept hidden as best as possible

stuff all the hypocrisy into a little box, rather than confronting it head on

[Gimel]

42. Left of center

If you see pro-Israel as anti-human rights, and therefore Bush fundie, I think that is a problem. If I take a vacation from DU, when I come back I see only virulent comments attacking Israel.

Scratch the surface of the new-left and you get anti-west. Okay. I love the East too. The Israel/Palestinian must be approached with a different mind set, and I mean being able to perceive the forces at work in the sense of yin and yang energies. Ti Chi, Kung Fu.
The separation of the forces at work in order reveals what is fueling the conflict. What was the power stepping up the violence? It all boiled down to the terrorism, and incitement produces more hatred and terrorism. The key in fact has been located, and although you don't want to admit it, Sharon saw it all along and worked to uncover it. Bush got into the action later.

Now I'll get a lot of hate comments about Sharon, because he's pictured as a fat baby-gobbler on the PA web sites. This conflict has unleashed too much violence toward innocent people, but Sharon is not the cause of it. Some are even casting Sharon as the creator of Hamas so that he would have an excuse to attack the Palestinians. That's real loyalty to a cause.

What I don't get, is how all this anti-world order in the new generation turns to adoration of the UN, and World criminal courts. The anti-global movement is contrary to that concept, I would think.

[Darranar]

54. Israeli/Palestinian affairs...

cannot be divided into left and right in American politics. It is not conservative to support Israel. Nor is it liberal to be pro-Palestinian.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. How is a racist site a refreshing change?

There's nothing refreshing about racist sites, and my guess is that if anyone were ever to link directly to LGF, they'd be treated the same way as anyone else who posts links to bigoted hate sites. Of course while the fact that someone at DU is so enamoured of LGF that they've been inflicting a torrent of articles that LGF posts and makes comment on is disturbing and does make me question the motives of anyone who regularly visits hate sites, they're not linking directly to LGF. You try to make out that EI and other sites you don't like are just as racist as LGF. They aren't....

Would this folder be more to the liking of Democrats and liberals if we all resorted to talking in grunts and leaving posts consisting of nothing more than leaving one-line obsessive comments about Arafat and acting as though one Israeli death is equal to several hundred Palestinians? Maybe we should all follow the example of LGF and call them Pals and speak of them as though they're of no more value than dogs and go on about those dirty Ay-rabs who are evil disgusting violent Muslims? Even better yet, we'll all studiously ignore any human rights abuses against the Palestinian people and any time some unsuspecting soul mentions it we'll hit them with a barrage of one-line grunts about suicide bombers. Then we'll all hold hands and visit the FA folder and wonder why folk have got no time for us when we pop up in a thread about Chechnya adding ever-so-valuable contributions like memorial lists for all victims of terrorism that includes the name of Russian troops killed, and thinking up creative ways to repeatedly describe Chechnyan suicide-bombers as the swill of the earth, call anyone who disagrees with our sparkling posts Russia-haters, all the while being very careful never to actually address the reasons why the conflict exists or discuss anything in any depth. That'll teach everyone not to be a good liberal!!

There's several things that DU should shit-can and the I/P forum ain't one of them. I actually like how I can now read about other Foreign Affairs things without having to wade through a deluge of I/P threads to get to them...

Violet...

[Jim Sagle]

25. It's not a racist site, merely a prosemitic one.

THAT'S what I find refreshing. But hey, that's just me. :-)

[Violet_Crumble]

26. So hating Muslims is being prosemitic?

Now I've heard everything....


Violet...

[Jackie97]

28. Did you know that Palestinians are semites?

LOL.

[Jim Sagle]

30. Yes, I LOL every time I read that one. Thanks for the chuckle.

[Jackie97]

29. Other sites aren't just as bad?

"You try to make out that EI and other sites you don't like are just as racist as LGF. They aren't...."

Do you mean other sites presented on here or other pro-Palestinian sites in general? I can show you right now upon request some so called pro-Palestinian sites that say that Jews caused 9-11, want to take over the world, and other hateful things. They're just as bad and worse than LGF. I personally hate LGF, but I had to throw that in there.

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Read what Jim said...

Jim referred very clearly to sites that were used on here. Do you want a link to the post?

[Jackie97]

38. No, but thanks.

.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. You two are now mind-readers??

How do either of you know what IG has or hasn't read? You don't. And I've got no idea what that "I'm a good Jew" placard comment was all about. Whether someone posting here is Jewish or not is none of yr business and it sure doesn't make what they say on any issue more or less relevant...

Violet...

[bemildred]

18. I actually read the whole thing.

A few interesting ideas, but on the whole a depressing
exercise. The thing about simplified and self-referential
thought systems like that displayed here is they don't require
any connection to reality. This person exchanged her belief
in, um, leftist causes for a new belief in, um, Jewishness and
the Israeli cause, but its still the same old adherence to a
belief system rather than a willingness the confront the messiness
and moral ambiguity of the real world, and she is still searching
for an identity.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

20. Sure I could.

:-)

[Tinoire]

22. Oh God, Little Green Footballs?! That right-wing site?

You guys don't mean to tell me that the same propaganda crap being posted at LGF is posted at DU?

Interesting... Especially in light of the view that several of the banned I/P posters openly post at that site and admit that they were posting on both sites until Du finally banned them. Found that out when one bored night last year I did a google on one of our posters here and landed on a really hateful post along the lines of
I used to post at DU under the name of xxx until I got banned (this being someone who had accumulated over 2000 posts at the time) and then went on and on spewing a bunch of racist crap. It was amusing to see this person's true colors. The posts over there were total confirmation of the fact that not everyone here was that progressive or interested in justice or a peaceful solution.

So what the hell is this cross-over? I noticed it also but thought I'd keep my observations to myself and enjoy the shameless show.

[Jackie97]

27. I hate LGF. It's disgusting.

I have a friend who reads a lot of that. His reasoning is that they have a lot of articles supposedly from legitimate sources. He only reads, he doesn't post. I've thought of inviting him here, so he could get articles from both sides of the issue (which is what I like about this board).

I can think of two reasons why LFFers are going over here:

1) They want to convert others.

2) They're not completely certain that they're in the right, and they're exercising their brain with debates to try to make certain.

In any case, I don't think that posting stuff from LGF is against the rules (so long as it doesn't directly break one of the rules). I'm sure that pro-Israelis here find the Electronic Infidata to be just as offensive.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Why do you hate LGF?

I mean, it's not like you think it's racist or anti-Muslim or anything like that, right?

And why do you think that 'pro-Israelis' here find EI to be just as offensive? I just don't understand that one as we're talking about LGF which is virulently bigoted as opposed to a site that isn't...


Violet...

[Jim Sagle]

33. Jackie gets it. You don't..

[Violet_Crumble]

34. The problem is that I don't think Jackie does get it...

Which is why I was asking her the question. You clearly don't understand what racism or bigotry is, but I hold out more hope for Jackie seeing she's a pretty reasonable and intelligent person...

btw, if you think I don't get it, feel free to explain anytime. It'll take more than 5 words and a few grunts to do it, though...

Violet...

[Jackie97]

39. Well....

I hate LGF because I *do* find some or many of the posters to be bigoted. Of course, the behavior is treated like it's normal. I don't understand why you thought that I didn't find the site to be bigoted. Maybe it was because I said that articles from there should be allowed so long as it doesn't break the rules? I only said that because I don't blame the author of articles that bigoted pro-Israelis will use for their own purpose. Of course, maybe most of the articles are bigoted. I don't know. I mostly read the comments on the forum, and that's what turns me off of it.

I also hate it because an otherwise intelligent friend of mine is reading it too much, and acting like the articles on there are all he needs to know at times. Maybe he's been a certain way the whole time, and I never realized it.

[Gimel]

43. This LGF site

I glanced at it once and that was enough. Despite all the discusion about it, I haven't viewed it again. And probably never will. I dislike such abusive distortions. I'm pro-Israeli and I live in Israel. But I'd never use such a site or the info on the site for any purpose. I've forgotten it exists.

[Jackie97]

46. That's totally cool.

I'm glad to be reminded that some people have a conscience.

[Darranar]

47. An article can be put on more than one website...

If you checked the link, it was not linked to little green footballs. He most likely got it from a completely different website.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. And this one was found at LGF...

I don't think anyone was trying to tell you that the link led directly to LGF. But the article was one of many posted at LGF that have been posted over here after being read on that site...

Violet...

[Darranar]

53. How do you know that?

[Darranar]

55. Do you have an answer to that question?

I don't see how you "know" that drdon read this article on LGF.

[Darranar]

56. Well, Violet?

I am interested to know how you can read someone's mind and figure out where he got his sources.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. Sorry, I didn't spot you here....

I'm not in the habit of reading people's minds. But in this case when someone pointed out that drdon was hanging round LGF and getting his articles from there, I went and had a look, and lo and behold, every story posted there that had an anti-Islamic slant was reproduced faithfully over here. It doesn't take mind-reading to work out that this place was where they were all coming from. I'd suspected as much when don posted an article from the Daily Telegraph, which I knew he wouldn't read to have found the article on his own, but I was unsure of where he was getting the stuff from. Now we know...

Violet...

[Darranar]

58. I might have posted articles from the Daily Telegraph before...

I believe Google has them as one of their news sources. Other pro-Israel sites that weren't so obviously racist could have posted those articles as well.

I went down to LGF a while ago and I was disgusted, but not by the articles. The right-wing pro-war pro-revenge attitude was disgusting, and there was quite a bit of anti-Arab sentiment. But the articles themselves weren't that slanted, and though I personally would never use them as a source, aside from the obvious bias there isn't much wrong with visiting it for those articles.

There are hate sites out on the internet that are strongly anti-Israel and anti-Jewish that regurlarly post anti-Israel articles. I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them ended up here. They still could have been taken from other sources, but no matter what source they were taken from, they have to be judged on their own merits.

[Jackie97]

40. I forgot, about Electronic Infidata.

It's the name alone. It suggests that they're for the infidata (which they might be).

When many Jews and other pro-Israelis think of the word "Infidata", they don't see it as fighting for independence. They see it the murders of civilian Jewish people in Israel; possibly for the purpose of destroying Israel. They also probably think of some of the anti-semitic beliefs of those who hold the Infidata (For example, the group Hamas claims that Jews started WWI).

For people like you and me, "Infidata" means the fight for independence. For many Jews and pro-Israelis, it means murderous anti-semitism. They actually need a new name if they wish to get pro-Israelis to listen to what they have to say because the name is sending the wrong message.

[Gimel]

44. EI is on my ignore list also. nt

[drdon326]

45. Jackie97

did you read the article at the top of thread??

[Jackie97]

50. Yes, I've read the article....

I have a variety of thoughts on this, so bare with me.

First, the article is suggesting that Israel is being singled out, and that this is anti-semitic. On some points, I agree that it's at least anti-Israel and/or anti-semitic. I simply think it's outragious to want to boycott Israeli professors, students, and other Israelis in the world for their nationality when they don't boycott all Americans. The United States does things just as evil as the state of Israel and worse. I do think that it's wrong to say that the United States can "defend itself", but that Israel can't "defend itself". There is some singling out of Israel going on, which I think is totally uncalled for.

However, there's a whole lot of people in the world who are not singling out Israel at all. For example, you have people like me. I say that what Israel is doing is occupation, and not self defense. Furthermore, I say that their foreign policy is provoking hatred around the world. I say the EXACT SAME THING about the United States. I scream for an end to Israeli occupation of the Palestinians, and I scream for an end of American occupation of Iraq and Afghanestan. I feel badly for American troops being forced to stay in those countries. Likewise, I feel bad for just about every Israeli being told that they have to join the IDF or else. I say that Israel should not have had a right to be formed because it cost a lot of Palestinians their homes, but that it shouldn't be destroyed now. I say the same thing about the United States with the Native Americans. I say that Israel is currently trying to commit ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by trying to drive them out and talking about transfer. I accused the United States of ethnic cleansing of the Native Americans through driving them off of the land, transfer, and even genocide. I currently accuse the United States of committing genocide against the Iraqi people through sanctions. I also hold the UN responsible for their role in the genocide for not standing up to the United States and allowing them to use them as a genocidal tool. Violet here would say that I was in the wrong for that, and that the UN was the victim. However, nobody is the bigger victim than the Iraqi people. Anything that we threatened the UN with doesn't justify their going along with this.

In other words, there isn't a thing that I've said about Israel that I haven't said about other countries that deserved it. The same holds true for many other critics of Israel in the world (including a hell of a lot of Jews).

The article shows hurt feelings because people like us accuse Israel of slaughtering Palestinians on purpose and so forth. The truth is that Israel is doing things KNOWING that it's going to kill more Palestinians than they might be intending to kill, so it is on purpose (and yes, I've made the same criticism of the United States with their wars). To a Palestinian who has lost their loved ones (particularly a lot of civilians) or their home, they don't care about what the intent of Israel actually was. As far as they are concerned, Israel is terrorizing them. That's why they strike back with suicide bombings. I'm not saying that it's okay, because it's not. I've spoken out against them too. I am acknowledging why it's done though. It's not because of anti-semitism for the most part. It's because they're fighting to be free of Israel. Look into other liberation movements, and see if you don't find the more oppressed group killing civilians for their liberation.

I also have to say that many pro-Palestinians probably used to support Israel unconditionally until they found out the truth about what they're doing to the Palestinians. It was at that point, that the world couldn't take it anymore.

I also have to say that while this article is claiming that anti-semitism against Israel is being ignored, the opposite is true. The truth is that anti-semtism regarding Israel is being given all of the attention, while many right winged anti-semites are not being given a second look now just because they support Israel. Look at the history of the Bush family. They have vicious anti-semitism all through their family from Prescott Bush, to Bush Sr, to possibly this new Bush. Why on earth are Jews trusting this family and other anti-semite pro-Israelis?

I think that's all that I have to say for now.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. But EI isn't bigoted...

LGF is clearly bigoted and I think for people to act as though they're both as bad as each other is very misleading. How folk choose to try to demonise EI is their problem and not that of EI who I expect wouldn't give a toss about whether any of those sort of people listen to them. I think for anyone to say that EI is bigoted and anti-semitic is showing their inability to cope with anything that doesn't conform to their own beliefs, and their inability to understand bias. EI is biased, not bigoted, and as far as sources of info goes, it's probably more correct to put it on a level with that Israel-US.org site rather than to hate-filled garbage like Little Green Footballs...

Violet...

[Jackie97]

51. Okay, but just a few things.

"LGF is clearly bigoted and I think for people to act as though they're both as bad as each other is very misleading."

I didn't really mean to say that they're both just as bad. What I said was that some pro-Israelis might find EI to be just as offensive. To be honest, even I as a pro-Palestinian wanted to stay clear of it for a while just because of its name alone. It really freaked me out to see a name like that on a website at first.

"How folk choose to try to demonise EI is their problem and not that of EI who I expect wouldn't give a toss about whether any of those sort of people listen to them."

What's the purpose of EI? Isn't it to educate people on what's going on over there? There's a pro-Israeli in this thread who just disowned LGF. Don't you think that this person might be willing to listen to EI if it just had a different name? I've talked to pro-Israelis who specifically said that they do often criticize Israel, but yet they feel too uncomfortable with certain types of pro-Palestinians because of their hostility towards Israel. Websites with names like Electronic "Infidata" probably come off as hostile to them. From where they might have originally had been willing to listen to the website, they won't now. I guess I'm trying to say that not all pro-Israelis unconditionally support Israeli policy and that they're not all bigots. A lot of them might be more willing to listen if they didn't feel such hostility towards Israel (which they often mistake for hostility towards them because many of them are Jews).


"I think for anyone to say that EI is bigoted and anti-semitic is showing their inability to cope with anything that doesn't conform to their own beliefs, and their inability to understand bias."

Sometimes, I think that's true. Sometimes though, I think that what I've said above is the real problem. It's not that EI is bigoted, it's that too many pro-Israeli Jews are taking sites like that the wrong way because of the "hostile" wording. They think that people like that hate them. They've been hated for over two thousand years, and it's hard for them to trust people now when they harshly criticize Israel. A while back, I talked a Jew on the internet into being against the war in Iraq. He might have even gotten into activism; I'm not sure. However, he was thinking that perhaps he shouldn't be a part of the anti-war movement because of the "hostility" towards Israel. He was afraid to be a part of any of that mess until I talked to him about it. When you look at the fact that Jews all around the world are being beaten up and killed because of Israeli policy, this doesn't make things any better. This only INCREASES the belief that people who criticize Israel are anti-semitic. I think that if we want to get pro-Israelis to consider our side, that maybe we need a gentler approach. They're just not listening to the current approaches.

"EI is biased, not bigoted, and as far as sources of info goes, it's probably more correct to put it on a level with that Israel-US.org site rather than to hate-filled garbage like Little Green Footballs..."

I used to run away from Israel-US.org too. LOL.