One Racist Nation. By Gideon Levy

[Tom Joad]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/698426.html

Contrary to appearances, the elections this week are important, because they will expose the true face of Israeli society and its hidden ambitions. More than 100 elected candidates will be sent to the Knesset on the basis of one ticket - the racism ticket. If we used to think that every two Israelis have three opinions, now it will be evident that nearly every Israeli has one opinion - racism. <snip>
An absolute majority of MKs in the next Knesset do not believe in peace, nor do they even want it - just like their voters - and worse than that, don't regard Palestinians as equal human beings. Racism has never had so many open supporters. It's the real hit of this election campaign.
<snip>
This gloomy chapter in the history of Israel began at Camp David, when Ehud Barak succeeded in planting the untruth that there is nobody to talk to on the Palestinian side, that we offered them the sky and they responded with violence. Then came the major terror attacks and Israeli society withdrew into a sickness of apathy never before known to it. <snip>
Nothing can awaken the Israelis from their coma - not the imprisonment of the nation next door, not the killing and destruction that we sow in their society and not the suffering of the weak among us.

Who would have believed that in Israel of 2006, the killing of an 8-year-old girl at short range, as happened last week in Yamoun, would barely be mentioned; that the ruthless attempt to expel an Ethiopian with AIDS who is married to an Israeli, just because he is not Jewish, would not raise hue and cry; and that the results of a poll showing that a majority of Israelis - 68 percent - don't want to live next to an Arab, did not raise a stink.
***************************************************

As if to back-up Gideon Levy's point, When i saw the article in Haaretz, there is an advert next to it for a conference called "Jerusalem Summit". It calls for a "humanitarian" solution to the problem, with "compensation" to "encourage" Palestinians to leave their homeland. It makes no mention of what will happen for those who refuse. The idea is to keep Israel "as the nation-state of the Jews". And, one must add, not a democracy for all that live there.

[tatertop]

1. Thank you for the pure unvarnished truth

[barb162]

102. it's one-sided drool

[Missy M]

2. You would think Israel would be the last nation on earth to....

be racist. Perhaps the US should rethink all the monetary and military support given to Israel unless they change their ways.

[acmavm]

3. Oh geez. The usual cast of characters should descend any minute now.

:popcorn:

[mike_c]

4. apartheid and its driving motive-- naked racism-- are alive and well...

...in Israel.

[Tom Joad]

5. Remarks from Desmund Tutu and others say that it is much worse

than South African apartheid.

[barb162]

106. Is Tutu a scholar on the Israel Palestinian situation?

[tocqueville]

6. I wrote something similar (with lower figures) 6 months ago

based on articles in Israeli magazines and was automatically called anti-semite...

[Tom Joad]

7. No death threats? That's what is happening to Uri Avnery. eom

[tocqueville]

11. naw I wrote that in a response here to a post on DU

I gave up

[Poll_Blind]

58. The Likudniks are now laying out BLANKET accusations of anti-semitism.

Re: The Harvard paper thread- one "scholarly" poster confidently proclaimed that anyone or anything giving ANY credibility to the paper, of any sort, was anti-semitic.

Those who sling the calumny of anti-semitism so casually are doing nothing more than splashing in a bathtub. Their world view extends no farther than what they may slap at or curse.

PB

[MrPrax]

8. Oh Perish the Thought...

Have the supporters of Baruch Goldstein managed to get their demand for a 'national holiday' on the ballot yet...maybe next time, huh?

Shhh...it's a secret.

[pelsar]

9. racism all over...

no question about it..israelis are probably more racist than americans, french, british, spanish, etc...they all have such wonderful non racist societies....

shall we ask the blacks in New Orleans, the muslim youth of France, the real natives of austrialia, the pakistanis living in Britian.......the whites of zimbabwa?

israel is so so bad....that the bedouin havent yet rioted and burnd down cars and neighborhoods as others have done in France, and the US......

but israel is worse...so bad are the israelis that its probably about time to disband the country...such racism cannot be allowed to continue on this earth...so bad are those israelis that they should be...well treated like gays in iran, blacks in the states, muslims in Denmark, kurds in syria, christians in saudi arabia......

words fail me just thinking of those racist israelis...especially as they now go to the polls and elects some selfish govt who wont even care about the palestenians.......disgusting

[Tom Joad]

10. Israeli army has "rioted" and bulldozed homes in Jenin, Gaza,

greater Jerusalem, and many other areas of the West Bank. Forcing tens of thousands forced to find alternative housing These demolitions are all paid for by our very racist & supportive government in the United States.

That is the kind of lawlessness we should address.

If the subject were the problems of Gays in Iran, it would be inappropriate to bring up the problem of Palestinians under Israeli occupation. Let's deal with the subject at hand.

[pelsar]

12. the "subject at hand"

i would have no problem critiizing the israeli govt, its policies, its inequalities, its injustices ...and in fact probably know far more than you on the subject.....

but to get there, one has to deal with the subjects realistically..and that means keeping to a single standard, understanding the limitations of both people and technologies.....looking at how other countries attempt or dont attempt to solve their similar and or dissimaler problems vis vis israel......

and then israel can be discussed seriously. The initial topic here with the subsequent remarks are simply BS. Is israel really racists country?...by which measurement...are they're countries less racist?.....which ones?......

and most important when discussing the situation...stick to real definitions......the forcing of arabs/palestenains out of their homes is not via "lawlessness"....in fact its done via the law....stop raping the words and you can then have a decent conversation.

and again the IDF hasnt "rioted".....use a dictionary if your not sure of the proper usage

[Tom Joad]

13. Whose law?

What laws are you going to cite?

Why do organizatations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and so many others say that this practice is in violation of internatinal law?

Stop attempting to deny the reality on the ground.

From Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions
http://www.icahd.org/eng/ (See FAQ)

Are Israel's house demolitions legal under international law?
No. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention Occupying Powers are prohibited from destroying Palestinian property or employing collective punishment. Article 53 reads: “Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons…is prohibited." Under this provision the practice of demolishing Palestinian houses is banned, as is the wholesale destruction of the Palestinian infrastructure.

How many houses have been demolished since the Occupation began.
Since 1967, 12,000 houses Palestinian homes have been demolished in the Occupied Territories, including East Jerusalem. Israel’s policy of house demolitions seeks to confine Palestinians to small enclaves, leaving most of the land free for Israeli settlement.

The vast majority of house demolitions in the Occupied Territories are conducted for Israeli 'administrative reasons'. Can this be justified under International Law?
The Fourth Geneva Convention (article 53) states: "Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities. or to social or co-operative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations."

[pelsar]

43. which law indeed....

whether israeli law or international law....what your writing is simply false.

you used the word "lawlessness"...and rioting....perhaps an explanation of using words that "dont fit" is in order?

is this one of those cases of using words that incite, to creat even greater tension?....an attempt to give the less knowledgable a false view of the conflict? why create additional tension?

[barb162]

101. The Geneva Convention gives Israel the right to protect itself

"...is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations." If someone is shooting from these buildings, Israel can take military action

[barb162]

103. The Israeli Army has not rioted

[Violet_Crumble]

82. Gideon Levy did NOT say that Israelis were more racist...

What is this? Even though this is the I/P forum we're expected to do a tally of which country is most racist and when anyone talks about racism in any other country, especially one that's involved in the conflict that this forum is here for, we'll go 'shall we ask...' and then trot out a list of countries we think are racist in order to divert attention...

btw, yr claim that if a group of people aren't rioting then the country being racist towards them can't be too bad is so very wrong. The racism against Australian Aboriginals began with European settlement and continued unabated. There were no uprisings, no riots, no nothing. And the reason for that was because being nomadic tribes who weren't that large in number to start with, the overwhelming force of the Europeans gave them no chance to resist. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples like that around....

Violet...

[Chulanowa]

14. The problem arises

...from the very nature of the Israeli state. It's defined by the phrase "Jewish Homeland" - So what happens if Israel is no longer predominantly Jewish? it fceases being Israel, doesn't it? Thus in order to maintain not only national identity, but the nation itself, hard-line racist and dogmatist policies must be undertaken.

Put simply, even without terrorism, strife, and violence, Israel would cease to exist in 20 years were it not for the double-whammy of unlimited Jewish immigration and anti-Arab policy and actions.

[bemildred]

15. Duh. Exactly.

Like USA-ians worrying about all those latinos or the French worrying about all that cheap labor they imported, or the UK with all it's ex-colonial citizens, and others too numerous to mention, purity has its cost.

[Boojatta]

16. "purity has its cost"

That comment would be very appropriate if, for example, this thread were about an Israeli rabbi who was stripped of his Israeli citizenship because the government of Israel discovered that his father was an Arab.

[Jim Sagle]

18. Purity ALWAYS has its cost. That includes the purity of moral

superiority.

It's an exterminatist purity.

[bemildred]

21. Moral purity ain't nothing but shit.

:headbang::headbang:

[Jim Sagle]

31. Your choice of writers to emulate is indubitabubbly spot on!

[bemildred]

20. It is very appropriate. nt

[Boojatta]

23. The title of this thread is "One Racist Nation", so if the comment

"purity has its costs" is very appropriate, then is it only pure ethnic Jews who have ever been persecuted and found a haven in Israel?

Are there large numbers of people throughout the Middle East who are believed, by governments of the Middle East and the general public in the Middle East, to be partly Jewish by ethnicity?

Was it safe for people who openly identified themselves as having two Jewish grandparents to live throughout the Second World War in Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, the Netherlands, etc?

[bemildred]

27. Dang, I must have hit a sore spot.

All of a sudden people are annoyed with me. All of a sudden a place where you worry about getting blown up all the time is a "haven". The persecution of the Jews is (and was) perfectly real, and despicable. The assertion that the present state of Israel is some sort of permanent solution to that, or even a good temporary one, is very questionable.

There is no such thing as a pure ethnic Jew, that notion is a political fiction, as is any other sort of purity.

[Boojatta]

34. Who said that Israel became a haven suddenly?

You missed these questions:

Are there large numbers of people throughout the Middle East who are believed, by governments of the Middle East and the general public in the Middle East, to be partly Jewish by ethnicity?

Was it safe for people who openly identified themselves as having two Jewish grandparents to live throughout the Second World War in Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, the Netherlands, etc?

[bemildred]

35. Yes, I ignored those deliberately.

The answers are obvious.

[Boojatta]

40. Sometimes it's only a short step from the obvious to the profound.

When the obvious is not at all profound, at least it's not difficult and, by gradual steps, it can lead to more advanced issues.

[bemildred]

44. And sometimes it is just an obvious attempt to shift the subject

to something that one prefers, something where one
feels on firmer ground.

[bemildred]

22. The problem is that the world is just full of people who are not like you

or me, and we all have to get along, or we are just going to keep on screwing ourselves like we have been; and you can't get along very well if you are obsessed with not having anybody who is not like you in your neighborhood. I do not mean to imply that this is a problem that is particular to Jews, or Israelis, or Muslims, or white people, it is not; but it IS the problem. And if you are going to start blathering at me about how "they" are trying to kill you, well you are right, and that is STILL the problem, and "you" are trying to kill them too. Duh.

[Boojatta]

25. There are many problems. Where is racial purity and what is its cost?

And if you are going to start blathering at me about how "they" are trying to kill you, well you are right, and that is STILL the problem, and "you" are trying to kill them too. Duh.

I'm not trying to kill anybody and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody is trying to kill me.

Is some quantity of non-Jewish ancestry an excuse used by Jews to persecute (or deny opportunities to) people who are partly non-Jewish?

Is some quantity of Jewish ancestry an excuse used by non-Jews to persecute (or deny opportunities to) people who are partly Jewish? For example, the chess player Garry Kasparov was born Gary Weinstein. Was the name change motivated by nothing but arbitrary personal preference or paranoia?

[bemildred]

28. That is why "you" is in quotes.

There is no quantity of Jewish or non-Jewish ancestry that excuses anything. I am not excusing anything. Why do people always want to talk about excusing things, I'm not trying to excuse anything. What is up with that?

[Boojatta]

30. I did not intend to suggest that you were excusing something.

Apparently what I wrote has possible interpretations that I had not considered.

[bemildred]

33. I did answer your question.

To reiterate: persecution is never excused by one's ancestry, or who one's parents are. Nevertheless, it is a popular activity. As for your speculation about possible interpretations of what you said, I would say that is so. God knows I get some wierd interpretations as to what I was talking about here. Kasparov is a great chess player, and a fine human being AFAIK. He can call himself anything he likes by me.

[Boojatta]

75. Who demands what kind of purity and what are the costs of that demand?

Did any people who were known to have two Jewish grandparents and two non-Jewish grandparents and who lived either in parts of the Middle East outside of Palestine/Israel or in Europe go to Israel?

Did Israel welcome such people?

Would Israel welcome such people today?

If Israel would welcome them today, then what purity are you talking about?

[Boojatta]

76. Do USA-ians worry about those Latinos who have two Mayan grandparents

and two Spanish grandparents?

[mike_c]

24. just like white south africa was an "Afrikaner homeland...."

eom

[Jim Sagle]

17. Check out Katrina. Houston. New Mexico. Florida.

Then get back to me about racism.

[Tom Joad]

19. Same people supporting the racism in New Orleans are supporting

it in Israel.

many of the people who are fighting for justice for the people of New Orleans are also for justice for all in Israel/Palestine.

Also, I don't think that it is logical or helpful to say that there are problems elsewhere (there certainly are problems elsewhere) that we can ignore the very real problems in a state that recieves so much military aid from the United States, including aid to make possible the very things that creates the strife and divisions. If Israel were not spending US money to build settlements in occupied land, there would be less problems in Israel/Palestine. So this is as much a US issue as it is a problem for Israel/Palestine.

Take away US funding for Israel policy initiatives, then we can talk about ignoring them.

[Jim Sagle]

26. Israel is evacuating settlements, not building more. Do try to keep up.

[Tom Joad]

37. Israel is also expanding settlements, there is no net loss

The Kadima party wants to unilaterally annex these settlements and land to Israel. The final plan is for Palestinians to eke out an existence on about 5 bantustans, and for Israel to take the rest. Israel is evacuating a few isolated outposts in the West Bank. There never were many settlers in gaza.

Jimmy Carter:
He said Israel was insincere at peace negotiations during the 1990s when it offered to withdraw only a small proportion of the 225,000 settlers living in the West Bank. "Their best official offer to the Palestinians was to withdraw 20% of them, leaving 180,000 in 209 settlements, covering about 5% of the occupied land," he said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1733742,00.html

Jimmy Carter Rawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwks!

[barb162]

105. If you wait long enough, maybe someone will tell you there are

still Israeli settlements in Gaza and that it must be Israelis firing qassams on other Israelis

[Boojatta]

32. Isn't US support for Israel pretty insignificant in the big picture?

Yes, I can see that the US is like the widow who only has a little and for that reason Israel should appreciate receiving a few copper coins from the widow.

Suppose the US stops giving any financial support to Israel tomorrow and from now on votes against Israel at the United Nations. Would it make any difference?

Palestinians have nowhere to go. Obviously the whole world is against the Palestinians. Admittedly, there are a lot of neutral countries. However, the Israel-Palestine controversy is also very polarizing. Many countries do take sides on the issue. Those countries aren't taking the side of the Palestinians, so obviously they must be taking Israel's side. Hence, withdrawal of financial and voting support by the US would not matter. Right?

[Tom Joad]

36. I think $5 billion per year is more than a poor widows pennies.

It works out to something like 1000 bucks per Israeli citizen. I am not sure you can call that inconsequential, B.

And i think you are wrong to say the whole world is against the Palestinians, in fact, the opposite is true (to some extent). When the whole world brings something up in the security council in regards to Israeli actions, it is often only the United States that vetoes it. When it is before the United Nations as a whole, it is only the US and maybe some island completely dependent on US goodwill that votes with the US, (and those islands may disappear with global warming, so Israeli militarists will lose yet another friend).

But if it weren't for the US, the security council could have taken stronger actions in regards to settlements (which even the US has long recognized as illegal) and many other things. It would have made a world of difference, it would have helped the situation immensely.

Palestinains do not want to go anywhere. They want to stay and live in their homeland. It is not a matter of taking sides with Palestinians or Israelis, it should be a matter of standing for human rights and freedoms.

[Boojatta]

38. "the opposite is true (to some extent)"

And i think you are wrong to say the whole world is against the Palestinians, in fact, the opposite is true (to some extent).

What if many governments want to use the Palestinians as a designated victim to take sides against Israel? In that case, a lot of the world is anti-Israel, but only pro-Palestinian to the extent of using Palestinians. Who wants to be used?

I do not dispute your statements re amount of financial support and voting at the UN.

[Tom Joad]

41. You may be right in some sense.

I think many arab dictatorships only give lip-service in many instances to the Palestinian cause, and permit protests against Israel policies (fine, go protest Israeli policies they say, just don't rock the boat here!). I could probably find Edward Said quotes on that subject.

I think the Palestinian cause has great sympathy among the worlds people. Many people relate to resisting colonialization and domination by others.

And the extreme one-sidedness of the United States has very little support anywhere. I do think few nations have the ability (or the desire) to confront the US on this issue, but there is very little active support for the total lack of even-handedness of the US.

[Boojatta]

39. "Palestinians do not want to go anywhere."

Are they like a chain gang? Do they have to travel as one big group?

[Tom Joad]

42. No, they want to live in their homes and their villages in peace.

Or return to their homes and villages and live in peace, many have been expelled from their villages. Without walls, military occupation, or checkpoints. They would like to live there lives like most people in the world.

I am not sure what you mean, exactly. Yes, individual Palestinians may want to go any number of places, can't speak for each one. But i think the vast majority do not want to leave their homeland, or would be quite content to do so.

[Phx_Dem]

46. good point

"...it should be a matter of standing for human rights and freedoms."

I could not agree more, poeple should have equal rights under the law, whether you are a man or woman.

People should be able to live their lives w/out the worry that a suicide bomber is going to kill them and their family.

People should be able follow the religion of their choice with out being executed by the state.

[Tom Joad]

47. People should also be able to live their lives without fear their home

will be bulldozed, that they will be able to access the crops their families have raised for generations, that they will be treated with dignity and respect. They will be free of military occupation.

[Phx_Dem]

49. your right

So maybe if the pals stop using illegal means of protest, their rights would improve and they could finally obtain the homeland they want.

[Tom Joad]

51. The sad fact is, that even when they use legal means of protest,

they are met with incredible violence and military opposition.

You may not know that there has been an courageous campaign against the Wall that is being illegally being built in the occupied West Bank. Ghasson Andoni is one of the people who is leading that campaign, and he has been nominated by the American Friends Service Comm. for the Noble Peace Prize... see here... http://afsc.org/israel-palestine/news/Ghassan-Andoni-Statement.html

The fact that Palestinians and Israel dissidents along with internationals from around the world is doing this work is mostly unreported, but real nonetheless. Almost every week villagers in Bil'lin gather to protest the very real threat to their very existence as a community. Their nonviolent presence has often been met with sound bombs, rubber bullets, sometimes live ammunition. Yet they go back to protest the next week, resolute and determined to resist this atrocity.
http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/category/bilin/

Finally, why is the burden placed on the oppressed to find the right way to resist their oppression? It is the same strange idea that inspired countless white "liberals" to give advice to African Americans as to how to end racism... while that energy would have been better spent dismantling the racist laws and structures of American society (you may have read how Martin Luther King grew so impatient with such unsolicited advice). Why not insist that Israel apply international law, withdraw from the occupied territories completely and without delay? Demolish the Annexation Wall that is built illegally in Palestinian land, and start recognizing the human rights of Palestinians. It is important for us, as Americans, to make sure our tax money, a very considerable amount, is not spent supporting oppression and colonialism.

[Phx_Dem]

56. It is tragic for everyone involved

"they are met with incredible violence and military opposition."

I don't accept that as fact.

"...against the Wall that is being illegally being built in the occupied West Bank."

The wall is not illegal, that's your OPINION. And yes I know what the UN has said, but as all informed people know, the UN General Assembly is a joke.

I like the link you posted:

"...has for too long accepted the myth that only violence and the threat of violence can produce stability and create peace. The reality is that violence has not brought peace, and the threat of violence has only exacerbated the conflicts."

Too bad the Pals and their supporters can't seem to understand this statement.

[Violet_Crumble]

83. Is the International Court of Justice a joke too?

Because the ICJ has said that the wall is illegal.

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/imwp/imwp_advisory_opinion/imwp_advisory_opinion_20040709.htm

Or aren't they 'informed people'? ;)

Violet...

[Phx_Dem]

89. yes

Hey, let's take a look at who testified at this hearing:

12. In the course of hearings held from 23 to 25 February 2004, the Court heard oral statements, in the following order, by:

For Palestine: H.E. Mr. Nasser Al‑Kidwa, Ambassador, Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations,

Ms Stephanie Koury, Member, Negotiations Support Unit, Counsel,

Mr. James Crawford, S.C., Whewell Professor of International Law, University of Cambridge, Member of the Institute of International Law, Counsel and Advocate,

Mr. Georges Abi‑Saab, Professor of International Law, Graduate Institute of International Studies, Geneva, Member of the Institute of International Law, Counsel and Advocate,

Mr. Vaughan Lowe, Chichele Professor of International Law, University of Oxford, Counsel and Advocate,

Mr. Jean Salmon, Professor Emeritus of International Law, Université libre de Bruxelles, Member of the Institute of International Law, Counsel and Advocate;

For the Republic of South Africa: H.E. Mr. Aziz Pahad, Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs, Head of Delegation,

Judge M. R. W. Madlanga, S.C.;

For the People’s Democratic Mr. Ahmed Laraba, Professor of International Law;

Republic of Algeria:

For the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: H.E. Mr. Fawzi A. Shobokshi, Ambassador and Permanent Representative of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to the United Nations in New York, Head of Delegation;



For the People’s Republic H.E. Mr. Liaquat Ali Choudhury, Ambassador of the
of Bangladesh: People’s Republic of Bangladesh to the Kingdom of the Netherlands;

For Belize: Mr. Jean‑Marc Sorel, Professor at the University of Paris I (Panthéon‑Sorbonne);

For the Republic of Cuba: H.E. Mr. Abelardo Moreno Fernández, Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs;

For the Republic of Indonesia: H.E. Mr. Mohammad Jusuf, Ambassador of the Republic of Indonesia to the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Head of Delegation;

For the Hashemite Kingdom H.R.H. Ambassador Zeid Ra’ad Zeid Al-Hussein,
of Jordan: Permanent Representative of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to the United Nations, New York, Head of Delegation,

Sir Arthur Watts, K.C.M.G., Q.C., Senior Legal Adviser to the Government of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan;

For the Republic of Madagascar: H.E. Mr. Alfred Rambeloson, Permanent Representative of Madagascar to the Office of the United Nations at Geneva and to the Specialized Agencies, Head of Delegation;

For Malaysia: H.E. Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar, Foreign Minister of Malaysia, Head of Delegation;

For the Republic of Senegal: H.E. Mr. Saliou Cissé, Ambassador of the Republic of Senegal to the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Head of Delegation;

For the Republic of the Sudan: H.E. Mr. Abuelgasim A. Idris, Ambassador of the Republic of the Sudan to the Kingdom of the Netherlands;

For the League of Arab States: Mr. Michael Bothe, Professor of Law, Head of the Legal Team;

For the Organization of the H.E. Mr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary General of the
Islamic Conference: Organization of the Islamic Conference,



They did include this little tidbit:

141. The fact remains that Israel has to face numerous indiscriminate and deadly acts of violence against its civilian population. It has the right, and indeed the duty, to respond in order to protect the life of its citizens. The measures taken are bound nonetheless to remain in conformity with applicable international law.

and this:

The Court would emphasize that both Israel and Palestine are under an obligation scrupulously to observe the rules of international humanitarian law, one of the paramount purposes of which is to protect civilian life.

[barb162]

107. The fact is the wall and checkpoints are stopping a lot of terrorism

[Englander]

109. They *are* terrorism. n/t

[barb162]

108. It's funny you forget to mention how much the US gives the Pals

decade after decade

[Coastie for Truth]

52. If you want to raise Katrina...

The append contains the statement:"Same people supporting the racism in New Orleans are supporting it in Israel. many of the people who are fighting for justice for the people of New Orleans are also for justice for all in Israel/Palestine."

You may consider me a racist - but through September I was at temporary housing in our community working with and helping the Katrina Refugees.

Since then I have been responding to calls for assistance through the Red Cross. There is one hell of a lot "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder" among the refugees - especially the kids.

I had one response where the fire sprinklers in a refugee family's apartment "failed" - flooded the apartment, and set of the fire alarm. The three kids were positively catatonic. Lower Ninth Ward to Superdome to Astrodome to temporary housing to scatter site Section VIII housing in three and a half months.

It's winding down, but has been going on since Katrina.

I guess that makes me as a Neocon, PNACer, AIPACer, Likudnik.

Let's look at one of the alleged "Right Wing, PNACer, Neocon, Zionist" organizations. Chabad. Typically mocked as those guys with the black hats and the strings sticking out of their shirts.

My "cubicle mate" from my Coast Guard days in New Orleans was in the leadership of the Chabad relief effort. For "level of effort" Chabad of Houston and Chabad of Louisiana outdid the Red Cross and the Salvation Army in providing housing and food and clothing for the Katrina Refugees -- and not just for the Jewish refugees, but for all refugees. (They also saved all of the Torah scrolls in New Orleans - five big temples).

As I mentioned, one of the leaders of the Chabad effort was my "cubicle mate" from my Coast Guard days in New Orleans. He is a ZOA and AIPAC member (that is the sociology of Jewish communities in the South - if you haven't lived there don't criticize) and a leader in the New Orleans Jewish Community, and a Ba'al T'shuva (Born Again) Lubavitcher.

So, I guess by some DUer's definitions, he is a racist. Having served with him, he is no racist. He was battling for racial justice in rural Louisiana in the 1960's - when doing so was not safe. And having seen first hand his efforts for the Coast Guard families hit by tragedy (Pt. Welcome, Tanager, Blackthorn) - he is a humanitarian.

So, I really don't understand the append.

[Englander]

53. Post #17 'raised Katrina'. Did you not see that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=119969&mesg_id=119999

[Tom Joad]

55. I was writing about the support that *some* give to ethnic cleansing

in New Orleans (Pres. Bush comes to mind) and the support that Bush and some others give to ethnic cleansing in Palestine. And more to the point, that many of those who are fighting for justice for the people of New Orleans are also fighting for human rights in Palestine/Israel. In other words, for many, including myself, the struggle for justice is one, from New Orleans to Gaza City, from the molehills of Mississippi to the Balata refugee camp near Nablus. I thought the post i was responding to was just an attempt to divert the focus from what is happening in Israel/Palestine and excuse Israeli policies.

Believe it or not, the append was not about Coastie,or your friends. My opinion of you is not really relevant to the Israel/Palestine situation, or US policy in the region, and that is the focus of this forum.

edited for emphasis and clarity.

[Boojatta]

29. Is that supposed to say "just because he is not completely Jewish"?

"the ruthless attempt to expel an Ethiopian with AIDS who is married to an Israeli, just because he is not Jewish"

[Phx_Dem]

45. Revisionism again

"began at Camp David, when Ehud Barak succeeded in planting the untruth that there is nobody to talk to on the Palestinian side...blah blah blah"

The Pals were offered a country, they walk away from the table and it's the Israelis fault (according to this individual)

You know the problem with this forum is that there is no consensus as to the facts, which is why there never is any agreement on anything. In REALITY, the Israeli gov was negotiating in good faith with the pals, it was the Pal "leadership" that decided that they could "negotiate" better if they start killing innocent people. IMO they are as morally challenged as the neocons are, which is why they have resorted to revisionism and propaganga.

[Tom Joad]

48. "This individual" knows more about the situation....

Gideon Levy, who lives in Israel, is very aware of what was offered and what was not offered.

Many other people, who have taken an honest look at the situation, agree.

Jimmy Carter for one:

Mr Carter also questioned Israel's commitment to the US-led "road map" peace process. "Israel has officially rejected its basic premises with patently unacceptable caveats and prerequisites," he said.

He said Israel was insincere at peace negotiations during the 1990s when it offered to withdraw only a small proportion of the 225,000 settlers living in the West Bank. "Their best official offer to the Palestinians was to withdraw 20% of them, leaving 180,000 in 209 settlements, covering about 5% of the occupied land," he said.

"The 5% figure is grossly misleading, with surrounding areas taken or earmarked for expansion, roadways joining settlements with each other and to Jerusalem, and wide arterial swaths providing water, sewage, electricity and communications. This intricate honeycomb divides the entire West Bank into multiple fragments, often uninhabitable or even unreachable."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1733742,00.html

Another tragedy is that for the last 5 years the Israeli govt has refused to negotiate seriously with the Palestinian leadership. Nothing but home demolitions, land confiscations, illegally expanding settlements (even with the Gaza withdraw, Israel has taken more land than ever), it is really a tragedy for both sides.

[Phx_Dem]

50. President Carter

is entitled to his opinion.

"This will never be acceptable either to Palestinians or to the international community, and will inevitably precipitate increased tension and violence within Palestine, and stronger resentment and animosity from the Arab world against America, which will be held accountable for the plight of the Palestinians."

Seems to me that Jimmy is more worried about how it "looks" than what is fair.

"But he said Hamas would renounce violence and recognise the Jewish state only when Israel recognised "a Palestinian state within the boundaries of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem"."

So it's all on the Israelies, nothing from the Pals, real fair and balanced.

"He said Israel was insincere at peace negotiations ...."

He's reading peoples minds now?

[barb162]

104. He has been very incorrect in his mind-reading lately

[Englander]

54. That's complete nonsense. n/t

[Phx_Dem]

57. nice argument

don't strain yourself or anything....

[Poll_Blind]

59. LOL! This, from the "nuttin but craaap" crowd? For shame! n/t

PB

[Phx_Dem]

60. for what it's worth

I don't get your insult.

I object to historical revisionism, I don't care whether it's Pal/Israel supporters or neocons, it's all the same to me.

Bottom line is that the Israelis were negotiating in good faith, you can say it's not true a million and one times, doesn't change the facts.

[Djinn]

72. given much of your argument

has consisted of "I don't beleive that", "that's not true" and "that's just opinion" (when it's actually not) there's a wee bit of a "pot/kettle/black" whiff about that post

[Englander]

80. Hi Djinn! n/t

[Englander]

79. So, prove me wrong. Provide some factual, objective opinion. n/t

[idontwantaname]

61. the facts...

so i only decided to jump into this because you seem very confident you "know the facts" or something of this sort. perhaps you know half the story and choose not to fill in the rest because you consider it inferior or irrelevent... however i question your knowledge of camp david... and "the facts" in general.

do you know what intifada I was about? do you know how many palestinians were killed during this time???

and let me ask you this age old question: if i steal 2 things from you, and offer to give part of 1 back would you accept this offer?

would you consider my offer an act of "negotiating in good faith"?

[Phx_Dem]

67. I'm sure there are many people

who know more about the Camp David talks than me, but my basic assertion is sound, we are not talking about quamtun physics here.

"and let me ask you this age old question: if i steal 2 things from you, and offer to give part of 1 back would you accept this offer?"

you are approaching this from a biased position, why don't you try and rephrase this using non-pejorative words and then we can talk.

[idontwantaname]

68. ill play.

would please share your analysis of what all happened at camp david, as i cam curious what youve heard/read... and what you know of what arafat was offered.

[Phx_Dem]

69. Sure

Camp David:
Lastly, the biggest consequence of all may be in the psychology of the participants of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The success of Begin, Sadat, and Carter at Camp David demonstrated to other Arab states and entities that negotiations with Israel were possible — that progress results only from sustained efforts at communication and cooperation. Despite the disappointing conclusion of the 1993 Oslo Accords between the PLO and Israel, and even though the 1994 Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace has not fully normalized relations with Israel, both of these significant developments had little chance of occurring without the precedent set by Camp David.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accord#Terms_of_the_agreements

Oslo:

The Palestinian reactions to the accords were not homogeneous, either. The Fatah accepted the accords, but the Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, which were known as the "refusal organizations", objected to the accords since they completely denounced Israel's right to exist, refusing to recognize what they dubbed the "Zionist entity". Their resistance was expressed in their acts of terror.

The Israelis trust in the accord was undermined also by the fact that after the signing of the accord the terrorist attacks against Israel did not cease and even intensified, which could be explained as an attempt of the terror organizations to thwart the peace process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords#Minute_A:_General_understandings

[idontwantaname]

71. what is written and what is experienced...

ok. so ill start with oslo.
many folks i know say arafat "sold out" "his people" when agreeing to oslo. regardless of how he(arafat) or abbas felt, the palestinians (as a population) experienced no benefits from its signing. their experience in fact was very different than their israeli counterparts.

if you were to ask palestinians what went wrong during the time between oslo and intifada II they would most likely tell you that:

1- illegal settlement activity(land confiscation) continued, both to physically displace palestinians and was a show that any form of a palestinian state was not taken seriously...
2- israeli military checkpoints made travel difficult and introduced a new level of daily harassment and intimidation...
3- the economy got worse and joblessness rose...

(on edit: actually these are very similar symptoms that the US occupation of iraq is facing)

-----------------------

please let me know what you think of this post before i/we continue to "arafats offer"

[pelsar]

78. i think i'd better play....

since the time schedule of what happened when is what its all about:

now i 'm not even going to pretend to know really what was going on between Ararfat and Barak...i will however relate to a few pieces of hard evidence on the ground...via experience:

Intifada I was a peoples rebellion involving women and kids of all ages and disorganized

Intifada II was not..it was young and organized.

during camp david (i was in the reserves on in the westbank)...we were told if they "fail", and even if they didn't what to expect..and we were all veterens of Intifada I...we were told to expect sniper fire (the ones who were practicing every evening under the cover of "weddings")....and very specific organized protests that involved young kids at designated places. We were also briefed that the IDF didnt know what would be the spark....

and so it happend..sharon walked, Bagrotti (head of the tanzim in an interview in with london paper admitted it was planned) inititiated intifada II.

and it happened just as we were briefed...exaclty
________________________________________________

the checkpoints...came up after the suicide bombers.....before the bombers they're were few. after the checkpoint they're were fewer succesful bombers....simple facts, they may not be nice or comfortable...but the numbers speak for themselves.

and in terms of morallity.....i actually find it the equation:

palestenain freedom of movement has greater value that live israelis (since thats what was happening pre checkpoint) not the kind of value that i understand

[Englander]

81. That's prejudiced nonsense, imo.

Feel free to disregard that view, but imo the stuff about unknown knowns, is
prejudiced, racist, even, nonsense. Which is fitting, that a thread about racism
in Israeli society should feature an eg of such a phenomenom. From my perspective,
the stuff regarding this Intifada is extremely prejudiced, & repugnant nonsense.

[pelsar]

84. dont like facts?.....disreguard them....blah blah blah

From my perspective,
the stuff regarding this Intifada is extremely prejudiced, & repugnant nonsense...

good system....facts get in the way..call them nonsense, prejudice and any other negative word that comes to mind....just so long as accepting some basic history and facts dont get in the way of a view point (i recall a 'blah blah" being a good response to a dispute if an F16 is good platform for recon)...that also works when the facts get to be bothersome)

[Violet_Crumble]

86. This was NOT a fact!

palestenain freedom of movement has greater value that live israelis (since thats what was happening pre checkpoint) not the kind of value that i understand

That's an opinion, and not a very sound one. A more sound opinion would be along the lines of saying that the Israeli govt values Palestinian territory more than it values Israeli lives, otherwise they'd move all the settlers in the West Bank back to the Israeli side of the Green Line and then there wouldn't be a need for checkpoints to be peppered throughout the West Bank...

Violet...

[pelsar]

94. read again...you seem to have taken the wrong part...

i shall repeat the part:

the checkpoints...came up after the suicide bombers.....before the bombers they're were few. after the checkpoint they're were fewer succesful bombers....simple facts, they may not be nice or comfortable...but the numbers speak for themselves.

the second section was a value judgement (the part you quoted)...seems in your haste you've mixed up the paragraphs

[Englander]

88. Prejudiced opinion = not facts. n/t

Facts = not subjective, anecdotal 'evidence'.

Facts = something that actually happened, or is true.

Facts = not opinion.

[pelsar]

95. simple numbers....

checkpoints...fewer sucsessful suicide bombers blowing themselves up in israel

wall ....even fewer sucessful suicide bombers...


facts


conclusion: wall and checkpoints reduce the number of successful suicide bombers
(probably increases the number of attempts)

[idontwantaname]

96. hey pelsar...

did the movie paradise now show in theaters by you? i was wondering if you had a chance/interest in seeing it?

i dont think anyone disagrees that checkpoints and the wall are deterrents to suicide bombers ect... although i think its the specific location (wrong side of the green line and surrounding towns and villages) that a lot of us have a problem with.

[pelsar]

110. its played here...

of course....just as jenin jenin was played here. But no i havent seen it yet...its usually in Tel Aviv or Jersusalem, where i dont get to very often.

like most movies....they eventually get to me via DVD.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Englander]

99. It's called colonialism. You appear to find it appealing.

The checkpoints/wall are not part of Israel, they're part of Occupied Territory.
But, at least we get an honest opinion, none of this stuff about being a 'peacenik'.

[Phx_Dem]

113. colonialism?

isn't that like when the British Occupying Army went to the Falkland Islands and Ethnically Cleansed the Argentinians?


Seriously though, I don't want to imply that just because the British are colonialists that makes it OK for the Israelis to do whatever. For any lasting peace both sides need to live and work side by side.

[Englander]

115. No, it's like the Iof protecting illegal settlements in the Wb.

It's like the Iof creating the cantons in the ethnically cleansed areas, if
you want to use some dialectical terminology.

I'm baffled as to why yer mentioning the Falklands, it looks a bit weird, really.

[Phx_Dem]

116. Just an example

of real colonialism, that's all.

[Djinn]

74. using wikipedia as a source

hardly supports your argument

[Phx_Dem]

90. I know it's not a good source

I was being factious. It's not like I'm going to change someones mind here, you know?

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Here's some analysis from some people who know more about Camp David...

And before I give you the links to go and read, I'll just point out that yr basic assertion is not sound at all. Israel never offered the Palestinians a state, and unless yr definition of *good faith* is Israel goes into the negotiations intent on clinging to as much of the Occupied Territories as possible and refusing to discuss issues that are crucial to resolving the conflict, then Israel did not enter the negotiations in good faith. You mentioned in an earlier post that you thought another posters comments were biased. Don't you think yr own comments are just a tad biased?

Here's the links:

Visions in Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba? - Jeremy Pressman

This report discusses the Israeli/US narrative of what happened as well as discussing the Palestinian one. It points out inaccuracies in both narratives and talks about what went wrong. Not recommended for those who like their Good Guys vs Bad Guys stuff in black and white, because this isn't one of those airbrushed propaganda articles where one side is totally innocent while the other gets all the blame.

That's the best one to read but if you have time these ones are good too:

Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors - Hussein Agha and Robert Malley

Camp David and After: An Exchange (1. An Interview with Ehud Barak) - Benny Morris

Camp David and After: An Exchange (2. A Reply to Ehud Barak) - Hussein Agha and Robert Malley

The Demise of the Oslo Process - Joel Beinin


Violet...

[Phx_Dem]

91. thanks

I'll read through them when I have time.

[Phx_Dem]

92. yes I think i'm biased

but knowing that going in I make an extra effort to look at both sides.

I understand that what was offered was not ideal for the Pals, but it was a start.

[idontwantaname]

93. theres good starts and theres bad starts...

if you read and understand what i wrote above itll help to explain why arafat chose to walk away from the deal he was offered.

if you note above pelsar does not dispute any part of my list... (although pelsar if youre reading this and want to dispute the list you can post a reply).

so given that the paletinian population was "angry" or "dissatisfied" enough to start intifada II is a sign that things were not working out as they were going. to the palestinians oslo was a nightmare. it was a total failure in every sense. their only gain was more israeli settlers, checkpoints and a failing economy.

-----------------

ill stop here and wait for comments (good or bad) before i go further)

[Phx_Dem]

97. I read your post

"1- illegal settlement activity(land confiscation) continued, both to physically displace palestinians and was a show that any form of a palestinian state was not taken seriously..."

The settlers have never been part of the peace process, so I don't know why anyone would expect any cooperation from them. I'm not completely in disagreement with you, just that a reasonable person would not view anything that the settlers do as representitive of the Israeli majority.


2- israeli military checkpoints made travel difficult and introduced a new level of daily harassment and intimidation...

The checkpoints work--they are an unfortunate reality.


"so given that the paletinian population was "angry" or "dissatisfied" enough to start intifada II...."

I'm sure the "population" thinks a lot of things, same in any country, but that is why we have "representitive democracy", our leaders are elected to positions in order to make good decisions, for the people they represent.

OK, you can stop laughing now, but that's really what politicians are there for.

[idontwantaname]

98. you can argue against...

but more or less you can imagine how palestinians would be very dissatisfied with their state post-oslo?

---------------

as for the settlers... yes. they have never been part of the peace process. theyre actually the exact opposite. however they recieve a great deal of israeli gov't protection and $$$ so whats the deal??? saying one thing(i want peace) but doing another(illegally colonizing territory)?

---------------

and you are correct. arafat, as their representitive, decided that the israeli offer was the exact opposite of what "his people" wanted... so he declined and the rest is history.

heres a map: http://www.jnul.huji.ac.il/IA/ArchivedSites/Gushshalom021203/www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html

theres other resources out there but this is the basics of it.

[Coastie for Truth]

62. What would Gideon Levy call Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman ?

A bunch of "Racists"



How quickly we Liberals, Progressives, and Democrats forget our roots.

[Tom Joad]

63. Where the heck does that come from?

these young people did what people like Gideon and Uri Avnery are doing now, who are joining the Palestinians in their struggle for justice, in a common struggle for human rights, and that is why Uri's life is threatened by a fool running for Prime Minister.

Neither you nor I have the right to speak for these young people who died at the hands of racists in mississippi. Gideon Levy made no reference to them, in fact made no reference to anyone in the United States, living or dead. His article was about the current policies of the Israeli govt, and those proposed by the major parties. Perhaps you need to respond to that.

[Coastie for Truth]

64. The reason I am being obnoxious on this thread

is because there are enough sickos and wackos - even in the Progressive and Liberal and Democratic communities who will believe and exaggerate anything (ANYTHING) negative about the "outsider d'jour" or "enemy d'jour" -

* African Americans and African American organizations
* Jewish Americans, Israelis, and Jewish American organizations
* Latinos and Latino Organizations (listen to this week's hysteria from Washington)
* Arab Americans, Arabs, and Arab American organizations
* GLBT and GLBT organizations

Each one of us "outsiders" is a hated outsider by some segment American society (including some liberals, progressives, and Dems)

I think the DU Admins were very wise to print - but there was one DUer who appended that Weiner was a FrontPage.com shill.

[idontwantaname]

65. im tired of it too...

i think some folks use jpost and camera as their source.

[Coastie for Truth]

66. And I think some folks have a paint brush

as wide as a push broom.

[Violet_Crumble]

87. Yep, those folk who use Camera and JPost have very wide brooms...

n/t

[barb162]

100. And so do those who use gems such as Electronic Intifada

[Violet_Crumble]

117. Glad you agree about CAMERA and JPost...

That's a bit of a breakthrough :)

Violet...

[Tom Joad]

70. ok, but from that, where do you presume to know Levy's

feeling about the young people martyred in Mississippi?

Listen to the hysteria about how we need to protect our borders with a wall all along the border? Yeah, i hear it. Sounds very familiar, doesn't it. "We must do these things for our nation's security" At least they do not propose annexing part of Mexico while they are at it.

[Coastie for Truth]

73. My append was about

the negative stereotyping that is as American as baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, tortillas, hummus, sushi, chow mein.

I walked precincts in the 1970's.

[pelsar]

77. you already did that....

"At least they do not propose annexing part of Mexico while they are at it."

if your not going to be consistant...at least dont ignore some basic facts......


or are annexations relative matter of time.....injustices have a time limit?.......or is it relative to just one segment of the globe....which is it?

[Coastie for Truth]

112. Not Unique

Bulldozers and demolitions and ethnic cleansing and desecration are not unique--

DUSHANBE, Tajikistan — Even during Sabbath services on a Saturday in early March, as Rabbi Mikhail Abdurakhimov read Hebrew prayers and the faithful followed along using Russian transliterations, the rumble of construction was distracting.

This is a synagogue in its last moments of existence. While the congregants prayed, a bright orange bulldozer growled outside, continuing its work at the synagogue's edge.

"They could do this anytime," whispered David Kiselkov, 56. "But of course they choose to do it now."

<<<snip>>>

In late February, workers demolished part of the synagogue, including a ritual bath, or mikvah. Only a modest brick building remains, a Star of David on the aluminum door.

The house of worship is making way for a grand presidential palace currently under construction. A columned behemoth topped with a cupola, the garish building will stand on a 130-acre plot of parks and palisades.

[Englander]

114. Where's the relevance? n/t