Israelis say they 'don't take orders' from US

[Resistance]

http://www.wtev.com/news/world/story.aspx?content_id=B76F1016-C1CC-48D8-871E-F776113F17F9

(Jerusalem-AP) -- Israeli officials are standing up to the United States -- saying they're adamant that Yasser Arafat be removed one way or another from Israeli territory.

This comes as U-S Ambassador Daniel Kurtzer met with Israel's defense minister. Kurtzer says the U-S is "quietly" discussing the matter -- and hasn't changed its position since yesterday, when one official said expelling Arafat would "not be helpful" to peace efforts.

Arafat yesterday defied the Israeli declaration, saying no one would "kick him out." One Israeli Cabinet minister says Israel "doesn't take orders" from Washington.

[Cheswick2.0]

1. of course not

:shrug:

[hang a left]

10. we know we take our orders

from Israel, please don't be mad at us.

[el_gato]

2. okay

let's stop giving them our money

[jos]

4. Exactly, but

Sharon has Bush by the balls because both know that when it comes to giving money to Israel, AIPAC controls Congress.

[el_gato]

5. your right about that

[Atlant]

18. That's not why Sharon has Bush by his supposed balls...

> Sharon has Bush by the balls because both know that when it comes to
> ving money to Israel, AIPAC controls Congress.

The REAL reason that Sharon has Bush by the base of
his snarglies is that (as has been reported here on DU)
Israel gave the Bush Babies very specific information about
exactly what the terrorists were planning to do on 9/11, and
Bush chose not to act.

Now, all Sharon needs to do each time is remind Bush how easy
it would be to make that information (about how Bush knew)
"more obvious" and Bush responds by bending over faster than
you can say "Bottoms Up!"

Atlant

[Cassandra]

26. If my alternate choice is Arafat controlling Congress...

then I'll take AIPAC any day, but I would much prefer that Sharon leave Arafat where he is, alive. What is it about neo-cons that when they see a can of worms, they feel compelled to open it?

[jos]

36. Neither one should control

That is what is meant by "even-handed."

[The Magistrate]

37. They Are Just Looking For Friends And Family, Ma'am

[dArKeR]

3. Just take our citizens tax dollars.

[Nicholas_J]

12. But they might not keep getting it

If they get too arrogant about it. Perhaps a check to Arafat for the next military allotment to Israel and allowing thme to purchase a great deal of military hardware might just bring them around.

Thats what Clinton implied in the mid 9's and thats what got them to give the Palestinians their Authority to begin with.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Divernan]

7. Jerusalem Post editorial calling for murder of Arafat.

According to this morning's C-Span interview of the editorial writer for the Post, the "world has left Israel no choice now but to kill Arafat." So the Bush administration, with its rejection of all things international, including treaties and tribunals, has opened the door for a public call by a newspaper to the citizenry to commit murder of an elected official. The editorial was also said to call for the murder of as many Hamas leaders as possible as quickly as possible. Of all the unbelievable things I've heard in the last year, this was the most horrendous.

[theHandpuppet]

8. We opened the Pandora's Box...

... in Iraq, now Israel is simply following Bush's lead.

[jos]

11. "Blame Canada." "Kill Arafat."

It's the same reasoning. They've run out of options, so the only one left is to kill as many Palestinians as they can.

The editorial also reveals how too many in Israel have lost their moral bearings. They turn a blind eye to the occupation and the illegal settlements, and choose murder as the only recourse.

[NNN0LHI]

9. Expelling Arafat would be "serious" mistake: Russia

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1504&ncid=1504&e=15&u=/afp/20030912/ts_afp/mideast_israel_russia_030912071539

MOSCOW (AFP) - A move by Israel to expel Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat would be a "serious political mistake with the most negative consequences," Russia said.

"Such a step would remove the possibility of peacefully resolving the Israeli-Palestinian crisis and would lead to an uncontrollable chain of events in the worst case scenario," said a statement from Russia's foreign ministry.

more

[madrchsod]

16. hmmm, would that

move russia into saudi arabia? joint military excercises with iran? syria -russia? that would turkey and egypt do? the islamists would have an army of new recruits overnight....dam i`m glad georgie boy is in charge......

[madrchsod]

13. it`s really simple

get rid of arafat then when palistine blows up,bring in the idf and deport all the palistinians into syria,jordan,and lebanon..sounds like a good plan to blow the whole mid east into war...and we have 150,000 troops surrounded in iraq.

[markus]

15. You assume Syria would go to war with Isreal

with 150,000 US soldiers on their flank, and official designation of the short list of people to get their asked kicked by Bush et al.

I think the Israeli's Final Solution to the Palestinian problem is staring to line up nicely with Bush's desperate need for war in the middle east in time for the next election.

War on the western front, toward Syria/Isreal and away from the oil, would be a better plan than war with Iran, which will shut down the Persian Gulf to shipping. That would not be good for business.

[Eloriel]

14. Well maybe they don't have to take our money, either

Nahh, never happen.

Eloriel

[Guaranteed]

17. You'd better rein in your boy, Georgie....

Things are bad enough as they are over there. Sharon better shut the hell up unless he wants to bring this war out of the fringes and into the mainstream. The last thing Israel needs is a well-known and loved political martyr for the Palestinians to rally around.

[The Magistrate]

19. Arafat Is Not On Israeli Territory

He is on territory Israel overran in '67, and to which it has no legal claim, as it is both outside the de facto borders of Israel as recognized at its admittance to the U.N., and part of the ground assigned by the U.N. Partition of Mandatory Palestine in '47 to the Arab Zone.

[Lurking Dem]

20. I would appreciate your opinion

on what you think might be going through Sharon's head. What possible gain does Israel think it can garner by expelling Arafat?

I can think of several possible outcomes and none of them bode well.

It is, however, refreshing to see that there are world leaders even worse than George Bush.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

21. I think he's gunning for an excuse....

to go in and take out the Palestinians once and for all. By expelling or killing Arafat he can provoke a reaction so big on their part, he can claim justification for then doing the unthinkable. (He has a history of doing just that.)

Is that a sane policy? Absolutely not. Sane people can see it for the nightmare it is.

But I am fast coming to the conclusion Mr. Sharon is not sane.

[Nicholas_J]

23. Probably correct

The would like nothing more to see a 9/11 style event in Israel in order to gain an excuse to reclaim the entire Palestinian Authority.

[The Magistrate]

40. On What Is Going Through Sharon's Head, Ma'am

This seems to me a combination of dither and force of habit. Sharon's policy has been always to strike at Arafat in response to the acts of Hamas, and for two reasons. First, because it was much easier initially to target the openly established facilities of the Palestine Authority than the clandestine networks of Hamas, and second, in the hope of goading the Palestine Authority into taking action against Hamas. This was the general policy of Israel in the old days of border infiltrations, particularly prior to Suez, and at least in the case of Jordan, it did have some of the desired effect.

However, this seam is rather played out. Arafat refused to take such action, and fairly early in the current wave of hostilities, Sharon inflicted such damage on the capabilities of the Palestine Authority that it was left unable to reliably suppress Hamas even had Arafat belatedly chosen to do so. Sharon is thus left, really, with only the one option of forcibly supressing Hamas himself, since he is clearly unwilling to negotiate or make any political concessions that might largely de-fang it through reducing the support it enjoys among ordinary Arab Palestinians.

To do this will require a full-bore invasion of Gaza, and it has been my own expectation for more than a year Sharon will do this. Sharon, remember, has invaded Gaza before: he was in charge of suppressive operations there after the initial wave of guerrilla activities following the '67 war. Such an operation will not be a pretty spectacle, though it will have a fair chance of success, defined strictly as liquidating the greatest proportion of the leadership and armed militants of Hamas. Its political consequences will be harsh, rather akin to those of the Lebanon invasion Sharon led under Begin. Sharon probably has some sense of this, though he will greatly under-rate it, being a believer first and foremost in force, with little understanding of other forms of power, but he will have, it seems to me, a rather hazy sense that a trap he does not quite comprehend is opening before him.

A thunderous threat against Arafat allows him to delay this final move, while appearing to his political supporters to be doing something important. It allows time for a popular clamor to build on the right for great actions, and that there is coming to be such is evidenced by the recent editorializing of the Jerusalem Post. This will steel him towards the policy of fimally engaging Hamas directly, in a major way, on the ground. Actually moving to expell Arafat may trigger a wave of violent expression among Arab Palestinians en masse that will further strengthen his resolve in the matter, but this is not really necessary. Other than this, there is no good to be had by expelling Arafat, or by threatening to do so. Neither thing will change the political impasse, nor alter the military factors. It is a stupendous side-show. The question is: when will the invasion of Gaza commence?

[Lurking Dem]

41. Thank you

for your thoughtful reply (and to the others as well). Can't type at present or I would respond more thoroughly.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Doesn't his irrational personal hatred of Arafat come into it at all?

I've read the hatred is a mutual one and of a very personal nature. So while I agree that one reason has been to target the PA rather than Hamas (after all, they think they have to be seen to be kicking the crap out of someone, no matter how tenuous the link, ala Bush kicking the crap out of Afghanistan after Sept 11), I don't think there's been any genuine motive to try to push Arafat into taking on Hamas. He wouldn't want Arafat to do that. Why try to push someone he hates so much into achieving something that would win him world-wide praise and probably get him another Nobel Peace Prize?

Much as I hate Sharon, he's not a stupid man, and I think unfortunately he does understand other forms of power quite well, but has no interest in them, seeing them as weak. And if he has only a hazy comprehension of the trap opening underneath him, it'd be because he's choosing not to listen to those who are trying to point it out to him, or the information isn't being allowed to get to him, and I suspect there are some in whatever Israel calls its Dept of Foreign Affairs or State Department who'd be trying real hard to tell him right now...

You said that moving to expel Arafat would trigger a wave of violence among Arab Palestinians. I don't know much about the make-up of the Occupied Territories, but wouldn't all Palestinians be Arab? And if there's a segment of them that aren't Arab, does that mean you think only the Arabs would react to that sort of development? I think if something like that happened, the reaction would be a Palestinian one...

Violet...

[tinnypriv]

22. Then why are they saying they're waiting for a "Green Light"?

This is one of the stupidiest AP articles ever.

[newyorican]

24. To all you who poo-poo'd the idea...

of Sharon using the "fog of war" (Iraq) to take steps that would not only be absurd without the "fog", but will increase the danger to our troops in Iraq...whatcha got to say now???

[tinnypriv]

32. Nice timeline

Right after 9/11/01 - "Arafat irrelevent"
Right after 9/11/02 - "Israeli troops besiege Arafat HQ"
Right after 9/11/03 - "Expel Arafat"

How BLATANT do they have to be??

[liberalhistorian]

25. They sure as hell don't have any problem

demanding, expecting, and taking tens of billions of our tax dollars per year! And then using those dollars to kill Americans like Rachel Corrie. What sheer arrogance! And to think I once wholeheartedly supported Israel (a long time ago)!

[molly]

28. Please tell us how much money the Palestinians get from

the US each years - much of which Arafat keeps for himself.

[StandWatie]

29. laughable

American aid to Palestinians was not only negligle, it never went through the PA (supposedly we are going to send them some now, don't hold your breath) it went through various non-Palestinian humanitarian NGO's but don't let things like the real world screw around with your fantasies.

[tinnypriv]

30. BWAHAHAHAAHAHHAA

Do you really want to know the figures?

And more importantly, the meaning of them?

[newyorican]

31. Is school out already?

:crazy:

[Resistance]

33. LOL

:thumbsup:

As a bit of a caution flag, this thread should make any sane person think twice before wasting their time actually 'debating' with molly.

[Jackie97]

27. But they sure do take money from the US....

While I absolutely enjoy watching somebody tell the US to piss off, I do with that it wasn't Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. I think it's great...

I always think it's great to see someone telling the US to bugger off, and in the case of Israel it's doubly satisfying knowing that the US gives so much $$$ to Israel and still gets told to piss off and still keeps on sending those $$$$...


Violet...

[durutti]

34. Cancel Aid

See how fast they follow U.S. orders.

[Equinox]

35. They don't take orders...just our money.

Ok...time to read the article. The subject line was in response to the subject line of the article.

[sushi]

38. Of course they're not

"taking orders" from Washington. They will "study and consider" any "request."

[sushi]

39. Look what happened

when * was cocky and ignored everybody. Is Israel's leader going to make the same mistake? As if there's not enough trouble in the world already.