No truth to report of Israeli evacuations before Amman bombs

[barb162]

update - 17:03 10/11/2005


No truth to report of Israeli evacuations before Amman bombs

By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent

There is no truth to reports that Israelis staying at the Radisson SAS hotel in Amman on Wednesday were evacuated by Jordanian security forces before the bombing that took place there.

The Israelis were escorted back to Israel by Jordanian security personnel only after the attacks had taken place, contrary to earlier reports.

Al Qaida said Thursday that it had carried out the triple suicide bombings at the Radisson, Grand Hyatt and Days Inn hotels in downtown Amman, in which at least 57 people, including an Israeli, were killed.

Representatives of Israel's embassy in Amman were in contact with local authorities to examine any report of injured Israelis, but none were received. There are often a number of Israeli businessman and tourists in Amman, including in the hotels hit Wednesday.

snip
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/643661.html

[ElectroPrincess]

1. Is this your only source? n/t.

[estherc]

3. this makes sense

I thought the original article didn't make much sense and that someone probably had misunderstood the timing. Makes much more sense for the Israelis to have been evacuated after the bombing. I can't imagine that the Jordanian security would evacuate Israelis and let everyone else get blown up.

[barb162]

4. Yes, it makes zero sense thaq Jordanians would let their own

be massacred

[ElectroPrincess]

5. I hope you don't mind if I wait for confirming stories from OTHER

more mainstream sources before I "buy into" the story that you have posted?

But yes, this publication is seemingly proactive with regard to such issues.

[Coastie for Truth]

12. New Orleans Times Picayune-States Item, January 2 1968

I will tell you how newpaper stories develop. Go to a library (too old to be on the web), and look at the New Orleans Times Picayune-States Item, for January 2 1968. There's a story about an airplane crash in Lake Ponchartrain.

Look at the Picture of the Coast Guard officer in the picture - and compare it to the picture on the home page of my blog -- . Yup - That's me when I was a heroic young stud instead of a crochety old curmudgeon.

Back to the story. The Times Picayune-States Item never got the story straight -- until the NTSB hearing six week later. And the reporter was on the deck of the bouy tender with me.

And they screwed up the story even worse when two tankers collided down around Burras LA in April 1968 -- never got that one straight.

[ElectroPrincess]

13. Please don't, and say you did ... :-)

"I will tell you how newpaper stories develop." :P

[Turbineguy]

21. I've noticed the same thing

Whenever there is a story about something of a maritime nature, they screw it up. I don't think they mean to, they just don't know what they are talking about.

I always wonder how screwed up their reporting of things that I have no expertise on is....

[barb162]

6. another

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/972CB9BD-79A0-4B46-9891-FDD25906E49F.htm


Thursday 10 November 2005, 21:09 Makka Time, 18:09 GMT
Israel's Haaretz newspaper has retracted a report that Jordanian security services evacuated Israeli nationals staying in the Radisson SAS hotel in Amman before Wednesday's bomb attack.


The newspaper's website on Thursday clarified that Israelis staying in the hotel were escorted from the hotel only after the bomb attack.

"There is no truth to reports that Israelis staying at the Radisson SAS hotel in Amman on Wednesday were evacuated by Jordanian security forces before the bombing that took place there," the newspaper said. snip"

[burrowowl]

52. Haaratz is a good souce

they are left of the J Post, very left and usually reliable.

[wakeme2008]

2. Sounds like Scottie is showing them

how to "edit" their reports. :rofl:

[barb162]

7. correcting a mistake?

Scottie?
Maybe a report that went out ASAP without proofing

[Colorado Blue]

8. Unbelievable. Not your post, some of the responses. Even

al Jazeera admits the error.

And what isn't MAINSTREAM about Ha'aretz?

[Coastie for Truth]

9. You know what the main stream media is

For real discriminating intellects -

National Enquirer


<>

[ElectroPrincess]

10. Al Jazeera is NOT admitting an error ...

merely passing on a "correction" or just possibly, "misinformation" to correct a report that should not have been sent?

Who can say with 100% confidence?

[lovuian]

38. exactly!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/jordan_explosion

after reading this yahoo message it clearly looks like another 11/9 or 9/11 event like Madrid and NYC ... Alquida blows up the strangest people Jordanians Iraqis ... and Bush and King of Jordan are trying to get the jordanians to rise up for the crusade against???

[Jim Sagle]

68. Al Jazeera is defamation and disinformation.

Those who consume its poison are at risk to their mental and moral health.

[Wordie]

72. Hmmm...yet apparently al Jazeera is AGREEING with the OP in this case.

So, you are saying you disagree with the OP?

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Even funnier...

...if this situation had been reversed there would be no cries of needing second sources, it would be gospel! There would be lots of "I knew it." posts.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

22. Funny, you seem pretty active today

"But all you do is post on threads like these. Hummmm ..."

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

34. I am looking to get the facts straight as they come out

in the media. I don't remember looking for support. The story is very fluid right now, don't you think? Many of the dead haven't even been identified

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Ditto!

[question everything]

55. "You folks"

A nice little bigoted comment here.

[newyorican]

15. Not sure this is going away so easily...

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Israelis staying at the Radisson on Wednesday had been evacuated before the attacks and escorted back home "apparently due to a specific security threat."

Amos N. Guiora, a former senior Israeli counter-terrorism official, said in a phone interview with The Times that sources in Israel had also told him about the pre-attack evacuations.

"It means there was excellent intelligence that this thing was going to happen," said Guiora, a former leader of the Israel Defense Forces who now heads the Institute for Global Security Law and Policy at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland. "The question that needs to be answered is why weren't the Jordanians working at the hotel similarly removed?"

Link

As incredible as it sounds, "multiple sources" will make it difficult to unring this bell.

[ElectroPrincess]

16. The Horrid truth always comes out eventually ...

It's also a sad fact that no one wears the "white hats" :cry:

[newyorican]

17. Well...

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions at this time. It all sounds so incredible.

[barb162]

51. take a look at post 50

[lovuian]

39. Bingo!!! The best way to handle this is admit Good Intel but then

King of Jordan is in the hot seat... perhaps he will blame it on the bureaucracy like Bush did!!!

[PerceptionManagement]

18. Quite the image problem for the israel continues.

Cant mossad leak a story that says they helped some arabs/Palestinians/muslims?

[newyorican]

19. Then there is this...

Bomb in ceiling caused Jordan hotel blast - source

AMMAN - A blast at the Radisson hotel in the Jordanian capital Amman on Wednesday was caused by a bomb placed in a false ceiling, police sources at the scene told Reuters.

Link

Now all we hear about is "suicide belts" being used. Seems odd.

Afterwards, Al-Qaeda takes responsibility for bombing the hotels, 2 of which are owned by Palestinians. That also seems odd.

[ElectroPrincess]

20. Incredible Indeed! ... A full blown nightmare n/t.

On Edit: No pun intended. :(

[barb162]

37. Incredible? Is there any hard evidence of anything yet?

The media is revising this story every few hours or so it seems.

:hi:

[geek tragedy]

24. Jordan is 70% Palestinian.

So, there's absolutely nothing "odd" about the hotels being owned by Palestinians.

[newyorican]

26. What is odd...

is Al-Qaeda targeting Palestinian owned hotels, not that Palestinians own them. I think we all understood what I said the first time, eh?

I'm not sure what you mean by stating "Jordan is 70% Palestinian" (land? people?) I would have thought a significant percentage of Jordan was Jordanian (both land and people).

[geek tragedy]

27. Most of the population of Jordan are ethnic Palestinians.

Therefore, there is nothing special about the fact that these particular hotels were owned by Palestinians. It's like suggesting that a target inside the US was odd because it was owned by a white guy.

[newyorican]

28. I think this is an attempted hijacking....

but misinformation should be debunked:

Nationality:
noun: Jordanian(s)
adjective: Jordanian

Ethnic groups:
Arab 98%, Circassian 1%, Armenian 1%

Population:
5,759,732 (July 2005 est.)

Refugees and internally displaced persons:
refugees (country of origin): 1,740,170 (Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA))
IDPs: 800,000 (1967 Arab-Israeli War) (2004)

www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/jo.html

Palestinian is not an ethnicity, it is a wannabe nationality.

[geek tragedy]

31. "Palestinian is a wannabe nationality?"

Christ, that sounds like LGF talk.

"Jordanians of Palestinian origin" make up 50-70% of Jordan's population.

There is nothing unusual about these hotels being owned by Palestinians.

Gotta link for that claim, btw? My guess is that they were targeted because they had US names and were affiliated with Western corporate interests.

And you're the one playing "pin the blame on the Israelis." Talk about a hijacking.

[barb162]

44. Seems to me he is sticking to the subject

Now if he started writing about Japan....

[eyl]

73. Of the Arab population you mentioned

about 60-70% are Palestinians, while the remaining 30% are mostly Hashemites.

[lovuian]

40. yes WHY the Palestinian major general of Intelligince killed

by Alquida curious???

[barb162]

45. wrong place, wrong time

Reading some of the eye witness accounts where people decided to take a quick walk outside the building, or 30 seconds before they had just been in the bar....

[Jim Sagle]

69. What's odd about that? Do you think Al Q actually CARES?

[tatertop]

32. Mossad, our enemy, picks their targets well.

I do not believe this cover up.
Do you?

[barb162]

46. I believe Mossad has told the US government of suspected

terrorist attempts on the US. Is this not your understanding?

[Wordie]

85. Mossad has also attempted assasinations in Jordan before. So who knows?

Not enough info at this time.

[Jim Sagle]

70. Mossad RRRAWWWWKSSS!!!!

If they're your enemy, it must really suck to be you.

[Colorado Blue]

77. Since when is Mossad our enemy? Good heavens. I hope

you never meet the real thing, a REAL enemy.

[barb162]

35. This has been updated by Reuters; no bomb in ceiling

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-11-09T223804Z_01_WRI970423_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SECURITY-JORDAN.xml


"Bombs at three Jordan hotels kill at least 57
Wed Nov 9, 2005 10:38 PM GMT
snip

Police said the blasts were caused by suspected suicide bombers. Police sources earlier told Reuters the Radisson blast had been caused by a bomb placed in a false ceiling.snip"

[barb162]

23. update

"King Abdullah cancels trip to Israel after Amman triple suicide bombing
Last update - 22:13 10/11/2005"

By Yoav Stern and Zohar Blumenkrantz, Haaretz Correspondents, and News Agencies

www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643639.html
"snip
...It was still unclear whether there were any other Israeli casualties in the attack. Hours before the bombings, many Israelis were evacuated from the Radisson SAS, one of the hotels hit in the attacks, apparently due to a specific security alert."snip"

----------------

"Specific security alert" which I am sure we will be hearing about as various facts develop on this story

[daleo]

49. That story mentions this claim of an early evacuation

Then, embedded in that story is link to a different story that denies the early evacuation. I don't know what to think of that.

Key part of story 1, with link on the word "evacuated":
"It was still unclear whether there were any other Israeli casualties in the attack. Hours before the bombings, many Israelis were evacuated from the Radisson SAS, one of the hotels hit in the attacks, apparently due to a specific security alert."

Which then links to a story that begins with this:
"There is no truth to reports that Israelis staying at the Radisson SAS hotel in Amman on Wednesday were evacuated by Jordanian security forces before the bombing that took place there."

[smallprint]

25. LA Times article: former IDF leader confirms Israeli evacuation

snip

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Israelis staying at the Radisson on Wednesday had been evacuated before the attacks and escorted back home "apparently due to a specific security threat."

Amos N. Guiora, a former senior Israeli counterterrorism official, said in a phone interview with The Times that sources in Israel had also told him about the pre-attack evacuations.

"It means there was excellent intelligence that this thing was going to happen," said Guiora, a former leader of the Israel Defense Forces who now heads the Institute for Global Security Law and Policy at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland. "The question that needs to be answered is why weren't the Jordanians working at the hotel similarly removed?"

more:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-111005-bombing_lat,0,7773818.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[fooj]

33. That was the article I originally read...

Peace.

[lovuian]

41. So there must have been eye witnesses to the bus evacuations

This will go on King of Jordan's shoulders???

its so interesting to see how AlQuida can twist and turn events ...

[lovuian]

36. when the attack came the Haaretz announced they

evacuated the Israeli tourists before the attack... this is a covering Haaretz butt thats what this is about!!!

One Israeli killed and the Palestinian Major general of Intelligence killed as well...
In addition to the two Americans, the dead included 33 Jordanians, many with families ties to the Palestinian West Bank; six Iraqis; two Bahrainis; at least two Chinese; one Indonesian; and one Saudi. The others had not yet been identified. Officials said the death toll of 59 — which includes the three attackers — could rise because several of the 100 or so wounded victims were seriously hurt.

We Duers caught this mistake early in the reporting!!!

[barb162]

43. Well, I think it will be interesting to see what really transpires

when it all settles down. BTW I am wondering if the supposed security alert (if it ever happened before the blasts) was perhaps about something completely different than the blasts. We are very early into the story.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

47. Nothing Will Transpire.....

Nothing to see here....move along......

They'll close the book and change the subject before they would ever admit to knowing and evacuating in advance. Unless they left a trail or some other evidence, this will get swept under the rug....as so many things do these days.

I'm not saying the original story is true.....but if it were.....they would never allow the truth to come out, methinks.

[lovuian]

48. Wouldn't the King of Jordan want to get to the bottom of this???

or will it be like Code Danger or like the 9/11 Commission???

a smokescreen??? Al Quida who are they???

really???

[barb162]

50. update from Palestine Media Center

http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=1&id=1032
An official Jordanian spokesman categorically denied on Thursday a report by the Israeli daily Haaretz that a number of Israelis staying at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces and escorted back to Israel by security personnel.

[Wordie]

53. There are some contradictory reports on this...

Some are discussed in this other DU thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5315313&mesg_id=5315313

The thread includes earlier text that says the Israelis were warned BEFORE the attacks.
<snip>
78. This from the LA Times
The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Israelis staying at the Radisson on Wednesday had been evacuated before the attacks and escorted back home "apparently due to a specific security threat."

Amos N. Guiora, a former senior Israeli counter-terrorism official, said in a phone interview with The Times that sources in Israel had also told him about the pre-attack evacuations.

"It means there was excellent intelligence that this thing was going to happen," said Guiora, a former leader of the Israel Defense Forces who now heads the Institute for Global Security Law and Policy at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland. "The question that needs to be answered is why weren't the Jordanians working at the hotel similarly removed?"

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-f

[Behind the Aegis]

54. Compare and contrast

The thread you quote says, "Amos N. Guiora, a former senior Israeli counter-terrorism official, said in a phone interview with The Times that sources in Israel had also told him about the pre-attack evacuations." A former official who says sources told him about the pre-attack evacuations. This is from yesterday.

More recently, "An official Jordanian spokesman categorically denied on Thursday a report by the Israeli daily Haaretz that a number of Israelis staying at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces and escorted back to Israel by security personnel." An official Jordanian has denied the earlier reports. link

Isn't it possible that the former senior official had the same source that Ha'aretz did? If so, then it has been categorically denied by a Jordanian official.

[Wordie]

78. That's speculative.

[Behind the Aegis]

79. and?

[MojoXN]

56. Bullshit.

Just like Netanyahu wasn't warned prior to the London 7/7 bombings, even though four different media outlets reported that he had been, just like two Odigo employees didn't receive IM's warning of 9/11 early that morning... I gotta tell you, it's getting old, Israel. Why not just admit that Mossad isn't in the habit of sharing couterterrorism intelligence with non-Israelis, because it's obvious that that is the case.

MojoXN

[Behind the Aegis]

57. .

PMC

[MojoXN]

58. What's your point?

This has nothing to do with the veracity, or lack thereof, of the Haaretz report. Just because Jordan had no knowledge of individuals acting under Jordanian auspices doesn't mean that Mossad or others didn't take action to remove Israelis without bothering to inform anyone else.

What is the motto of Mossad? "By way of deception, thou shalt do war."

Think about that.

MojoXN

[Behind the Aegis]

59. You would rather deal in specualtion than reality.

It would seem that no matter who claimed this did not happen, you already know the truth.

[MojoXN]

60. After seeing the EXACT same thing happen again and again,, for YEARS...

Yes, I do feel that way. Nonetheless, if Haaretz said that Jordanian security forces evacuated Israelis, I take it to mean that Mossad agents, posing as Jordanians so as to not arouse suspicion, spearheaded the evacuation. Why would a reputable paper (other than the NYT) make something like this up? They wouldn't, plain and simple.

If Israelis have never received special treatment with respect to early warning of terrorist attacks, then why is it that it has been reported, time and again, that various Israelis received advance notice of nearly every major terrorist incident for the last four years?

And before you ask, no, I'm not anti-Semitic. If people working on behalf of the Chinese, Russian, or Canadian governments were taking the same actions, I would be just as critical. Also, my fiancee is Jewish. Plus, I like latkes, lox, and gefilte fish... Mmm... Gefilte Fish. :)

MojoXN

[Behind the Aegis]

61. So you say....

"If Israelis have never received special treatment with respect to early warning of terrorist attacks, then why is it that it has been reported, time and again, that various Israelis received advance notice of nearly every major terrorist incident for the last four years?"

Ever think there may be a deliberate misinformation campaign to make Israelis and Jews look like they know what is happening before time? Ever read the "Protocols?" If not, you should. Replace "Zionist" with Jew or "Israel," and you will see some of the EXACT same reports showing up all over the place.

Because there are few or no dead Israelis, there must be a "plot?" Maybe, just maybe, Israelis take threats more seriously. To this day, even after 9-11, if someone said there is a credible threat against the so-and-so hotel on such and such day, there are many, especially here, that would die because they would think it was a joke or a "political ploy." Israelis don't have that luxury.

[MojoXN]

62. If the report had originated with al-Jazeera...

I wouldn't put too much stock into it. But, in this case, it was an ISRAELI source that reported this.

"Maybe, just maybe, Israelis take threats more seriously." Indeed! As well they should! But, following that line of reasoning, why weren't non-Israelis notified of a threat? You can't have it both ways; MANY Israelis frequent Jordanian hotels, particularly the Radisson, and other Western-operated establishments. If NOT A SINGLE Israeli was injured or killed, then that is indicative of something other than random good fortune. Occam's Razor, and all that.

Fuck the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Racist bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. Just the same, criticizing Israel is no different than criticizing any other nation.

MojoXN

[Coastie for Truth]

66. If you work for a major, multi-national corporation

with a reasonably professional "security" department -- and at a least a centralized clearinghouse for (overseas) travel - then, to paraphrase your append---

...following that line of reasoning, why weren't non-IBMers, non-CITIGroup employees, non-HP employees, non-Microsoft employees, non-Oracle employees, non-GMers, etc. notified of a threat? You can't have it both ways; MANY people who don't work for IBM or CITIGroup or HP or JP Morgan-Chase or Intel or Microsoft or Oracle or Cisco or Bankof AmericaWachovia frequent Jordanian hotels, particularly the Radisson, and other Western-operated establishments. If NOT A SINGLE IBM employee or CITIGROUP employee or JP Morgan-Chase employee or Cisco employee or Oracle employee was injured or killed, then that is indicative of something other than random good fortune. Occam's Razor, and all that.

Yes - I do live in Silicon Valley. Yes - I did retire from one of those companies. Yes I do remember the travel advisories on our internal "wwws" and "http://-1" web sites. Yes I do remember the phone calls and e-mails to employees travelling on business.

Sometimes even the Boise and Poughkeepsie and Midland-Saginaw airports are missing the usual "suits."

[eyl]

81. And it was the same source

that later retracted that claim.

Not to mention that the "Israelis were warned beforehand" allegations which seemingly crop up after every major terrorist atatck have tend to turn out to be false (4,000 Jews didn't get to work on 9/11, anyone?)...

[Coastie for Truth]

67. I flew east on 9/7/01

even though my security conscious employer had put out a "Minimize Travel Alert" before Labor Day.

[Jim Sagle]

71. Hopefully she'll read this and drop you like a sack of garbage.

[Wordie]

74. Israel has defined a policy of "hot pursuit" of Palestinians who she IDs

as being involved with "terror." Isn't that true? So why would you claim that speculation, when facts are murky, is unreasonable?

I think we just don't know, since we've gotten contradictory reports on this.

[eyl]

82. I fail to understand the conenction here

are you claiming this was an Israeli operation aimed against "Palestinians who ID'ed as being involved with terror"?

[Wordie]

86. I'm not claiming anything.

My point is that because Israeli policy is as aggressive as it is (and by its own admission it is highly aggressive), that all sorts of speculations become entirely warranted. (The post to which I replied had said, " You would rather deal in speculation than reality," in response to a comment to which he/she objected.) If you had a neighbor who said "I believe in killing cats," and then your cat is killed, is it unreasonable to then begin speculating that your neighbor did it? And if if your neighbor happened to be Israeli, it still wouldn't be bigoted or anti-semitic to speculate in this way, imo.

In this case, we have an incident and quite a few contradictory news reports. It seems to me that it is still open to discussion. Why did this happen? Who did it? These seem to me to be open questions still.

[eyl]

87. You said Israel

has a policy of "hard pursuit" of terrorists. So who are the terrorists who were "pursued" here (the cat, in your analogy)?

[Wordie]

92. The point: in light of such an aggressive policy, speculation is normal.

What else would one expect? I personally don't know what happened and haven't claimed to know. But speculation is entirely warranted given Israel's stated policies of aggressive pursuit, even across borders, of those she considers threats or enemies. If the speculation is not comfortable for Israel, Israel should change the policies that lead to it, imho.

Spelling edit.

[eyl]

94. One more time

you're saying that Israel's policy of "hard pursuit of terrorists" caues speculation Israel is behind the bombings. That means there is some similiar pattern between Israel's general policy and this case. Except that in fact, the only similarity is that a bomb was used, but unlike in previous Israeli assassinations (which have been rather rare, recently, outside the Territories):

1) A number of massive bombs were used
2) There apparently weren't any terrorists targeted
3) Israel didn't assume responsibility

So your "speculation" is rather reaching..

[Wordie]

96. If I said 1000 times that I DO NOT KNOW, would it make any difference? eom

[eyl]

64. You mean the

story about Netanyahu's preknowledge which was later retracted by AP?
As this shows, these initial reports are not always true.

[Freedomfried]

63. The Mossad evacuated the Israelis, not Jordanian security.

Of course the "story" isn't "true".

[eyl]

65. Several observations

1) This isn't the first time such claims (of Israeli forknowledge of a terrorist attack) were made, and then retracted; see for example Netanyahu and the London bombing.

2) Some people here are dismissing the retraction because it came from an Israeli source, despite the fact that A) the original claim came from the same source and B) both PMC and Al-Jazeera, neither of which have been especially inclined to publish something which could be taken as "pro-Israeli", both published the retraction

3) Even if there was prior warning, it may not be as nefarious as some here some to imply. For every bomb warning where a bombing actually ocurs, there are many where nothing happens. Israelis, however, are preconditioned to take them more seriously; so it's entirely possible that Israeli security services had a warning, passed it on, and evacuated their personel; but the Jordainians didn't take it seriously enough.

[Wordie]

75. #3 is possible. (It's speculative yet nobody has jumped all over you. hmm)

Actually, your theory regarding relative responses to warnings, given the two countries' very different levels of violence, does seem to be within the realm of possibility. But some of the other theories mentioned in this thread also seem within the realm of possiblity.

I personally think speculation, when the facts are unclear, is normal, reasonable, and even desireable. Trying out hypotheses in order to try to establish the truth is what intelligent people DO. The only reason I brought up this question is to ask why it is only *certain* speculation that some posters work so feverishly to quash.

Edited for clarity.

[eyl]

83. Of course it's speculation

but given that the source for these evacuation claims (as well as other sources, e.g. the Jordanian government) retracted those claims, and that allegations of this sort seem to crop up after every major terrorist attack, and that, as mentioned above, both the PMC and Al-Jazeera - hardly pro-Israeli sources - both ran the retraction, it's much more likely than not that the original allegations were in error (unless you have further information you'd like to share with us?)

[Wordie]

84. I hardly know. Neither do you. Speculation, imo, therefore, is warranted.

This hardly seems a done deal at this point, especially since there have been conflicting reports. It seems still quite early to know for sure what happened. (I'm just saying that I don't like efforts to prematurely cut off conversation about an issue when it becomes uncomfortable for one side. I hardly need to have further information in order to make this observation, nor to continue to discuss the information that is available.)

It also seem to me quite reasonable to speculate about causes, when there are people involved in our own and Israeli policy-making who, like Michael Ledeen, for instance, advocate "creative destruction" - violence in pursuit of political goals. Is it any wonder people ask these questions?

[eyl]

88. Except that speculation is based on information

and here you have none - since the source which provided the information retracted it.

[Wordie]

91. There are those who have defined "destabilization" of ME countries as a

reasonable and sensible policy. These individuals exist within the U.S. policy making community, and in Israel's. I am telling you now, about *public* comments that these individuals have made advocating these things, not something I've seen on some wacko conspiracy site (and I completely agree that there are *some* sites dealing with this issue that are truly wacko - I just don't think that criticism of Israeli policies, even intense criticism, in and of itself ought automatically to place one in either the "wacko" or "anti-semitic" category).

Here is a link to a paper written in 1996 for Netanyahu by Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser: http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm Check it out yourself.
(It talks about "destabilizing" those countries with which Israel does not agree. From such a policy basis as that, is it any wonder people begin to speculate about Israeli motives when destablizing events occur?)

Once persons in my own government, or those who advise high level persons in my government, make such statements (and there are plenty more statements advocating violence and destruction of enemies), I believe it is really quite reasonable, then, when these things happen, to speculate about possible causes other than the official ones. Again, I am in no way saying that I believe one thing or another. I personally am left feeling I cannot know, because so much of the information is questionable, or comes from sources that may have a horse in the race.

And besides, the LA Times report still stands, as far as I know.

[eyl]

95. Even if you assume

- which I don't - that paper influences Israeli policy, that paper specifically describes Jordan as an ally, not a target for "destabilization". BTW, there's a difference between "countries with which Israel does not agree" (your phrase) and "its most dangerous threats" (the phrasing in the paper).

As for the LA Times report, you'll note that it's primarily based on the erroneous Haaretz report. We don't know what sources Guiora used, but they could be the same as Haaretz's. Note that contrary to what the LA Times stated, Guiora was not a "senior counter-terrorism official", but was rather a lawyer in the IDF's Military Advocate General.

[centristo]

76. hnmmm

First off, is anyone here shocked at all that there are conflicting stories regarding an incident involving Israel?

Second, I had lunch last week with an Orthodox Jew who had been living in Israel for a year. He was studying to be a cantor there and his school/campus utilized a security service for all students. He told me that it was not uncommon for him to receive advanced warning of terrorist attacks. He spoke of a specific incident where he was at one of those outdoor markets, got a call or a text message on his cell phone to get the hell out of there, which he did immediately, and later found out a bombing had been thwarted at that location by the IDF/Mossad/whoever.

It would not be shocking to me if the Israelis did evacuate early. As to why all the non-Israelis stayed, who can know at this point? It would be pure speculation to say one thing or another. I think all the facts will present themselves in time.

[eyl]

80. You have to understand

there are some warnings all the time; some are what we call "focused" (i.e. regarding a specific locale and/or MO) ad others are general. But even the "focused" warnings, more often than not, don't result in an actual attack, either because the attacker didn't set out, was stopped en route, or other reasons.

[Wordie]

89. Here is an interesting different take on this story.

I personally don't have the answer to the debate on this issue (not enough info for me), but am posting this thought-provoking article for other DUers to have a chance to look at some alternative sides of it.
http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/AmmanInsideJob.htm

Jordan Hotels Blitz Was An Inside Job

BreakForNews.com, Friday 11/11/'05.
Story by Fintan Dunne, Editor.
Research by Kathy McMahon
<snip>
If Al-Qaida was a marketing brand then the three bombs that rocked the Jordanian capital Amman would be a new catastrophe for its tarnished global brand image.

So, you would expect a real terrorist organization to be rather shy at admitting responsibility for bombing the Hyatt, Radisson and Days Inn hotels in Amman. But al-Qaida(TM), in the shape of the omnipresent, yet elusive Musab al-Zarqawi, has never shied away from proudly claiming to have scored a new victory with each shot fired at his reported remaining foot.

Which is enough to make a level-headed person question if any real terror group could not only be dumb enough as to glibly admit to killing the many Palestinians who died in the attacks, but also dim-witted enough to have conceived of staging such attacks in the first place.

But if Al-Qaida didn't do it, who did?

[newyorican]

90. Dear Scrubbers...you missed a spot...

Scores dead in three Amman hotel bombings; Israelis evacuated before attack

A number of Israelis staying yesterday at the Radisson SAS were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces, apparently due to a specific security alert. They were escorted back to Israel by security personnel.

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/643691.html

Hmmm...updated or scrubbed? We Report, You Decide...

[eyl]

93. You did notice, did you not

that the OP is a retraction of the claim you made here?

[barb162]

97. So the official Palestinian news agency is scrubbing too?

and so are Jordanian officials?


http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=1&id=1032
An official Jordanian spokesman categorically denied on Thursday a report by the Israeli daily Haaretz that a number of Israelis staying at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces and escorted back to Israel by security personnel