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It's not all in the details. Amira Hass on checkpoints and their purpose

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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 09:58 PM
Original message
It's not all in the details. Amira Hass on checkpoints and their purpose
From http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/663138.html

"...we Israelis have created and continue to create an economic, social, emotional, employment and environmental crisis on the scale of a never-ending tsunami."

Each detail described here, every shred of reality, is liable to be considered as a whole, which would dim its severity. Detail: Hundreds of people gather each morning at three narrow steel revolving doors, and the gates do not turn because some unseen person has blocked them by pushing a button. The number of people crammed behind them grows and grows, and they wait for an hour, and the anger at another day being late for work or for school is piled on top of previous residual tensions brought on by anger, bitterness and helplessness.

<snip>

What is important is that the army and the Israeli citizens who design all of the details of dispossession - and the roadblocks are an inseparable part of this dispossession - have transformed the term "humanitarian" into a despicable lie.

Through the checkpoints, road closures, movement ban, and traffic restrictions, through the concrete walls and barbed wire fences, through the land expropriations (solely for the purpose of security, as the High Court of Justice, which is part and parcel of the Israeli people, likes to believe), through the disconnecting of villages from their lands and from a connecting road, through the construction of a wall in a residential neighborhood and in the backyards of homes, and through the transformation of the West Bank into a cluster of "territorial cells," in the military jargon, between the expanding settlements - we Israelis have created and continue to create an economic, social, emotional, employment and environmental crisis on the scale of a never-ending tsunami.

<snip>

However, even the important matter - that is, the humanitarian deception - is only one detail in a full set of details in which no single detail is representative in itself. Isolated fragments of the reality are read as being tolerable, or understandable (security, security), or may make one angry for a moment and then subside. And among all the details, the reality of colonialism intensifies, without letup or remission, inventing yet more methods of torture of the individual and community; creating more ways to violate international law, robbing land behind the legal camouflage, and encouraging collaboration out of agreement, neglect or torpor.
*****************************
See the full article above in Haaretz Daily, link cited above.

Comment:
We in the US must work to make a difference. It is our money that pays for the checkpoints, the bulldozing of homes, the uprooting of crops. Our congresspeople support this, even though (with the exception of a very few), know little of the reality of how Palestinians live under military occupation. Most do not even have a clue as to how difficult it is to do the very ordinary things - going to work... going to a doctor... going to class... come next to impossible. That a grandmother may be told she cannot return to her village after a doctor visit, warning shots fired, even though her village is no where near Israelis, but far into the West Bank, simply because some 20-something says he has "orders". These orders make no sense unless you consider it is the reality of colonialism, and the work of dispossession.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Cut the bullshit and stop the terrorism. Then the checkpoints will
disappear.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. If you read the article, you see the purpose of the checkpoints is
dispossession and colonialism.

You also fail to note the destruction of homes and crops is also a form of terrorism. The building of settlements throughout the West Bank is also a form of dispossession. It makes lives unbearable for ordinary Palestinians.

It is an attack on civilians to achieve political ends. In other words, terrorism.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Deleted message
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Being opposed to oppression and destruction isn't self-hatred..
n/t
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. But exaggerating the extent of it may well be.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. She isn't...
And even if she was, how does that make someone 'self-hating'?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. She is, on both counts.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. She most definately isn't
The only hate evident is from those who label others as self-hating when they speak out against those who speak out against oppression and destruction....

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Deleted message
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Who has been exposed to oppression and destruction?
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 11:13 AM by Coastie for Truth
*

* http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879518367/qid=1136044179/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-9184128-1483823?n=507846&s=books&v=glance|Arthur Morse, While Six Million Died: A Chronicle of American Apathy>

That is oppression and destruction. That's when the Gates of Hell opened wide, and FDR and Neville Chamberlain and West just stood and watched.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. Are you saying the Palestinians haven't been?
I'm not sure why yr posting the same thing over and over again in discussions about something else. If you believe that the Palestinians haven't been exposed to oppression and destruction, then posting a link to another instance of people being treated like shit isn't a good way to argue yr point at all...

Violet...
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Because it's not "something else"
it's the same thing.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. The discussion was about Palestinians...
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 07:13 AM by Violet_Crumble
It's NOT the same thing. So, do you agree or disagree that the Palestinians are oppressed?

on edit: maybe I should start popping up in any thread that mentions oppression of Palestinians and post links to crap things that have happened to indigenous Australians. It'd make about as much sense in the context of a thread about Palestinians as yr stuff did...

Violet...
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. This is called Dissent. Challanging your government's policies
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 11:37 PM by Tom Joad
Most of the people here at DU are the same ethnicity and nationality as the President. We condemn most of Bush policies.

For example, One may agree with Bush that wiretapping is a good idea, people should feel free to state that. Do not call those of us who disagree "self-hating". That is useless and a distraction.

The subject of the post is what the checkpoints mean in the daily life of Palestinians, and their overall purpose.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Deleted message
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'm not a racist, just an unapologetic Zionist. Too bad if you don't
like it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Deleted message
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. To cut the terrorism of the Palestinian community by Israel, ...
the checkpoints, the wall, and the settlements on the West Bank and around East Jerusalem would have to disappear.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Bull.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Terror existed before the War of 1967. Terror existed
before the declaration of Israel in 1948. The terror against innocent Jews dates back to the 1920's. That of course is just in modern times.

Incidentally the PLO Covenant was created in 1964 - 3 years before the West Bank was taken to prevent the Jordanian army from overruning Israel, decades before the checkpoints and the wall, which are defensive measures to prevent the deaths of innocent civilians.

By the way - Dayan contacted King Hussein and told him the West Bank wouldn't be touched if Jordan stayed out of the war. But Hussein said he had no choice, he had to engage to support his allies - Egypt and Syria.

OH - did I forget to mention - JORDAN occupied the West Bank before 1967? And Egypt, Gaza? So, were they colonial powers also?
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. As I have frequently posted (and been accused of "hijacking" threads)
the terrorism on both sides appears to have been a product of the post WW 1, British and French division of the spoils of war, creating artificial boundaries of artificial states for their own imperialistic purposes, and imposing their own constabulary/occupation forces.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. True, terror existed before 1967. Example... King David Hotel
blown up by Irgun.

Other examples of the use of terrorism (that is, targeting civilians for the purpose of political gain) would be the attack on Deir Yassin.

On April 9, 1948, the Irgun and Lehi attacked the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, which had had a peace pact with its Jewish neighbors, and massacred over a hundred noncombatants.

See also http://www.deiryassin.org

This attack on this village was very effective for the zionist cause of depopulating Israel of its native inhabitants. 700,000 refugees were made. over 500 villages abandoned. fear is a very good motivator.

If more people were to stand up for universal principles of human rights I do think this would lessen the occurrence of the use of terror.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. See append 24 - Hebron 1929.
NT
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. And what's that got to do with Tom's post?
He's actually pointing out that terror existed prior to 67, so what's yr point?

Violet...
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Terror existed before 1948
and as far back as 1929 - in a community where the Jewish population was predominantly (non-European) Sephardi and indigenous to Hebron. That is, not immigrants or refugees from Europe.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Yes, and Tom had already pointed that out...
Which is why I was wondering why you acted like you were disagreeing with him...

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. Maybe because he was trying to present
pre-1967 terrorism as a purely Jewish phenomenon?
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Exactly. Thank you. EOM.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Read the post he was replying to..
Maybe she was trying to present pre-1967 terrorism as a purely Arab phenomenon?

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #46
63. No
she said Palestinian terrorism existed prior to 67, in response to a post implying* terrorism was caused by occupation (post 9).

*And before you jump on "implied", that post was saying that removing checkpoints, the barrier, etc would stop terrorism - if the assumption isn't that terrorism is caused by occupation, that would make no sense.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #63
71. Yr wrong, eyl...
There has been a very long history of this particular poster only talking about Palestinian terrorism. This was more of the same. I can provide you with link after link to more of the same stuff in other threads if you've missed it...

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. Even assuming for the sake of argument that's so
My responses are to what's written by both sides on this thread.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
45. And you don't think the Jews, the Israelis, were afraid?????
For heaven's sake, try to look at this from the other side. Dier Yassan was terrible but it was hardly the only atrocity in this war of 1948, and it followed decades of horror. Do you think no Jewish towns were lost? Do you think every Israeli soldier, child, or woman died antiseptically, without pain or fear?

Israel lost 1% of its population - in US terms that would be millions of people. She was prepared to lose them all because there really was noplace else to go. And if you think we feel any safer today, guess again. At least in Israel there is some chance of self-defense - for awhile.

Eventually though, I'm sure our global population of 14 million will lose. But in the meantime I am going to ask that you try and see this from the other side.

1948 was an existential war, with the extermination of all the Jews in the Middle East being promised - on top of the Holocaust.

You're right. Fear is a powerful motivator.


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Why do you think he isn't seeing this from both sides??????????
After all, he was replying to yr post in which you spoke ONLY of terrorism by Arabs against Jews. Anyway, could you explain why you think he isn't seeing this from both sides? I'm very curious to know...

Violet...
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #47
57. No, respectfully, I have read many posts by this gentleman
and they are ALL extremely negative about anything whatsoever to do with Israel.

I do not believe there is any empathy whatsoever expressed here and also the statement that this incident which he mentions, Deir Yassin, was responsible for driving all the Arab refugees away. At least 10% of the refugees left BEFORE the war even started. But then I'm sure you're aware of that.

I get no sense from most of the negative posters that there's been a whole lot of effort spent trying to see this from the point of view of the Jewish and Israeli people who were actually involved, in the 20's, 30's, and '40's, or how they felt in '67 or '73 or how they feel now. It is as though those few decades occurred on a foreign planet, thousands of years ago. Yet those years are within the living memory of people who, though old, are still alive today.

Without the quality of empathy, history can't come alive. It is empty words, which are all too easy to play with, meanings twisted or changed altogether.

That's why, when I've written on this subject before, I said people really have to learn the music, the poetry, to feel the Arab songs, walk in Arab shoes, understand their fear, resentment, confusion, and walk in the skin of an Israeli or a Jewish refugee. But when I say these things I'm accused of not knowing what's in a book.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #57
70. The same can be said about the post he's replying to...
Just exchange the words Arab or Palestinian for Jewish or Israeli and you'll understand why I'm a bit bemused right now...

btw, the poster yr talking about makes legitimate criticism of Israeli policy. That is NOT 'extremely negative about anything whatsoever to do with Israel'. The whole idea that Israel is beyond criticism for anything is totally ridiculous, imo...

Violet...
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Those *TERRORISTS* became Israeli PMs.
You've neglected to mention the incidents of Irgun, &tc *TERRORISM*.

'>snip

The assassination

On September 17, 1948, the day following the signing of the second plan, Folke Bernadotte was assassinated in an ambush in the Israeli-controlled sector of Jerusalem. The murderers were never found and no one was ever convicted of the assassination. It was, however, commonly surmised from the very beginning that members of the Lohamei Herut Yisrael (LEHY), or the Stern Gang, carried out the assassination. It is now well established that the decision to kill the UN mediator was made by the Central Committee of the LEHY, which included Yitzhak Yezernitzky-Shamir. LEHY saw Count Bernadotte as the main obstacle to an Israeli annexation of Jerusalem and to Jewish control of all Palestine. (Yitzhak Shamir went on to serve as prime minister of Israel in 1983–84 and 1986–92.) The man who held the gun is believed to have been Yehoshua Cohen.

http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/BasicFactsheet____4198.aspx#9

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Time for a diversionary Hebron 1929 linky!!
;)
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Ha! There's a lot of them about, aren't there?

;-)
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. A diversionary linky with a smilie
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. That would work as well, that's also an effective -

"Look! Over there!".
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Deleted message
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Wrong. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Deleted message
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Try reading the discussion...
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 11:23 PM by Violet_Crumble
Then you'd know it was a comment about the same linky being posted over and over again in an attempt to portray Jews as the ONLY victims of terrorism...

Now, if you have anything constructive to add to the discussion, feel free. Let's start with a question. You asked Tom Joad to see both sides, yet I've just come from reading a post where you justified attacks by Zionists on Arabs. Is there any attacks by Zionists/Israelis on Arabs that you DO consider to be terrorism, and why?

Violet...
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #48
58. Say again? When did I justify attacks by - did you mean
Israelis? On whom? Please clarify.

Also, don't you think it's more than a little demeaning to insult the memory of the Hebron victims? Not only is it cruel and insensitive, it's wrong to put this watershed event in the category of small and meaningless incidents.

In fact, Hebron is one of the keys to understanding the conflict. It's a root, from which so many things have grown. Had such incidents not occurred, had their been peaceful acceptance of "the other", we'd be looking at a different world today. As it was, things got worse from there.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. Post #42.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=109323&mesg_id=109537


That's the clearest eg of an attempt to justify terrorism I've seen, that's the
most explicit eg of that repugnant practice I've seen in this forum.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #58
72. I did NOT demean the memory of the Hebron victims...
Give it a break, CB. Anyone who can read knows full well that I was commenting on the diversionary tactics being used by some in this thread. It's a bit of a stretch to accuse me of putting any massacre in the category of small and meaningless incidents...

but while yr here, how about you explain to us all the reasons WHY it happened in the same sympathetic way you explained WHY Jewish terrorism happened...

Violet...
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #48
59. Are we now using the term "Zionist" in the pejorative sense,
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 04:19 AM by Colorado Blue
as in "The Zionist Entity?" Please clarify.

And yes, I believe there have been cases in the past, during the war for example, which I'd qualify as terrorism against Arabs. Also, I believe that some of the settlers are WAY out of line and should be in jail. There are clearly cases where their behavior is unacceptable.

I don't think that I've ever been unclear about this.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #59
73. As a scholar you should know how the term is used...
I've used it the same way in all the years I've been in this forum. Pre-Israel, I refer to the settlers who arrived in Palestine as Zionists, and after the creation of Israel I refer to them as Israelis.

Is there a problem with that?

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Ha Shanah B'Yerushalayim
is part of the liturgy - a Zionist cry -- it has been a part of the liturgy since my grand father (a left wing Litvak and a rabbi) took me schul 62 years ago - and it was part of the liturgy when his Zadde (a Rosh Yeshivah) took him to schul in 19th Century Europe.

A very good append.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. L'chaim, Coastie. I wish people who feel so free to talk about
Zionism, would go to shul or that they could hear the cantors, or read the poetry of our rabbis.

Some of my favorite dance songs were arranged and sung by the Israeli Yemenite Ofra Haza, who walked to Israel from Yemen with her family.

The lyrics, in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic, were written by a 16th century rabbi. They are gorgeous.
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. CB...I'd have to disagree. When things are posted that are highly biased
in favor of Israel, and distort the history of the region, for you to then claim any negative response to those distortions are "anti-semitic," or to claim that they represent a biased view "against" Jews is just not accurate, imho. The things posted in that spirit are not respectful of those of us who are FAR from being anti-semitic, yet still have very big problems with those Israeli policies that create suffering for the Palestinians.

And when the term "Zionist" is used in connection with any of those negative things you mention, I'd like to suggest you read for context, and realize that the poster is typically responding negatively to expansionist policies of the state of Israel. It often appears, from reading your posts, that you support those policies. If that isn't true, OK, but that's how you come across. At the very least, you might try to find out what the poster means by the term, if you desire better, respectful communication.

This, for instance:
We mourn that people still live as refugees after 60 years, and that nobody will open their ears to effectively support their future without simultaneously advocating the destruction of Israel and the creation of millions of new victims.
...is entirely inaccurate. The Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist ages ago, as discussed just recently. There are lots of Palestinians and pro-Palestinian posters that in no way advocate the destruction of Israel, yet you repeatedly make misleading statements like this, lumping everyone together in your worst imaginings. This is not respect.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #43
60. Bernadotte was Jewish? Who. Knew? n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
77. A very clear clarification of my post...
Seeing as how there's two people in this thread who despite my explaining it to them, are insisting that this is somehow a disparegement of victims of violence, I'll just totally clarify this for them - the diversionary Hebron 1929 linky comment was a nod in the direction of a tendency of it to be used as a 'look over there!!!' tactic whenever any comment is made about oppression or violence towards Palestinians...

I certainly hope that's clear enough as I can't make it any more clear than that...

Now maybe we can all get back to the actual topic of this thread, which was about checkpoints...

Violet...
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. Oh gimme a break. The Irgun and other such groups were
originally founded because Jews were being attacked. There would have been no need otherwise.

Secondly, the British policies in the region were brutal from the Jewish point of view. Surely we don't have to go over that stuff ad infinitum? Do we have to mention World War II, the blockading of refugee ships, the disarming of Palestinian Jews who had loyally fought for the Allies and thus were left defenseless, while the Arab armies were supplied with the best?

Oh, PLEASE.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Excusing terrorism is a disgusting thing...
It's interesting that it didn't take long for a post to appear that would excuse terrorism committed by Zionists.

Violet...
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. That's because so many posts excuse terrorism by the Palestinians
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Care to give links to all these many posts that do so?
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 11:20 PM by Violet_Crumble
I won't hold my breath waiting for something that doesn't exist..

btw, yr comment that those disgusting comments in the other post were made because of other posts justifying other terrorism isn't right at all. The poster gave zero indication that this was a 'retaliatory' comment, and in the past has made similar comments justifying attacks carried out by groups like the Stern Gang...

Violet....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. Lucky I wasn't holding my breath!
:)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #50
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #49
64. Oh for HEAVEN'S SAKE. I was trying to put Irgun into
some kind of historical perspective, not to justify their actions.

AAARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

But it is true, the militias were originally founded as DEFENSE.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #64
74. Please reread yr post...
In reply to a post naming some terrorist groups and someone who went on to become an Israeli PM, yr response was: 'Oh gimme a break. The Irgun and other such groups were
originally founded because Jews were being attacked. There would have been no need otherwise.'

That is not in any way, shape or form a mere explanation or historical perspective. That comment very much came across as a justification for the violence. Try this if yr unsure as to why:

Next time there's a terrorist attack carried out by Palestinians, if someone were to respond with 'Oh, gimme a break. Hamas and IJ were originally founded because Palestinians were being attacked and their land occupied. There would have been no need otherwise.' what would be yr response? You would see that as a justification of terrorism, and you'd be quite right in seeing it as such. Which is why I see those other comments as the same thing...

Violet...



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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. Why terrorism is never acceptable...
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 11:50 PM by Violet_Crumble
The targetting and murder of civilians for a political goal is unarguably terrorism. The assassination of diplomats for a political goal is also unarguably terrorism. Here's why it is never acceptable...

Any group can fire off a list of reasons why they feel the need to do what they do. But we should all think long and hard about following that example. If it's considered okay to attempt to justify the actions of one group by trotting out excuses for what they did, then there's no reason why the justifications used by every other group shouldn't also be trotted out in order to excuse what they do. Most groups who carry out cowardly attacks on civilians will portray themselves and their mission as noble and a reason why the deaths of innocent people should happen, but none of us should ever fall into their trap, because then when we speak out against terrorism, everyone remembers that our words are pretty damn hollow, as our condemnation is only applied selectively...

CB, there's a world of difference between justifying terrorism, and understanding why it happens. If you need me to, I can explain in some detail why yr post fell well and truly into the former category...

Violet...
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #52
66. I agree. I wasn't justifying terror by the Irgun. I was trying
to put the founding of Irgun and their behavior into some perspective.

Surely, it isn't TOO difficult to understand that the '30's and '40's were violent on an absolutely surreal level? Trying to compare those days with today is a bit of a red herring. Nevertheless I have never believed that such violence was correct, let alone humane.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #66
75. I don't think so...
Somehow 'Oh gimme a break. The Irgun and other such groups were
originally founded because Jews were being attacked. There would have been no need otherwise.' with nothing accompanying it explaining that it was putting things in perspective (btw, many of us have studied the conflict for many years and don't need you to put it in 'perspective' for us) does come across as arguing the point the poster you were replying to was making, which was that there was terrorism carried out by Irgun etc....

I'm curious though. Why do you think that it's a red herring to 'compare' today with events from a few decades ago? Bottom line is that all are terrorism, and none should be justified or defended under any circumstances...

Violet...

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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #52
68. That's right, Violet.

Some targets are not 'legitimate'.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #42
65. Does that mean they're not *TERRORISTS*?

Why are you trying to justify terrorism? Whilst, using clueless propaganda?
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. Yes they were terrorists. One more time: placing the
origins and actions of the Irgun and other such groups into historical perspective is not the same as justifying their behavior.

OK? Are we clear on this? Please?

I think I have said this about 100 times over the past year but somehow it doesn't seem to register.

Why????? I get the sense that y'all really enjoy poking at me, sort of like a bullfight in Spain. Is it fun?

Meanwhile, I am glad you guys feel that terrorism isn't justified. THAT is some progress, anyhow. So if I have to bleed a little to get you to say it I suppose it's worth it.

I would like an apology for the cruel disparagement of the victims of Hebron.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. Yes it is!!!
Trying to place the incidents of exploding mines in cinemas, or marketplaces,
or the murder of diplomats, or the murder of civilians, into historical perspective,
whilst*also*not*condemning* those incidents, is, imo, an attempt to try & justify
those incidents of terrorism.

I'm going to ignore the last four paras, the comments are not really worthy of reply,
& I would hope I don't have to explain why.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #67
76. WTF???
Meanwhile, I am glad you guys feel that terrorism isn't justified. THAT is some progress, anyhow. So if I have to bleed a little to get you to say it I suppose it's worth it.

What the hell????? I've been saying the same thing since I first arrived here in late 2002, so I don't know where that came from. I think an apology is in order, CB...

btw, what 'cruel disparagement' are you talking about? There was none at all in this thread, and if that's a continuation of yr misunderstanding my post where I'd made it very clear that I was poking fun at diversionary tactics, then I think another apology is due to me...

Violet...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #67
78. 'if I have to bleed a little to get you to say it I suppose it's worth it'
I didn't realise you were getting me to say anything. What I say, I say because I believe it, which is why I said it repeatedly in this thread that you also participated in:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=106575

and commented on:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x106526#106826

"Meanwhile we have people posting on DU and elsewhere, supposedly progressives, who seem to feel terrorism is A.OK (not you - I saw your comment and I respect and appreciate it.)"

:shrug:

Violet...
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #42
80. CB...
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 11:23 AM by Wordie
Hamas and other such groups were originally founded because Palestinians were being attacked. There would have been no need otherwise.

Secondly, the Israeli policies in the region were brutal from the Palestinian point of view. Surely we don't have to go over that stuff ad infinitum?


(So that justifies Hamas being formed, and it's violent activities against Israel.)

Do you see? I've heard it said that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," but that sort of thinking is precisely what endlessly fuels the conflict. We tend see our own violence as justifed, heroic even, but view the violence of our enemy as evidence of depravity. That's what you did in that post. The only hope for peace, imho, is for both "sides" to recognize that. Don't you see?






DISCLAIMER! I am not saying that I believe violent activities are justified. I am making the exact opposite point (or trying to) about CB's earlier post.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. OK Wordie, I'll try again. The point of my post was to
challenge the assumption that Palestinian terrorism would stop if the checkpoints, etc disappeared.

That is an incorrect assumption because the terrorism against Jews actually started in the 1920's. And the armed Jewish militias were IN FACT founded in self-defense. This includes Palmach, Haganah, the Stern Gang and Irgun. The latter were also into terrorism, primarily against the Brits but also on occasion, against Arabs.

It is important to note that Ben Gurion dissolved those groups. An enormous step forward would be made if Abbas if would do the same with the Arab militias. The fact that he can't or won't, is devastating both the peace process and the safety and security of the Palestinians. The threats to Israel are severe. Here's a link from Ha'aretz, about a would-be attack on the reactor at Dimona:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/665332.html

Making historical parallels between completely dissimilar events is dangerous, intellectually. I understand what you are trying to say but the world of the 1930's was completely different and the situation was different, from the world of today. The very landscape was different.

So when we discuss the PLO, Hamas, et.al., it's important to distinguish between their goals and their raisons d'etre, as vis a vis, for example, Irgun.

Again, like you, I am not DEFENDING terrorism, indeed I deplore it, and all violence; but I am merely trying to establish an historical timeline and put things into a perspective vis a vis certain events such as WWII, the attacks on Hebron and the riots in the 1930's.

The PLO Covenant calls expressly for the destruction of Israel. It was written in 1964, before the West Bank was taken in war. That's why I believe the whole premise of the statement to which I responded, was incorrect. I'm curious also, why no such Covenant was written against Jordan and Egypt, who were in control of Gaza and the West Bank, if in fact the occupation was really the issue.

The fact is, the occupation isn't the issue, the existence of Israel is the issue.

Incidentally, it is important to recall that PLO, as well as states like Egypt, Syria and Libya, were armed and funded by the Soviet Union. Much of the current trouble we are in thus stems not only from the WWI era or the WWII era, but from the Cold War era. What is so messed up about all this, is the fact that these big power politics have managed to completely screw the people. None of this violence was preordained, it didn't have to happen - but once it started its effects snowballed.

I'm really worried that there's no way to stop it, and that a horrible war will ensue. Maybe I should say, ANOTHER horrible war. There have already been several, and the most frustrating thing is, the violence escalated after the Oslo Accords were signed. This was supposed to bring peace, create the foundations for a Palestinian state.

Truly, I'm heartbroken that the Gaza situation is so unsettled, that the rocket attacks and terror attacks have continued, that certain settlers are behaving inhumanely, that Hamas won't extend the truce, and I'm deeply concerned.

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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. Wrong way round. n/t
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. not really. n/t
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Humanitarian and political consequences of occupation (from EU report)
The following is from the suppressed EU report on the occupation. This information supports the material presented in the editorial in the OP.

The full suppressed EU report can be read here:
http://www.palestinecampaign.org/campaigns.asp?d=y&id=140

HUMANITARIAN AND POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES

22. Cutting the link between East Jerusalem and the West Bank: Palestinian East Jerusalem has traditionally been the centre of political, commercial, religious and cultural activities for the West Bank, with Palestinians operating as one cohesive social and economic unit. Separation from the rest of the West Bank is affecting the economy and weakening the social fabric. Since Israels occupation of the eastern part of Jerusalem in 1967, Palestinian access to Jerusalem from the West Bank has been increasingly restricted. During the Oslo Process, in 1993, the Israeli government banned entry for all Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza without a permit. Settlements together with by-pass roads have further restricted access in Jerusalem. And the Barrier has further aggravated the situation.

23. Threats to Residency Status: Palestinian Blue ID holders outside the barrier are increasingly unable to access East Jerusalem, forcing them to access educational, medical and religious services in the rest of the West Bank. This jeopardises their Jerusalem residency rights, according to the Israeli "centre of life" policy.

24. Impact on the Education and Health Care Sector: West Bankers also face increasing difficulties in accessing the major Palestinian centres of health care and education in East Jerusalem. Schools in East Jerusalem that depend on West Bank staff are at urgent risk of closure. The same applies to hospitals: in addition to the dwindling numbers of patients from the West Bank due to access problems, some Israeli insurance companies are demanding that staff must have Israeli professional qualifications and registration. According to the PA Ministry for Jerusalem Affairs, approximately 68% of medical staff working at hospitals in East Jerusalem reside outside its municipal boundaries. The lack of patients and staff will cause a decline of the number and range of services, which often are not available in the West Bank.

25. Restriction of religious freedom: Christians and Muslims living east of the Barrier already have restricted access to their holy sites. West Bankers are finding it increasingly difficult to get to the Haram al Sharif/Temple Mount compound - because of the wider system of permits to enter Jerusalem, and the barrier. No males under 45 are allowed onto the compound. The Director of the Awqaf, which controls the mosques, has complained particularly about increasing Israeli measures to dominate and control the compound. Police have been regularly patrolling the compound for a year. The Israelis say this is to ensure good settler behaviour, but the effect is that it intimidates worshippers. The Israelis have also introduced new measures over the past few weeks - cameras have been placed at every gate, outside the Haram but pointing in. Thus every entrance is tightly controlled. The Israelis have also begun erecting fences on the buildings surrounding the Haram. Muslim concerns regarding access to (and threats to) the Haram al-Sharif mosques have both security and political implications. Perceived "threats" to the mosques by Jewish groups and the denial of access to Muslims regularly spark confrontations, and motivate Palestinian extremists.

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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's not all in the details
By Amira Hass

Each detail described here, every shred of reality, is liable to be considered as a whole, which would dim its severity. Detail: Hundreds of people gather each morning at three narrow steel revolving doors, and the gates do not turn because some unseen person has blocked them by pushing a button. The number of people crammed behind them grows and grows, and they wait for an hour, and the anger at another day being late for work or for school is piled on top of previous residual tensions brought on by anger, bitterness and helplessness.

However, it is not the crowdedness and waiting and anger that define the checkpoints and roadblocks, or in this specific instance, the new Qalandiyah checkpoint. Nor is it the crowdedness and compressed atmosphere of the rest of the inspection route, before the magnometers and the closed rooms in which the soldiers sit and inspect documents, or the other revolving doors. Or even the other "details": the cameras that make the soldiers and commanders seeing and unseen, the snarling voice in the speaker that issues commands in Hebrew, the terrifying concrete wall above and around, and the devastation left by Israeli bulldozers and planners outside the cage that Israel calls a "border terminal," in what was once, and no longer is, a continuous stretch of residential neighborhoods, soft hillsides and the Jerusalem-Ramallah road.

Nor are the 11 "detainees" at the inspection route's exit an adequate detail: nine teenage boys aged 18 and under, one adult, and a 23-year-old university student, all of whom committed a serious crime on Monday: After waiting in vain for the steel gates to turn, which would lead them to the inspection route, on their way to classes and work, they decided to jump over the fence - one hoping to get to an English test on time, the other fearful of being fired if he again arrived late to the printing press where he works. But they were caught. The student was handcuffed from behind, and was sat down next to a guard booth in the closed military compound. The other ten were placed outside the compound, in the mud that became thicker with every drop of rain. And the soldiers demanded that they sit down. They could not sit, because of the mud, and only went into a kneeling position. After half an hour, the bent knees begin to hurt more and more, and the pants are soaked with water and grow tight over the knee. The hands turn cold, but the soldiers don't change their tune: "Sit, I told you. Sit."

>snip

However, even the important matter - that is, the humanitarian deception - is only one detail in a full set of details in which no single detail is representative in itself. Isolated fragments of the reality are read as being tolerable, or understandable (security, security), or may make one angry for a moment and then subside. And among all the details, the reality of colonialism intensifies, without letup or remission, inventing yet more methods of torture of the individual and community; creating more ways to violate international law, robbing land behind the legal camouflage, and encouraging collaboration out of agreement, neglect or torpor.

More at;
Haaretz

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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I googled that checkpoint. Here's what I found...
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/655535.html

The incident comes a day after a Palestinian man fatally stabbed an IDF soldier at another West Bank checkpoint. The soldier, Nir Kahana, was attacked at the Qalandiyah checkpoint north of Jerusalem.

He was buried Friday in the military section of the cemetery in his hometown of Tivon.


Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Fatah's military wing, claimed responsibility for the attack. However, Israel Radio reported Friday that the stabber had acted independently.


One of the incidents, at another checkpoint on the same day, involved a boy who was "trying to bring the bombs to Palestinians waiting on the other side of the checkpoint."

The situation is desperate on both sides, and sadly, peaceful people just trying to get to work are caught in the middle.

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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well done, you're right, it's a fubar situation.
One of the main reasons is because there's an ongoing & brutal occupation.
The Qalandiyah checkpoint is in the West Bank, it's not part of Israel. That,
presumably, is why the author of this article I posted chose that particular
location to write about.

______

EU envoys boycott tour of crossing at Qalandiyah
By Amira Hass

The representatives of the European Union and other diplomats boycotted a tour last Monday - sponsored by the West Bank Civil Administration - of the new Qalandiyah crossing for pedestrians. A diplomatic source told Haaretz they refused the invitation to tour the facility, which opened the next day, because it is located in the heart of occupied territory.

Israel sees the crossing as a border terminal between it and the West Bank, similar to a number of other terminals, for example the Erez crossing in the Gaza Strip. However, the Qalandiyah crossing is distant from the Green Line (pre-1967 border) and is surrounded by Palestinian neighborhoods and villages.

The diplomatic source said the decision not to take part in the tour was made before a request from the Palestinian Authority's Foreign Ministry asked the diplomats in East Jerusalem and Ramallah not to take part, and was independent of that request.

Haaretz has learned that the security officer of the American Consulate did take the tour, along with the No. 3 of the Australian mission, and so did representatives of two American aid organizations and an American commercial representative.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/661595.html
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
24. And the August 1929 Riots in Hebron
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 10:51 PM by Coastie for Truth
Eighty three human beings killed - doesn't that count? I'll do your research for you

Seventy-five years ago, a two-week orgy of pogroms took place in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Safed, Hebron and a number of smaller locales in British-ruled Palestine, at the end of which 83 Jews had been killed and hundreds wounded.

Pogroms are not spontaneous events, and those of August 1929 were no exception. The affair began August 15, Tisha B'Av, when a few hundred Jerusalem schoolchildren held a flag-waving demonstration at the Western Wall — allegedly inciting a group of Arabs to violence. The next day, following Friday afternoon worship, 2,000 Arabs burst out of the Mosque of Omar on the Haram al-Sharif, or Temple Mount, and came down to the Western Wall, where they chased off the few Jews who were around, beat the shammes, tore up prayer books and burned the little notes stuck in the wall by Jews. It was suspected that the speaker in the mosque that day had incited Arab worshippers to violence. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, later admitted as much.

Hebron caught the worst of it — 68 dead — mainly because the Jewish population there was not part of the Zionist movement, whose settlements fared far better because of their clandestine defense units. The Hebron community was made up of a long-settled Sephardic community, as well as many younger religious Jews who had gone there to study in a branch of the Slobodka Yeshiva, the famed Lithuanian mussar institution. The carnage in Hebron was particularly ugly, the mobs having sliced a variety of body parts off of their victims. Just over a half-dozen of the victims were American kids from New York and Chicago who had come to study at the famed yeshiva.

Instead of attempting mediation between the two communities, the response of the British was essentially to do nothing. Nearly every Jewish organization, from the Zionists to the ultra-Orthodox Agudath Israel, protested vigorously. The impression among them was that the British were not truly interested in peace between the Arabs and the Jews.

--snip--




ACTUALLY IN RESPONSE TO APPEND 23
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
53. Do you have any comment about the article that was posted?
Y'know, the one about checkpoints and Palestinians?

Violet...
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. See the link and the linked article
citing , especially the paragraph
But the main reason for the reduction in terrorist acts over the past year is the truce in the territories, as partial as it may be. The fact that Hamas, in general, stopped engaging in terror activities changed the picture. The Islamic Jihad network in the West Bank upgraded its capability and was responsible for the murder of 23 Israelis in 2005, but during that time, Hamas - the leading terror orgnanization in recent years - has scaled back its engagement in terror. Its focus on the political arena and the preparations for the Palestinian parliamentary elections have limited its active involvement in terror to a large extent.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
undergroundrailroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
86. Locking.
In the interest of caution and sensitivity, I'm locking this thread.

Thank you.

Undergroundrailroad
DU Moderator
I/P
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