I have never understand about the Israel/Palistine

[koopie57]

conflict. It seems like you live here, we'll live there and we'll work out an arrangement to share the water. And it always seemed to me that Israel was the aggressor yet we in the US seem to support Israel.

Is there a simple way to at least begin learning out about the history and the purpose of the conflict? And is not Israel a great deal more powerful militarily?

I don't want to cause a fight or anything cuz I know sometimes an innocent questions does produce such results, but am at a total loss and everything I read seems to assume I have some knowledge about the details leading up to this.

One of the reasons I ask is yesterday Ed Schultz said he though Israel just wanted to be left alone, yet Randy Rhodes said last night she thought Palistine? Lebenon? just wanted to be left alone which is what I sort of thought. Why would the least powerful keep poking a sharp stick at the underbelly of the stronger power?

Well, just asking k?

[ChuckyDee]

1. my suggestion

Order the "Case for Israel" by Dershowitz. It's so factually accurate that he challenged all anti- Israel people to find errors that would result in him paying out $10,000 for each error. Suffice it to say, factual errors that expose Dershowitz propagandizing for Israel have never been brought to light and Dershowitz has never had to pay out even one check for $10,000.

It'll open your eyes.

Thank me later.

ps
You'll never find Chomsky, Ed Said, or any Israel bashers making such claims for their own books that tell of the story between Israel and Palestinians. It's because they don't have any credibility at all.

[ixion]

3. Chomsky has no credibility? uh, yeah, riiiiight.

oh please. :eyes:


Chomsky is a respected scholar. Dershowitz is a hack, and a shark, and supports the neo-con cause.

[acmejack]

5. Love these low post count no profile people!

Ever helpful, always full of it, too...

Seriously Koopie, here is the Al Nakba

[serryjw]

29. I don't respond to anyone that has a low post count

and no profile..they won't be here long.

[ChuckyDee]

30. Rrrrrright.....

When you have an intelligent response - you'll respond, whenever that is. I won't hold my breath waiting.

Meanwhile, those suffering at the hands of Israelis can REALLY use $10,000 a crack if you can expose some of Dershowitz's errors from the CASE FOR ISRAEL. If you really cared about them, you'd dig up those errors, now wouldn't you?


As for Chomsky and Israel, the facts speak for themselves.

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/100chomskylies.pdf

I'm truly sorry this is all such a shock to you. I hope you do the right thing with this new information.

[ChuckyDee]

6. chomsky will just take you further away from the truth

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/100chomskylies.pdf

Go to page 20 for his lies about Israel and proof of it. Why hasn't Chomsky offered $10,000 for each error he makes in his propaganda? Answer: He'd have been broke 35 years ago if he had. And many more times following. Chomsky was discredited LONG ago by scholars worth their salt.

[ChuckyDee]

11. oh, by the way....

I would think that pro-Chomsky people would chomp at the bit to expose Dershowitz and collect on that $10,000 challenge for each and every error he makes.

Got any dirt worth mentioning?

I'll wait but I won't hold my breath.

Thanks.

[ixion]

15. and I'll bet those 'worth their salt' also believe that

-- Intelligent Design is a credible scientific theory
and
-- Global Warming doesn't exist.

right? :rofl:

Really, though, I've been reading Chomsky for years. He is respected as an intellect and scholar the world over. I know not of these people of which you speak.

[ChuckyDee]

17. look at the link

of Chomsky's top 100 lies. If that's not enough to discredit the man for all eternity, nothing is - and I pity the fact that people are brainwashed into believing this huckster.

[Poll_Blind]

25. It gets better, see his reply #16: He equates Chomsky with Bin Laden.

Is there a cover charge for this comedy act?

PB

[Solo_in_MD]

42. Neither rate all that high in my book

They are both book pushers with limited value outside of academia

[acmejack]

4. Google "Al Nakba" which took place in 1948

Perhaps you will understand why these tensions exist. The Palestinians didn't suddenly decide to hate the Israelis!

By all means read Dershowitz for a fair balanced look at the ME! Anyone who suggests anything balanced, such as both sides might share some of the blame in the situation there are automatically labeled "anti-semites". The generational hatreds and the apologists for both sides of the argument make it incredibly difficult to sort out. You will have lots of folks come forth and offer to help you see the light for their particular interest, though.

Good luck in making sense out of it. , you will see no one has clean hands. Do study things like the Irgun and the Al Nakba in 1948. Perhaps you will see why some of this hate exists.

[rockymountaindem]

7. While you're at it, look up the Hebron Massacre of 1929

Wait, I'll save you the trouble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riots_in_Palestine_of_1929

Yeah, everything was nice and peaceful until those Israelis up and attacked the peaceful Arabs :sarcasm:

[acmejack]

13. If you read the whole statement you would notice I said

"both sides might share some of the blame", Would you like me to repeat that for you? "Both sides might share some of the blame"! We have that straight now?

Death marches of women, children and the old are fairly hard to defend irregardless are they not? Doesn't really matter who directs them, they are evil, trail of tears-evil! Bataan-evil! Perhaps the rules of good and evil are different in the Middle East, there certainly are those that would have us believe that they are.

[cali]

27. Yeah, you gave a cursory

nod to "both sides might share some blame", and proceeded to recommend that the OP learn about the Nabka and the Irgun- nothing else. That's not a very balanced recommendation. As for your assertion that, "Anyone who suggests anything balanced, such as both sides might share some of the blame in the situation there are automatically labeled "anti-semites", baloney, particularly on DU. I see the "I'm going to called an anti-semite line being tossed out pre-emptively, far more often in these threads than I see anyone actually calling another poster an anti-semite.


And for the OP, start where you are. In this case, that's the internet. Wikipedia has basic information. Lot's of other sites do too. You can look at I/P affairs from varying perspectives.

[acmejack]

38. I beg your forgiveness since I didn't bash the Arabs enough to suit you!

I felt positive you and the usual crowd would ensure that Israel's interests were amply spoken for and I see I was correct. And I was also correct in assuming that anyone who dared speak for the other side would be attacked, I strove for balance and if it wasn't good enough for you, I guess that is just too damned bad.

[cali]

40. balderdash, codswallop and utterly

disingenuous. I have never bashed Arabs or Palestinians. I suggest you stop putting words in my mouth. It's a disgusting thing to do. I have repeatedly harshly condemned Israel for its inexcusable actions, and haven't minced words about it. There actions in Gaza are collective punishment of a civilian population. The incursion into Lebanon is both stupid and brutal. To suggest that I'm the one being one sided because I (gasp) also condemn H'zbollah, is unsupportable. Why you might even look upthread and see what I had to say to Chuckie. Not to mention my having told him to fuck off for calling Palestinians a revolting name in another thread. I'm hardly an apologist for Israel- or for H'zbollah. As for the endlessly whiny crap about how people who support the Palestinians being attacked; pffft. It's the Manichean viewpoint that I have nothing but contempt for- whichever side it comes from.

[ChuckyDee]

22. Nice link

God forbid that Jews lived in Palestine before 1948 among the Arabs. Guess it should have been Judenrein, huh?

This should dispel all myths about Israel starting the hostilities by claiming the state in 1948.

[acmejack]

36. I don't converse with fucking idiots or provocateurs

one or both of which you obviously are. Enjoy your stay and may it be brief.

[ChuckyDee]

37. Why not discuss the facts?

If you want to claim al-Nakba is at the root of today's problems, common decency would have you also trying to explain the Hebron Massacre which preceded 1948 by almost 20 years.

If you don't like the truth, that's not our fault.

[Poll_Blind]

9. Dershowitz: Pro-torture, Arlen Specter supporter. Surprising suggestion.

:shrug:

PB

[ChuckyDee]

12. that's okay....

I'll wait for you too.....to show me even ONE error in Dershowitz' book that would motivate you to collect $10,000 for the Palestinian cause.

Prove to us that Dershowitz' book is nothing but a discredited rag.

Or don't.

[Poll_Blind]

14. Just pointing out your unusual suggestion for a Democratic forum.

PB

[ChuckyDee]

18. how is it unusual?

Dershowitz is liberal democrat. Since when is citing him unusal in a democratic forum?

[Poll_Blind]

10. Watch Norman Finkelstein debate Alan Dershowitz (from DemocracyNow)

  Much thanks to the wonderful people at DemocracyNow and especially Amy Goodman who hosts all sorts of unique debates you won't see anywhere else.

Part 1

Part 2

Peace, Shalom, Salaam Aleikum,

PB

[ChuckyDee]

16. and google Finkelstein after you read that....

Finkelstein has even less credibility than Chomsky....and that's saying a lot. No one but far left loons who have no regard for scholarship read Finkelstein. Oh yeah, them and far right fascists like David Duke. And Ahmadinejad, Bin Laden.

Enjoy. OR not.

[Poll_Blind]

23. You're openly equating Finkelstein, Chomsky with David Dude, Bin Laden?

:rofl:

Two words: Seek help.

PB

[ChuckyDee]

28. No...but I think your reading comprehension shows why UR confused

The trouble with many on the far left or far right today is that they are both united in their fanatical hatred of Israel and even the US. In this regard, Chomsky appeals to both the far left as well as David Duke and Bin Laden, since they just eat up his anti-Jewish screeds.

[cali]

31. Not true

Raul Hilberg, the Dean of Holocaust studies, supports quite a bit of what Finklestein has to say.

[joshcryer]

43. Well those interviews were complete garbage...

...

[cali]

20. Oh I really wish

you'd just go away. Recommending a totally one sided book is not helpful.

[ChuckyDee]

24. I bet you wish...

...that I'd go away.

If Dershowitz' book is so 1-sided, then kindly expose it to the tune of $10,000 each error, so that with the proceeds, you'd be able to help all the people Israel "oppresses" on a daily basis.

Expose Dershowitz, why don't you?

[drm604]

33. I haven't read the book but this $10,000 nonsense doesn't prove anything.

I can't make any judgment on the book, I haven't read it. But the $10,000 nonsense doesn't prove anything. It may be that every one of his facts are correct, I don't know. But even if they are, facts and conclusions are two different things. People can agree on the facts but reach totally different conclusions based on them. Not only that, there may be relevant facts that he's leaving out; is he offering a reward for that? And it may be that the facts he states are technically correct but misleading. Has he specified an objective third party to judge whether or not someone deserves the $10,000?

I have to wonder why he feels the need to make such an offer. If his facts and conclusions are correct then they should stand on their own and not require a defense like "why hasn't anyone collected the $10,000."

[ChuckyDee]

35. Here's why he offers $10,000

Read page 20 on Chomsky's lies regarding Israel.

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/100chomskylies.pdf

You see, THAT is the type of lying propaganda that has absolutely no scholarly merit.

Dershowitz claims to tell it like it is - and backs it up with the $10,000 challenge. Unlike Chomsky, who obviously would NEVER make such a bold claim, knowing he'd go bankrupt within 24 hours.

Oh yeah - Dershowitz actually quotes his sources, providing all citations. Chomsky makes up his own sources - concocting them out of thin air. You may as well be reading the Protocols of Zion.

[drm604]

41. I'm not familiar with Chomsky

but perhaps he doesn't make such a claim because he's a scholar and feels that such theatrics are beneath him. Or perhaps he simply realizes that he's human and therefore prone to error like the rest of us. Maybe Dershowitz could use a dose of humility. I'm sorry but to me such challenges say more about the author than they say about the book.

If you want to convince us of something then give us some facts and back them up. Don't just say "this author says so and nobody's taken up his challenge therefore he's 100% absolutely correct". That's just a cheap way of avoiding argument and proves nothing.

Also, you seem to be presenting a false dichotomy here: either we believe Dershowitz or we believe Chomsky. Isn't it possible that they are both mistaken? If we're discussing the reliability of Dershowitz, what does Chomsky have to do with it?

[joshcryer]

45. The problem is, any "facts" can back up a "moral" argument.

And that is, essentially, what I think his book is about. Consider the "facts" of certain numbers of deaths. We can chose to represent those deaths any way we want. Consider his counting as deaths the "near deaths" of Israeli's who "would've" died had they not gotten serious medical treatment. It's all in how one looks at it, and the facts support both sides.

[cool user name]

44. Norman Finkelstein has exposed Dershowitz ...

... for the fraud that he is. He doesn't even have original ideas. He had to "lift" them from Joan Peters, who was exposed as a fraud back in the 1980s.

Don't take ChuckDees' suggestion.

[ixion]

2. it goes back centuries, but the modern manifestiation was largely

caused by Great Britain in their empire days. They created Israel right in the middle of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans ruled the area until 1917. The brits assumed control of the area in 1926.

[acmejack]

8. Are you familiar with the story of the "Catastrophe"

That is what "Al Nakba" translates to, I am told. Sandy Tolan's version in Tom Dispatch is very good:

snip>
The Arab-Israeli war of 1948, known in Israel as the War of Independence, is called al-Nakba or the Catastrophe by Palestinians. For generations of Americans raised on the heroic story of Israel's birth, especially as written by Leon Uris in Exodus, there is no place for al-Nakba. Yet this fundamental Palestinian wound, and the power of its memory today, cannot simply be wished away.

The obscure anniversary in question, July 11-15, is little known outside of Palestinian memory. Yet it helped forge the fury, militancy, and Palestinian longing for land in exile that helps drive the conflict today. In fact, it's not possible to understand today's firefights without first understanding the Nakba, and especially what transpired under the brutal sun just east of Tel Aviv in the midsummer of 1948.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=100409

The clip starts under the Subheading The Catastrophe

[ixion]

21. thanks very much for the info

I hadn't about 'Al Nakba', as such, but I'm clear on Great Britain's tactic of crippling an area by placing a 'crown-friendly' principality in a strategic location.

The same is true for Iraq. Kuwait was part of Iraq, but was created by GB around the same time as Israel, effectively hampering Iraq's access to the critical sea ports.

They did the same thing with Belize. Guatemala has never been able to recover.


The so-called "White Man's Burden", apparently, is to bring about the End of the World. :-(

[ChuckyDee]

26. If al-nakba drives the conflict that exists today....

...then kindly explain the Hebron massacre of 1929. What drove that 20 years before Israel even came into being?

Tell the whole story - save the propaganda.

[koopie57]

19. thanks everyone ..

[bobby911]

32. I've noticed

no one discredits him.

They dance around the issue.

If you're gonna call him a hack prove it and get $10,000 in the process

[ChuckyDee]

34. Right on.....should be an easy $10,000

If Dershowitz is a hack, prove it, grab the money - and start sending it to those most affected by Israel's atrocities.

Help is on the way, right?

[drm604]

46. As I said in my reply to ChuckyDee

facts and conclusions are two different things. Dershowitz may be 100% factually correct but reach different conclusions then someone else starting from the same facts. He may be technically correct but misleading. He may also leave out relevant facts. Omitted facts can be very important to an issue but as far as I can see they're not included in the challenge. The $10,000 challenge nonsense is a red-herring.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. It's a pity a troll derailed this thread...

I thought you asked a good question. A good starting point for reading about the conflict and its history is Avi Shlaim's 'The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World'. It gives a balanced account of things and he writes without all the propaganda, lack of balance, and ommission of facts that are all too common in a lot of writing about the conflict...

[Lithos]

47. Locking

I think the posts and posters have answered the question.

Sad.

Lithos
DU Moderator