The cult of suicide, the culture of failure

[barb162]

The cult of suicide, the culture of failure

By Bradley Burston

Suicide is the ultimate pornography.

We cannot look away, it hits too deep in the human imagination. Perhaps that is because suicide constitutes the ultimate mystery. Anxious to know why a suicide takes the decision, we can only ask those who fail at it. Those who succeed at it, remain precisely as indecipherable as death itself.

In the lexicon of suicide, there are few acts more obscenely pornographic than human bombs who target the innocent and the uninvolved.

And there is this element of perversity as well: where the Palestinian national movement is concerned, the effect of suicide bombing has been nothing short of catastrophic.

The shahid bomber, soiling the name of Islam as he acts in the name of Allah, has soiled the name of Palestine as no one else, draining the Palestinian people of the abundant reservoir of international good will that their cause and their plight enjoyed for decades.

snip
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=707640&contrassID=2

[kenny blankenship]

1. Behold the creation of Israel: the suicide bomber

steal a people's land, annihilate their society and culture, kill their children, destroy them as a people, and not surprisingly, some of these people will conclude they have nothing to live for except to protest against the occupation of their land and the genocide of their people.

It's obvious to the whole world.

[barb162]

4. Did the Allies occupy, etc., Japan re the Kamikazes in WW2? No.

After WW2, when the Allies did occupy Japan, there were no suicide attacks by the Japanese. Suicide attacks are "military" tactics.
You might want to take a different line of thought there

---

" Suicide attack
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Suicide bomber)

A suicide attack is an attack in which the attacker or attackers intend and expect to die (see suicide). In modern times, such attacks are often carried out with the help of vehicles or explosive materials such as a bomb (a suicide bombing), or both (i.e. a vehicle laden with explosives). If everything goes to plan, the attacker is killed upon impact or detonation also causing innocent lives to perish.

Suicide attacks are a kind of tactic, planned and organized by extremely committed military or paramilitary groups. This tactic became widely known during the Second World War in the Pacific as Allied ships were attacked by Japanese kamikaze pilots who caused maximum damage by flying their explosive-laden aircraft into military targets. Since the 1980s, the low cost and high lethality of the tactic have made it a favorite with guerrilla, insurgent, and especially terrorist groups, notably in the Middle East and Sri Lanka. The Tamil Tigers were, as of 2000, "unequivocally the most effective and brutal terrorist organization ever to utilize suicide terrorism" (according to Yoram Schweitzer of the Institute for Counter-Terrorism in Israel: <2>); since the Tigers signed a cease-fire in 2001, suicide bombings by Islamist militants, mostly in the Al-Aqsa Intifada and the Iraqi insurgency, have been the most frequent and cumulatively destructive. The September 11, 2001 attacks used hijacked airplanes to become the largest and most destructive individual suicide attacks on one day."
snip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bomber

[kenny blankenship]

8. The Allies were fair and were not there to steal land, slowly exterminate

the indigenous population. And the Japanese people (like the occupied Germans) knew their government had fired the first shots starting the war.

You might want to bone up on your history, so you don't make laugable comparisons.

[barb162]

11. You will want to read a lot more about this phenomenon

occurring in other places and times. Again, how do you explain the kamikazes if the Allies weren't even occupying, etc Japan. And as far as laughs go, check up the population figues for the "Palestinians" from 50 years ago versus today and talk about "slowly exterminate" no more. There is a very high birth rate

And you need want to bone up on your history, so you don't make laugable comparisons.

[kenny blankenship]

12. ridiculous to say that occupation is the ONLY cause of a suicide attack

No one calls Japanese kamikaze pilots "cowardly" or "murderers". (At the time, yes they were called every evil name imaginable and so were the "fanatical" "crazed" Japanese infantry soldiers who refused to surrender and charged into machinegun fire, although their attacks were, at that point, without any tactical objective.) With the perspective of time, most Americans are able to appreciate the extreme difficulty and integrity of the kamikaze pilots' devotion to their country--while not exactly wishing to share in it in any way themselves. The kamikaze were soldiers in a warrior society fighting back with the most efffective means remaining at their disposal. Yes, kamikaze attacks, while 100% fatal for the pilots, were very effective against our Navy, more effective than anything the Japanese had left. They began informally with pilots deciding to crash their aircraft deliberately when they had already been hit, and became a formal military tactic and peaked with our invasion of their island chain. The stakes for the Japanese were increasing as we prepared to invade their home islands, and their conventional means of repulsing our forward advance were simultaneously collapsing--the kamikaze was a guided missile. Our own military, particularly the Marines, in that same war had an occasional history of what can only be described as human wave suicide assaults on the Japanese. We just don't make a practice of honestly calling these attacks "suicide missions" beforehand, or of lionizing the deliberate self-sacrifice of troops following suicidal orders afterwards, the way the Japanese culture did. We always reserve words of scorn for the other side's acts of sacrifice, and say that they are "fanatical" and "fatalist" and "suicidal". At the pivotal Battle of Midway, our first 40 torpedo bombers were sent against the Akagi carrier group without any fighter escort, nearly every single plane and crew member was lost. No one defames these Americans as "cowards" or "sick minds" although in carrying out their orders they sacrificed themselves, had no real chance to inflict substantial damage on the enemy and surely knew their odds of survival were negligible. They accomplished one thing: their suicide attack drew the Japanese fighter cover down to sea level allowing our second wave of dive bombers to get through later, sinking 3 carriers outright and turning the tide of the war against Japan.

You're running out of serious points to engage with.

[pelsar]

25. except you miss a few major points...

the US marines with few exceptions hoped to return home....even if the chances were slim...so too the midway torpedo bombers. they may have known they had little chance of surviving but the hope was still there. Even the japanese kamakize was attacking military targets..born out of a militant society.

the palestenain suicide bomber is looking for civilians as his/her target of choice.......HUGE Difference.

[barb162]

50. Excellent

Some people try to make suicide bombers out to be "noble" although I hate to even use that word in the context of suicide bombers. They are going after innocent civilians and that isn't noble no matter how it is stretched.

[barb162]

43. Why do you bring something up such as

kamikaze pilots and the "cowardly" comment, although I will agree they certainly weren't cowards. "All out" war such as WW2 or any other such conflicts bring out heroic and all other kinds of behavior. I haven't run out of any serious points but I really don't want to discuss WW2 war tactics here or how the propaganda mechanics ran during WW2 other than to mention at least they, the kamikazes, went after military targets. Of course, they probably had little to no choice in that matter.

[geek tragedy]

65. Exterminate? Israel has killed fewer Arabs

than Hafez al-Assad, King Hussein, or Saddam.

I'm no defender of the occupation, but charges of extermination are indefensible.

[Jim Sagle]

20. It's a lie to say Israel stole the land.

No use repeating that lie - everyone knows better by now.

[King Mongo]

22. Does this mean that it is not theft...

... if Mexico expels Texans from Texas and annexes the land? What exactly is theft? If Mexico expelled me from my house in Texas, prevented me from returning home and annexed my home into Mexico where it was given to a Mexican, then I would accuse Mexico of practicing theft.

If we look at the situation from this perspective, then everyone knows that Israel did indeed steal land. Maybe "theft" is defined by our preferences, meaning that a "thief" believes that he/she is not a theft because he/she feels that he/she has legal justifications to steal.

Thus, some Zionists argue that it is not theft to steal property from Palestinians since they believe that G_d gave the property to them and thus they think that theft is legally justified when practiced by them. But, this does not mean that they did not practice theft.

[starofdavid]

97. This analogy doesn\'t work for me...

1) Israel did not expel natives from their native land and annex the land...
That just didn\\\\\\\'t happen
It just couldn\\\\\\\'t happen that Mexico could expel you from your house in Texas (unless it were Texas, Mexico)... One can understand your confusion, but Israel has never annexed West Bank or Gaza. In fact it got out of Gaza completely. It is now Judenrein, and they are working on making West Bank Judenrein, and when the Israelis get completely out of the territories that used to belong to Jordan and Egypt, they will try to get them out of the Middle East altogether. But they should not worry about it, the Jews. You can be sure they will be fully compensated by the Palestinians. \\\"They\\\'ll get theirs\\\" is rather the attitude. It should be funny, but it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s not.

Check out the beautiful synagogues that Israel built in their settlements and what the Palestinians did to them after the Israelis left. HERE

and check out this Israeli site on how to preserve holy sites. HERE
ps..that\\\'s a neat little G_d thing you are doing.

[bemildred]

2. The boring, bombastic banality of bullshit ... nt

[barb162]

6. In between the so called bombast, there are some quite

appropriate thoughts in that opinion piece.

(PS I think the piece is written over -emotionally, but then again the subject is a very emotional one; it had a huge number of talkbacks)

[bemildred]

14. It is drivel, Barb, simple minded propaganda.

The emotionalism is intentional, it's not supposed to make you think, it supposed to send you gibbering into the closet.

[barb162]

36. The emotionalism is certainly intentional

but then again it's a very emotional subject.

[bemildred]

64. Glad you see that.

Because it's a very emotional subject, it is all the more important to be dispassionate and realistic in considering it; lest one find oneself indulging in pleasant fantasies and delusions, when what one needs is a sober and realistic strategy.

For example, this fellow asserts that the bombings, suicide and otherwise, have been an ineffective tactic, and bases that assertion on the fact that Palestinians lives still suck, and suck worse than before. Yet one would not assert the same argument in Iraq. Iraqis lives suck worse all the time, but nobody intelligent draws the conclusion that the Iraqi resistance has been ineffective. In fighting an occupation, the last thing you want is to make the lives of the occupied people better, as it demotivates the resistance. It is also perfectly clear in the light of developments of these last 20 years or so that Palestinian resistance has been very effective in forcing change on the Israeli polity. But of course, the government of Israel, like the government of the USA in Iraq, does not want to talk about that side of the situation, and prefers instead to spread this dishonest and unrealistic propaganda.

I don't mean, BTW, to imply that Hamas or Fatah are honest of noble or whatever where the Israeli government is not, I'm just saying that if you want to understand what Hamas of Fatah are up to, you have to start with an accurate picture of what they want, and peace and prosperity under the occupation is not what they want, far from it.

[geek tragedy]

66. BIG difference between the Iraqi insurgents and the Palestinian

terrorists.

The original impetus behind the suicide bombing and the violence against Israel is not the occupation, but rather the creation and existence of Israel. True, the occupation has provided the majority of the fuel for this conflict, but the underlying issue that gave rise to the dispute was Israel's existence. Proof of this is the fact that the phrase "right of return" is viewed by many on the Palestinian side as a live issue.

Trying to make your own people's lives shitty for 40 years in miserably unsuccessful attempt to end an occupation is indefensible.

I also think that the insurgents in Iraq are prolonging the occupation, but that's another discussion . . .

[bemildred]

67. I was simply pointing out that the tactic IS effective,

Contrary to what the OP said. I was not implying that it was the moral thing to do. My observation has been that morality and ethics are not much use in understanding this sort of conflict. It may be indefensible, I would agree, but it's amazing how often one sees that strategy pursued, and how well it works.

[geek tragedy]

71. I would argue that the tactic hasn't worked in either instance.

How close are the Palestinians to a functional state, and how many more generations of Palestinians must wander in the wilderness for that to be a reality?

Re: Iraq, I think Bush & Co would be more than happy to cut and run at this point. Beyond kicking Saddam's ass, I don't think there was that much consensus inside the Bush administration as to what to do with Iraq. Now, I think they're staying because of domestic political considerations--to get chased out by a rag-tag bunch of insurgents would be an electoral catatrophe for the Republicans--and we know that's the primary concern for them.

[bemildred]

72. Exactly, and you would be wrong, because your premise is wrong.

The goal is/was not the viability of a (compatible with Israel) Palestinian state, it is the decay of the Israeli state. What is interesting now is that Hamas, having won control of the nascent Palestinian state MIGHT have an interest in the goal you assert, if supported in pursuing it.

[eyl]

78. If the goal was

decay of the Israeli state, it's been rather counterproductive - arguably, the intifada has done quite a bit in unifying Israelis

[bemildred]

79. Yes, yes, everything is great.

Much better than say, 20 years ago.

[eyl]

80. Not what I said, was it n/t

[bemildred]

81. "Disunited" is not what I said either. nt

[geek tragedy]

88. That premise would seem to support the Likud position on

the Palestinians.

[bemildred]

89. Hamas, I said nothing about Palestinians.

Yeah, it would, to the extent that they do indeed want the demise of the Israeli state.
So what? Did you think someone was confused about that? Does Likud have to be wrong
about everything? Sometimes paranoids do have real enemies, as the saying goes.

[geek tragedy]

90. I think we're misinterpreting each other.

I was talking about how suicide bombing hasn't served the Palestinian people well or the goals of the more secular militants.

Hamas, I agree, has done spectacularly well with its tactics.

[bemildred]

91. Well, no, you are right about that (the secular Palestinians etc.).

Things in the Palestinian areas have, ummmm, "degraded" severely during the recent troubles, and Fatah is weakened, Arafat is dead, and the secular economic and political life of the Palestinians has been crushed.

It just wasn't what I was talking about, I was talking about Hamas and the faction that does not want to settle and that favors the Islamic POV, which faction has done very well, greatly increased its support, etc.

And I'm interested in whether the policies and tactics of the Israeli government have achieved what they set out to do, or not. I think one can argue for the "not" case with some credibility.

[geek tragedy]

92. I don't think anyone other than Hamas has been successful in achieving

their goals.

Most satisfying, of course, is the complete and utter destruction of Likud as a viable force in Israeli politics.

[bemildred]

93. That works for me.

Although it's would only be a start on reversing the damage they have done.

[King Mongo]

3. Suicide bombings are no different from many other types of bombings....

...such as city bombings, nuclear bombings, mines and many other types of bombings which target and kill innocent civilians.

When a group of people is occupied by others or threatened with violence to be occupied, this group of people is very likely going to use many different types of bombs which target and kill innocent civilians, such as mines, nuclear bombs, city bombings, etc.

It is not fair to ignore many types of bombings and focus only on one type of bombing for the purpose of painting a picture of evil on a certain group of people since we dislike them or want to have their land. It is fair, however, to criticize everyone and condemn all types of bombings which target and kill innocent civilians.

The international community needs to place labels aside and focus on determining when terror is an acceptable for self-defense purposes, if at all, meaning that it needs to debate if mines, nuclear bombings and other types of bombings should be banned or under what conditions nations may murder innocent civilians with bombs to defend themselves. Until this happens, every nation will continue to define when they may use terror, such as mines, nuclear bombs and other bombings, as an acceptable form of self-defense.

[Phx_Dem]

5. very interesting article

One wonders what the motivation really is for suicide bombers. As the author points out, suicide bombing creates the exact opposite response that the Palestinians would hope for.

[barb162]

7. For the younger ones, I think they get very easily talked into these

things.
check the article below
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm

"snip
The Islamic Jihad is running a summer school - to teach boys the benefits of becoming suicide bombers.
ssnip
The boys are told not only that it is good to kill, but also that it is good to die.
snip

[Phx_Dem]

9. thanks for the link

very very sad. The last paragraph really sums up the irrational thinking that's going on at this "school":

"But the people in Gaza insist that this is a direct response to the Israeli occupation and if and when the Israelis leave Palestinian territory, the children will no longer be taught violence or dream of becoming suicide bombers. "

I suppose they will set up another "school" for deprogramming?

[barb162]

10. good point

[pelsar]

13. it wont be that easy.....

the occupation also includes hafia and tel aviv for some, so the occuaption will continue no matter what the settlement. And there will be those that need to continue that "school of thought"....they will believe in it and it wont be so easy to "turn them off." Worse they might bring it home to those "infidels" who have agreed to llve side by side with israel.

and to add to it, they're always iran which seems to have its own set of suicide bombers....and they're the ones who sent their own kids into minefields to "clear them" during their war with iraq....meaning they might object to the 'deprogramming"

all in all not only was it a dumb tactial decision, it was an even dumber strategic decsision.

[barb162]

27. "the occupation also includes hafia and tel aviv for some"

yeah, Zahar, Mishal, etal and their supporters plus so many others like Iran

[King Mongo]

26. During WWII...

...the English bombed the civilian areas of German cities in order to cause things like fear, frustration, etc. among the German populace. I don't remember how many thousands of German civilians they killed as a result of the bombings. Some Palestinians are achieving the same result and that's probably their intent. As we have seen in many wars the targetting of innocent civilians was done to weaken the enemy in one way or another.


It usually had little military purpose and was used mainly as a form of psychological warfare, in order to weaken morale of civilians...

...Aerial bombing had the practical effect of equating the citizens of a country with those who made the decision to take that country to war....

...The widespread use of the tactic of bombing civilian populations in World War II is a major reason that historians consider it a total war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bombing_of_cities

[cali]

15. This really is

an awful piece. I agree with bemildred that it's essentially propaganda couched in particularly torrid language.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

19. Yes - they RRRRRAWWWWWWWK!!!!!!!!!

[Phx_Dem]

18. not really understanding the propaganda aspect

I thought the main "thrust" of this article is that the use of suicide bombers represents an approach that over time will never help the Palestinians and their cause. Further, the psychological damage this "approach" causes is going to be extremely refractive.

[cali]

21. A lot of it's the tone;

suicide bombers are "soiling the name of Islam". He then goes on to call suicide the "ultimate pornography". It's how he couches his assessment of the act. He doesn't reach for any understanding of the people behind the acts. I am NOT defending suicide bombings, but looking at the act in isolation and essentially just saying, evil, evil, evil is all demonization and no elucidation.

[pelsar]

24. it more than "just evil"

because its not a single deranged person, but a systematic method of using people to kill themselves while blowing up civilians, it has repucussions within the society itself.

the value of human life is a basic building block of a democratic society, when one lessens that value by using the young, naive, innocent and brainwashed it has an effect on the society as a whole. More so, it doesnt even allow its mothers to mourn, thereby increasing its "dehumanizing effect" upon the society.

i dont claim to be a sociologist but the inability to mourns ones own son, seems to be a especially cruel.


and of course its the suicide bomber that is the main cause for the checkpoints and walls, before the suicide bomber appeared, they were few checkpoints with very quick ID checks. Hence the repercussions are beyond just the actual act but has affected the whole I/P conflict, and the populations.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Inability to mourn...

'i dont claim to be a sociologist but the inability to mourns ones own son, seems to be a especially cruel.

I haven't seen any evidence that Palestinian parents of suicide bombers don't mourn the loss of their children. I'm aware of the public bravado in front of cameras, but unless Palestinians are somehow people totally different and alien to any other type of people in the world, I've seen nothing to suggest that they don't mourn privately....

Violet...

[pelsar]

57. publicly....was what i intended...

The writer is a commentator on Israel affairs on Arab television stations and in the Arabic-language daily Asharq Al-Awsat.


It is a philosophy of death, which prefers death to life. A mendacious philosophy, which is fulfilled as if in the name of God and Islam. A racist philosophy that is based on the cruel principle of killing Jews because they are Jews,

And what is said about Palestinian mothers - that they glorify the acts of their suicidal children - is wrong. No mother wants her son to die.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/708066.html
-----

[Violet_Crumble]

59. Public mourning and glorication of deaths...

In some ways what those Palestinian mothers do isn't very different than what mothers of Allied troops did in WWI and II, and what Iranian mothers did during the Iran/Iraq war. They put aside their personal grief and portray an image of a mother who's nobly sacrificed her child for a greater cause. Except in the case of suicide-bombings, the murder of civilians make what they did anything but noble. But mothers are no different, whatever ethnicity they are. Don't make the mistake of believing that these Palestinian mothers don't feel deep pain at the loss of their child or would have preferred them to go out and kill themselves and others in the process. And something that should be noted is that parents of Palestinian suicide bombers, just like the parents and families of victims of suicide bombings, react differently. I remember the parents of a suicide bomber being angry at those who had recruited their child. I'm sure there's more like them that don't get a mention. But for the ones who do go down the public path of making a sacrifice for the greater good, I wish they wouldn't. I've seen parents of murderers in the US who've committed henious crimes and are facing execution apologise to the families of the victims for their children's crimes, so if they can do it I think anyone can...

Thanks for the link. There was nothing in there I disagreed with....

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

77. you are correct....

'Even though I am suffering, my suicide bomber son was a hero'

It is interesting to find that someone who murders innocents could ever be considered a "hero," but some seem to think so. Some of those Palestinian parents even hope that their child will be a 'martyr.' I think, that opinion, is what is really alien to most of us.

[Phx_Dem]

28. The reference to porn

was unnecessary, no doubt. I do not think he was asserting that the Pals were evil, but that the strategy of suicide bombing was not working at any level. This quote is particularly revealing:

"In the process, the bomber plays directly into the hands of those he or she hates the most, in particular, the settlers and the Jewish hard right.

Targeting, again and again, the heart of Tel Aviv, the very stronghold of Israeli sympathy for a Palestinian state and for withdrawal from the territories, the suicide bomber functions as the best possible proof of the rightist argument that Palestinians' aim is for all of the Holy Land, not just the West Bank and Gaza."

Maybe if the extremists on both sides could be marginalized by a clear refutation from the "middle" then real progress could be realized.

[barb162]

31. almost all, if not all, political opinion is propaganda...

right? And as mentioned above, I find it overly emotional. But then again if I knew people killed by bombers, I probably would think ohterwise

[Violet_Crumble]

76. That's not what you said in other threads...

In a thread on a senior Palestinian official saying the PA was no longer in control: 'please explain how mentioning gunfights in the streets, corruption, attacking election offices, etc., is somehow racist or propaganda.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=109455#109520

And this one where you agree with someone's opinion:

"I see this not as propaganda but as the highly educated and experienced thoughts of a person who knows these players and the situation far better than most people could ever dream; he was there and part of it. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=112847#113150

Violet...

[barb162]

86. See those words"almost all" in my post?

And there's a big diff between news articles and opinion pieces. Within the subject of opinion pieces there can be highly technical and/or first hand accounts to other opinion pieces simply commenting on situations where there is third party knowledge only. If you don't want to make distinctions among all the varieties and sub-varieties of printed news and opinion, that's fine with me, but please don't distort my comments and try to apply them or make them fit into something I never intended except for the particular story on which I was commenting.

[Violet_Crumble]

96. In other words...

If it's something you agree with it's not propaganda. Okay...

[barb162]

98. stop distorting my comments

[Tom Joad]

16. Hebron Jewish Settlements, A cult of racism, a culture of failure.

Hebron Jewish Settlers.

Racism is the ultimate pornography.

In the lexicon of racism, there are few acts more obscenely pornographic than human children, and young people, who target the young Palestinian girls who are walking to school, or an old man walking in his neighborhood. What can you say when the same woman who teaches Jewish settler kindergarten children is also the one who will often be seen brutalizing Palestinian residents? How is this possible in a civilized society? More importantly, why does this continue to happen, with Israeli government acquiescence or active support? Does this say something of Jewish Israeli political culture as a whole?

More info
http://telrumeidaproject.org/

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200507_South_Hebron.asp
Means of Expulsion: Violence, Harassment and Lawlessness Toward Palestinians in the Southern Hebron Hills

[barb162]

23. Hebron incidents 1929-95; Many Palestinian/Arab attacks on Jews

Note not much happened between 1929-67 as the Arabs did a pogrom against Jews. Yes racism is the ultimate porn


"ANNEX I: TERRORIST ATTACKS AND VIOLENT INCIDENTS IN HEBRON SINCE 1929
(The following list is intended to provide a representative -- not exhaustive -- summary of terrorist attacks and violent incidents which have occurred in Hebron since 1929.)



23.08.29 67 Jews (including women, children, and the elderly) were murdered, and 60 injured in a vicious pogrom which had been well-planned by Arab rioters. In the course of the pogrom, women were raped, homes and synagogues were plundered and burned, and Torah scrolls were desecrated and burned.
09.10.68 A 17 year-old Arab youth threw a grenade at Jews praying on the steps of the Tomb's main gate. 47 Jews, including an eight month-old baby, were injured.
05.11.68 A Jewish man and his son, an elderly Arab man, and three Arab children were injured by an explosive charge near the Tomb.
29.12.68 Terrorists attack a security post near the Tomb. One terrorist was killed; the others fled. No Israeli soldiers were injured.
07.08.76 Two Jews were wounded when terrorists shot at a tour bus in the city.
03.10.76 On the eve of Yom Kippur, a mob of Arab youths burst into the Tomb and desecrated several Torah scrolls. Three soldiers fired in the air in an attempt to prevent their entry. 61 rioters were arrested in the Tomb.
02.05.80 Arab terrorists ambushed a group of Jews returning from the Tomb to Beit Hadassah. Six Jews were murdered and 20 wounded.
21.05.80 A Molotov cocktail was thrown at an Israeli vehicle in Hebron. A Jewish woman was wounded.
02.06.80 11 Arabs, including four schoolchildren, were injured when a booby-trapped grenade exploded in the Hebron market.
16.12.80 An Arab resident of Hebron was wounded by a bomb at Glass Junction in Hebron.
10.02.81 A Jewish resident of Kiryat Arba was stabbed and wounded in the Hebron casbah.
07.07.83 Beit Romano Yeshiva student Aharon Gross was attacked and stabbed by three Arab youths in the market area. He later died of his wounds.
25.07.83 Jewish terrorists opened fire at the Islamic College in Hebron. Three students were murdered and approximately 30 wounded.
10.08.85 A Jewish resident of Kiryat Arba was stabbed and wounded in the Hebron casbah.
25.04.86 A 16-year old Jewish youth was stabbed and lightly wounded in the casbah.
06.06.86 A Jewish resident of Kiryat Arba was stabbed and wounded in the casbah.
14.09.86 A young Arab woman, the daughter of a local mukhtar, stabbed a soldier at the entrance to the Tomb. She was shot and killed.
16.10.86 A Jewish resident of Kiryat Arba was stabbed in the city.
25.10.92 Three Arab terrorists shot at soldiers guarding the Tomb's generator. One reserve soldier was murdered; two were wounded.
28.05.93 Yeshiva student Erez Shmuel was stabbed to death approximately 500 meters from from the Tomb, while on his way to Friday evening prayers at the Tomb.
06.12.93 Mordechai Lapid and his son Shalom were shot to death near Glass Junction in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility.
25.02.94 Kiryat Arba resident Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslim worshippers inside the Tomb, murdering 29 and wounding 125.
07.07.94 Sarit Prigal (17) was shot to death in a drive-by shooting, when terrorists opened fire from a passing car near the entrance to Kiryat Arba.
19.03.95 Nahum Hoss (31) of Hebron, and Yehuda Partus (34) of Kiryat Arba, were murdered by shots fired at their bus from a terrorist ambush near Glass Junction in Hebron. Six others were injured.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Israeli Foreign Ministry

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron.html

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

30. What are the 30,000 + Palestinian police doing either protecting

the Palestinians or the Israelis from criminal attacks. Take a look at the thread I started a few minutes ago about an explosion in an apt bldg in Hebron.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x123227

[Tom Joad]

32. The Palestinian police cannot touch the settlers ....

or protect Palestinians from settler attacks, and you "goddam well know it" as the wise and articulate jim sagle would say.

[barb162]

37. the Pal police can stop the Palestinians from attacking others

when they know of an attack that's being planned, etc

[Violet_Crumble]

42. No, they can't...

The Palestinians of Hebron are policed by the IDF. It's been that way for a hell of a long time...

[barb162]

51. let them call the IDF if they learn of an attack being planned

[Violet_Crumble]

60. How do you know they even know in advance?

The Hebron settlers certainly know in advance when attacks are going to be carried out on innocent civilians so why don't you demand that they call the IDF and let them know? Does it have something to do with whether the attack is being carried out by an Israeli or a Palestinian?

Violet...

[barb162]

68. IF they know in advance as mentioned to another poster

"The (Palestinian) settlers certainly know in advance when attacks are going to be carried out on innocent civilians so why don't you demand that they call the IDF (and Palestinian police) and let them know "...also. Just think if people from BOTH sides reported things being planned and BOTH authorities would work together to stop the planned events.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. Not likely to happen...

After all, as you said Israel shut down the joint police office a few weeks ago...

Violet..

[Tom Joad]

52. If the Israeli police cannot control Israeli attacks on civilians...

why is it the Palestinian police should have no problem?

Why do you hold Palestinian authorities to a higher standard than Israeli (mis)Authority.

Do also remember, the situation is not equal. Israel occupies Palestinian land. It is the Israeli government that is acting as the colonizer. It is not the other way around.

People throughout history have had armed resistance against colonialists. If you don't like the resistance, end the colonialism.

[barb162]

54. straw man arguments Tom

IF AND WHEN police learn of something, they should notify the other side and no one is being held to a higher standard. Oh and Tom, instead of discussing and/ or dissing the so-called colonizers, Hamas and others are terrorist organizations according to the US government, not the so-called colonizers. Big diff there.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. That wasn't a straw man at all...

The Hebron area is notorious for extremist settlers attacking Palestinians on a regular basis. So where are these instances when the IDF have notified the other side? When it comes to the attacks on Palestinian farmers trying to harvest their olive crops, it's been the Palestinians doing the warning, and the response either comes too late, or when it does come, it's the Palestinians who own the land who are sent away from their land while the settlers either destroy the trees and steal the olives with impunity. When they're lucky, the IDF will allow them onto the land for an hour or so to pick as much as they can...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

35. You already know that the IDF controls Hebron...

So why are you asking what the Palestinian police are doing when it's the IDF who deals with crime in that city?

Violet...

[barb162]

38. Do you think the Pal police ever get reports or info on attacks

being planned. Do they act on this info? It seems they have orders from both the Abbas and Hamas sides of the government that attacks on Israel are Israel's problem.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. They have no control in Hebron

The IDF control all the policing there. I'm not sure why you think the Palestinian police have any authority, let alone control there. They do not operate in Hebron...

Violet...

[barb162]

45. They couldn't call the IDF? They did have that until a few weeks

ago.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. They had what until a few weeks ago?

Sorry, barb, but yr making little sense here. Yr very keen on blaming Palestinian police who don't have the authority to do bugger all in Hebron for something they apparently should have known, yet not once have you blamed the IDF for not knowing of settler attacks on Palestinians before they happened. Why is that?

Violet...

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. Stop mimicking me...

I said you weren't making sense coz you weren't. If you think I'm making little sense, then why don't you do what I did and explain what I wasn't making sense about, instead of just repeating what I say parrot fashion?

Barb, the Israelis closed that post down. What's yr point?

I do find it amusing that you of all people accuse me of only seeing one side when I'm the one who opposes violence on both sides. Why is it that you never demand that the IDF should control the settlers who attack Palestinian civilians?

Violet...

[barb162]

69. Violet, why are you accusing me of not showing both sides when my

JDL list very clearely showed incidents on BOTH sides? And I think both sides should be stopping incidents from their own sides. The Israelis closed the post down I suspect because they knew they wouldn't be getting cooperation from Hamas with recent statememts about attacks on Israel would be Israel's problem.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. JDL list? Is that a slip of the tongue, barb?

I'd imagine any JDL list would get deleted, as terrorist groups aren't acceptable sources at DU, so I'm guessing that was a slip of the tongue and you meant Jewish Virtual Library...

Did you read the post yr replying to? I hate having to repeat myself over and over. A concise version of it is:

1. A post titled: 'Hebron incidents 1929-95; Many Palestinian/Arab attacks on Jews', which was not the title of the webpage at all. Naming a list that indicates a primary focus on Palestinian attacks on Jews, does it not?

2. All incidents of violence mentioned in posts after that post involved Palestinian violence towards Israelis...

Violet...

[barb162]

82. Nope, slip of the fingers . Here is the J-V-List in its unadorned

splendor showing incidents for BOTH sides 8/23/29-3/19/95 and I hope it is clear enough for you in this recital. If not, go to the link IMMEDIATELY BELOW:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron.html
"ANNEX I: TERRORIST ATTACKS AND VIOLENT INCIDENTS IN HEBRON SINCE 1929
(The following list is intended to provide a representative -- not exhaustive -- summary of terrorist attacks and violent incidents which have occurred in Hebron since 1929.)



23.08.29 67 Jews (including women, children, and the elderly) were murdered, and 60 injured in a vicious pogrom which had been well-planned by Arab rioters. In the course of the pogrom, women were raped, homes and synagogues were plundered and burned, and Torah scrolls were desecrated and burned.
09.10.68 A 17 year-old Arab youth threw a grenade at Jews praying on the steps of the Tomb's main gate. 47 Jews, including an eight month-old baby, were injured.
05.11.68 A Jewish man and his son, an elderly Arab man, and three Arab children were injured by an explosive charge near the Tomb.
29.12.68 Terrorists attack a security post near the Tomb. One terrorist was killed; the others fled. No Israeli soldiers were injured.
07.08.76 Two Jews were wounded when terrorists shot at a tour bus in the city.
03.10.76 On the eve of Yom Kippur, a mob of Arab youths burst into the Tomb and desecrated several Torah scrolls. Three soldiers fired in the air in an attempt to prevent their entry. 61 rioters were arrested in the Tomb.
02.05.80 Arab terrorists ambushed a group of Jews returning from the Tomb to Beit Hadassah. Six Jews were murdered and 20 wounded.
21.05.80 A Molotov cocktail was thrown at an Israeli vehicle in Hebron. A Jewish woman was wounded.
02.06.80 11 Arabs, including four schoolchildren, were injured when a booby-trapped grenade exploded in the Hebron market.
16.12.80 An Arab resident of Hebron was wounded by a bomb at Glass Junction in Hebron.
10.02.81 A Jewish resident of Kiryat Arba was stabbed and wounded in the Hebron casbah.
07.07.83 Beit Romano Yeshiva student Aharon Gross was attacked and stabbed by three Arab youths in the market area. He later died of his wounds.
25.07.83 Jewish terrorists opened fire at the Islamic College in Hebron. Three students were murdered and approximately 30 wounded.
10.08.85 A Jewish resident of Kiryat Arba was stabbed and wounded in the Hebron casbah.
25.04.86 A 16-year old Jewish youth was stabbed and lightly wounded in the casbah.
06.06.86 A Jewish resident of Kiryat Arba was stabbed and wounded in the casbah.
14.09.86 A young Arab woman, the daughter of a local mukhtar, stabbed a soldier at the entrance to the Tomb. She was shot and killed.
16.10.86 A Jewish resident of Kiryat Arba was stabbed in the city.
25.10.92 Three Arab terrorists shot at soldiers guarding the Tomb's generator. One reserve soldier was murdered; two were wounded.
28.05.93 Yeshiva student Erez Shmuel was stabbed to death approximately 500 meters from from the Tomb, while on his way to Friday evening prayers at the Tomb.
06.12.93 Mordechai Lapid and his son Shalom were shot to death near Glass Junction in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility.
25.02.94 Kiryat Arba resident Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslim worshippers inside the Tomb, murdering 29 and wounding 125.
07.07.94 Sarit Prigal (17) was shot to death in a drive-by shooting, when terrorists opened fire from a passing car near the entrance to Kiryat Arba.
19.03.95 Nahum Hoss (31) of Hebron, and Yehuda Partus (34) of Kiryat Arba, were murdered by shots fired at their bus from a terrorist ambush near Glass Junction in Hebron. Six others were injured."

[Violet_Crumble]

94. And you gave it a specific title..

'Hebron incidents 1929-95; Many Palestinian/Arab attacks on Jews' Both sides, my arse...

[barb162]

103. The title is very clearly in the top portion of the post

And it shows major attacks on BOTH sides

[Violet_Crumble]

104. And you named it something completely different and one-sided...

n/t

[Tom Joad]

53. Human Rights Workers & Palestinians *DO* call police.

The average response time is 20 minutes, even if an attack is in progress, even if it is avery short distance to the police station.

No arrest will ever take place on the street. palestinians are forced to go to the police station. That is a very difficult situation. It may take an hour or so before the Palestinian is allowed in, and then told there is no one available to take a statement. *If* they get an interview, they might be shown some photos of usually settlers not from the area. International human rights workers are barely treated better...

From the B'tselem website:
The police do little to enforce the law against the settlers, and the army does even less. In some cases, soldiers have even assisted settlers in carrying out their violent acts. On a few occasions, the army at its own initiative destroyed the residents' farmland by driving tanks and other armored vehicles onto the fields. In addition, the Civil Administration prohibits the residents from building in their villages, contending that the area is designated for agricultural use. The prohibition also covers construction to ensure proper water supply and to meet other basic needs.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200507_South_Hebron.asp

[barb162]

55. from the Guardian

snip The cave dwellers have been ignored by the Palestinian Authority and claim they do not care who rules the land so long as they are left in peace. Ironically, their most consistent friend has been the Israeli supreme court, which has overturned repeated Israeli army attempts to evict them.snip

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1312844,00.html
----------
I can't really comment on this group any further...I know very little about them and don't know if there are incidents arising from both sides

[Tom Joad]

56. Residents in the Hebron neighborhood of Tel Rumeida are also

under attack. I doubt they are getting any protection from the supreme court, but even less from the israeli army or police.

[barb162]

83. Can't comment on specific neighborhoods either way, Tom

info not readily available

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Barb, that reply had zero to do with what you were replying to...

If it did have any connection at all, it was coming across as an attempt to justify what the Hebron settlers are doing nowadays with their vicious attacks on Palestinian civilians, which I'm sure isn't what you intended. And attacks on civilians out of a political motive is terrorism, wouldn't you agree?

Violet...

[barb162]

39. Sorry, it did have everything to do with the poster message

And attacks and counter attacks coming across as an attempt to justify something is your own interpretation, not fact. There have been a lot of "vicious attacks" on BOTH sides as the listing shows and as recent incidents demonstrate. There was a drive -by shooting last year where two teens were killed and three injured near Hebron, for which AAMB claimed responsibility. I'd call that a "vicious attack" by Palestinians against Israelis, wouldn't you?

[Violet_Crumble]

41. No, it didn't...

All it had to do with the post was a weird attempt to justify the violence and thuggery of the extremist settlers in Hebron...

Violet...

[barb162]

44. Wrong. That list showed attacks on BOTH sides

And you might want to start indicating the "violence and thuggery" of both sides versus some chant about the so-called "extremist settlers in Hebron." Al Aqsa is pretty extremist.
And I would call the 2003 point-blank shooting/ murder of an Israeli and 7 month old infant by a Palestinian (IJ)terrorist who knocked on the door of a home near Hebron as violence, thuggery and murder.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. It was called 'Many Palestinian/Arab attacks on Jews'

And it was from a decidedly biased source which I know from first-hand experience is not interested in ensuring their material is accurate..

I might want to start indicating the violence and thuggery of both sides?? Sorry, but did I miss something here? I've never been backwards in coming forwards to say that I oppose violence against all civilians, regardless of whether they're Palestinian or Israeli. I have yet to see that from you, and it doesn't surprise me that you stay silent when it comes to settler attacks on Palestinians, yet repeatedly trot out attacks on Israelis as though they're the only attacks that matter...

Violet...

[barb162]

48. What do you call it when in the last two posts I mentioned BOTH

sides? See that? I will write it again. BOTH sides. AND what do you call it when the "list" I included above from JVL ( to another poster) shows attacks from 29-95 from BOTH sides. Get your facts straight!

[Violet_Crumble]

62. You said the words 'BOTH SIDES!!!!'

..but I just noticed that the title of yr post 'Hebron incidents 1929-95; Many Palestinian/Arab attacks on Jews' was a title you made up and it appeared nowhere on the page you linked to. Obviously yr focus was solely on the 'many Palestinian/Arab attacks on Jews'. And while you randomly inserted 'both sides! both sides!' into yr two recent posts, it's very telling that in both instances only mentioned instances of Palestinian attacks on Israelis were mentioned. Add that to the comment from you in the thread on the 79yr old being attacked by settlers: 'I wonder why the woman in the photo has a shoe in her hand It doesn't exactly look like she's about to put it on her foot, does it? Rather , more like it's about to go in the soldier's face.' Y'know, I actually thought before I clicked on the link that coz you hadn't said a word about how disgusting attacking a 79yr old was, that the picture would be of a settler with a shoe. I was disgusted when I clicked on it and found a photo of a Palestinian woman and realised what I was seeing was an attempt to divert attention away from the settlers attacking an elderly woman...

Here's a hint. Using the words 'both sides!' is much more convincing if the comments surrounding them suggest they're actually being said in a genuine manner...

Violet...

[barb162]

70. The JDL link is QUITE clear, Violet , in showing BOTH sides'

major incidents. Oh and speaking of NON-diversions, I wonder why the newspaper put that photo of the woman with the shoe in the story? Poor try, Violet; it seems to be part of the story

[Violet_Crumble]

75. It's not a JDL link, barb...

As I said before, JDL is a terrorist group...

Obviously the newspaper put a photo of a Palestinian woman there so people who aren't interested in 79yr old women being attacked by settlers can sit there and carry on about the Evil Shoe Incident. Oh, and the photo's there for people who don't like to read ;)

Violet...

[barb162]

84. see post 82 for JVL link showing incidents from BOTH sides

[Violet_Crumble]

95. Saw it and still see what you initially titled it...

If you wanted people to focus on BOTH sides, then why did you choose to title the list in a way that only talked of ONE side?

[pelsar]

58. bottom line....

as written so well by a palestenain:

it is a philosophy of death, which prefers death to life. A mendacious philosophy, which is fulfilled as if in the name of God and Islam. A racist philosophy that is based on the cruel principle of killing Jews because they are Jews, which characterized movements in history among which it is not a great honor to be numbered. It is a philosophy of war criminals, the goal of which is to murder innocent people walking down the street; hungry people who came to the restaurant to exchange their hard-earned money for food, foreign women who traveled thousands of kilometers to support their families, old people who decided to leave the house that day and walk down the street. People whom the murderers did not know at all, but whose lives they allowed themselves to cut short, though these people had done no wrong.

And it is a philosophy of cowardice. If someone wants to fight occupation, let them go and attack the occupying army, not innocent people in the street.

........
From the point of view of Palestinian society, this is a philosophy of self-destruction.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/708066.html

[barb162]

85. "... despair caused by Israeli actions does not justify terror".

"The argument of despair caused by Israeli actions does not justify terror."

Thanks for mentioning that article; escalation of attacks solves nothing

[Tom Joad]

87. despair from Palestinian actions does not justify Israeli terror.

escalation of Israeli attacks solves nothing.

Only an end to the colonialization of Palestine will bring peace.

It seems Israeli govt is more interested in their goal of a peaceful apartheid, and not interested in living as equals.

Peace & Apartheid will never coexist.

[barb162]

99. Israel is entitled to self defense

period.

[Englander]

100. No-one said it wasn't. n/t

[pelsar]

101. really?...

then perhaps explain the "legal" defense against kassams and mortors from gaza......something that can be done....


or is "silence" which translates to: israel dont do anything, let your citizens be terrorized the real defense

[Englander]

102. ~~

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=123041#123582