In case anyone's forgotten,YOU paid for Israel's bloody mayhem in Lebanon

[farmbo]

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

The U.S. also gives Israel weapons and ammunition as part of the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program, providing these articles completely free of charge. Between 1994-2001 the U.S. provided many weapons through this program, including:

64,744 M-16A1 rifles
2,469 M-204 grenade launchers
1,500 M-2 .50 caliber machine guns
.30 caliber, .50 caliber, and 20mm ammunition

U.S. Weapons in the Israeli Arsenal(Selected list):

(Weapon,
Quantity
Manufacturer,
Cost Per Unit)

Fighter Planes
F-4E Phantom
50
Boeing
$18.4 million

F-15 Eagle
98
Boeing (originally McDonnell Douglas)
$38 million

F-16 Fighting Falcon
237
Lockheed Martin
$34.3 million

Helicopters

AH-64 Apache Attack
42
Boeing
$14.5 million

Cobra Attack
57
Bell Textron
$10.7 million

CH-53D Sea Stallion
38
Sikorsky

Blackhawk
25
Sikorsky
$11 million

Missiles

AGM 65 Maverick
Raytheon
$17,000-$110,000

AGM 114 Hellfire
Boeing
$40,000

TOW
Hughes
$180,000

AIM 7 Sparrow
Raytheon
$125,000

AIM 9 Sidewinder
Raytheon
$84,000

AIM 120 B AMRAAM
Raytheon
$386,000

Patriot
Raytheon and Lockheed Martin

Harpoon Anti-Ship Missile
Boeing
$720,000
<snip>

So make no mistake, even though you may not have a dog in this fight, the IDF could not declare "nothing is safe in Lebanon"-- and back it up-- if it were not for our weapons systems and munitions, most given to them free-gratis through the largess of YOU, the American taxpayer.

[Divine Discontent]

1. K & R to keep it up on the top for a while

this is a great point.




www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<<--- check it out!

[kentuck]

17. Thema and Louise "stayed the course"...

and went off a cliff! I like that bumpersticker. :)

[Divine Discontent]

56. KUDOS to that MSNBC COUNTDOWN

guest reporter that reminds me of Bill Clinton (his voice is the same) Craig is his name, I think, he said that about Bush's war must go on demands.

it's a great line! ;)


www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<<--- check it out!

[MissWaverly]

2. plus there's our record of contributions to Israel

This is an old article from 2001 but it give an idea of how much US money is involved here
Israel is twice the size of New Hampshire, I am not criticizing the Israelis, the current
strategy of aggressive war tactics has not worked, and the cost continues to escalate.

A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion—and Counting
By Shirl McArthur
With the turmoil surrounding the presidential election essentially freezing Congress into inaction, this is probably a good time to take another look at aid to Israel. The common figure given for U.S. aid to Israel is $3 billion per year—$1.2 billion in economic aid and $1.8 billion in military aid. As impressive as this figure is, however, since it represents about one-sixth of total U.S. foreign aid, the true figure is even more remarkable. It is difficult, however, to arrive at an exact number. Much of the money the U.S. gives Israel is buried in the budgets of other government agencies, primarily the Defense Department (DOD). Other subsidies come in a form that isn’t easily quantifiable, such as the early disbursement of aid, which allows Israel to gain (and the U.S. taxpayer to lose) the interest on the unspent money.
This year’s appropriations bills for FY 2001, which began Oct. 1, 2000, include, in addition to the $2.82 billion in economic and military foreign aid to Israel, an additional $60 million in so-called refugee resettlement and $250 million in the DOD budget, plus $85 million imputed interest, for a total of at least $3.215 billion. In addition, on Nov. 14, 2000, President William Clinton sent a special request to Congress for an additional $450 million in military aid to Israel in FY 2001, plus $350 million for FY 2002.

[bluedog]

3. The Lebanese people have the right to be free,(* says 2005

"The Lebanese people have the right to be free, and the United States and Europe share an interest in a democratic, independent Lebanon. My nation and France worked to pass Security Council Resolution 1559, which demands that Lebanon's sovereignty be respected, that foreign troops and agents be withdrawn, and that free elections be conducted without foreign interference."
- President Bush Feb 2005




http://www.usembassy.org.uk/bush348.html

[Poll_Blind]

4. Yep...enough to make a taxpayer puke. n/t

PB

[DELUSIONAL]

5. Great to know that I'm not the only one who notices that US Taxpayers

are paying the bill for this NEW war.

Also who is paying for the stuff Israel destroys??

Replacement of the power station in Gaza -- US Taxpayers.

[zulchzulu]

6. Mmmmmm....quagmire.... Mmmmmm....religious war....

So much money to be made on blood running in the streets.

[The Sushi Bandit]

7. Isnt it time to End US support for Isreal?

I an sick of it..

[Pachamama]

8. I haven't forgotten - and neither has the Muslim world...or the rest of

the world for that matter....

Wasn't our support of Israel also one of the reasons Osama Bin Ladin committed the attrocities of 9/11?

:shrug:

[garthranzz]

9. In case you've forgotten, you've also paid for the Arab suicide bombers

who blow up children.

And Hamas and Hezbollah which want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and kill every Jew on earth.

We should definitely forget how this got started - with Hezbollah, which runs large parts of Lebanon, attacking villages of civilians.

Please, spare us the biased diatribes.

[LincolnMcGrath]

10. Is Israel dropping special "children free" bombs?

Please, spare us the biased diatribes.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. Yes, Israel's bombs have special "no child killing" mechanisms

produced in Ohio. No matter where they land, they kill militants. It's all quite amazing, actually.

[LincolnMcGrath]

14. Nifty

[The Magistrate]

19. How, Mr. McGrath, Is That A 'Biased Diatribe'?

And several others preceeding it not?

Is the criterion whether or not they agree with your own view of the matter?

It is a fact that the U.S. has provided some money aid to the Palestine Authority during periods of hostility.

It is also a fact that Hezbollah committed an act of war against Israel that commence this episode of hostilities.

[alvarezadams]

50. Magistrate biased?

I'm sincerely surprised. To think that he's chosen a selected moment in a 40-odd year conflict to apportion blame on one side is somewhat surprising considering his purported neutrality.

[LincolnMcGrath]

53. Odd that you should chose to ask me that question.

Why not ask the original poster who brought the language in question to the thread?


Was the criterion which one of us agreed with your own view of the matter?

[The Magistrate]

61. My Eye Came First To Your Comment This Morning, Mr. McGrath

I acted hastily and should have looked into the full context before commenting. I apologize for having singled you out, Sir.

[bloom]

62. It is not a fact

"It is also a fact that Hezbollah committed an act of war against Israel that commence this episode of hostilities."


It is your opinion. A lot of reasonable people see Israel as the one who started it. Or at the very least - that it was started by both sides.


And I would still like to know how much money the US has given that "paid for the Arab suicide bombers".

garthranzz seems to have disappeared. But you seem to agree with him - maybe you have some figures. You say you have "facts" about it.

[IA_Seth]

39. Hear, hear! n/t

[High Plains]

13. No, Hezbollah attacked an Israeli military patrol.

Then Israel went batshit, destroying bridges, bombing the Beirut airport, and killing dozens of innocent Lebanese civilians.

Then Hezbollah rocketed Haifa.

[IronLionZion]

22. Israel's point is that killing Israelis is a very expensive proposition

While the people who killed Americans on 9/11 are still at large.

[High Plains]

38. Yes, I'm sure blowing up a bunch of innocent Lebanese is going

to stop people from wanting to kill Israelis. It worked so well with the Palestinians, right?

[IronLionZion]

45. You're preaching to the choir

But there are people who really do believe that killing innocent people will punish the bad guys somehow, even in the US.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloom]

31. Would you like to outline/detail

the money and weapons given to the Arab suicide bombers that are supposed to somehow balance out what was in the OP?


Because - for one thing - I don't know what you're talking about. And for another - I don't think anything compares to the amount of weapons we give to Israel - on a per capita basis.

[alvarezadams]

51. Aid?

"...Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid nearly one-third of the total direct bi-lateral aid. If we exclude Egypt whose disproportionate share of aid came as a result of agreements made with Israel at Camp David, and Columbia, which receives enormous aid to prosecute a brutal military campaign allegedly aimed at drug trafficking, Israel receives more than all of Latin America, the Caribbean, and Africa combined. That is, one of the richest countries in the world, a country of around 6 million people, receives more aid than two entire continents including some of the poorest regions in the world. This aid amounts to around $500 per year for every Israeli citizen and more if we exclude the Palestinian citizens of Israel who receive few if any benefits from the money (none of this aid goes directly to Palestinians living in the occupied territories). To take one other comparison, the US has put forward less than $300 million to fight AIDS in Africa. So roughly 10 times more money goes to Israel than goes to fight the greatest plague the earth has seen since the middle ages....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. These suicide bombers...

were they made at Boeing or Lockheed Martin?

[alvarezadams]

49. Swallow deep

Dupe!

[Cobalt Violet]

11. Kick

[vickitulsa]

15. I've stayed out of these threads

ever since I came to DU because long before I knew there was a forum especially for issues related to Israel, I got the drift from general reading at DU that there is a very strong and often virulent and violent anti-Israel attitude that seems to prevail here.

I appear to be one of perhaps only 10 or 12 DUers who sees both sides -- indeed, ALL sides -- of this seemingly eternal issue of "what to do about the Jews?" I don't blindly support everything Israel does by any means. But neither do I give a complete and unconditional PASS to all those who wish to see every Jew on earth dead. At times I almost expect to see swastikas pop up in some of the more biased and hateful posts!

Could someone please explain to me, an intelligent person, why it is that few here ever see fit to place ANY blame on the "other side" in any conflict -- violent or not -- between Israel and those who want to obliterate Israel from the planet?

I'm honestly baffled, and more than a little disconcerted. Which is why I finally decided to ask my questions in a thread like this. --I'm sensitive to flames, was a brutally abused daughter and don't tolerate anger well even though I've grown a lot thicker skin since coming to the Internet and discussion groups online back in 1997. I try to avoid conflict with people I consider my friends in what is probably the BEST group I've found on the Web in nine years of spending a lot of time online (I'm disabled and retired and can't do much else.)

But it's finally getting to me enough that I'm willing to risk being flamed in order to seek some answers to questions about the Israel issue that just won't go away. I wonder if anyone could enlighten me about this without torching this human being to ashes (verbally) to convert and "save" her....?

I hear a lot of talk about Israel killing children in its attacks. Does anyone understand that those who want to see every Jew killed is including babies and children that are Jewish? What's with the double-standard? I just do not get it. (I'm sure some here will agree with THAT statement at least! ;))

[LUHiWY]

18. Reality?

As far as I know....Israel was founded on Arab lands and at least partially by means of terrorism.

The US and US citizens support by their $$$$$....Israels policies.

In wars people die and suffer on both sides....but more so on the Palestinian side?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/


IMO...Israel should be forced, by way of the US withholding $$$$$ support...to find a resolution for their issues with the Palestinians. In other words....it's a sandbox situation...if you don't get along with the Arabs...we take away your toys?

Why is it still going on? The Jewish vote and $$$$? It's in the interest of the people who started the Iraq war to support Israel? Oil and profits? Geopolitics? Lets get a foothold in the Mideast and control that oil?


The citizens of the US are the ones who will pay the bills due as a result of the current foreign policy. But they will be bullpuckied into seeing the whole thing in a different light....getting those terrorists? Spreading democracy?

Real results: Higher taxes? Inflation? Falling dollar? A police state and fewer civil liberties to control the terrorists they stir up?

Who wins? Police and military? Defense industries? Oil industry? In other words...the fascists now in power.

[Jacobin]

20. I don't think there are saints on either side of this catastrophe

Both sides are convinced they are right and most want to fight to the death to prove it, both have gawd on their side, and this armed conflict will likely continue until the end of the earth, in the "Holy Land".

I don't think there is a solution. The only thing that seems to slow the violence is long long long patient negotiations, which Clinton was good at, and which kept them talking instead of fighting. Containment, as it were.

[KKKarl is an idiot]

21. I love the Jews

I even once lived in Jerusalem. But the fact of the matter is that they are occupying land that was taken by force. This needs to be returned. The real mushrooming of Al Quida took place after the original Gulf War. Some people in the Middle East said" "wait a moment". The USA did such a quick & decisive job of taking out the Iraqi's from occupying a country that does not belong to them. Why are they not working that hard to take Israel out of the West Bank? With more unanswered questions I believe this escalated to more hatred of the USA. Then came a budding terrorist along named Bin Laden. He lead & funded many operations including his most devastating (9/11). Our government instead of trying to figure out why these people hate us so. They went gung ho into Iraq to start a war they thought would be very short. From their the plan was to cross into Iran & then take them out & move into North Korea & put them to the same quick end. But their plans failed in Iraq. Now we are stuck funding a stupid war. Still supporting Israel. Still making sure we create deadlier terrorists in years to come. Please let the Jews live on. But also give the Palestinians their land back.

[KOBUK]

23. I for one, support Israel !

The Jews have been in that area since the beginning of time and are the only true democratic state in the region and I might add, the only true ally we have in the Middle East.If the Arab states were interested in peace it could have been obtained along time ago but they don't,they only seek the destruction of Israel!Every single Arab woman and child killed by Israeli retaliation can be lay ed at the feet of all the Arab states!They are the ones hell bent on driving Israel into the sea.Imo the United States should with hold any and all funds from any Arab state that refuses to seek peace with Israel and no, I'm not Jewish !

[bluedog]

29. same could be said by the Arab states

lest one forget that with out the US military equipment and monies........and the ever presence of US involvement in Israel.....that the state Of Israel would not be able to fight anyone.........

if it came to push and shove and an down and out fair fight........I personally don't think Israel would win............
What Israel is trying now is doing everything that is going to make the rest of the world HATE them...but they know the US has their back and that the US will do little .if anything....to stop them.......this gives the US.cause.........to attack Iran and Syria......think It's not true......watch....

this is the out...........and the means that bush ....... was waiting for,,,,,,,,,,and if fools follow him............the destruction of our country and the ME ..rests at bushs feet!!

[KOBUK]

32. Your last statement is a very scary thought !

[alvarezadams]

42. Swallow deep

The area commonly known as Israel was NOT occuppied by the Jews from the begining of time. They were relatively latecomers that conquered the area and imposed an iron-fisted regime long before the Romans expulsed them.

Until Balfour, the Jews were "also-rans" in the area. The problem in the ME has arisen because the West didn't have a solution for the Jews - they did not want them on their soil, Masagascar wasn't a viable option... so Palestine it was. After 2000 years the Jews imposed themselves on a region, a people - that weren't initially against their immigration. It took Zionist excesses to turn the locals into enemies.

It is patently clear that you have no grasp of history or of the status quo. This is not an insult but a dose of reality. I say that you have swallowed propaganda hook, line and sinker, and am willing and able to show you just how mislead you are.

So reply if you want a history lesson. Otherwise - stick to your Time-Life view of reality in which George Washington never told a lie and in which Democratic Dominoes are a real possibility.

I sincerely pity you.

[KOBUK]

46. You have your opinion and I have mine !

Its quite clear you have a biased opinion of the Jews.To many people do !

[alvarezadams]

47. Baloney

I have nothing but respect for Jews - or any other people.

I have little respect for Zionism, however - which is prone to paint anyone that is anti-Zionist as anti-Semitic.

Something that you seem to echoe.

I'll debate you on the subject to no end. I can rely on history while ultimately you can only rely on faith in propaganda.

NO side is innocent in the ME. I, however, choose to judge established governments with the support of the international establishment on a different level. For me, a GOVERNMENT that commits crimes or practices terrorism, especially a purportedly DEMOCRATIC government, is far worse than the most egregious criminal.

Bring it on, dude. You're out of your depth and it shows.

[vickitulsa]

57. And you are hypocritical, and insulting as hell,

while you present yourself as intellectual and knowledgeable and obviously think you're superior to the person you were responding to, you stoop to blatant insults to get in your "digs."

"I sincerely pity you" is perhaps the most insulting thing anyone can say -- at least if they're pretending they're NOT flaming! "Stick to your Time-Life view of reality..." -- and you say you're NOT insulting?? Hypocritical, and self-serving, and arrogant to boot.

Your intellectual gifts are misused by a mean and callous spirit, unlike that of the person you saw fit to attack.

I doubt you convinced anyone of your views because no matter what "facts of history" you cite, your attitude is offensive as hell.

Sure turned me off, and I'll listen to almost anyone. But it's hard to sit by and watch a jerk insult a decent person who did nothing to you.

[alvarezadams]

58. Feel insulted?

Deal with it. I tell it like I see it and if you feel alluded to, that's YOUR problem.

I've spent considerable time in Israel and have seen the local version of Apartheid. You, meanwhile, seem to defend the talkingpoint POV as propounded by the RW thinktanks.

Again - it's up to you to stand up for yourself. If you feel "insulted" by my expressions, feel free to counter my POV and let your arguments stand for themselves.

Anyways, I will be straitforward and admit my arrogance. From Latin, a rogare.

At this point in time, with blood being shed (mostly with our cash, BTW), I am damned well going to be insulting to anyone who tried to justify abuse.

Deal with it, debate with me, or ignore me.

[alvarezadams]

59. Look

I don't mean to be an arse on this subject. But please realize that I started posting on boards 4 years ago on this very subject, have travelled extensively in the ME, and know people on all sides of the bomb line.

The US version of the "pro Israeli" argument is only supported, in Israel, by the most extreme Israeli rwingers. The "officialist" US stance with regards to Israel is about as extreme as it can get - and to see Americans that do not know either the current or historical situation swallowing the extemist stance makes me ill.

Yes, I was insulting - for which I apologize. But I believe that I was reacting to an extreme situation.

[jackstraw45]

24. Well said. Your bafflement is shared by many...

DU, sadly, has both extremes.

Does Israel have the right to defend itself? YES

Are they too agressive and too careless not avoiding civilian casualties? YES

If Israel doesn't respond to attacks, are they more vulnerable to even MORE attacks? YES

It's easy for us, here in front of our cozy computer screens, to pass judgement.

Thanks for your post - a rational question in a sea of anger.

[vickitulsa]

26. Thanks for your response! And ditto to others who replied

to my questions... I'm truly heartened to hear far more rational expressions and explanations than I've seen on DU before (as a rule, I mean) on this issue.

As to the State of Israel having been established on what was once simply called "Palestine" in a rather generic sense (but based on Biblical "history") ... well, I just don't find that a persuasive argument for the way their enemies want to eradicate Jews/Israelis from the face of the earth. And remember, those enemies don't simply want to exterminate all Jews/Israelis from the Middle East or from certain regions in Palestine. Their battle cry has constantly been to KILL ALL JEWS wherever they live, anywhere on the globe.

Jews/Israelis could not do anything that would cause their rabid, sworn enemies to leave them in peace, IMO. If they back down the smallest bit, limit their responses to provocations and the slaughter of their citizens in diners and on busses in their cities, those who hate them so passionately simply take it as a sign of weakness. That invites yet more attacks, not fewer!

It all seems like an unending nightmare, all right; but I can't see one side being any more to blame than another. The Allied powers established the State of Israel in 1948 in the wake of WWII because even those nations did not want to take in the decimated, ravaged Jewish populations from the death camps and elsewhere in Europe. They had to give them somewhere to live, and I'm not sure they did them a favor by plunking them down in a small portion of land in the heart of Arab/Muslim Palestine!

But the Jews who morphed over time into modern Israelis did their best with what they were given. They proved they could fight back if given half a chance, and they survived. They believe they are on "God-promised" lands just like the Palestinians do. It's theology versus theology; one people's history versus another's. That's not something we can reason with such believers about, it seems to me -- though I still think the U.S. and any humanitarian person should be trying to do just that.

If some feel Israel should just up and leave their now-established homeland in the ME, claiming it wasn't "their" land to begin with, but someone else's, then why wouldn't the same sort of thinking hold that non-native "Americans" do the right thing and clear out of the continental U.S., giving back to the Indians the land that we stole from them?

It seems to me that by about the third generation after immigrants (whether they were "conquerors" or not) settle into lands new to them but where others lived before them, others they drove out or killed, those who've established themselves then feel as if they have a right to live where they were born and raised. Where their fathers and mothers were born. Where even their grand- and great-grand-parents were born!

Beyond that, looking backward, most people can't truly relate to just whose land it was.

It is more than strange that a people, the Jews, which were certainly considered to be the "downtrodden" of the earth for a very long period of time are now being seen as the "bullies" in a region where they finally have military superiority. Now the "downtrodden" ones, the UNDERDOGS, if you will, seem to be the enemies of Israel and the Jews who established, settled, and made it prosper even in the hardest conditions.

I wonder, could it be that the tendency of liberals to side with an "underdog" might explain the bias here toward Israel's enemies and against a strong ally of the U.S.?

[blueraven95]

28. Vickitulsa - If I could nominate this post I would!

It is one of the most well thought out posts I've read on this issue recently.

[alvarezadams]

55. Well thought out...

... yet totally devoid of truth, intelligence, knowledge or discernment.

[nam78_two]

40. Its such a complex issue

That I am surprised at black and white views-its all the jews or its all the arabs. As I posted elsewhere about Kashmir, these conflicts are all very complex and yes one side usually has a larger share of the blame (don't have enough of a historical perspective in this case to say who it is here)-but ultimately it is in everyone's best interests to set all that aside and work towards peace.

And I think its a good idea for disinterested outsiders (like myself-not commenting on the other posters because I have no idea if they have family/friends in that region-if they do I totally understand why that would affect their perspectives) to not take sides strongly and condemn one side or the other.
Even mere opinions that are very harsh to one side do seem to exacerbate these things :-/.

I like your post overall vickitulsa...its thoughtful and provides a measure of balance.


I certainly feel that what the Israeli govt is doing now is wrong (just imo though-am not a political scientist nor a "middle-east expert" -or whatever they call those loons who show up on Faux noos and talk in an opinionated way out of their asses)-wrong in the sense thats its not in their best interests or those of the Lebanese.
But then again I know very little about the whole conflict aside from what I read in the papers and what can anyone get from those eh?

I really just wish the whole thing would end and peace would somehow descend on the region and the world. I just feel really sorry for all the civilians on either side.
This is all just tooo depressing...I actually feel a little ashamed even about commenting on this cause (as someone said somewhere else) its easy to hide behind me cosy comp screen and have opinions :-/.

[vickitulsa]

43. I hear ya, about it being easy to hide in our cozy rooms behind computers

and have opinions we like to express. Perhaps we even need to express them at times, if only to relieve the inner tensions that build up in us as individual hu-mons during a frightening world crisis like this. --And I know it wasn't you who first said that about our comfort behind computers ... I'm sure it has been said many times on DU over the years in fact.

It's good to remind ourselves that UNTIL the bombs rain down on our neighborhoods, or we or our close kin have served in the midst of wars, in combat, in disaster zones, then our opinions are naturally going to be somewhat "easy to speak, hard to back up."

But I'm glad you posted, nam78_two, and welcome to DU! :hi: May I ask -- does your nam78_two designation refer to Vietnam? If so, you have some genuine experience in a place that has known maximum impact from prolonged senseless killing due to political wrangling of larger powers within a small country that became a battleground for the giants.

Presently the situation in Israel/Lebanon is reminding me way too much of Vietnam. With tensions between the major powers held in balance by the wisdom of avoiding all-out (possibly nuclear) global warfare, a situation like the one that developed in Southeast Asia in the Sixties could easily materialize now in the Middle East....

And those who sell the bullets AND the beans (and the gasoline!) would just get richer and richer while innocents and pawns bleed, suffer, and die.

On a MUCH lighter note, though -- I love your Website! :D

I'm not a vegetarian, but I should be, with my love of animals. I've always said that if I had to do the killing that put meat on my table, I'd become a vegetarian overnight! Makes me feel guilty as hell sometimes, so I depend on meat far less than I used to.

[nam78_two]

48. Thanks!

:)
>May I ask -- does your nam78_two designation refer to Vietnam? If so, you have some genuine experience in a place that has known maximum impact from prolonged senseless >killing due to political wrangling of larger powers within a small country that became a battleground for the giants.

Nope- nothing quite that impressive I am afraid :)-its merely the first three letters of my last name and the year I was born in!

But I am of Indian origin and had relatives who served in the Indian army/navy etc., so conflicts of this kind aren't exactly unfamiliar to me (at least as a discussion topic). And I am always saddened to see one side or the other painted with a wide brush.
I have always tried to check my own anti-Pak sentiments in that regard and tried not allow myself to generalize about any region or its people. Ultimately what do I know about the realities of life in Kashmir, Pak etc.?

>And those who sell the bullets AND the beans (and the gasoline!) would just get richer and richer while innocents and pawns bleed, suffer, and die.
I know...in all the talk about this nutty govt. and that and Hezbollah, Likud etc., we forget the actual people sometimes. I was reading in the WaPo today about a Lebanese carpenter who has just 2 peaches as his meal for the day; an Israeli expectant mother who is so badly injured she is unlikely to give borth or perhaps survive; a Lebanese man who spent the entire day looking for his wife in the rubble etc. :(
Ultimately its about these people and its just all so tragic .......

>On a MUCH lighter note, though -- I love your Website!
Thanks Compassion Over Killing is a great group and while I am vegetarian myself, I do think a lot is solved just by making more compassionate choices over where you get your meat from :).

Thanks for the comments and hope to see you around. Btw I wish I could recommend your original post, which I liked a lot, but it seems replies cannot be recommended -only
the original post...

edit: never mind...it seems I still can't recommend anything cause I have only about 20 posts...Oh well... you should post that in your journal though!

[ieoeja]

44. Also, they purchased a lot of that land.

The typical Palestinian Arab did not hold title to the farms where they were born and raised. They were tenant farmers on lands owned by wealthy individuals in Cairo, Damascus, etc. And those wealthy Arabs were more than happy to sell their property, especially the unproductive land, to wealthy Jews living in Europe and America.

Those Jews then used their land, their wealth and western technology to help Jewish refugees predominately from Czarist then Communist Russia to turn the land into productive farms. The post WW-II return then provided manpower made up of concentration camp survivors who were eager to fight for independance from British rule.

I assume there were also evictions from already productive land clearing out the Arab tenants for Jewish ones. However, I have never seen any statistics on that. The pro-Israel crowd isn't likely to produce those. And the anti-Israel crowd seems to be unaware of the fact that most of the land occupied by the Jews prior to the War of Independance was actually purchased, not conquered. So they aren't even looking for such statistics.

Not that the stats would mean much. It was still legal, if a bit shitty for the families that had rented that land for decades or even centuries.

Of course, they are not the first in their position to fight for their "squatters right". Farmers in New York took up arms against the colony upon learning in the 1750s that their family had only occupied the land rent free for decades. The MacGregor clan of Scotland was almost rendered extinct when they decided to just keep their land by force of arms instead of filing claim forms when the Brits started drawing up property lines. The aboriginal population in the United States happily sold much of their land then fought to retain/retake it without understanding what that whole bill of sale thing was about.

So this is common. And with the exception of the New York farmers, I don't know of anyone who ever won this fight. And the New Yorkers likely only succeeded because the colony decided it was simpler to change the name of the payment from "rent" to "property tax".

Of course, there was then that whole Vermont thing. But let's not go there.

[alvarezadams]

52. Try again

" And the anti-Israel crowd seems to be unaware of the fact that most of the land occupied by the Jews prior to the War of Independance was actually purchased, not conquered. So they aren't even looking for such statistics."

They are certaily aware of it and the data is readily available and regularly used in order to show
how the Palestinians were alienated from their land.

I'd LIKE to think that you're posting from ignorance.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. It has less to do with anti-semitism...

...than with the fact that Israel's current government is a bit, shall we say, right-wing, and is seen as being closely allied with Bush. The whole friend-of-my-enemy-is-my-enemy bit.

[cantstandbush]

36. "wanting to see people killed" and actually killing them is quite

different in my mind. I may want a lot of people killed, but i would never kill them. And just maybe so many usually blame Israel here because no where else will they be held responsible for their actions--not in the Congress, not by the media, and certainly not by the neocon-evangelical Christian right that gets to brain wash millions every Sunday with the gospel of hate everyone who is not a white Christian.

[Totally Committed]

16. It's so hard to watch this and realize that our children and

grandchildren will be paying for this (literally and figuratively) after we are gone, too.

My mind is numb over this... just numb. But, my heart is screaming.

TC

[donsu]

25. I feel the same - numb and heart broken

nt

[vickitulsa]

27. Me too.

And whatever else it is, it's sad beyond measure to witness what's happening right now in that troubled land.

The well of my tears is deep, very deep.

[bloom]

30. I haven't forgotten

What a mess.

[reprehensor]

34. Kick. n/t

[Zhade]

37. Sadly, that's true. Also to kill little kids in Iraq.

:cry:

[alvarezadams]

41. OK, the source is biassed

but the data is real:

"...Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid nearly one-third of the total direct bi-lateral aid. If we exclude Egypt whose disproportionate share of aid came as a result of agreements made with Israel at Camp David, and Columbia, which receives enormous aid to prosecute a brutal military campaign allegedly aimed at drug trafficking, Israel receives more than all of Latin America, the Caribbean, and Africa combined. That is, one of the richest countries in the world, a country of around 6 million people, receives more aid than two entire continents including some of the poorest regions in the world. This aid amounts to around $500 per year for every Israeli citizen and more if we exclude the Palestinian citizens of Israel who receive few if any benefits from the money (none of this aid goes directly to Palestinians living in the occupied territories). To take one other comparison, the US has put forward less than $300 million to fight AIDS in Africa. So roughly 10 times more money goes to Israel than goes to fight the greatest plague the earth has seen since the middle ages.



Other aid to Israel is harder to calculate. Much is buried in DoD (Department of Defense) budgets and some costs such as lost interest from early disbursement, forgiven loans, etc. is difficult to calculate. Nonetheless, many estimates put total aid at near $5.5 billion. One should not be confident of any particular number here, but there are clear categories of aid not included in the foreign aid budget: research and development support for weapons systems, joint military training, loan guarantees, loans that are later forgiven, gifts of military hardware, access to US military intelligence, special grants for refugee resettlement, and early disbursement of funds.

This last category is not widely known. There are at least two ways in which Israeli aid is different from that of any other country. First, it is transferred to Israel in one lump sum at the beginning of each fiscal year. Other countries’ aid is disbursed throughout the year. This, of course, costs the US interest on the money. Second, Israel needn’t account for specific purchases. Most countries receive aid for very specific purposes and must account for how it is spent. Israel is allowed to place US aid into its general fund, effectively eliminating any distinctions between types of aid.



US loans to Israel are also a source of much confusion. Israel owes the U.S. government almost $3 billion in economic and military loans. It is often stated by Israeli officials that Israel has never defaulted on a loan from the United States. This is true, but only because loans are waived before default can occur. From FY 1994 through FY 1998, Israel received $29 billion in waived loans. Currently, the total U.S. contingent liability for Israeli loans the amount the US will owe if outstanding loans are not repaid is about $10 billion.



Finally, it is worth noting how this aid is spent. After the Intifada began last fall, Israel requested additional shipments of Black Hawk and Apache helicopters. These weapons have been used to fire missiles into civilian neighborhoods and to assassinate Palestinians throughout the Intifada. In June 2001 Israel requested 50 additional F-16 fighter jets. These purchases would, if approved by Congress, be financed largely by U.S. military aid. Congressman John Conyers (D-MI) requested that President Bush investigate whether Israel’s use of these weapons violated the Arms Export Control Act, which stipulates that U.S.-supplied weapons be used only for legitimate self-defense. The White House has not issued a public response.



Moreover, the U.S. Foreign Assistance Act prohibits military assistance to any country which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights. The State Department, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, LAW , B’tselem, Al-Haq, and other human rights groups have all confirmed that in attempting to suppress the intifada Israel has employed collective punishments, home demolitions, detention without charges, torture of detainees, extra-judicial killings, and other violations of Palestinian human rights.

Finally, the Proxmire amendment bans military assistance to any government that refuses to sign the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty and to allow inspection of its nuclear facilities, which Israel refuses to do. Presidential and Congressional indulgence of Israel has allowed it to respond to the Palestinian intifada with massively disproportionate force, escalating the conflict beyond any possibility of a peaceful resolution in the foreseeable future. "

http://alawda.rso.wisc.edu/aidtoisrael.htm

[alvarezadams]

54. Stock response

The US was popular - backed by the moiety of humanity - when it stood on the basis of its DOI and Wilson's "14 Points" (based on self-determination).

Israel HAD a moral argument years ago. It has since abused it to a degree not far removed from that of the fascists that did the Jews so much harm. In essence Israel has adopted fascism - a truly ironic and sad historical and political twist. Years after the world defeated Apartheid, supposedly liberal democracies support a new "wall" similar to that which the Reaganites demanded to be torn down.

There is no justification for terrorism. Terror is NOT an alternative for anyone. Yet between "grass roots" terror (no matter how manipulated its source) and "state" terror (perpetrated in the name and for the sake of "democracy"), I find the latter far worse.

When governments practice terror they are lowering themselves to the level of the fanatics they are supposedly against. But besides the obvious moral conundrum of a state breaking the law because of a perceived injustice, what of the purely practical issues that arise from fighting fire with fire?

EVERY time that excesses are countered with excesses ("a hard hand"), physics takes a step backwards. "Every action foments an equal and opposite reaction" certainly is valid in the scientific arena, but not in the body politic. In human endeavours, every excessive action foments an exponentially greater counteraction, unless it is exercized in heartlessly and completely excessive case of overkill. What Israel is doing (and has been doing for decades) is the sanitized version of "the final solution". The victims become the criminals, irony if ironies.

For the record, I accept Israel as a fait accompli. I do NOT recognize any historical justification of its "right" to exist but accept that it indeed exists. I believe that Israel should continue to exist becaue it has created (through impropoer means, but that's not the issue) a collective with the right for self-determination. Yet it has abused the rights of the "indigenous" inhabitants to a degree not often matched by any other nation.

I find the fact that the country that originally coined the "14 Points" is supporting a regime that not only is criminal but that endangers the peace of the world to be utterly obnoxious.

What happened to the "road map"? What happened to "democratic dominoes"? Just so much rhetoric to fool the "muddle urmurcans" of the GOP, and apparently - some of the DNC'ers too.

We currently provide more aid to Israel than to anyone or anything else. Yet they see fit to meddle in our politics, spy on us, abuse even our capitalistic rights with regards to patents, to menace our relations with over 1 billion people.... in any other country and in any other time this would be tantamount to a causus belli. If the Israelis were commies we'd have nuked them.

It is TIME to rethink our policies with regards to a criminal state. The fact that it is a victim of reprisals has nothing to do with our policies.

And fvck Lieberbush.

[Lithos]

63. Locking per I/P guidelines

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article. Title does not match article, inflammatory.

Lithos
DU Moderator