Blast bloodies wedding reception

[barb162]

Bashir Nafeh, head of Palestinian intelligence services killed in the Hyatt blast


"Thursday 10 November 2005, 5:01 Makka Time, 2:01 GMT


Jordanian groom Ashraf Mohammed al-Akhras and his new bride, Nadia al-Alami, both lost their fathers to a deadly blast that ripped through their wedding reception in an Amman luxury hotel.

snip


The head of the Palestinian intelligence services, Bashir Nafeh, was among those killed in the blasts.

snip
The blast wounded film director
Akkad (R) and killed his daughter

Syrian film director Mustafa Akkad was wounded and his daughter Rima killed in the same blast."

snip
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/44024C2F-73E3-4B04-9F39-3AEC8C0847B4.htm

[Behind the Aegis]

1. What a tragedy!

I must say I was so shocked to hear about this this morning. Jordan of all places!

Has anyone claimed responsibility? What are the theories behind the blasts?

[barb162]

4. They have been talking on TV and elsewhere about al qaida

or related groups, but no one has claimed responsibility yet. Theories? The usual suspects: I have heard reasons from American hotels, to Jordan's a US ally to they thought that they could kill a lot of diplomats and Americans in these three hotels, etc. There was supposedly a vehicle parked near the area that they found loaded with explosives also. I even heard the date was significant (though I don't think so) 11-9, 9-11, etc. They mentioned Jordan has unusually good security and intelligence about these kinds of things.


I was very shocked also. And yes, a tragedy... and for what

[pelsar]

6. why the shock?

the grievance of anyone can now turn to suicide bombing as a way of expressing themselves.....its quite acceptable amongst some subcultures today....

[Behind the Aegis]

7. So sadly true.

I guess my shock is more disbelief than anything. I guess I am also waiting for those to say this attack is some how justifiable.

[barb162]

12. Good question

But shock, disgust, etc., is what I experienced also. Any time innocent civilians just going about their ordinary day to day business are hit, whether Jordan, Iraq, Israel, Madrid, London, etc., by the al qaida type bombers, it's just so horrible. The Jordanians will backlash

[newyorican]

2. Israelis evacuated from Amman hotel hours before bombings

A number of Israelis staying on Wednesday at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces, apparently due to a specific security alert. They were escorted back to Israel by security personnel.

The Foreign Ministry stated Wednesday that no Israeli tourists are known to have been injured in the blasts. Representatives of Israel's embassy in Amman were in contact with local authorities to examine any report of injured Israelis, but none were received. There are often a number of Israeli businessman and tourists in Amman, including in the hotels hit Wednesday.

Link

This will probably generate more heat than light, but it's part of the story for better or worse. I find it inexplicable that evacuation was limited in any way if there was specific information.

[eyl]

8. No truth to report of Israeli evacuations before Amman bombs

There is no truth to reports that Israelis staying at the Radisson SAS hotel in Amman on Wednesday were evacuated by Jordanian security forces before the bombing that took place there.

The Israelis were escorted back to Israel by Jordanian security personnel only after the attacks had taken place, contrary to earlier reports.

Source

[newyorican]

15. Not sure this is going away easily...

Suicide Attacks Kill at Least 57 at 3 Hotels in Jordan's Capital

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Israelis staying at the Radisson on Wednesday had been evacuated before the attacks and escorted back home "apparently due to a specific security threat."

Amos N. Guiora, a former senior Israeli counter-terrorism official, said in a phone interview with The Times that sources in Israel had also told him about the pre-attack evacuations.

"It means there was excellent intelligence that this thing was going to happen," said Guiora, a former leader of the Israel Defense Forces who now heads the Institute for Global Security Law and Policy at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland. "The question that needs to be answered is why weren't the Jordanians working at the hotel similarly removed?"

Link

I must say it sounds rather incredible.

[eyl]

21. See post #20

[newyorican]

3. At least 67 killed, 115 hurt in three Amman suicide bombings

Suspected suicide bombers struck almost simultaneously at three hotels in downtown Amman on Wednesday night, killing at least 67 people, Jordanian Deputy Prime Minister Marwan Muasher said.

More than 115 others were wounded in the attacks at the Radisson SAS, Days Inn and Grand Hyatt, where the bomber is believed to have blown up in a banquet hall where a wedding reception was underway. The Radisson is known to be popular with Israeli tourists.

"There were three terrorist attacks on the Grand Hyatt, Radisson SAS and Days Inn hotels and it is believed that the blasts were suicide bombings," police spokesman Major Bashir al-Da'aja told The Associated Press. He declined to elaborate.

Most of the victims of the attacks were Jordanian, Muashar said.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attacks, but security officials said that the bombings bore the hallmarks of Al-Qaida.

Link

[pelsar]

5. they had no choice...

the bombers obviously had no choice but to blow up those hotels...i really do understand them and believe the jordanians should have been a little more understanding toward the suicide bombers.....

who do we blame?....the apologiests...those who agreed with the suicide bombers and the societies that created, substained and nourished them.

This is no surprise, quite the contrary, once the suicide bomber targeting civilians became morally acceptable, thanks to those in the west who "understood them" but hardly understood the ramifications.....they've now spread...they're morally acceptable methods elsewhere...all over the world...with the main target being " the enemy civilian" any where and everywhere.

The PA, its society was never taken to task for their suicide bombers and the celebration of the death cult that is part and parcel of it, .....now its will be very difficult to "turn back the clock"

[TomClash]

9. It's always been difficult "to turn back the clock" on suicide bombers

23 Then the lords of the Philistines gathered them together for to offer a great sacrifice unto Dagon their god, and to rejoice: for they said, Our god hath delivered Samson our enemy into our hand.

24 And when the people saw him, they praised their god: for they said, Our god hath delivered into our hands our enemy, and the destroyer of our country, which slew many of us.

25 And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said, Call for Samson, that he may make us sport. And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made them sport: and they set him between the pillars.

26 And Samson said unto the lad that held him by the hand, Suffer me that I may feel the pillars whereupon the house standeth, that I may lean upon them.

27 Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport.

28 And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.

29 And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.

30 And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

Judges 16:23-30

[Colorado Blue]

18. Hello? And that was in WHAT YEAR? This is 2005. Please

do NOT conflate an ancient story with a current news event. That's just nuts.

[TomClash]

22. There's an obvious point to the "ancient story"

I'm sorry you missed it.

[eyl]

23. relevance?

Or should we also adopt, say, the (more recent, after all) Roman methods when dealing with the intifada?

[TomClash]

26. Good God

The reference isn't that obscure is it?

There's nothing new about the horror of suicide bombing - Samson used the equivalent himself.

Viewed objectively, suicide bombing is simply another tool of asymmetrical warfare. Israel, the US and others dislike it because it is difficult to combat and makes their political leaders lose face with their constituents. They would rather have the Palestinians and Iraqi insurgents simply stand and fight like lambs to the slaughter in the wake of Israeli/American superior firepower.

Absurd is the notion that collateral damage, in reality knowledge that the "terrorists" are accompanied or close to innocent civilians who are in turn killed when the terrorists are killed, is a morally acceptable form of killing. In the GPS age, this is dubious at best.

I think suicide bombing is nothing more than another fools' errand. It has not been an effective political tool. But to say that the Palestinians are to be blamed because others are now using it makes no sense because then we'd logically have to trace that tactic to the "ancient story" - and who wrote that?

[eyl]

27. Oh, it wasn't obscure at all

just not very relevent.

First of all, Samson was a single man, who was about to die anyway. You don't see a trend where the subsequent Jewisj leaders encouraged others to do the same, do you?

More importantly, this was over 3,000 years ago. If someone does something, and two others did the same thing - one a year ago and one 1,000 years ago - I'd say it's much more likely he was inspired by the former. Especially since throughout the Arab world here exists a culture of praise and exaltation for the suicide bombers, but not for Samson..

Absurd is the notion that collateral damage, in reality knowledge that the "terrorists" are accompanied or close to innocent civilians who are in turn killed when the terrorists are killed, is a morally acceptable form of killing. In the GPS age, this is dubious at best.

GPS is all well and good, but it's often not as effective as it's cracked up to be, especially in close quarters.

[TomClash]

31. Israeli leaders don't have to encourage suicide bombings

Israel has 100 nuclear weapons and the dominant military in the region.

What does this "culture of praise" represent? It is war and it is virtually the only means they have to fight. It is the only time these people get back at Israelis for occupying their land. They are subjecting Israelis to the same kind of suffering they endure under the occupation. That's why there is praise. It's not the act itself but rather the suffering they get to inflict on the average Israeli that they praise.

[eyl]

32. So?

In a way, that's even worse.

[TomClash]

36. Worse for peace?

I'd agree.

By the way, Palestinians are quite capable of reading the Book of Judges. And the fact that the story is 3,000 years old is frankly irrelevant given the number of bibles published around the world.

[eyl]

41. I'm quite aware they're capable of reading, thank you

but there has been no tradition since then exalting that. BTW, has any Palestinian leader ever cited Samson as inspiration?

[TomClash]

43. Not the point

The point was to show the Palestinians didn't exactly invent suicide bombing.

The Palestinians don't exactly have a tradition of suicide bombing either. It is a tactic in a war.

[eyl]

44. One which is glorified,

exalted and encouraged

[TomClash]

49. Ask yourself

why that is. I already gave you the answer.

[pelsar]

50. the excuse.....

What does this "culture of praise" represent? It is war and it is virtually the only means they have to fight.

It seems that now some of the palestenians are realizing that as a tactic that is not only destructive to their own society far more than it has been to israel, but that targeting weddings is not such great idea after all......

[pelsar]

29. the palestenains made it "famous"

its not who invented it...its who made it "acceptable" to target civilians....that is the palestenain legacy. They somehow convinced so many people (like the mayor of london) that its just dandy to go out and look for children to kill...and then celebrate if one succceed.

view "objectivly" you would have to take a look at what suicide bombers do to their own society: the require a "dealth cult" . One that says:

"Its good to kill children and other civilians not involved in the conflict"

that is what seems to be difficult for you to grasp....and that is the moral difference between the soldier of a western govt vs a suicide bomber.

let me repeat it:
suicide bomber: looks to kill children and others not involved in the conflict
US/israeli soldier: trys not to kill those not involved

sucide bombers friends and relatives: celebrates when they kill civilians
US/israeli soldier: no celebration, feels bad when they kill those not involved.

and to you..there is no difference?

[TomClash]

30. So you think intent is a difference

I understand your argument - it is the current mantra - and you don't need to patronize me.

I think it is a distinction without a difference. If the IDF (or the USAF or other nations' militaries) conducts thousands of sorties against "terrorist targets" and knows each and every time that innnocent men, women or children may be killed, how is that "different" in any meaningful way? It is still indiscriminate killing.

When the Americans dropped Fat Man and Little Boy on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was that not a terrorist act? When they firebombed Tokyo, a city made of wood, in 1945 killing most of the city's population, was that not a terrorist act? Or was the US using its advantage in warfare to fight the enemy?

When the heads of the Irgun and the Stern Gang conducted terrorist acts against Arabs and the British, what happened? They were national heroes and became Prime Ministers of Israel. Your country pins medals on soldiers who "accidently" and often kill children, so spare me the moral superiority of the Israeli soldier. And there is no appreciable difference between dropping ordinance on a neighborhood in Gaza City a hundred times, saying "I'm sorry civilians were killed" and the suicide bomber killing innocent civilians. Both are reprehensible and unjustifiable but war is war. That's why so many military men and women oppose it.

[eyl]

33. Wrong

First of all, regarding your point on the Etzel and Lehi, you might want to remember that their actions were condemned at the time, and that while some of their leaders did eventually become PMs, that was after about a generation spent in the political hinterlands.

And attacking a military target, even if you know civilians will be hurt in the process, does not fall under "indiscriminate". Part of the flip side of civilian inviolability is that the forces of their own side may not use them as hostages to shield themselves.

[TomClash]

34. Wrong

They were in the political wilderness because their policies were seen as extremist. That doesn't change the fact that Israelis later elected these erstwhile terrorists.

Not indiscriminate if you know civilians are among the terrorists? How is that so?

So the next time Hamas hits a bus of soldiers that is also carrying civilians that will be a legitimate target?

[Englander]

42. Also, members of Irgun & Stern were awarded medals.

'>snip

ETZEL (Irgun) Ribbon

Established in 1979. Awarded to members of ETZEL (Irgun) underground for the period of 1937-48. In 1931 a group of Haganah members seceded from the organization, refusing to accept the authority of the parity committee - High Command. Shortly afterwards, from 1932 on, the breakaway group, headed by Avraham Tehomi, became known as the National Military Organization (Irgun tzeva'i le'umi) or its acronym, Etzel. This organization received the full backing of Ze'ev Jabotinsky's Revisionist Party and partial support from factions of the right-wing General Zionists and the Mizrahi.

LEHI (Stern) Ribbon

Established in 1980. Awarded to members of LEHI underground for the period of 1940-48. A smaller group, led by Abraham (Yair) Stern, deemed Britain to be the bitter enemy of Zionism, which should be fought militarily by means of guerrilla action and terrorism. After Jabotinsky died in 1940, this group seceded from the Etzel and began to operate separately under the name "Etzel in Israel" (popularly known as the Stern Group or Stern Gang). After the murder of Stern by the British in February 1942, the new leaders of the group (Natan Yellin- Mor, Yitzhak Shamir, and Yisrael Eldad) reorganized their underground group under the name Lohamei Herut Yisrael (Jewish Freedom Fighters) and its acronym, LEHI.

http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/medals/IsraelIEPE.html

Pics of the 'Etzel Ribbon award ceremony';

'Official recognition of the contribution of the Etzel underground organization in the struggle for an independent state of Israel came only after former Etzel leader Menahem Begin became prime minister of Israel in 1977. Presentation of the ribbon started in 1979. Here follow some pictures of the April 4, 1979 ceremony at the Western Wall, Jerusalem.'

http://www.yairmalachi.org/MedalsOfIsrael/MODServiceRibbons/EtzelRibbon.htm

[eyl]

45. Again, note the year

actually, note who was PM then as well

[Englander]

46. If you don't like those examples of how Irgun &tc are celebrated;

Try these;

'5 - Nov - 2002
The Baker's Daughter

Braiding challa rolls and preparing pie fillings did not appeal to teenager Ahuva Meisells, who grew up in Jerusalem during the British Mandate. The daughter of Hassidic baker, Avraham Gerlitz, Ahuva was interested in his political discussions about the deteriorating situation of the Jews in pre-State Palestine.

>snip

Today, Ahuva, a retired Jewish studies teacher, volunteers for the Committee for the Lehi Heritage. Its museum is located in the building of Stern's final hideout in Tel Aviv's Florentine neighborhood.

As a Ministry of Defense museum, soldiers guide visitors throughout the two floor structure with permanent exhibitions about Stern's life and death, the struggle against the British, the split from Etzel, and a clandestine weapons production shop.

Volunteers who were former Lehi members, provide firsthand accounts of their experiences. The Committee for the Lehi Heritage organizes lectures and workshops for students, as well study days for teachers, historians and researchers. A publishing house publishes members' memoirs. Annual events include memorials to members and awards are presented to young people writing about the Lehi. A Hebrew Internet site was recently set up.

"There is an increased interest in Lehi's legacy and Avraham Stern," observes Ahuva. "Many high school and university students do research at the museum. The 60thanniversary of Stern's assassination was commemorated at the Knesset in February, and every year more and more people visit his gravesite in Tel Aviv."

http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1183

___________________________________


'Limor Livnat quadrupled budget of association run by her mother
By Ayelet Fishbein

Eduction Minister Limor Livnat has quadrupled the budget of the association that her mother, Shulamit Livnat, runs on a salaried basis.

Shulamit Livnat, known as the chanteuse of the pre-state Lehi and Etzel (Irgun) undergrounds, has been running the Rina Mor National College association for the past 20 years.

Since her daughter became education minister in March 2001, the association began to receive generous support from the ministry, and the salaries of its officers have also increased.

In the 2001 budget, while Ehud Barak was prime minister, the association received NIS 66,847 - only a quarter of its former budget. But in the 2002 budget, which was drafted entirely by Livnat, the minister introduced a new regulation intended to provide support for "educational activity for the study of the heritage of the defense forces and undergrounds in the pre-state period, such as Etzel, Lehi and others."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/642657.html


:)

[eyl]

48. Are you going to argue with what I actually claimed?

I didn't say there wasn't eventually recognition of the Lehi; I'm aying it took over 30 years after they were disbanded, and they were condmened by the Yishuv at the time.

[Englander]

51. I'll have a go.

Some of that I agree with - I'd hope that Begin et al were condemned,
& consigned to being an opposition party. But. I've just had a look
at the results for the 1st Knesset, & Herut, the party formed by
veterans of Irgun, was the fourth-largest party, with 11%, and a dozen
seats. So, there's that.

'Factional and Government Make-Up of the First Knesset'
http://www.knesset.gov.il/history/eng/eng_hist1_s.htm

On edit;

Another, notorious, member of the 1st Knesset;

'Natan Yellin-Mor

- Active in Betar and Revisionist Movements in Poland
- In 1933 appointed Officer of the Commissionership of Betar in Poland
- In 1937 in Warsaw he met Avraham Stern (Yair) a member of the Etzel Command in pre-State Israel
- Edited the Etzel publication “The State” in Poland, 1938-1939
- One of the planners of assassination of Lord Moyne, the British High Commissioner, in Cairo in 1944
- In 1948 was accused of the murder of the UN Mediator Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte and was sentenced to eight years in jail
- Released after elected to First Knesset at the head of the “Fighters List” of former “Lehi” members
- In 1949 “Lehi” split and the Left Faction led by Yellin-Mor created the “Fighters Party”
- Active in promoting friendship with the Soviet Union and took part in gatherings promoting the idea of a Palestinian State'

http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mk_eng.asp?mk_individual_id_t=192

[Coastie for Truth]

52. So?

We old lefties have a term for that "A Dennis Prager Yahoo Search"

[Englander]

53. Can I have that translated, please?

Y'know, from Coastie-speak into English?

[Coastie for Truth]

54. Not Coastie speak - try Los Angeles speak.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. English would be just fine...

n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

58. The term was first used by Mark Levine

(Why They Don't Hate Us : Lifting the Veil on the Axis of Evil by Mark LeVine) to characterize the research methods used by right wing talk show host to attack progressive guests, writers, etc.

Specifically, LeVine accuses Prager of finding one "hit" out of several thousand entries that backs his position, and proclaiming "Ah Hah - I was right -says so on Google."

I believe it captures the essence of what passes for "research" on in many political chat rooms.

Since you're posting on a US web site involving (except when hijacked) US political issues - you should get conversant in American political terms.

[Englander]

59. Ah, I see, it's an irrelevant insult.

So, no change there, then.

Levine's version;

'March 14 -20, 2003
The Danger of Google History in a Time of War
Or ‘Dennis Prager called me a liar’
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:AggTUKS7ROUJ:www.ocweekly.com/ink/03/28/news-levine.php+Mark+LeVine+prager&hl=en

[Coastie for Truth]

61. No - just a comment about what passes for research and scholarship. NT

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eyl]

55. Maybe

put in practical terms, they had no real power until Begin won the 1977 election (in the earlier years, the second largest party didn't have that much power, much less the fourth).

[Englander]

60. Yes, mostly.

Gahal had a couple of members in the National Unity government, in
'67, & were part of the coalition for three years, appartently.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/history/eng/eng_hist6_s.htm

[newyorican]

14. Some do "facetious" really well...

however most do not. Exhibit A: Post# 5

Facetiousness and schadenfreude aside, the attempt to conflate Al-Qaeda with the Palestinians has been tried by those much better at it than you...and they have failed miserably.

A less imperfect comparison of an attack against a support network of a declared enemy across internationally recognized borders would be Israeli cross border attacks and raids into Lebanon to strike at support networks of Hizbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The biggest difference in that scenario is the delivery vehicle (F-14 versus Carbon-based life form).

[barb162]

16. Who might "those much better" be; maybe they were poor writers

Beside, wouldn't it be up to the individual reader to develop the opinion on whether others in fact have made the case rather than to say there is some miserable failing of anyone who makes the case... in your opinion.

I have seen writers make an excellent case as does Pelsar here. A suicide bomber blowing up innocent civilians is not someone I would defend.

ANd what's the diff about the Star Trek inspired "carbon-based" reference? The carbon unit kills 50+ innocent civilians, many at a wedding. The F-14 is going after known militants? Big diff.

[pelsar]

19. guess the palestenians disagree.......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051110/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_jordan_bombings

"Palestinians have tasted the blind violence that does not differentiate between people — children, women, wedding parties, ordinary people," said Palestinian newspaper commentator Hani al-Masri.

"I expect now a significant change in the Palestinian political culture," he said. "For sure, this attack will push Palestinians to reconsider this way of suicide bombings, and I think it would reduce support for attacks that kill people without any differentiation.


______________

eventually the palestenais will tell their "cheerleaders" where to go...since it is they that keep on "egging them on to kill civilians"....now that they got an actual taste of what its like...seems they disagree with your "version."....

[newyorican]

25. Who are these "cheerleaders"?

Perhaps I was too kind in using facetious, this is more like fececious.

[pelsar]

28. the cheerleaders...

are the ones not directly involved in the conflict...do not have to "pay any price" for egging the the palesteanian extremists on.

the cheerleaders are the ones who will call the jordanian sucide bombers "evil" and find the palestenain bomber "as having no choice" or will be described as a 'vehicle" or some other way of claiming that its "justified to target israeli civilians"

the cheerleaders can influence th "weak of mind" to go kill israelis while abhoring a suicide bomber in Egypt..they dont get their hands dirty, they dont pay any price for their influence, but what they do is flame the fires and keep it burning.

....the jordananin bombing and the senseless killing of palestenains for some "cause" is a small step in the right direction.....eventually the palestenains will figure it out, that their own suicide bombers have prolonged their own suffering and have made their situation far more worse.....eventually they'll get it

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

37. unlike many of the palestenains...

i didnt see any israelis cheering and celebrating the deaths of palestenains from the suicide bombers.......nor am i "gleeful"

at the sametime, it was reassuring to hear palestenains complain about the senseless killing caused by the suicide bombers....

maybe some of them might just figure it out that, thats how we see their suicide bombers.....(unlike the mayor of london for instance), and that would be a step in the right direction.

here let me add the obligatory: i abhore all violence and suffering in the middle east ( i believe that is what is usually said after a palestenain sucide bomber blows up some israeli children)

[newyorican]

38. Riiiight...

Your "abhorrence" shows in this memorial quote:

...the senseless killing of palestenains for some "cause" is a small step in the right direction..."

Statements like this are commonly known as committing a truth in a moment of unguarded honesty. I'd like to see where *anyone* has expressed the same sentiment concerning the senseless killing of Israelis.
:puke:

[pelsar]

39. wasnt unguarded at all.....

i meant what i wrote....whereas i can abhore killing i also live in a very real world where change in a countries/societies policies comes from pressure: be it economic or violent or a threat to the stability of the ruling party...wars are won by gains and losses...and everyone of those includes lives lost.

as far as people being satisfied that israelis are killed..nothing new


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=96217&mesg_id=96224


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=96747&mesg_id=96968

its usually disguised as "they deserve it"....or someother variation on the same track...

some of us have to deal with reality....a difficut concept for those who dont have countries teaching their young that I"m monster...or that its ok to wipe out my family and country..and that reality includes war.

but you probably would like to add the more detailed version of my quote:
"maybe some of them might just figure it out that, thats how we see their suicide bombers.....(unlike the mayor of london for instance), and that would be a step in the right direction."

[Violet_Crumble]

40. Neither of those posts expressed satisfaction at Israelis being killed...

There wasn't any disguise, or anything else. What you claimed they were saying just wasn't there...

The second post you linked to was by a very good friend of mine who abhors the killing of any civilians. She was reacting to the Israeli govt's politicised attacks on the Vatican, and in no way was she saying that Israeli civilians deserve to be killed. And the first poster you linked to was also talking about the govt and went on in the next few posts to say they thought the same way about the British govt. In the past I've been accused of celebrating the deaths of 9/11 because I'd said that the attacks were blowback for years of US foreign policy...

Also, if you believe that those posts are showing satisfaction that Israeli civilians die, then wouldn't that also apply to posters who react to the deaths of Palestinian civilians in Israeli rocket attacks, etc, who do an 'they deserve it' routine by going on about Israel having no choice because Hamas hides behind civlians?

btw, when you talk about countries teaching their children to hate and wipe out yr family, that's not dealing in reality, pelsar...

[pelsar]

47. the sites expressed an ambilvilance....

because they're israelis...big deal.....the listing was a simply response to the previous response.

a response such as: isreal HAS brought this on itself, get behind the green-line, war over"
is not only niave, but saying 'they deserve it".....its that simple.

but thats not the point...i really dont care if somebody in tibet mourns israeli dead or not...nor would I expect them to. I dont mourn palestenain dead.... i can feel bad that some were killed, but its no more than that...i also dont mourn Norwegians killed

as far countries teaching their kids to hate me etc...your saying thats not reality??..wow! I should ignore it? ..should the blacks have ignored the grown up children of the KKK?.

how is that NOT reality?...how many blood libels, progroms, anti semtic laws have to happen until the connection is made?...do you think that people just decide to 'hate israelis/jews" just because?......should the muslims ignore it when people teach that they are all terrorists?...or should we just laugh it off and say "thats not dealing with reality"...

the reality of teaching hate to children is very very dangerous and should never be "ignored" or written off as " not reality"...those kids grow up

[Violet_Crumble]

57. They didn't express satisfaction or ambivalence...

Neither post talked about civilians, but about the govts, and despite yr protestations, one poster did specifically say it applied to England as well. I take it then that you do also think that comments saying the Palestinians have brought it on themselves when Israel kills civilians is expressing ambivalence, if not outright satisfaction that Palestinians are dead, and they're doing it because they're Palestinians? If not, what's the difference?

Yes, actually I'm saying that claims that countries are teaching their kids to hate you isn't any more based in reality than saying Israel is teaching its kids to hate other people. I'm not quite sure how you'd go about ignoring something that doesn't exist, though. In fact, I think the attitude of believing that countries are teaching their kids to hate you is a terrible attitude to have, as it really does nothing but demonise other people...

Violet...

[barb162]

10. PM Condemns Terrorist Attacks in Amman

PM Condemns Terrorist Attacks in Amman

RAMALLAH, November 10, 2005 (WAFA) - Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei condemned on Thursday the terrorist attacks rocked three hotels in Amman, last night.
.
Speaking to journalists, Qurei described the attacks as a crime, saying "we condemned these attacks which targeted innocent citizens from different countries of the Arab world.".
.
He made it clear that such attacks arouse a state of instability and creates tension in the region, describing this day a sad one for the Palestinian and Jordanian people.
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Qurei said that, according to decision issued by President Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian flags were lowered to half mast as a sign of solidarity with the Jordanian people .
.
H.M (12:53 P) (10:53 GMT)
http://english.wafa.ps/body.asp?id=4549

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11. President Phones King of Jordan

DATE: 10/11/2005 TIME :22:06
President Phones King of Jordan

RAMALLAH, November 10, 2005 (WAFA) - President Mahmoud Abbas phoned on Thursday King Abdullah II of Jordan and conveyed his deep condolences over the death of scores of people in yesterday's Amman bombings.

President Abbas expressed his solidarity with the brotherly Jordanian people, renewing his condemnation of such a terror attack, which he described as a crime against humanity.

President Abbas sent yesterday a message of condolences to King Abdullah II expressing his and the Palestinian people solidarity with the Jordanian Kingdom.

A.D. (22:05 P) (20:05 GMT)
http://english.wafa.ps/body.asp?id=4555

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13. Zarqawi group claims Jordan attacks

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-11-10T174536Z_01_WRI970423_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SECURITY-JORDAN.xml

"snip
Al Qaeda in Iraq, led by Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, said in a statement on an Islamist Web site that "a group of our best lions" had carried out the attacks against the hotels because they were used by U.S. and Israeli spies.

"Some hotels were chosen which the Jordanian despot had turned into a backyard for the enemies of the faith, the Jews and crusaders," said the statement, referring to Jordan's King Abdullah. Its authenticity could not be immediately verified.

The hotels are frequented by Western security contractors, journalists and aid agency staff, many of whom use Amman as a transit point or base for their operations in Iraq.

But most victims were Jordanians. China said three of its nationals were among those killed. A Palestinian diplomat said a senior Palestinian officer and two other officials had died.
snip"

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17. update

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643639.html

update - 22:13 10/11/2005


King Abdullah cancels trip to Israel after Amman triple suicide bombing

By Yoav Stern and Zohar Blumenkrantz, Haaretz Correspondents, and News Agencies

"snip
It was still unclear whether there were any other Israeli casualties in the attack. Hours before the bombings, many Israelis were evacuated from the Radisson SAS, one of the hotels hit in the attacks, apparently due to a specific security alert. snip"

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20. update from Palestine Media Center

http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=1&id=1032
snip
An official Jordanian spokesman categorically denied on Thursday a report by the Israeli daily Haaretz that a number of Israelis staying at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces and escorted back to Israel by security personnel.

Israel's counter-terror headquarters on Wednesday recommended Israeli citizens not travel in Jordan, Haaretz said.

Jordan’s Deputy Prime Minister Marwan Muasher said that most of the victims were Jordanians.

However media reports that the wedding party, where most of the victims fell, was for a Palestinian family.
snip

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24. Names of victims released: The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan

http://www.mfa.gov.jo/pages.php?menu_id=827
three remain undentified

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63. 27 Palestinians Killed in Amman Bombings

http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=1&id=1034


27 Palestinians Killed in Amman Bombings
Silet al-Thaher Mourns 17 Relatives of Al-Akhras Clan

12/11/2005


Palestine Media Center – PMC

"snip
In an official letter to King Abdullah II, President Abbas expressed the Palestinian people and his solidarity with the Kingdom, extending his condolences to the families of those killed and wishing speed recovery for the injured.

“This is a sad day for us, for Jordan and all the peace-loving people worldwide,” premier Qurei said. “We condemn this attack vehemently,” AP quoted him as saying.

“Palestinians have tasted the blind violence that does not differentiate between people - children, women, wedding parties, ordinary people,” said Palestinian newspaper commentator Hani al-Masri.

“I expect now a significant change in the Palestinian political culture,” he said. “For sure, this attack will push Palestinians to reconsider this way of suicide bombings, and I think it would reduce support for attacks that kill people without any differentiation.”

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64. Jordan turns its back on Zarqawi

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1645459,00.html

snip
After one demonstration, two men were writing anti-Iraqi graffiti on a mobile wall provided for the purpose. "America good, Israel good, fuck Iraq," one told me. "I don't care if Israel occupies two-thirds of the Arab world and America occupies Iraq for ever. Let them go fight in their countries, I want Jordan safe."

Jordanians felt, as most Arabs did, that American aggression in Iraq was as unacceptable as Israeli aggression in Palestine. But now, in every demonstration since foreigners attacked their country, people chant anti-Iraqi slogans. Suddenly, on every street corner the motto has become "Jordan first". A poll this week found that 87% of those asked considered al-Qaida a terrorist organisation. Pictures of the baby-faced king in military fatigues have replaced the more neutral portraits of his majesty in a suit.

The bombs came as a shock to all Jordanians - not just the westernised middle class but poor taxi drivers too. In the short term, it seems, it has brought about a real change in attitude. Yet the question remains as to how long this defiance, this backlash against Zarqawi's ideology will continue. If he decides to attack again, will the young chant for their king or retreat in fear?

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65. Zarqawi 'defends Jordan attacks'

Zarqawi 'defends Jordan attacks'


An audio message purportedly from the head of al-Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, says the Jordan bombings were not meant to hit a Muslim wedding.

snip


At least 100,000 people marched through Amman on Friday in the latest mass show of anger at the suicide attacks.

snip


Before the attacks, Zarqawi appeared to enjoy a certain sympathy in some sections of Jordanian opinion, the BBC's Jim Muir says.

But the death of so many Jordanian civilians seems to have eroded that sympathy very sharply, our correspondent says, and this broadcast seems to be aimed at regaining that lost ground.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4450590.stm