Israel, not Hizbullah, is putting civilians in danger on both sides of the

[mom cat]

border.

Israel, not Hizbullah, is putting civilians in danger on both sides of the border

By Jonathan Cook in Nazareth

08/03/06

Snip_


Explaining the findings of its latest report, HRW’s executive director, Kenneth Roth, blames Israel for targeting civilians indiscriminately in Lebanon. “The pattern of attacks shows the Israeli military’s disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians. Our research shows that Israel’s claim that Hezbollah fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel’s indiscriminate warfare.”

HRW has analysed the casualty figures from two dozen Israeli air strikes and found that more than 40 per cent of the dead are children: 63 out of 153 fatalities. Conservatively, HRW puts the civilian death toll so far at over 500. Lebanese hospital records suggest the figure is now well over 750, with potentially many more bodies yet to be excavated from the rubble of buildings obliterated by Israeli attacks.

Giving the lie to the “human shields” theory, HRW says its researchers “found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.”

In fact, of the 24 incidents they document, HRW researchers could find no evidence that Hizbullah was operating in or near the areas that were attacked by the Israeli air force. Roth states: “The image that Israel has promoted of such shielding as the cause of so high a civilian death toll is wrong. In the many cases of civilian deaths examined by Human Rights Watch, the location of Hezbollah troops and arms had nothing to do with the deaths because there was no Hezbollah around.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14349.htm

[BillZBubb]

1. Israel has always targeted civilians.

They have all their standard excuses on hand. Nobody buys them any more except the Bushbots and Israeli fanatics. The facts show exactly what they are up to.

From it's inception, killing civilians was part of the Israeli war strategy.

[ThomCat]

2. Exactly. You don't kill that many civilians accidentally.

You don't destroy civilian infrastructure that thoroughly unless you deliberately targetted it with waves of successive deliberate bombings.

[furman]

8. Hezbollah uses civilians as shields

Please stop with the accusations that Israel "always targets civilians".

(edited title).

[Jim__]

9. Giving the lie to the “human shields” theory, ...

... HRW says its researchers “found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.”

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. When is HRW filing at the Hague

Either this will stand in a court of law, or it is an empty charge?

So when are they filing?

If they cannot prove this in a court of law, then they are helping those who ARE using human shields.

[Jim__]

12. Speaking of those who are using human shields, from the same article ...

“The Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert embeds his soldiers in Israeli communities, next to schools, beside hospitals, close to welfare centres, ensuring that any Israeli target is also a civilian target. ..."

But, of course, all charges against Israel must first be proved in an international court before they can be mentioned. Meanwhile Israel is free to claim that it is slaughtering Lebanese civilians due to similar "unproved" charges against Hezbollah.

HRW is an uninterested party. I take their word about who is doing what far more seriously than I take the word of Israel or Hezbollah.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. When is HRW filing?

you have yet to answer that question. If Israel is doing this... mind you all I have seen are military vehicles best case on the edges of civilian communities, and Patriot Batteries, for which a weak defense can be made for being purely defensive, on the edges of towns. That said, they are a valid target. So WHEN is HRW filing? I want them to file and I want this to be examined by the courts and those responsible to be smacked? I am getting tired of charges that strangely are never filed (by the by, the Lebanese Government has filed and my prediction on that one, when all is said and done, BOTH sides will be severely spanked by findings, but not for what you think)

[Jim__]

17. When is Israel filing?

Doesn't it need to prove its case in an international court to justify the slaughter of Lebanese civilians? Or is it ok for Israel to slaughter civilians based on nothing but its own word; but no one else can even speak against Israel without first proving the charge in an international court of law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. On the flipside it is ok for subnatioanl organization

to launch missiles at Isreal since 2000 and Israel has to take it like a man right?

Israel does not have to file, since under International Law, Hisbollah has been engaged in violating its territory since 2000... sorry thanks for playing.

Now that does not mean that Isreal is a saint... but those who choose to forget why this is happening, by choice, are also enabling the conflict

Media war,

Hisbolla 10

IDF best case 1

[Jim__]

25. How many Israeli civilians were killed by Hezbollah rockets in the year

prior to Israel launching bombing raids against Lebanon and slaughtering innocent civilians?

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. do your own research, but many of those were

also innocent civilians. You know here is the problem, the Israelis are not less culpable in this than Hisbollah... both are... so stop pretending ok.

Again, you are telling me that any state has to take attacks inside its borders? is this what you are telling me? How long or how many people do you have to loose before defending YOUR people is allowed?

What you are seeing in S. Lebanon is an extension of what has happened in the ME since time immemorial. You are also seeing the true face of war... congratulations. Dead is dead, whether it is Kiryat Shmona or Beirut.

But by the logic you are using the Israelis should just take it like a man and NEVER respond these attacks.

[breakaleg]

31. you won't quote numbers because they aren't in Israel's favor ...

that's where the whole 'we have a right to defend ourselves' line comes in. When they can't win on the face of the argument.

The fact is, far more Lebanese and Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel. There is no way to defend it, so Israel doesn't. Instead they launch a propoganda, I mean PR campaign to deflect from the sugject.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I quoted them yesterday

and I am tired of the double standard

It is not that they are in Israel's favor, whatever that means... just that as usual, not that people will admit it... the Jewish state really, under the surface, in the view of many, should just go away... that way the middle est all of a sudden would go back to a mythical state of peace. (Never mind this is not the case). This is what is truly under these statements

Favor my ass.. most nations are not subjected to "this standards." As I said how many people have to die before the world agrees you can go ahead and defend your people?

reality is in war young people die, I can't change that, why war is hell

IN war civilians die, there are some things, limited as they may be, that can be done but for the most part they die... war is hell

Oh and war is NOT a morality play either... stick to hollywood if you think so... it is the most amoral act any national actor or in this case a subnational actor, can get involved in...

[breakaleg]

39. and you just did what pro-Israelis always do - change the subject.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. No I did not

I pointed a fact, and the fact is that insofar as left wing antisemitism is concerned, the disolution of Isreal is seen as an ultimate goal. Whether this is conscious or not is besides the point, but I will ask again, how many dead justify taking action? One, five, tweenty, the whole state?

[breakaleg]

46. Israel is free to respond in a proportional sense.

One soldier is shot, often while on occupied land, but a legal resistance, and they respond by shooting rockets off of helicopters and flattening buildings, killing 10 times as many civilians.

You pointed out these "facts" because while Israel feels it's ok to value 1 Israeli to about 20 Muslims, the world does not.

And since we are talking about facts, and the underlying cause of the fighting, then the illegal settlements in Gaza and the West Bank are the underlying cause of this conflict.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. I will not deny that the settlemenst are a problem

in fact I have my own solution to the mid east crisis one that will be hard to implement and here it is

Jerusalem, as was originally contemplated by the partition document, must become an independent city, an open city to the world. The best both can hope is for shared management and maybe in the future shared capital... for the moment Jerusalem has to be an International open city.

A truth and reconsolidation commission where BOTH sides will come and speak of the horrors they have done to the other. Neither is a saint, but until both acknowledge the other as real and the pain as real, forget it.

I'd even go so far as to have student exchanges with Israeli kids attending Amman University and Palestinian and Arab Kids attending Rambam. In fact, that is where I would start... I would open some spots for Palestinian kids to attend Rambam Medical School, which will increase the contact to contact and also increase commercial contacts on both sides of the border.

Disarming of ALL militias in the area... this includes settlers by the way.

Now this one includes us... the world, yes the world needs to stop enabling the conflict. This means Syria, Iran, the US, the UK et al... must refuse to sell weapons to all parties in the area. Don't hold your breath on this one.. after all how much have we just approved for SA, Bahrain and others? We have become the USSR in its last days of glory selling gear to whoever will pay, and incidentally laying out the ground work for the next war.




That said... since we are talking abuot facts, I served as a RED CROSS medic for ten years and I will tell you one lesson from that service... proportionality is a nice myth that applies to conventional warfare, not this.

[breakaleg]

64. until proportionality does apply to this conflict then international

support will not be on Israel's side. Proportionality is the standard to which the international community does hold Israel. That's our standard.

And if they want our support, they will comply. If they don't, then they won't get it. Frankly, I don't think Israel cares one way or another if they get that support or not. And that is probably the reason for their choice to ignore all international standards.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Proportionality against those who practice

asymetrical warfare is a nice fiction

[Jim__]

43. The last I heard, the number is 0.

And, no, I'm not saying Israel cannot respond; and your claim is specious. However, international law requires that the response be proportional and not target civilians nor civilian infrastructure. Israel responded by attacking both civilians and civilian infrastructure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. The last I heard is more than zero

hell I even posted one case yesterday from 2003 as well as the link to a site that has kept track of all attacks since 2000... so how many do they have to kill? Answer the damn question.

Also under international law any road used to roll military gear looses neutrality, any airport uses this way looses neutrality (Both the interstate system and Honolulu Airoort are valid targets by the way for these reasons) as to proportionality... I guess the only thing acceptable to the world community and arm chair critiques is truly for the source of the problem to go away... lets be honest, Israel in the eyes of many should go away. That would be proportional for many.. not you necessirly, but for many.

[Jim__]

65. I asked about the last year, so your case from 2003 is irrelevant

to the question that was asked.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Go look for info yourself, it is on the web

I gave the time line... how many people have to die for a nation to be able to practice self defense? You have YET to naswer that question... and the time line for this STARTED in 2000, not last year... thanks for playing my ingnore list is growing

[Jim__]

68. You can ignore the whole world - it doesn't change reality.

[mom cat]

16. Their report is heavilly documented and quite chilling.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. So was the report on Jennin

and I KNOW how that one ended.

[mom cat]

15. And they document instances of attacks where Hezbolla was not even around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. When is HRW filing at the Hague

Anytime soon?

I still remember Jennin, where they wrote this long report... and when the ICRC went on the ground they found the story was closer to what the IDF was reporting, to the point they severely smacked the Palestinian Red Cross for transporting fighters. (They did also smack the IDF but not for the reasons HRW was claiming, far from it, and they NEVER found evidence of actual war crimes. Why? those are very hard to prove) So when is HRW filing?

Just a point, I do follow these things out of more than just morbid interest.

[dogday]

24. Since the majority of damage has been by bombs

I fail to see where a human shield is going to help anyone when a freaking bomb drops on their head? Did I miss something?

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. The logic of using human Shields is this

regardless of who uses them...

If the mission and targeting officer finds out there are civvies in the area they will refrain from shooting. Either way, those who use shields benefit.

1.- Either you refuse to hit the target

2.- When you hit it we will bring the media in

It is an extremely cynical use, regardless of WHO does it

[dogday]

30. Absolutely and apparently has had

little effect when using it, as evidenced by the number of civilians killed....

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. On the contrary

read the title of this... thread

In the propaganda war it is worth its weight in gold.

Look at it this way... Qanna... word opinion is incensed, have you read any similar fury over the fact that the IDF found a hospital where apparently they treat bullets and not patients? (Baalbeck Raid...)

If world opinion was anywhere close to fair you would see many an editorial pointing out how the storing of weapons in a hospital is a violation and in this case, a clear war crime... one of the few that is easy to prove.

[dogday]

37. But in real life, there are people who are dead

and that is the bottom line.. Whether this has propaganda value or not, people are dying...

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Yes but the reality is that in war

propaganda and the media are a front. Israel is loosing horribly, and Hisbollah is willing to put people at risk, unnecessarily, due to that propaganda value. Here is the tragedy lies.

I wish we could just take regular troops, hell their leaders, on both sides and have them go at it... but reality is in war people die. That is the reality... and you cannot change that by much... nor is it moral, for there is morality in war.

But using human shields puts them at an increased risk.

[dogday]

40. I don't see it as a side vs side issue and that

is why I don't discuss that part of the equation....

The only sides I see is nobody wins and everyone loses... That simple...


My interest is in the deaths of the people who are in the way of these so called sides, and when will it stop?

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. When we reach kumbaya

utopia, not any time soon... as a Red Cross worker I had to step in the middle of some of these messes... and learned that sadly, I fear, war will not really end.. just change its nature.

Chimps go to war... and so do we.

[dogday]

45. As a Mom of a soldier in Iraq

I am against all wars and the deaths of innocents who have nothing to do with the decisions being made by those who are in power.. We are all fodder for them and that is what I am truly offended by..

When you have your only Son in a war, it changes you.. I am not looking for kumbaya, just some decent freaking human beings who will realize that after all the fighting and death, they will still be where they are, like before, nothing changed but the deaths of many people, just like you and me....

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I sent a husband to war

so I know... been there myself, that changes you as well... and the sad lesson is that the leaders will take their countries to war every time... unfortunately there are very few wars that should be fought (and Iraq does not fall on this category, and the jury, at least in my view, is still out for Southern lebanon.. depends on what else they find that justifies it, at least to the minimal level of International Law) but the warrs that need to be fought, and are NOT wars of choice are few and far between.

[chibi]

3. and putting them in the MORGUE at far greater numbers

good thing i read orwell and recognize newspeak when i see it all over the M$M these days.

[mom cat]

19. Welcome to DU chibi. Your appreciation of Orwell will be welcome here.

:hi:

[chibi]

26. thank you mom cat

:hi:

[bridgit]

4. i'm growing weary of the juxtaposition of Israel's notion of living...

'under duress' as she prepares for as peaceful a sabbath as she is able, which is substantial and completely out of proportion when compared to the hell & death she exports to others in the region

[manic expression]

53. From what I've heard

it's 16 times more dangerous to live in Baltimore than in Tel Aviv. It's just delusional BS that makes Israelis think that way.

And yes, they export unending injustice and disgusting murder to entire nations and peoples.

[jonnyblitz]

5. Or course they are. they are fanatics. nt

[EFerrari]

6. Washington DC: White House Vigil To Protest Lebanon Invasion,

Washington DC: White House Vigil To Protest Lebanon Invasion, Commemorate Qana Massacre-Sunday, August 6, 8-10 p.m.

Friday August 04 2006 11:22:55 AM BDT

CAIR

DC: WHITE HOUSE VIGIL TO PROTEST LEBANON INVASION, COMMEMORATE QANA MASSACRE - TOP

The Lebanese American Community of the Washington Metropolitan Area, in association with Arab-American associations and human rights activists, is organizing a Silent Vigil in protest of the invasion of Lebanon and in commemoration of the Qana massacre, one week after.

WHEN: Sunday, August 6, 8-10 p.m.
WHERE: We will meet in Farragut Square Park at K Street and Connecticut Ave, N.W., across the street from Farragut North Metro Station. At sunset, we will walk as a group to the White House with lighted candles, where the vigil will end at 10 p.m.

The purpose of the vigil is:

* To demand an immediate ceasefire in Lebanon
* To mourn and express outrage at the loss of innocent civilian lives in Lebanon
* To condemn the internal displacement of one-third of the population of Lebanon
* To deplore the systematic destruction of the country

http://www.bangladesh-web.com/news/view.php?hidDate=2006-08-04&hidType=INE&hidRecord=0000000000000000121014

:hi:

[mom cat]

28. Could you also make a separate post. It needs to be seen!

Thanks :hug:

[EFerrari]

32. Okay. I don't have much focus to mind the thread but can

put it up there!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. I don't see how you can justify "not Hezbollah".

I agree that Israel is putting civilians in danger, but I don't see how one could argue that Hezbollah isn't. There can be few clearer ways of putting a civilian in danger than firing a missile at them, which is what Hezbollah is doing on a regular basis (although not with such frequency or effectiveness as Israel is).

While condemning Israel, it is important not to forget the fact that the reason Hezbollah hasn't killed as many civilians as the IDF have is because they're not as good at it, not because they aren't even more unpleasant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. This happpens every mid eastern war

Israel is donig this, doing that... but when filed with PROPPER authorities and researched by investigators in the field, we have yet to see this stand in a court of law.

Are Isrealis saints? No, but those who choose to forget why we are here are just as guilty of enabling the conflict as those who accuse "Israeli enablers"

[atreides1]

22. Records please

What has been filed with PROPER authorities and when? Who were the investigators in the field? And to whose court was this presented?

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Google jennin

and then google IRCR and Jennin, I am not going to do your research for you

[breakaleg]

34. What "Proper authorities" are you referring to?

What authority OUTSIDE Israel, does Israel respond to or respect? If they ignore the UN and all Human Rights groups, then name which ones they do listen to?

Israel answers only to Israel. Didn't you notice how quickly and easily they managed to get themselves out of the Qana Massacre? Oops was about all they said. Oh and 'they were defending themselves' from an attack DAYS before that came from that area?

There actions are so indefensible, I am constantly surprised that they have any supporters willing to fight for their cause.

I realize they control the press inside Israel and in the US, but surely beyond those two self-serving countries, people will see the truth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. ICRC and the Hague

they both have a looksie at jennin, hell Israel asked them in... but I am sure you knew this

[Spazito]

49. Sabra and Shatila

Clear and convincing evidence, but I am sure you know this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Actually not as clear as you think

Isreal was charged for not stopping the militias, but there was no clear evidence that the IDF knew of this. Once it started they should have stopped it... so it was far more dereliction of duty as an occupying power, but I am sure you also knew this.

That said, those who ordered it, and those who stood by (sharon and the head of the Christian Druze militia) should have faced the music and they never really did.

If you beleive in hell, they will face the music in a different way.

[Spazito]

51. Gosh, now why am I NOT surprised you would respond this way

I know you feel no fault should ever be found when it comes to Israel's actions but I suspect it is becoming increasingly harder to hold that belief as the days go on and the dead continue to pile up and Israel's excuses continue to change and become less and less credible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. What the hell are you talking about

Sharon SHOULD HAVE FACED THE MUSIC for letting his military stand iddly by

The Druze leader who gave the direct order who got his people in there should have faced the music for ORDERING IT... what the fuck are you talking about not taking responsibility?

By the by BOTH are war crimes, but I am sure you knew that.

If you choose to read the, they should have faced the music and those were the final findings as implied consent that is your problem not mine, and the way you choose to read not mine.

[manic expression]

55. Likewise

Israel LET THE PHALANGISTS IN. What do you think was the aim of doing this? Israel is 100% guilty of what happened along with the militias which carried it out.

So if someone cuts off an area where someone is, gets someone else to go in and kill them, they aren't guilty? Get a grip. The blame is squarely with Israel and their cronies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Read bellow what I wrote

I have yet to excuse either, if in your eyes I have, so sorry

[manic expression]

59. I did

and you refuse to recognize that Israel was the main reason for what happened.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. So did the ICRC then

good bye, ignore

[manic expression]

54. You have bought the unbelievable

Israel knew what was happening, they encircled the area and let the Phalangists in. They WANTED that to happen, that much is clear.

Israel's lies change nothing, and the fact that you inexplicably believe them changes nothing as well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. It is not Israel I believe

the ICRC, which recommended charges be filed against Ariel Sharon for dereliction of duty as an occupying power, and the leader of the Phallangist for actually ordering it... the list includes others... but this is not the IDF... why do you think neither of those two people traveled much out of their respective countries for a while, and Sharon only under the cover of diplomatic immunity? Can you say war crimes have no statue of limitations.

[manic expression]

58. That was their story

"Dereliction of duty" doesn't even begin to describe the crimes Israel is guilty of. They made it happen.

And yes, many Israeli generals can't travel to many countries because they'll be rightfully arrested and charged. The jackbooted thugs can, however, go to the US, their partners in ethnic cleansing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. As I said, that was not their story

you have no idea the reaction of that judgement in Tel Aviv. But if you choose to believe this, so be it. We have nothing left to say to each other on this subject or any other I suspect.

[manic expression]

62. Are you kidding me?

Israel made it happen, the ruling didn't recognize this fact. Be ignorant to it as much as you want, you change nothing.

[lastliberalintexas]

13. They both are

I'm amazed the author could write with a straight face. The current Israeli and Hezbollah leadership are nuts who are killing innocents on all sides. Israel is killing far more people and acting just as crazy as Nasrallah, but both sides are doing this.

Which is why Nasrallah and Olmert should be locked in a room and forced to go mano a mano, rather than indiscriminately killing civilians on all sides.

[Snivi Yllom]

63. Video here of Katyusha's fired from apartment buildings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyHQFyO_fu4

[Igel]

69. People argue from silence.

It's a difficult argument to make stick.

No evidence is that: no evidence. How many reasons for 'no evidence' can you come up with--feel free to include as many scenarios in which there was Hezb operations in the area.

The easiest is "no Hezb operations".

Other easy ones are "no access" or "insufficient access", "operations ceased", "evidence removed". More are certainly possible.