Jimmy Carter: Punishing the innocent is a crime

[Scurrilous]

<snip>


"Innocent Palestinian people are being treated like animals, with the presumption that they are guilty of some crime. Because they voted for candidates who are members of Hamas, the United States government has become the driving force behind an apparently effective scheme of depriving the general public of income, access to the outside world and the necessities of life.

Overwhelmingly, these are school teachers, nurses, social workers, police officers, farm families, shopkeepers, and their employees and families who are just hoping for a better life. Public opinion polls conducted after the January parliamentary election show that 80 percent of Palestinians still want a peace agreement with Israel based on the international road map premises. Although Fatah party members refused to join Hamas in a coalition government, nearly 70 percent of Palestinians continue to support Fatah's leader, Mahmoud Abbas, as their president.

It is almost a miracle that the Palestinians have been able to orchestrate three elections during the past 10 years, all of which have been honest, fair, strongly contested, without violence and with the results accepted by winners and losers. Among the 62 elections that have been monitored by us at the Carter Center, these are among the best in portraying the will of the people.

One clear reason for the surprising Hamas victory for legislative seats was that the voters were in despair about prospects for peace. With American acquiescence, the Israelis had avoided any substantive peace talks for more than five years, regardless of who had been chosen to represent the Palestinian side as interlocutor.

The day after his party lost the election, Abbas told me that his own struggling government could not sustain itself financially with their daily lives and economy so severely disrupted, and access from Palestine to Israel and the outside world almost totally restricted. They were already $900 million in debt and had no way to meet the payroll for the following month. The additional restraints imposed on the new government are a planned and deliberate catastrophe for the citizens of the occupied territories, in hopes that Hamas will yield to the economic pressure."


more

[Tom Joad]

1. Jimmy seems to be getting it right these days.

[pelsar]

2. so is he playing dumb?

or is it just willful ignorance?

With all their faults, Hamas leaders have continued to honor a temporary cease-fire, or hudna,

those kassams and katushya coming out of gaza?......they dont count or the hamas doesn't govern there?.....or is that their and carters idea of a cease-fire:

we can shoot at you, terrorize you israelis, and we'll call it a cease-fire and we'll even sucker in some of the west, those religious "true believers" to redefine 'cease fire" for us.

anybody help me with an answer or is it as i've stated? a ceasefire means: shooting at israelis?

[ShalachEtAmi]

3. Maybe thats what `Hudna` means as opposed to ceasefire ?

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Wow, it's invent yr own Arabic translation Hour...

Lame....

Violet...

[barb162]

28. What Hudna? What ceasefire?

What does Hamas do to stop rockets being fired into Israel. Nothing. What does it do to stop other attacks on Israel? Nothing.


"Strong indications that the Popular Resistance Committees have become a kind of sub-contractor for Hamas, enabling it to encourage attacks against Israel and its internal Palestinian rivals without leaving fingerprints"
snip


http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/english/eng_n/html/prc_270406e.htm

[Violet_Crumble]

37. A ceasefire means Hamas isn't attacking Israel...

It does not mean Hamas must stop other groups who have not agreed to a one-sided ceasefire (note - Israel never agreed to a ceasefire with Hamas)...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Hamas is the PA!

Do you not understand that?! They are the government! It is their responsibility to reign in groups that attack Israel.

[Burning Water]

52. Yes, it does, if

Hamas controls the PA. They are now not just an outlaw group, but a group in control of the reins of government. Which means, they MUST control all other groups, as they are responsible for what goes on there.

Of course, if they want attacks on both sides to continue, they are responsible for that, too.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. No it doesn't...

The Hudna applied to Hamas, who have pretty much honoured it. Other groups which aren't under the umbrella of Hamas and who didn't agree to a ceasefire are launching rockets. To claim as was done in this thread that Hamas are attacking Israel is incorrect. To accuse Hamas of carrying out these acts is as stupid as accusing Israel of carrying out the acts of extremist settlers or of Baruch Goldstein. Or is it now acceptable to claim Israel carries out attacks on innocent Palestinian schoolchildren in the Hebron area? I can't agree with that as it's the work of extremist settlers, not of the govt of Israel, and the same goes for rockets being launched from Gaza - it's the actions of militants and not Hamas...

Violet...

[barb162]

32. Hamas terrorist activities during the 'Tahdia' (declared calm)

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Hamas+terrorist+activities+during+the+Tahdia+11-Oct-2005.htm

11 Oct 2005











"(Communicated by the Prime Minister’s Office)


Summary

Despite the so-called calm of the ‘Tahdia’, agreed to among the Palestinian factions in February of this year, the Hamas organization has not slackened its efforts to perpetrate various terrorist attacks. However, it has not claimed responsibility for these attacks so that it could continue to apply violent pressure on Israel to make further withdrawals, while reducing the risk of Israeli counter-terrorist operations against it and avoiding the need to pay a political price on the Palestinian street for its controversial attacks"
snip

[Violet_Crumble]

64. How about supplying something from an unbiased source, barb?

The Israeli govt has a vested interest in making all sorts of claims, and as I've seen them claim that attacks on their troops is terrorism, when it comes to terrorism, I take a lot of what's said on that site with a large grain of salt if it can't be verified by independent sources...

Violet...

[barb162]

70. Here's a ditty about a truce with 100 rocket attacks by Hamas

under an article titled
"Hamas 'still committed' to truce"

SNIP
"There have also been well over 100 Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli targets in and around Gaza in recent days." snip
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4692517.stm

[Violet_Crumble]

76. Where's the ditty? I turned up my speakers for it but no joy...

The article actually states that there was a one-sided ceasefire (note that Israel refused to a ceasefire) and the article comes from a time when it was really shaky and looked like breaking down. It didn't, however.

So am I to assume from yr posts about the Hudna that you think even if Hamas declares a Hudna and for the most part sticks to it, you don't believe them?

Violet...

[Tom Joad]

4. You believe that all Palestinians must suffer because of that?

[pelsar]

5. you certainly

believe that israeli should suffer for no reason other than they living in israel.......or perhaps i missed the post where you had a suggestion as to how to stop the palestenain rockets from flying into israel?...i dont think i did, its the preference as i understand it.

i do recall the post where you criticized the IDF for killing a palestenain trying to sneak past the gaza fence, armed......i'm assuming here, but i guess you were pissed that they stopped him from killing israelis....


kind of makes an interesting view point doesnt it.....for a "progressive"

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Seeing as how the article was about the Palestinian people suffering...

...is it possible to actually discuss that for a few microseconds?

I read an article this morning about how the Palestinian health system is close to collapse and how some patients have already died where their deaths were preventable. When the system finally collapses it's going to get much worse...

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — The shelves at Shifa Hospital's pharmacy are half empty. A shortage of anesthesia means surgeons can do only emergency operations. The kidney unit has cut back on dialysis because it's low on filters, and four of the unit's patients have died from a lack of medicine, officials say.

The West's economic boycott of the Hamas-led regime has brought the perpetually strained Palestinian health care system to the brink of disaster, international aid workers and government officials say. They warn of an epidemic of preventable deaths if money is not found soon.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/3845393.html

Jimmy Carter is saying what any progressive should agree with - that punishing the Palestinian people this way is very wrong. You don't agree with him?

Violet...

[pelsar]

12. the palestenain health system...

as well as its economic system is very much in danger of collapse.....a failed economy etc wont do anybody good, and will most likly increase the various gang bangers as each neighborhood, and pseudo ideological group does what it can to protect its own.

worse, i dont even know if there are any international aid/UN workers left in gaza.......so i dont want the palestenains punished......

at the sametime, hamas a govt which has as its base the destruction of israel, in my eyes is an illegitimate govt, one that should not be allowed on the "world stage".
and feeding the palestenains and taking care of them, is in effect, helping hamas stay in power and giving them more power if they succeed
______________

quite the dilemma....

[Tom Joad]

17. Reminds me of the state of the health system in other occupied lands

Under Siege.
Blame the victim.

Such a crime.

[barb162]

30. "Blame" the duly elected government, Hamas ,for the problem

the same government who chooses this:
'I dream of a map without Israel'

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1143498785513

Does this seem like the words of someone who wants peace? A two-state solution?

[Violet_Crumble]

40. So what do you suggest as a solution?

You do realise that Palestinians are already dying coz of the funding freeze, right? While it may be personally gratifying to play yet another round of the blame-game, are you willing to support the continued attempts by the US to stop funding getting to the Palestinians even though you know that Palestinians have and will continue to die because of it?

Violet...

[barb162]

57. Hamas should renounce violence. The solution is perfectly clear

Palestinians, if they are dying, are dying because of Hamas policies, not because of the funding freeze. The funding freeze will be lifted when Hamas renounces violence and the other Quartet demands and and I hope you realize that. The funding freeze could have been over already.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. You know as well as I do they won't do that...

So the solution you just offered was in effect to allow Palestinians to die. Those deaths are preventable. The US needs to stop trying to stop funds from other countries getting to the Palestinians or else it's every bit as bad as Hamas...

As you've made it clear in yr posts that even if Hamas did renounce violence, you wouldn't believe them, my question now is whether you think it's worth Palestinians dying in some stupid game of brinksmanship just to try to force Hamas to say they renounce violence, so the Bush administration and Israel can then claim Hamas never said it, or if they did, they didn't mean it, and therefore the funding freeze and dead Palestinians continue. At what point does a Palestinian life become worth something?

Violet...

[barb162]

71. Others have moderated over time, Violet

I haven't seen them moderate their Charter yet or anything else. If Hamas cares about the people, they will moderate. If they don't moderate, don't you think the Palestinians have to take another vote?

[Violet_Crumble]

77. That's sidestepping the issue...

Could you try answering the question I asked?

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

79. If yr in any doubt that Palestinians have been dying...

Three children died due to medicine shortages in Gaza

Gaza- Ma'an- Medical sources in Shifa'a hospital in Gaza City have said that three Palestinians suffering from kidney problems died as a result of a lack of medicine due to the siege of the Gaza Strip.

http://www.maannews.net/en/do.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10654

[Violet_Crumble]

39. I don't think getting aid to the Palestinians is helping Hamas...

If anything, Hamas are helped by being able to play the victim role, even though it's the average Palestinian who's the victim in all this, and not them. As repugnant as Hamas is, the Palestinian health system can't be allowed to collapse, and for the US not only to allow it to do so, but to loudly attempt to stop any aid getting through from other countries is entering the same ballpark as far as repugnant goes....

Hamas has proved that they don't care about Palestinians. They may think they do, but it's the same sort of 'caring' that all hardliners do, where they decide that the population is willing to survive on water sucked out of rags and bits of stale bread or whatever and in reality the population are pawns for them. Pushing Hamas against the wall is just going to make it more determined not to give an inch rather than moderate its stance, and it could have the result of strengthening even further the support for Hamas amongst the Palestinian population. But the bottom line is that the international community can't just sit back and watch Palestinians die because of the intransigence of both Hamas and the US, and international funding is going to have to commence quickly in order to avert what will be a catastrophe...

Violet...

[Tom Joad]

11. What is it about you twisting my posts?

I think in that post i was just surprised to learn that Israel also attacks *armed* Palestinians, it is so unusual.

So often it is the unarmed Palestinians who die. Or kids with rocks. Or little girls with school books. (and they needed to "confirm the kill" with that one, and you can see why i remain skeptical that the Israeli military will do anything about school kids being stoned in Hebron).

[pelsar]

14. ?

I think in that post i was just surprised to learn that Israel also attacks *armed* Palestinians, it is so unusual.

____

sometimes your posts are so full of BS......

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[number6]

24. how progressive >NOT

"And it's not about trying to find justice for all. It's about winning, and enforcing your views on the other people. The Palestinians have been consistently beaten, yet they won't stop. So they will continue to suffer, as a people, for their own decisions, as a people. Guilty and innocent alike."

progressive ?? its all about winning
"It's about winning, and enforcing your views on the other people."

sounds like Karl Rove

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Yeah, nothing like seeing open support for watching Palestinians suffer...

That sort of sentiment has no place on a progressive forum, imo. It was totally disgusting...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

43. What a poor analysis!

There was no "open support for watching Palestinians suffering."

Again...:eyes:

"One people against another. It's not pretty; it's not nice. And it's not about trying to find justice for all. It's about winning, and enforcing your views on the other people. The Palestinians have been consistently beaten, yet they won't stop. So they will continue to suffer, as a people, for their own decisions, as a people. Guilty and innocent alike."

[Burning Water]

54. Violet, how is it

that supporters of Palestine can never seem to read what is plainly written. I do not support Palestinian suffering. I simply say that they have the ability to make it stop, and refuse to do so. I believe in placing the blame where it belongs, but that does not mean that I support anybody suffering, anywhere, and anytime.

Israel is not going to allow a "right" of return. They cannot. Until this is off the table, there can be no peace. Only the Ps can do this.

But talking about "disgusting", the lack of outrage over, and excuses for, the slaughter of innocent Israeli civilians, the deliberate slaughter I might add, by some members of this forum is disgusting. And, in my opinion, it does not belong on a progressive, or any other forum.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. I was just going to write a reply...

..until I noticed the departure. That last sentence stands out though, as it's clear that something didn't belong on this progressive forum :)

Violet...

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[number6]

56. ok, what do you approve of ....?

"I didn't say that I approve," glad you said that

"I said that is what war is.
Do you think differently? OK, how is war different from what I said?"

depends on the war doesn't it. did we bulldoze down German and Japanese houses
and take their land, it was the commies that built a wall in Germany...

depends on the conquerers doesn't it some wars are like you say and
some aren't

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Hamas isn't the group firing the rockets...

I'm not sure what sort of convoluted logic leads to the idea that they do...

Violet...

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

13. they're the govt...

they are everybit responsable for the rockets as israel is to the settlers.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. There's a difference between responsibility and actually firing rockets...

And if we're to apply that same logic to the actions of Israeli settlers, then Israel hasn't stopped settlers from murdering Palestinians, from destroying their crops, and Israel is responsible for the actions of Baruch Goldstein and the other terrorist who carried out an attack prior to the disengagement. And Israel is responsible for the actions of those soldiers and border police who use their positions to abuse and mistreat Palestinians. But....while Israel is responsible for those things, that doesn't mean that Israel has carried out those acts. That's where the difference is and that's why it's incorrect to say that Hamas are firing rockets at Israel. There's plenty to criticise Hamas for without blaming them for carrying out acts that they aren't carrying out, and an obvious criticism is that they are responsible and very much to blame for condoning the latest suicide bombing. And while before Hamas were in power, the PA didn't have the ability to control militants (I'm pretty sure it was Hamas who kicked the collective arses of the PA and Israel when they did a joint venture in trying to kick the militants arses), Hamas are different and would have both the ability and the means to control militants. Clearly they don't want to...

Violet...

[eyl]

15. They aren't firing

most of the rockets. That's not the same as not firing rockets.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Does the same standard apply to Israel?

Or is Israel somehow exempt from the demands you make of the Palestinians? After all, Israel hasn't protected the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza from Israeli citizens, and has never been able to guarantee Palestinians security. Yet during all that time it was demanded of the Palestinian leadership that they must talk to Israel....

Violet...

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

27. I don't know which it is, but Carter's comments indicate he has

some sort of blinders on as he is not dealing with the simple little fact that Hamas is responsible for not acceding to the Quartet's demands. Hamas is punishing the Palestinians by not going along with the Quartet.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. His comments indicate he views Palestinians as human beings...

n/t

[barb162]

58. His comments indicate he has blinders on about Hamas

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Can you explain how?

I've read the article and there's nothing in there jumping out at me hinting that Carter has blinkers on about Hamas. Though I guess if it's considered to have blinkers on about Hamas to have dared to voice concern about the plight of the Palestinian people rather than trotting out some rant about how eViL Hamas are, then he'd be guilty, and I'd be hoping that many others are also guilty of being able to be concerned as well...

Violet...

[Phx_Dem]

10. what's wrong with this picture?

"Public opinion polls conducted after the January parliamentary election show that 80 percent of Palestinians still want a peace agreement with Israel based on the international road map...."

But Jimmy then states, "One clear reason for the surprising Hamas victory...was that the voters were in despair about prospects for peace."

So which is it Jimmy, was Hamas elected to re-invigorate the peace talks like the Pals apparently want, or did they elect Hamas with some other goal in mind?

[Lithos]

62. Of all the posts here

This is the only one to discuss what was said in a way which is constructive.

To answer your question.

Fatah remained in power and Arafat/Abbas was elected PM only because they were felt to be the ONLY possible option for achieving peace. Remember that Arafat and Fatah were elevated by Israel and the Western Powers and given the mantle as being the voice of the Palestinian people in order to provide a basis for Peace discussions. They were not elevated for being good administrators, but for other reasons which center mainly on being secular and convenient. It turns out they were pretty poor at running a government, completely lacking in vision, corrupt and they have obviously failed in the peace process.

Hamas was elected not because it is a terrorist organization, but because they were the only alternative to the highly corrupt Fatah party capable of governing. Fatah was not moving forward in terms of creating a viable country and infrastructure. Hamas while they have a terroristic wing also has vast knowledge in actually running things like hospitals and schools plus have excellent street credibility with the Palestinian people as fighting corruption.

At this point I think the Palestinians, while they desperately want peace, believe the peace process has stagnated and are wanting to move on. Their focus is now internal to themselves and not external to things such as Israel and as such Hamas could offer them some expectation of getting things working again. This is what President Carter is talking about when he says despair has forced them to move on. Had there been a secular alternative not tied to Fatah capable of handling the internal administrative challenges, they would likely have taken it.

As it stands, the external pressure that is being applied to them via sanctions is likely to create a stronger and more ideological enemy than existed a few years ago. A people without hope are a dangerous enemy. Prior to this past election, the Palestinians had hope.

L-

On Edit: Grammar

[Phx_Dem]

69. Maybe between Hamas/Fatah...

they can make some progress.

I think your assertion that the corruption of Fatah had a lot to do with Hamas rise to power is correct. Now that the quartet is funding civil servant positions in the gov. perhaps Hamas can see fit to accept Israel and renounce violence. Clearly this action by the quartet demonstrates a compromise, now is the time for some reciprocity.

[Igel]

16. Let's see how this works out.

The Palestinians are accused of voting in a terrorist organization, Hamas. Whatever the label, they did vote into a power a group that for years tried to kill civilians as they went about civilian life and has as its goal an Islamic, Arab government "from the river to the sea," to use a much-abused phrase. However, because people actually voted in Hamas as a reaction against corruption, they're innocent of any blame for the consequences of their actions. It's only their goals and motives that provide evidence for evaluating their actions, not the results obtained, even disregarding individuals' words as necessary. They are not to be held responsible for thinking their actions or even their words through.

The US and others want to defund the Hamas government because of Hamas' historic predilection for killing civilians of any age and sex, even though they've temporarily decided to refrain from this particular blood sport, while Hamas claims that they have an apparently god-given right to money from the US. The US and others say they'll continue to fund much-needed humanitarian efforts, but not the government or its employees. The banks are skittish about transferring money, lest they run afoul of US (and others') banking-with-terrorists laws. The result is that innocent people--many of whom innocently voted for Hamas--are punished. In this, we can only evaluate people based on results, not on goals and motives. In fact, we even must assume that the results directly reflect their motives, again ignoring their words.

Is there some sort of valid principle here, or are people just trying to blindly argue for the conclusions they long ago decided were correct?

[pelsar]

18. your claiming....

responsablity for ones actions.......thats a tough concept to swallow for many.

[Burning Water]

22. Your last sentence

pretty well sums it up.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[v osk]

23. DISSONANCE

It does seem that the main problem here was the bush policy in forcing elections which nobody, including Abu Mazen, reccommended, insisting that Hamas be included and then freaking out when they were elected. It is not a secret that they are involved in terrorism, nor is it a secret that Fatah had made themselves very unpopular with corruption and internecine violence. It was logical to believe that these elections, forced by bush, would result in the election of a terrorist organization, nor was the Palestinian population put on any notice of the consequences if they voted Hamas. Some way has now got to be found to get sufficient aid to the Palestinian population to avoid deaths from hunger and untreated disease (coming this summer)without giving it to Hamas; but this could have been avoided if bush was not an incompetent fool.

[pelsar]

25. bush did not elect hamas.....

the palestenains did the electing and Hamas had a very clear platform....

the concept of "responsabiility for ones actions" seems not to include the palestenains....how about one standard?

so can i assume that this goes for the israeli electorate as well?....or how about the US people?...they really didnt mean to elect bush....they didnt understand the consequences....

why bother with elections at all in that case, since they seem to have no meaning?

[v osk]

50. gaza situation

obviously the american people did not understand the consequences of electing bush or they wouldn't have done it - witness his current approval ratings - but it not be an acceptable response to deny the public food, medicine or sanitation as a penalty for this mistake. similarly, mass death from cholera in gaza is not an appropriate response to the election of hamas, especially since the us insisted they be allowed to campaign, even in jerusalem. i would think all progressives could find unity on that point, which does not imply accepting hamas's rejectionism - just simple humanity.

[barb162]

26. Hamas should stop collectively punishing the Palestinians

and go along with the Quartet.

[Tom Joad]

29. Israel has rejected the Road Map. It never really accepted it.

It attached numerous conditions to it.

And you might remember, Israel is occupying Palestine, not the other way around.

[barb162]

31. "Hamas says talks with Israel would be a waste of time"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060509/wl_nm/mideast_gaza_dc

[Violet_Crumble]

46. And what did that have to do with Israel rejecting the Road Map?

Nothing. No surprises there...

Violet...

[pelsar]

34. and we also remember...

that israel left gaza..and in return receives kassams every day....funny how that works.....strange way of showing ones responsability toward statehood: attack your neighbor citiizens..and then "whine" when they respond"

new concept: responsability for ones actions.....

[barb162]

59. Responsibility? That doesn't seem to be an operative word

does it? What we notice is year after year demand for Western donations without renouncing violence.

[Englander]

36. That's nonsense, absolutely.

An absolute abuse of language, & an absolute misrepresentation of the situation.

btw, the Road Map was wrecked, years ago.

Unveiling of RM;

Sharon endorses Palestinian state

Simon Jeffery and agencies
Wednesday June 4, 2003

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,970282,00.html

Destruction of RM;

Last Updated: Tuesday, 10 June, 2003, 14:17 GMT 15:17 UK

Israeli air strike targets Hamas leader

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2977530.stm

[barb162]

60. Renounce violence and the aid will come back.

How many times does the Quartet have to say it before some people get it? First the Quartet threatened, then the Quartet acted. Hamas was warned. Now Hamas whines? Yet it still does not renounce violence. What is wrong with this picture?

Your first two sentences are illogical. How many times did the Quartet warn Hamas?

[Englander]

74. So, Hamas are a credible witness, now?

I thought that your position was that Hamas weren't to be trusted, & that their statements were
not to be believed? I mean, in this very same thread, you've provided links, & posted statements
that support the view that Hamas are not to be trusted;

What Hudna? What ceasefire?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=124987&mesg_id=125150

Hamas terrorist activities during the 'Tahdia' (declared calm)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=124987&mesg_id=125159

"Blame" the duly elected government, Hamas ,for the problem
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=124987&mesg_id=125153


So, it appears a wee bit illogical to now say that any statements by Hamas should be taken at face
value, & should be believed. Does that mean that your view has changed?

[Violet_Crumble]

47. It's not Hamas freezing funding, barb...

And it's the drying up of funds which is punishing Palestinians....

Violet...

[barb162]

61. Plain and simple , funds are frozen because of Hamas and its

policies, statements and actions. Hamas is punishing the people.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. That's dangerous logic...

The same can and has been argued when it comes to blame for suicide attacks on Israeli civilians. Claims are made that it's Israel's fault coz it continues to occupy Palestinian territory and is to blame for what happens to its citizens. And in the same way that I reject that particular argument, I reject yrs for exactly the same reason. Taking a side and sticking to it stubbornly come hell or high water and clinging to a belief that the other side is always to blame isn't very constructive, imo...


Violet...

[barb162]

73. It's superb logic; I will stick with it

[Violet_Crumble]

78. It doesn't surprise me that you'd think so...

..but I want to repeat that it's the same logic that's used by those who justify the use of suicide bombings to try to blame Israel for the bombings. Those folk would crow that their logic is superb and impeccable, but it's so full of holes that if it were a can of beer it'd be drained before the town drunk got their first slurp...

Violet...

[Andromeda]

33. Jimmy Carter should really stick with....

building houses for the poor. He never had an astute political mind and his presidency was just a blip on the radar. He's nice enough, but simply naive when it comes to foreign affairs.

[Englander]

35. I think those comments should have a wider audience.

I think it would be interesting to see the reaction if those comments/sentiments were posted
in GD, say. Speaking as a non-US citizen, it would be fascinating to see the responses, I wonder
how many would be supportive of the sentiments expressed.

:popcorn:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[Englander]

49. Yes, I wonder what the tally would be re pro/con Carter?

I wonder how many would be in favour of the sentiments, & how many responses would be against them?

[Name removed]

55. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tatertop]

72. Jimmy Carter gets it!

[Stockholm]

75. Jimmy Carter will go down in history as a

great humanitarian.