Israel 'kills Lebanese civilians'

[malaise]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5182564.stm

<snip>
An Israeli air raid has killed at least 10 Lebanese civilians who were fleeing southern border areas, police say.

Many more were feared injured in the attack, which hit a van, they said.

The Israeli raids began on Wednesday after Hezbollah militants seized two Israeli soldiers. More than 60 Lebanese have been killed in the past four days.

Three Israeli sailors are missing after their ship was hit by a Hezbollah missile. The body of a fourth was found, according to Israeli media.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. It's no Fallujah.... yet. n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. the word is "murder"

Kill sun bathers in an effort to escalate the tensions
Hamas responds
Invade Gaza (which you have already fucked over with $$$ issues and tank shells)
Hezbollah responds
Invade Lebanon and murder civilians on a pretext, with several years of planning under your belt
Hezbollah responds with tinny tiny rockets
Destroy Beirut and attack northern Lebanon

And smile as George Bush eats pig with BBQ sauce.


bastards all.

[malaise]

7. Have you seen these articles

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10576

[ChairmanAgnostic]

20. thanks for the cite. Very informative. pity not everyone here

will read it.

[papau]

51. Who is the responder depends on your starting point - and the "sun bathers

were not an Israeli kill - appears they were making or found a bomb on the beach - which I agree is a bit beside the point given the other dead in Gaza that are people killed by Israeli fire.

But in the interests of accuracy - the beach deaths were not caused by Israel.

[MrPrax]

74. Yes they were...

and you have crossed the same line as any fanatic...

'The Berlin Wall was built NOT to keep people in, but to keep western spies out, so that's why we shoot them off the wall, comrade' and other such lame attempts to cover up cold bloodied murder.

Yeah yeah...good company you keep

[papau]

103. Sigh - your assertion does not make it fact - US sources say you are

wrong -

believe whatever you want

If calling those that say you have bad information "fanatic" is what you are all about, you may want to take a course or two in civil conversation = followed by a course in debate.

As for "good company you keep" - back atcha

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacebird]

4. a somewhat disproportional response to the postings on this thread....

:wtf:

not unlike the disproportional response of Israel to the kidnapping of a soldier - (which was rather a mild retort after all in response to the killing of a family at the beach....)

[cali]

6. It's unlikely it was a response

to the death of the family on the beach. It takes a good long time to dig a 300 yard tunnel. The attack on the Israeli soldiers was planned months ago.

[ChuckyDee]

9. not 300 yard tunnel....try 700 yards

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/26/world/main1749981.shtml

"The kidnapping is a major intelligence failure for the army, reports Berger. For weeks, the military had been warning that Palestinian militants were planning a major attack in the area. Yet militants were able to dig a 700-yard long tunnel right under the nose of Israeli troops, infiltrate a base and blow up a tank. Six of the eight attackers escaped. The army has launched an investigation."

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

12. Sorry, that's just

off the rails, and pretty repugnant. People are dying in Gaza and Lebanon because of actions Israel took. The Israelis are squarely to blame for the crisis civilians are suffering in Gaza and Lebanon. The Israelis weren't forced into responding so disproportionately. There's ground between do nothing and overkill.

As for the deaths on the beach; Israel is responsible. Firing at targets where you're aware that there are large numbers of innocents, is inexcusable.

And finally, I find your reference to "Arab psychopaths" more than a little disturbing.

[ChuckyDee]

38. people are not dying in Gaza because of Israel

Gaza has been Judenrein for nearly a year. It's been a year for those in Gaza to put that area together in order to be economically viable so that people could get on with their lives. That is not Israel's fault.

[malaise]

41. No water, no food, no electricity

capture their government because you don't approve of them and then blame them. Superb logic indeed.

[ChuckyDee]

62. please

Capture their government because Israel doesn't approve of it? How about the fact that hundreds of rockets have been launched from Gaza and no one there has the morals to even suggest that it stops?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

18. True, the israelis create enough crap on their own for us to

rely on questionable sources.
Like cutting off all power to 1.2 Gazans. Like hitting their water and fuel supplies. Like shooting unarmed school girls. Like arresting and imprisoning hundreds of men, women and children for no reason. Like bombing and strafing ambulances on the way to areas just shelled by Israeli tanks. Like shooting journalists brave enough to report on Israeli war crimes. Like so many other proven examples of their horrific behavior.

You are exactly right. There is no need to rely on questionable sources like the International Red Cross, the UN or US journalists.

[ChuckyDee]

40. yes, yes...

Israel can do nothing right.....and Jews just love instigating and provoking others to carry out more genocidal campaigns against them. It's what Jews do. They don't want peace, only war.

While Israel does screw up from time to time, it's not POLICY but rather, the exception to the rule - and these matters are SERIOUSLY considered and dealt with morally and ethically.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

54. I've been to Israel and found

the vast majority of the individuals to be nice, educated, and polite people. Unless they are the ultra-conservatives or are involved in politics. Then, all bets are off.

It is a complex region, it is a cauldron and it is the base for three of the world's religions (the reason I went there was partly for study of that) all of which have reasons to cooperate, yet most often fail to do so.

[ChuckyDee]

64. good post, i agree

Well written. I think the loonies on the right are less dangerous than the loonies on the left these days, but that's just me. Suffice it to say, I honestly don't think Israel has a choice but to go to war against Hamas and Hizbullah. They probably should have done this months or years ago.

[MrPrax]

75. Wrong board, dude...

I think the loonies on the right are less dangerous than the loonies on the left these days

If you think this, then maybe you should find somewhere else to post...DU tends to be for 'loonies on the left'...

But it's duly noted that most of the posters that support Israel here hate the Left, but nonetheless want the Left on a Leftwing forum to listen to their rightwing power raps...

[ChuckyDee]

80. umm....actually I'm on the right board

I'm a liberal, just not far, far left. But then again, maybe guys like Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman don't really belong on this forum either. In that case, in no way is this board representative of Democrats before 1970.

Anyway, the REASON I beleive the far left is more dangerous than the far right these days is simple. The far left isn't torn into by the media like the far right, and therefore their lunacy is more tolerated - and thus, more dangerous. Now - I'm only referring to foreign policy matters and national defense, but then again, without national defense - we're Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia in a few years. It's the most important issue bar none. And I'm sad to see my fellow liberals are on the wrong side of history.

[PA Democrat]

102. Nice sig line for a so-called "liberal"

You won't find many fans of Zell Miller here, but then you knew that didn't you?

Yeah right, you support a Bush-kissing turncoat, a Bush-campaigning nut job, you believe that there is a liberal bias in the media, you think the US is in danger of becoming an Afghanistan or a Saudi Arabia without a strong national defense and then call us "fellow liberals?


Oh stop it, you're killing me!

[papau]

104. the current version of Zell does not belong - but Joe does belong -but the

Judas Kiss by Joe reflects Joe's willingness to screw other Democrats, making Joe someone you'd vote for in the general if he wins the Democratic primary - but perhaps not someone you'd support in the primary. Zell is GOP these days, in my opinion.

On foreign policy matters and national defense I believe history shows the Democrats the better choice if you want to avoid turning the US into a clone of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.

I agree national defense is an extremely important issue - but it is behind protecting the Constitution and the freedom and liberty of the American lifestyle, IMHO.

Free Elections is also ahead of national defense, and indeed national defense must be limited to current real threats - and not include protecting us from all the potential risks in this world, else the cost will eat us alive and in effect destroy those freedoms that the defense is in theory supposed to be protecting - again IMHO.

[frankieT]

10. Jews are no better or worse than Arabs

Hizbullah attacking IDF is terrorism !
Israel bombing civilians is legitimate !
every time people took weapons to fight for some cause (righteous or not) they were labeled as terrorists by the might state they're fighting

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frankieT]

15. sure

Israel is the mightiest country in the region, they took territories from their neighbours and they can annihilate them anytime they want.
Israel being destroyed is pure fantasy. Palestine Lebanon Iraq being destroyed is reality.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. 'Israel has handled the toilet bugs in their midst with kid gloves'

Arabs are 'toilet bugs'? That's disgusting...

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Bullshit. At least have the honesty to admit what you meant...

Hamas and Hezbollah aren't in Israel's midst. Yr comment was disgusting and bigoted...

[ChuckyDee]

31. you don't want honesty

I know what I honestly think.....and I know many Arabs (and muslim non-arabs) who I'm friendly with - and respect.

However, it's easier for you to label me a hater so that you can ignore reality and go on living in your fantasy world in which Israel can do nothing right.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. It seems to be you who ignores reality...

Yr posts since you arrived at DU are full of stuff calling others haters, so this might be a case of putting the mirror down and stepping away very, very slowly. Seeing as how yr so big on bringing up genocide, I recently studied the biggest genocide of the 20th century, and I'll tell you why 'oh, I've got heaps of friends who are (insert name of ethnic/racial/religious group that's just been dehumanised) means bugger all. In Nazi Germany during the Holocaust, once Germans realised what was going on, Goebbel's office was deluged with letters from Germans pleading for their Jewish neighbours, workmates and friends to be spared, not coz of any concern for what was happening to the Jewish people, but because the Jews they knew apparently weren't evil like all the others were supposed to be....

As for some supposed fantasy world where Israel can do no right, only 24 hrs ago in this forum I posted my view that Israel was the victim of the Hezbollah attack and as any other state does, has a right to respond. As with every other state, that response must not violate international law, and my criticism is with how Israel has chosen to react, not that Israel has reacted...

[ChuckyDee]

44. reality

I'm sorry, but haters who want nothing more than to murder, rape, and pillage THOUSANDS of others intentionally - are not good people who can be dealt with civily - they suck (I call them toilet bugs and cockroaches). That is reality. And when no other nation steps up to really do anything about it, then Israel is left with no other choice really, other than to accept it and die or to step up and carry out justice.

War is hell and truly tragic. We should never have to go to war ideally - but let's at least admit that it's necessary at times. Also, Hamas was elected to run Gaza and Hizbullah was also elected in Lebanon - by people who KNOW what these genocidal psycopaths are all about. Not all Arabs of that region are to blame, but you can be CERTAIN they are ELATED that the Israelis are about to get rid of the scum making things hard on them. These are the people we should both be sympathetic to - the Arabs of that region who live intolerable lives under Hamas, the PA, and Hizbullah.

[bennywhale]

88. Cockroaches was the term used in Rwanda

repeatedly on radio and in Newspapers in advance of the frenzied genocide of almost a million people.

[ChuckyDee]

93. nice diversion

I see you completely ignored the content of that message to focus only on the people who should deservedly be termed or labeled as scum, like Arafat and his cronies, or Ahmadinejad and his groupies.

If you had your way, Saddam would still be murdering innocents by the thousands and you would do or say nothing to effectively end such a genocidal campaign.

I think that's pathetic.

[bennywhale]

98. Good accusations

"If you had your way, Saddam would still be murdering innocents by the thousands and you would do or say nothing to effectively end such a genocidal campaign."

I'm glad to see you're well versed on what i've been thinking and doing for the past 20 years. I hate Saddam Hussein. I hate anyone who shows contempt for human life.

You're emotional reaction highlights why you are using those de-humanising terms in the first place. it is because you can't think rationally or grasp complex concepts and situations, you just use terms like cockroaches, which is the start of something very dangerous. If the term cockroach is adopted to describe a group of people (eg Arafat and Cronies) its not long before the term can be applied to anyone who supports them (most of the Palestinians, and you know the rest.

this black and white view of the world you hold is all well and good for the playground, but is actually quite dangerous when applied to reality. Its a good job people like you hold no power in this world as it would be a much more dangerous place. But then i think you know that. You have unique access to the truth and those you constructively deem cockroaches will just have to bear your wrath. Nice one

Peace

[cali]

17. Toilet bugs?

Fuck you. I don't care that this will be deleted. You don't belong on this board. Go someplace else to dehumanize people.

[ChuckyDee]

21. please...

No, not all Arabs are toilet bugs - however, those in charge of Hamas and Hizbollah and participate actively with their genocidal campaign - are absolute toilet bugs.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Cali...

Will it ruin the moment if I give you a congratulatory slap on the back for saying exactly what I was thinking? :)

[cali]

29. Nope.

I may fight and snipe with you and others but I know that if you ran up against someone referring to Israelis as subhuman you wouldn't countenance that.

[ChuckyDee]

34. Cali and Violet....

What would you call people who are hell-bent on murdering, maiming, raping, and pillaging others - showing no pity to a certain group of people - whether infants or the elderly? If given the opportunity to kill thousands, they'd jump at the opportunity.

What would you call such people?

[MrPrax]

77. Americans? n/t

[bemildred]

79. Ariel Sharon is the first that comes to mind. nt

[ChuckyDee]

81. thank you for playing

If Americans and Ariel Sharon were like Hamas, Hizbullah, etc... the entire middle east would be one big, nuked parking lot, with a lot of oil fields here and there. Not a few civilian casualties here or there, but massacres by the thousands and millions - like in Saddam's Iraq or in Syria, Jordan, etc.

But thahks for playing.

[bemildred]

90. You equate Americans in general with an asshole like Sharon?

You have a lot of nerve.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

97. You don't know shit about me. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

42. True...

I haven't got any time for anyone who dehumanises Palestinians or Israelis or Jews or Muslims in this forum, and unfortunately some do occassionaly crawl out from under their rocks and leave their droppings here. What they don't seem to realise is that by having such a bigoted attitude towards one group of people, any claims by them that they're opposed to bigotry against whatever group it is that they are cheering for leaves them looking like the world's hugest hypocrites...

[ChairmanAgnostic]

19. how's your kool-aid?

on the rocks or straight up?

[ChuckyDee]

24. kool aid

If you can hook me up with a keg of straight up Koolaid, I'd appreciate it. It's difficult comprehending how people on this forum would advocate doing nothing to stop the homicidal maniacs in Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

25. to the contrary, the vast majority here

a) do NOT hate jews or their culture. TO the contrary, we simply dislike their govt. policies.
b) Cry out against Hamas attacks, hizbullah missiles and similar acts. Not only are they counter-productive, they cause death and destruction. You may have missed these comments, however.
c) are not anti-semites, but at the same time are not brain-washed by AIPAC propoganda. Most here call a spade a spade, a bully a bully and Israel's pretextual attacks and murder, pretextual attacks and murder.

[ChuckyDee]

30. thank you.....now let's talk

I have problems with Israeli policy too, but I'm not one to criticize EVERY single act they take to stop terrorism like many here. It's as though Israel can do NOTHING right other than to let Hamas, Hizbollah, etc.. kill them outright.

I challenge anyone here to FIRST and FOREMOST provide the name of just ONE other country in the world that would act with more restraint than Israel, considering the circumstances.

Critizing Israel is certainly not anti-semitic, however, critizing ONLY Israel in matters like these while NEVER condemning other nations who act FAR worse in response, is the CLASSIC definition of anti-semitism.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

33. Hell, that's easy. there are several just off the top of my head

India - with knowledge that pakistani agents were involved in the bombs that killed 119 this week.
Iraq - despite a horrific occupation by US forces, despite policies of torture, rape, murder and destruction of their country, most of them are NOT attacking US forces. But that may change.
Venezuela - we tried to fund a secret revolution from our embassy. We tried to destabilize Chavez repeatedly, just because he does not play by Big Oil rules. We have done much to harm that country, yet they show extreme restraint.
Cuba -

there are plenty more examples of extraordinary restraint.

[ChuckyDee]

35. well, you tried

I thank you for at least trying, but none of these countries have been under assault like Israel the past 40-60 years. I think it's amazing Israel has waited this long to finally get busy doing what they have to do with Hamas and Hizbullah.

None of your examples compare. Just look at the giving back of Gaza. What other nation would do something that suicidal? Do these other nations free terrorists by the thousands? Do they warn villagers in opposing territories shortly before bombings so that they can evacuate and be spared? I've never seen these other countries you mention get "even" by bombing empty buildings.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

43. India? Ever hear of Kashmir?

the GIVING BACK of Gaza? after they invaded it? and herded people out of their homes, off their land, bulldozing their olive fields and forcing them into a tiny strip of land? Are you serious?

[ChuckyDee]

46. history lesson 101

Israel offered both the Gaza and West Bank to Egypt and Jordan shortly after the '67 war. Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt when they could have kept it and profitted from the oil proceeds.

Gaza was invaded? When? Why? For no reason? After Oslo in '93 and for about 6-7 years up to 2002, no military was in Gaza. What are you talking about?

Herding people out of their homes? For what? Nothing?

Buldozing olive fields?

As for India and Kashmir, provide sources proving that anything - and I mean anything they have done is more restrained than what Israel does.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Where'd that version of history come from?

Israel offered both the Gaza and West Bank to Egypt and Jordan shortly after the '67 war.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to where we can get that particular history lesson from, have you? My understanding is that Israel's proposed peace agreement with Egypt after the 1967 war would have retained Gaza as Israeli territory. And while there was some support for a plan to give Jordan control of most of the West Bank, there was also support to keep the West Bank under Israeli control and give the Palestinians political autonomy....

[ChuckyDee]

55. here's a link

http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000412.htm

"Here again some basic history is relevant: in June 1967, when Israel was at war with Egypt and Syria, its government sent a message to Jordan's King Hussein telling him to stay out of the conflict; Israel had no desire to destabilise his kingdom. However, Hussein believed Egypt's (totally wrong) claims that its soldiers were winning, and he attacked. His forces were beaten and driven out of Jerusalem and the West Bank. Within days, Israel offered to return the newly conquered land in return for peace treaties: most of the West Bank to Jordan, the Golan Heights to Syria and Sinai to Egypt. However, in August/September 1967 the Khartoum conference of Arab leaders issued three no's: "no peace, no recognition, no negotiations."

http://www.think-israel.org/meir-levi.settlements.html

Moreover, immediately after the war, Israel offered to return conquered territory in exchange for peace. The Arab nations rejected this offer. Israel could legally have annexed the newly won territories, but chose not to because it expected that eventually the aggressor nations would come to their senses and want their land back, and Israel would return some of these territories to their former occupiers in exchange for peace. Israel did this with Egypt, returning all of Sinai at the Camp David I accords in 1979. Anwar es-Sadat refused to accept the Gaza Strip back, preferring that its Palestinians remain under Israeli sovereignty. When Jordan agreed to a peace treaty in 1994, King Hussein specifically excluded the West Bank from consideration, because by then 96% of Palestinians in the area were under the rule of the Palestinian Authority, and Hussein conceded that he had no legal claim to the area or its Arab population.

[TomClash]

60. That's pretty funny

First, Hussein was a reluctant participant in the '67 War. Second, one wonders why Israel did not withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza after Resolutions 242 and 338 were passed in November if it was so eager to return the land. In fact, days after the '67 War concluded, East Jerusalem and the surrounding areas were de facto annexed.

Why doesn't Chaim Herzog make that claim? He was military governor of the West Bank after the '67 War - surely he would know the story. He says this:

"On June 19, 1967, the National Unity Government voted unanimously to return the Sinai to Egypt and the Golan Heights to Syria in return for peace agreements. The Golans would have to be demilitarized and special arrangement would be negotiated for the Straits of Tiran. The government also resolved to open negotiations with King Hussein of Jordan regarding the Eastern border."

Is it likely that Israel offered to return th entire West Bank to Jordan when they were already incorproating part of it into Israel? And what leader could accept that deal anyway?

[ChuckyDee]

66. funny?

I don't see anything funny about it.

Israel offered the entire West Bank outside of Jerusalem. Jordan simply didn't want to police the Palestinians anymore. Neither did Egypt. Remember in 1970 the thousands of Palestinians murdered in Jordan? It's no wonder Jordan didn't want the West Bank back in 1967 or in 1994. Neither has Israel wanted the territories these past 40 years, but Palestinians left to themselves - like in Gaza with Hamas or the West Bank with Fatah, etc.. - there's good reason for such an occupation, as crappy as that is.

I find it interesting that the Palestinians didn't have a problem with Egypt or Jordan as occupiers - but only with Israel - when the fact is that Egypt and Jordan chose to go to war with Israel and lose those territories. Where was the Palestinian "yearning" for a homeland from 1948-1967?

[TomClash]

73. Where was the Jewish yearning for a Palestinian homeland in 1904?

Nowhere. I'll tell you where the Fourth Zionist Congress of 1904 wanted to put the Jewish Homeland - Argentina. Instead, two years later they decide to emigrate to a place where there are predominantly arabs and comparatively few jews.

It is evident that Jordan does not want the Palestinians. That does not mean that Israel has a right to the West Bank and Gaza or that the Palestinians have no right to their own state. In fact, the Peel Commission called for two states (with a sacred site territory administered by Britain) in 1937 and the Bunch plan called for two states in 1947.

Israel started negotiations with Jordan in June of 1967. At most, it offered the West Bank minus Arab East Jerusalem and the territory (now suburbs) around it. Even if that is what was offered, and I have my doubts, how could Hussein possibly accept that deal?

"Neither has Israel wanted the territories these past 40 years" - Oh please. If Israel didn't want the West Bank, it would not continue to build settlements there - trying to establish "facts on the ground." I find it interesting when pro-Israeli posters make your argument and leave out the settlements. That implies that they want a Palestinian state - in Jordan. There's an ugly German word for that argument - lebensraum.

[ChuckyDee]

82. another german word more relevant to the discussion - Judenrein

When did the settlements begin?

And how could Hussein accept a West Bank without Jerusalem? Oh let's see, that's just about 97% of all the West Bank that Hussein could have had back but forfeited. And God knows, he couldn't accept that deal. Such a deal would have emasculated him and taken away from his machismo, right?

Please.

[TomClash]

91. This coming from someone who calls Arabs "Toilet Bugs?"

Will you be cleaning the toilet? That seems to be the new Israeli role.

The settlements began in '67. And guess who couldn't wait to move in.

97% of the West Bank is NOT what was allocated for the arab state in Palestine by either the Mandatory or the UN. And Arab East Jerusalem is not Israel - despite Israeli attempts to assert "facts on the ground aside."

[ChuckyDee]

94. right

You're very set in your ways against Israel, aren't you? Let's see - Israel asked Jordan not to participate in the '67 war. But when Jordan did, they lost the West Bank, which they were offered back (except for all of Jerusalem), which was still 97% of all the land. And Jordan didn't want any of it back and yet you claim Israelis couldn't 'WAIT' to move in and settle the land. As though it was all planned out in some "Protocols" conspiracy.

Sad.

[TomClash]

101. Oh, don't play the victim

It is so tiresome. And your insults are really pathetic. Sure, Tony Judt, Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Henry Seligman and me are all "Protocols" advocates. And you're Jesus Christ.

The annexation of Jerusalem (and the surrounding area) began on June 25, 1967. The War ended two weeks earlier - on June 11. Gilo and Kfar Etzion were established almost immediately after the War. "Couldn't wait" would appear to be an appropriate phrase to use for Israel's actions.

If Israel was so anxious to return the West Bank why did it flatly reject the Fulbright Plan in 1970?

Your greatest achievement is that you brough Cali and Violet Crumble together in a common cause. Good work!

I'm tired of playing your professor. Laila tov and Masaa al-khair.

[cali]

5. Really, there's no

excuse for this, no matter what the provocation.

[ChuckyDee]

11. BBC assumes 10 people were targeted by Israelis

This BBC news article lacks the details to these 10 deaths - tragic as they are. It's not as though Israelis intentionally target women and children without provocation. Let's wait for the details.

Meanwhile, you've gotta love the BBC for claiming Israel murdered civilians without giving any details whatsoever. Were these 10 people among many other "militants" about to lob bombs against Israel's northern border?

Details please?

[frankieT]

14. every time Israel killed civilians

they got a free pass, 'cause you know, they don't target civilians just militants, but somehow manage to kill a lot of civilians, and destroy civilian facilities (what's the point to destroy the palestinian Economy buildings btw?).
we assume always that occidental armies including IDF have the moral high ground, and give them the moral high ground even if they level a city.
I don't need Abu Ghraib, entire families killed in Gaza or busses exploding in Tel-Aviv to know which part has the highest moral ground. It's just useful for the media wars.
Israel is now waging a war of collective punishment against Lebanon and Palestine, nothing new here.

[malaise]

45. Just like that family on the beach

who were all slaughtered except the little girl. They don't count. Israel always has an excuse for the death of others.

[ChuckyDee]

53. gaza beach tragedy

Read here about Gaza beach:

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Gaza_Beach_Libel.asp

Yes, it's a tragedy - but rooting hopefully for some sign that Israel is despicable is quite pathetic.

[malaise]

57. Every other report is wrong other

than honestreporting. Spare me please.

[ChuckyDee]

59. facts are facts

Go ahead and hide your head in the sand. You probably think there was a Jenin massacre too....and that Muhammad al-Dura was shot intentionally by Israelis to really start the intifida.

Sad.

Please - spare me. It's sad that the best you can do to critize Israel is to rely on complete fabrications created by Jew hating fascists.

[malaise]

65. The world's leading fascists

are their main supporters. And yes there was a Jenin massacre.

[ChuckyDee]

67. there was a jenin massacre? how sad that you believe that tripe.

Here, learn something.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/reports/Jeningrad_What_the_British_Media_Said.asp

[MrPrax]

86. LOL...

Typical...

A site dedicated to propaganda spin is your link...

'People who like Honest Reporting, also like...

http://www.theisraelproject.org/
http://www.judeoscope.ca/
http://www.adl.org/

They all got pages for people who 'need the right answers' to tough questions

Pure propaganda pushed by a person who wants nonetheless to be taken seriously for their opinions -- which are not any different than the opinions on the 'script' sites they regularly read...which kinda makes it ridiculous as 'proof' of anything.

[bennywhale]

87. Yep a good old Israeli investigation into the deaths of

innocents at their hands. Tom Hundall anyone?

Also, an American Ballistics expert also conducted an (independent) investigation and found that the most likely cause was Shelling.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. like school girls carrying their textbooks?

Or 5 yr old boys walking home with their dads?
or a house with family members as young as 10 months?

[ChuckyDee]

28. right, sure.....

Israel just loves to provoke the Arabs, killing a few here and there for no reason at all. And Israeli citizens celebrate such civilian casualties, just like their Arab "brethren" in the Gaza who party like it's 1999 when Jews are killed.

Want some of my Kool-Aid on the rocks?

[frankieT]

37. i don't know if they love that

but i know for sure that some israelis consider arabs as subhumans, and find some justice in denying them elementary rights to live quiet on their land.
A modern destructive army doesn't need to show the ugly feelings of hatred or joy at killing the enemy, it's all integrated, you can kill thousands of people just pressing some buttons and enjoy the nice fireballs at distance. The weak arabs are showing on the other hand the archaic face a war, with direct attacks and involvement because it's all they have. The more they get modern equipment, the more they can hope some real military victories and target IDF like Hizbullah did. it's all asymmetric.

[ChuckyDee]

48. no doubt about it

Yes, some Israelis consider ALL arabs subhuman - and they're idiots.

So? Any action Israel takes against terrorism is condemned as though ALL Israelies see Arabs as subhuman and could care less.

You bring up the exception to the rule, not the norm. And Israel deals with these idiotic exceptions as humanely and morally as any other country - even moreso - as Israel is one of the most liberal countries on the planet.

[frankieT]

68. you're doing exactly the same thing

You deny Hezbullah and Hamas any right to fight back against Israel, more precisely you deny the right for the arab people to resist in a way or another. For sure these organizations are trusted by fanatics and extremists, but you know when a citizen decides that enough is enough and join some military organization he has to be more personally involved than the regular soldier of a modern army whose actions and moral liabilities are merged in big state strategic decisions. When Israel bombs civilian targets, it is always tragic mistakes, you give them the benefit of the doubt, 'cause they're a democracy and there is no evil in policies lead by democracies. Hezbollah is just a resistance organization. It has only few major politic and military goals, so you can easily identify all the harmful actions made by Arabs with these organizations. They concentrate and embody the "arab evil" in the western/israeli perspective.

I agree totally that Israel has the right to defend itself and know that it could wipe out arabs without discrimination, but that does only prove that ISrael is way more powerful than its enemies and restrain itself because of international outcry, not that it's fair and humane. You know that there is a lot of ways to destroy nations other than carpet bombing.

[ChuckyDee]

83. here's where you're wrong

Hamas and Hizbullah are not merely resistance groups. They're genocidal machines hellbent on exterminating the Jews of that region. That is not legitimate resistance anymore than the Nazi party was.

And yes, Israel is humane and moral - and not just because of international outcry. Why else allow some Palestinians who always vote against israel's best interests in the Knessett? Why not wall off the entire West Bank 20 years ago and not allow any Arabs into the country to work?

You have a lot to learn. Sorry if that insults you.

[bennywhale]

100. Because they need the arabs for their economy

simple economics, just like cheap labour migrants across the US and europe. If you think Israel lets them in out of the goodness of their heart you are one of the most naive people i've seen on these boards.

Oh, and Israel wouldn't wall off the west bank 20 years ago because it wanted to build towns there on other peples property and guard them with soldiers. But now it is walling off the west bank, and stealing as much land as it can get away with in the process.

Wake up

[frankieT]

70. Yes, some Israelis consider ALL arabs subhuman - and they're idiots.

idiots ? not bugs ?? oh yeah just idiots, everyone knows that not ALL arabs are subhumans...Thank you for your humanity and morality, i didn't get it at first glance, but it's quite clear now.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChuckyDee]

95. to answer your question

Those who stand idly by and allow evil to happen are not nice people. Those who are kind to evil-doers tend to be evil to kind people. Arafat and his cronies are bad people. There, is that better? I'll desist from calling them names that you feel do not best represent their wonderful views and actions.

However, someone needs to stop them. Too bad the world leaves it to Israel to do it, and then complains when they do.

[bennywhale]

99. Arafat and his cronies are bad people ...someone needs to

stop them" Arafat is dead mate

[malaise]

47. I do not trust any propaganda coming out of

Israel or MSM.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10572

[ChuckyDee]

50. hilarious article on racism - THANKS

That article is a MUST read for all here.

Basically, it makes up claims against Israel so that Israel can look JUST as loathsome and morally equivalent as their enemies. THAT is what some people call "fair" coverage. It's not fair enough to call things as they are and see EVIL toilet bugs like Arafat, Saddam, and Bin Laden as murderous filth, but it's best to ALSO view Israel in the light that THESE despicable people (like Arafat) portray Israel hatefully to their brainwashed populace.

If it's a choice between THAT kind of fair-and-balanced vs. FOX news fair-and-balanced, give me FOX news any day.

And i'm a liberal BTW. A liberal hawk, but liberal nonetheless.

[malaise]

58. A liberal hawk

is an oxymoron. There is no liberal hawk on this planet.

[ChuckyDee]

61. no liberal hawks?

Hilarious. Tell that to any liberal democrats who are for the war in Iraq. Like Senators Clinton (although she's whatever flavor she wants to be depending on what day it is) and Lieberman.

Presidents Truman, Kennedy, and LB Johnson were all liberal hawks.

[malaise]

63. No what's hilarious

is that people buy the view that you can be a liberal and a hawk.

[ChuckyDee]

69. liberal hawk

Sure - people can definately be liberal but also know when to stand up to tyranny and injustice. Unfortunately, most far leaning leftists and liberals today would rather capitulate and negotiate with tyrants rather than deal with them in the only just and humane way - that is, by wiping them out so that REAL peace can ensue.

Neville Chamberlaine learned the hard way with Hitler that people like this cannot be negotiated with. Ever.

I will always remain quite liberal, but I've never been more ashamed of the US democratic party than I am now. If only Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman ran on the ticket in 2004.....if only. Sigh.

There's a saying about those who are kind to evil people. They tend to be evil to kind people. Very sad.

[malaise]

71. Thanks for clarifying your position

Unfortunately, most far leaning leftists and liberals today would rather capitulate and negotiate with tyrants rather than deal with them in the only just and humane way - that is, by wiping them out so that REAL peace can ensue.

There is no just and humane way to murder fellow human beings. Of course only your interpretation of a tyrant is objective. So you justify killing everyone who disagrees with your worldview - what liberal thoughts.
You are a hawk

You are hysterically funny but it explains the state of our planet and your indifference for the lives of the people of Gaza and Lebanon.

Edit -add.

[ChuckyDee]

72. liberal hawk, part 2

The only just, moral and humane way to deal with tyrants like Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, Ahmadinejad, and Assad is to take them out and therefore make their part of the world safer. There are good people in the Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, and Iran who are rooting for the USA and Israel to free them and allow for life to be better.

It's not just my view. How would you like living in one of those places where there are no equal rights for women and minorities and no freedoms of expression, press, or religion? Killing machines like in the Saddam Hussein led Iraq? Those societies are barbaric by any definition and they cannot e tolerated in the 21st century - ESPECIALLY when they pose problems to the civilized world - ie, terrorism.

Tyrants like Hitler MUST be confronted and totally eliminated. I'm sorry you'd rather not kill these bastards and would rather see them make life more miserable for everyone else eternally. But I fail to see any moral clarity in your position whatsoever.

[malaise]

76. Do you consider wiping out those who oppose

you as 'just and humane murder'civilized behaviour'?

I've had it with you. Keep on supporting the real fascists.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChuckyDee]

96. wipe out opposing views?

Hardly. I think the Nazis and their supporters were rightfully taken out. Don't you? Or would you rant against those who had severe issues with the Nazis and worked to end Nazism completely?

[pelsar]

78. i think you should read this:

http://eustonmanifesto.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=1

it probably explains your position better....

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Yep, those bomb lobbing women and children deserve to die!!

It's apparently 23 civilians dead, and you seem to be the only person disputing that they were civilians. From ynet:

'Earlier, at least 23 civilians, among them women and children, were killed when an Israeli missile hit a van carrying passengers on a road in the Tyre area, police said.

A police spokesman said more may have been wounded as the vehicle was directly hit.

According to reports, the passengers were on their way to a UN center when their vehicle was struck.'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276008,00.html

[ChuckyDee]

36. there's no denying....

that's a tragedy. If a bus full of civilians was hit accidentally, that's certainly a tragedy. To assume however that Israel targeted this bus knowing full well who was in it (all innocent civilians) is to believe in yet another baseless claim against Jews who want nothing more than to be occuping war-mongers.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

52. and if it was a minivan hit on purpose, what would you say?

all indications are that it was.

Both sides are crazy here. Both sides have a degree of fault and responsibility. Both sides risk a global conflict.

Recall the days when the US-USSR MAD strategy was liken to two angry men, one holding six matches, the other four, as they stood in a basement knee deep with gasoline? Well, this is worse. And the more aggressive any player here is, the worse the situation gets. For the past year, the biggest aggressor (after the US) is Israel.

[ChuckyDee]

56. assume it was intentional ? WHY?

I have no reason to suspect this was intentional. If, however, someone made a very cruel choice - I expect the person to be held accountable in Israel for crimes against humanity.

INteresting how Israel and the USA are the biggest aggressors today. Should worldwide Islamo-fascist terrorism not be confronted at all militarily - but only through negotiations that always fail?

[bennywhale]

89. Link for BBC claim?