Palestinians hit by sonic boom air raids

[Violet_Crumble]

Israel is deploying a terrifying new tactic against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip by letting loose deafening "sound bombs" that cause widespread fear, induce miscarriages and traumatise children.
The removal of Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip opened the way for the military to use air force jets to create dozens of sonic booms by breaking the sound barrier at low altitude, sending shockwaves across the territory, often at night. Palestinians liken the sound to an earthquake or huge bomb. They describe the effect as being hit by a wall of air that is painful on the ears, sometimes causing nosebleeds and "leaving you shaking inside".

The Palestinian health ministry says the sonic booms have led to miscarriages and heart problems. The United Nations has demanded an end to the tactic, saying it causes panic attacks in children. The shockwaves have also damaged buildings by cracking walls and smashing thousands of windows.

"I have never heard such a loud explosion. I thought it was right over the top of my building," said the owner, Tareq Dayyeh. "Sometimes you hear the rockets the Israelis fire but this was different. I felt like I was in the middle of a bomb. When I ran out the door I thought I might find the rest of the street was gone."

Over the past week, Israeli jets created 28 sonic booms by flying at high speed and low altitude over the Gaza Strip, sometimes as little as an hour apart through the night. During five days in late September, the air force caused 29 sonic booms.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1607450,00.html

[Englander]

1. Another day, another war crime- (collective punishment).

From the BBC;

'Medics condemn Gaza sonic booms

Doctors' groups have filed a petition at the Israeli Supreme Court seeking to halt air force jets from breaking the sound barrier over the Gaza Strip.

>snip

Israel evacuated its settlers and troops from Gaza earlier this year.

However, the Jewish state continues to control the territory's airspace, coastline and borders.

It has also continued to carry out air raids against what it says are militant targets.

The joint Israeli-Palestinian petition filed in the Supreme Court by the Gaza Community Mental Health Programme and Physicians for Human Rights-Israel says that according to international law, "the booms are collective punishment against the civilian population and thus illegal".

BBC News

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Yep...

n/t

[jody]

3. Looks like Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza was so he could use mass

retaliation against Palestinians without fear of harming Israeli citizens.

[bemildred]

4. He has always done that.

He is a pre-eminent exponent of the use of force as a solution for any and all political problems.

And he doesn't care a fig about Israeli citizens, anymore than Bush worries about the citizenry of the USA. He left Gaza because it was a very expensive bleeding wound that he could no longer afford. But he has not changed his methods at all, and I don't expect he ever will.
The jets fly over Beirut too.

[Englander]

17. It's a tried-&-tested tactic, apparently, the use of sonic booms.

From the archives;

'Wednesday, December 9, 1998

Israeli planes create sonic boom confusion over Lebanon

Israeli planes have staged mock air raids over Beirut and its southern outskirts.

The planes flew low over the city at high speed, creating sonic booms.

Lebanese security sources say the loud bangs gave rise to erroneous reports that the Israelis had carried out air raids just to the south of the capital and fired missiles into the hills around Na'imah.

The area houses a base of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command.

From the newsroom of the BBC World Service'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/231406.stm

[bemildred]

22. It's dick-waving, pure and simple.

Don't get me started.

[Scurrilous]

26. The sonic booms are harming Israelis also....

Living with supersonic booms

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3161359,00.html

<snip>

"The supersonic booms created by IAF jets as part of the efforts to deter terror groups in Gaza, in light of the recent Qassam onslaughts, have taken their toll on Israeli communities in the area."

<snip>

"All day long there are booms. It is most frightening during the night; you have to sleep really well not to wake up from them," Kibbutz Nirim Secretary Horatio Winitzky says.

“The children are scared because they don’t understand, but the adults are also afraid,” Winitzky adds. “We are trying to continue with the daily routine, but it is very unpleasant to live like this.”

Aryeh Itzik, a resident of nearby kibbutz Nir-Oz, which is situated along the border with Gaza south of the Kissufim crossing, told Ynet that, “Today (Saturday) the supersonic booms began at 7 a.m.; they were our wakeup call. The blasts occur every 20 minutes to an hour, and it sounds as though a bomb is falling right into the house.”

[Wordie]

5. Human rights groups are suing Israel over this practice.

(Note: edited for grammar.)

There is an article about this in Haaretz, that says that there are human rights groups who are suing over the practice.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/641005.html
<snip>
Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups yesterday petitioned the High Court of Justice to compel the Israeli air force to stop causing sonic booms over Gaza, citing psychological damage and calling the practice "collective punishment."

Physicians for Human Rights-Israel and the Gaza Community Mental Health Program petitioned the High Court to stop the supersonic flights.



This clearly *is* collective punishment, imo.

One other thing...if you follow the link that I've posted here, at the bottom of the article you'll see "Talk Back" which allows readers to respond to the articles. For some reason, I am unable to get into the text of the responses, although I can see the title lines. I would so much like to know what the Israeli responders have to say about this topic. Anybody?

[pelsar]

6. its seems to work.....

it may be collective punishment.....they may be loud and anoying and scary...but they do not kill people, blow up building, cause people to wait in line....(collective punishment is inevitable when combatents hide behind civilians and pretend to be them...or use civilians to pass on messages and equipment.)

what the sonic booms are doing is keeping a lot of tension in gaza...a lot of pressure on the hamas which after several gun battles in the streets are now having some trouble launching missles in to israel (if you recall that was their response to israel leaving gaza)...and afterwards....then the sonic booms started and some artillary....and there is now very few missles being launched

considering they are talking about more and more retailiation (they always talk about "retailiation"....like when israel left gaza...they retailiated) but are not suceeding as they have in the past it appears something the IDF is doing is working.....

and since israel uses multiple levels to keep out suicide bombers as much as possible, this is simply part of it.

the key here is that it doesnt kill, annoying and scary...an interviewer on TV last night explained how its affective short term (its accepted that the military does not have a long term solution)

got a great idea...the palestenians should start concentrating on building a society in gaza and stop with the mortors and missles which since we left hasnt stopped....i know its a novel approach, maybe israel might react nicely to it?....we did leave gaza..time to take advantage of it...pass it on.

[Wordie]

7. Israel says Abbas is not reducing violence, but you say violence is down.

What's that about?

[pelsar]

9. because the IDF is....

abbas may not be stopping the attacks.....its the IDF that is....multiple arrests, raids etc.

when there is info of an attack being planned, its not the PA that stops it...its the IDF doing the PAs job

[Wordie]

11. Or, is Israel intent on undermining Abbas' attempts?

<snip>
“We are not partner to any agreement between various terror groups and the Palestinian Authority,” said Raanan Gissin, a spokesman for the Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/story.php?sid=20051101001006819

This statement was made in response to questions about why Israel was not honoring an attempt at a ceasefire.

[pelsar]

12. maybe....

i really dont trust politicians...seems lying is prereq....

[Wordie]

14. Well, here's a small something showing Abbas IS taking action...

<snip>
Palestinian police disperse Islamic Jihad protest in Ramallah
By Shmuel Rosner, Haaretz Correspondent and The Associated Press

Palestinian police fired in the air Saturday to disperse about 60 Islamic Jihad activists who gathered outside Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' offices to protest the arrest of four of the militant group's members earlier this week, police said.

No casualties were immediately reported, they said. Abbas was not in his compound at the time.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/638994.html

[pelsar]

15. he is......

doing "some things"..and hes also in a horrendous position having inherited what arafat created which was something like 17 different "security organizations" all with various ideologies (which is absurd).

and i can sympatheise with him...however...in terms of making a working society who ever runs palestine has to somehow take control from the gangbangers.

Look at it from my point of view: the second they have a state, all the world will then forget about their problems as it will be considered "internal" (iran, n.korea, etc). If they have a state and it fails, where one or all of the jihadnikim take over, what do i have as a neighbor?

a failed state, with a history and ideology that involves targeting my kids and me.....is that reasonable?...what will israels choices be then?

Now with all the intl involved, it is the only time to pressure the PA to create and stabilize a society BEFORE they have a state...if not, though i understand few really care, the palestenain citizens and israelis will have a lot more bloodshed.

[Andromeda]

99. I think Israelis are just intent on trying....

to stay alive. I'd be upset too if rockets were landing on my roof or if my children were blown up in a bus on the way to school.

Abbas doesn't really need to be undermined by Israel because he's doing a good job of that all by himself.

Let me know when the Palestinian groups actually honor a ceasefire. They seem to have a propensity to fire a few rockets in Israel's direction AFTER an agreement has been made.

[Englander]

16. In other words - it's not illegal/collective punishment/vile &tc

when Israel does it. You're wrong, this form of collective punishment
*does* destroy property & cause injury, as the incidents of the sonic
booms are in the dozens, not isolated incidents.

'Over the past week, Israeli jets created 28 sonic booms by flying at high speed and low altitude over the Gaza Strip, sometimes as little as an hour apart through the night. During five days in late September, the air force caused 29 sonic booms.'

Also, repeat after me;

*I-must-not-hijack-threads*
*I-must-not-hijack-threads*
*I-must-not-hijack-threads*

:eyes:

[pelsar]

19. i never said it wasnt collective punishment...

it is...if the jihadnikim hide behind civilians there is little choice..

i just dont apologies for it..i dont like it...yet i've never heard of realistic alternatives....

[Violet_Crumble]

30. It IS collective punishment...

...and there's no justification for collective punishment. As long as they don't kill people?? It's just fine to traumatise young children and make everyone's life a misery, as long as it doesn't kill them? That's disgusting...

[Colorado Blue]

43. What do you think about the rockets landing on people's houses,

and the suicide attack, and the shootings - all of which have occurred since the Gaza withdrawal?

COME ON.

[Englander]

95. Any thoughts on the actual subject of the thread?

Y'know, the collective punishment, the use of 'sonic booms'
to deliberately cause fear among the civilian population?

~Fly this thread to Cuba!!~

[Andromeda]

100. I'm really getting tired of your incessant...

scolding and attempt to control the content of other people's posts. As far as I can see nobody has really been straying from the subject---it's just that they're straying from what YOU want them to say.

[Englander]

101. No-one's forcing you to read my opinions -

if you find them objectionable, use this;



et, voila! They disappear!

[Andromeda]

102. Sorry, but I don't use that little guy.

I want to see EVERYTHING, even if I don't agree with it.

[Jim Sagle]

56. Chickenshit bullshit.

[Jim Sagle]

54. But when a Palestinian gets inconvenienced in ANY way, it's an atrocity.

Didn't you get the memo?

[Andromeda]

103. It's funny how that works...

:freak:

[Wordie]

13. A request: could someone follow my Haaretz link to see what Israelis say

about this issue? In my previous post I gave the link, and mentioned that at the bottom of the follow-up article that I posted, there is a section called "Talk Back" where Israeli posters can respond with their thoughts about the issue.

I couldn't get in there (my computer is sometimes goofy). Is anyone else able to? Could you post some of the responses here? I think it might be interesting for us in the U.S. to hear what actual Israelis themselves have to say, not just their government. (They may very much agree with their government's actions, judging from the titles of the posts, but nonetheless, it would be interesting to know how they view it.)

Here's that link again:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/641005.html

[Englander]

18. Is it related to pop-up windows?

When you clink on the link, a small window pops-up, maybe you've got
that feature blocked?

The reponses are not exclusively from Israel, they're from Europe,
Canada, US, &tc. Personally, I think you're better off not knowing
what is said, the 1st response I read was v. Rumsfeldesque, suggesting
that the water supply to Gaza should be shut off!! I don't know
how representative the views expressed are, but this one was hopeful;

--Yes, of course, they are a collective punishment made by the conquer to the colonized. I feel ashame of the israeli people who write so unhappy letters dealing with a terrible tragedy that is the war every population--palestinian and israeli--are feeling. But thinking twice I discovered that they are the letters of impotent people who suffered also the daily manipulation of their own righ goberment. All this hatred will come back over us, like happened with the day when israel listen the sonic booms coming from Gaza and disturbed their own dreams.

War is a tragedy that need to be finished. The only solution is peace

Ana Wapner, Beer Sheva--

[Wordie]

25. That last paragraph says it all. (And thanks for copying that.) n/t

[Colorado Blue]

49. Please see my post #47. It's from the feedback section.

Others are upset about the booms. They don't want to hurt or alienate the Palestinian people. Still others think they're ineffective at stopping terror, that making a lot of noise will only make people mad - the opposite of a way to improve communications. Others think there's no choice but to try and cool down the extremists, who are living in the midst of the general population:

"Not that simple...the palestinians are probably going to vote significantly for Hamas and Jihad so, its not a matter of stoping the rockets but more important to change an atitude that many Palestinians have. Also, since terrorists, martyrs as they call themselves, hide in back of children and women it is very difficult to weed them out.

What would you prefer instead of sonic booms? Bombing civilian population? I would prefer that the booms work and massive bombings will not be necessary."

Others ask, what about the people in the nearby communities in Israel, who are afraid to sleep because of rocket attacks?

Obviously the Israeli public, judging from the feedback forum, is concerned but doesn't know what to do, given the fact that the militias can't easily be separated from the people. And, there is anger because the withdrawal from Gaza resulted in chaos within Gaza, explosions, burnings, and rocket attacks, and fear that relaxing restrictions would result in the importation of deadlier weapons.

The Israelis are PEOPLE, they are vulnerable too, and frightened and scarred from the violence of the last several years. This should be remembered.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

10. old story....

tell the hamasnik to:

come out and play with uniforms and stop hiding behind the skirts of their mommies....

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

21. they hate us...

and we dont hate them....thats the difference.

we've fought at least two wars where the goal was our total annihilation....and we still dont hate

they've commited more than enough atrocities and we still dont hate them, we still produce plays and movies about their lives and ours.....museum exhibits about life under the occupation..

thats the difference....they may come to our schools and shoot up out kids.....knock on our doors and kill those that answer it....be we still dont hate them

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. You SAY you don't hate them

but your actions speak a different reality.

Shall we tally up the numbers murdered?

YOu think because you "say" you don't hate them, you're morally superior? What a joke!

[pelsar]

24. killing does not mean we hate...

sure tally up the numbers...we've killed a lot more egyptians, syrians jordanians, iraqis, palestenans than israelis have been killed.

because if we didnt....israel wouldnt exist....yet Egypt, Syria, Jordan and soon Palestine all exist.

are we morally superior?...good question....how do we measure that?...what would your 'yardstick be?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

27. I dunno...

number of cigarette butt-shaped burn scars per capita?

[newyorican]

28. Don't do that...

I almost honked beverage all over my keyboard...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

35. Sorry about that New Yorican...

Whenever I think of the "compassionate" IDF I picture the cigarette burn scars all over the back of my BIL's neck... It's immoral to litter and those soldiers have to put their butts out somewhere in the back of the truck, where the "shebab" are sitting handcuffed, heads down...

This BIL has a PhD in Engineering, is a political moderate and is gainfully employed, btw.

Just one of a million little "momentos" of the benign Israeli occupation...

[pelsar]

29. couldnt think of anything....

could you...like it was mentioned...for those arabs who have choices...the palestenian society or israel....they've chosen israel.

nor do they want to trade land and become part of palestine.....hate to break it to you..but israel is the preferred country....must be that moral superiority that the hamas, islamic jihad, force 17, tanzim etc seem to show the local population.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. The choice isn't: what's "better" Israel or Palestine

but, do you want to leave your land to live on a new land?

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Easy answer...

'We' are not morally superior. Neither society is morally superior to the other....

And don't try and tell me that Israelis don't hate. There's some Israelis that do as well as Palestinians that do, then there's others from both societies that don't...

[pelsar]

32. just replying to a comment....

And we wonder why the Palestinians hate their guts.


posted by progressive muslim.....

[pelsar]

34. if neither society is morally superiour....

then we can use the very same standard to judge each .......correct?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

36. Talking about emotions like "hate" is absurd...

How Isarelis "feel" about Palestinians doesn't really matter, because enough people don't feel outraged about what's going on to demand an end to an immoral, illegal and murderous occupation.

You can't use the same yardstick to measure victims and oppressors, occupiers and occupied, military vs. civilian population, as much as Israelis like ot try to present a level playing field.

It's an asymmetric conflict.

[Jim Sagle]

57. Self-defense isn't hate. Get a fuckin' clue.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

131. Murdering civilians ain't self-defence. Get a fuckin' clue.

[Jim Sagle]

134. Sonic booms aren't murder. Get a fuckin' clue.

[Andromeda]

104. Do you hate Israelis?

Silly question.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

130. Why would that be a silly question?

I'm an American.

I hate what my tax dollars are doing.

There have been times when I've hated individual Israelis. When I stood on my MIL's roof in Khan Yunis and looked down as the Israeli Mukhabarat shot a boy in the back and dumped his body in the back of their truck like a sack of garbage I hated those men....

I've hated the soldiers who have attempted to humiliate my husband in front of his wife and children...

Do I "hate" Israel as a nation? I think it's absurd to apply the emotions of an individual to a nation as though it would matter one way or the other.

I do get angry at what Israel DOES, that's for sure!

[barb162]

37. Mayo Clinic Causes of Miscarriage

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/miscarriage/PR00097
Causes of miscarriage
No activities of daily living, even in a very active lifestyle, can provoke a miscarriage. Exercising, having sex, working or lifting heavy objects doesn't lead to a miscarriage. Nausea and vomiting in early pregnancy, even if it's severe, won't cause a miscarriage. And there's no evidence that a fall, a blow or a sudden fright can cause a miscarriage. Your fetus won't be harmed by an injury unless the injury is serious enough to threaten your own life.

Most of the time, the cause of a miscarriage can be traced to a genetic abnormality. In almost every case, miscarriage is caused by some problem in the developing embryo. It's very rare that a health problem with the mother is the underlying cause.

Genetic causes
About half of early pregnancy losses result from problems with the genes or chromosomes of the fetus. Typically, such problems aren't inherited from the baby's parents. Rather, they're the result of errors that occur by chance as the embryo divides and grows. When a miscarriage results from a genetic defect, there never was a chance for a normal baby to develop.

Environmental causes
These causes relate to the mother's health and physical condition. Miscarriage from these causes usually occurs later in pregnancy — even into the second trimester. They include:

Severe high blood pressure
Uncontrolled diabetes
Problems with your immune system (autoimmune diseases)
Tendency toward blood clots (thrombophilia)
Problems with your uterus or cervix (cervical incompetence)
Some of these causes are also linked to stillbirth — the death of a baby late in pregnancy.

snip

---------------------

Sonic boom? Noise pollution? Anyone have any medical sites verifying these claims about sonic boom?

[Coastie for Truth]

38. Was Done - And Ignored

at which referenced http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi>, the NIH Pub Med Web Site and Search Engine -- negative results.

Lesson learned: Progressives Can Be Just Like Conservatives, and When It Suits Their Agenda -- They Will Find "Intelligent Design" type Junk Science.

[barb162]

42. I remember

I'll go with the Mayo Clinic, NIH....

[Wordie]

48. You're wrong. A simple google search turns up lots of medical studies.

Your search was probably too specific. Did you search on "sonic boom"? It's unlikely that anyone in the U.S. has ever studied such a thing, so try "miscarriage cause environment stress".

Here is just one:
From the March of Dimes site, under their "Quick Reference Fact Sheet: Stress and Pregnancy" http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/681_1158.asp

<snip, and note that "preterm labor"=miscarriage, if too early for viability>
A number of studies have suggested that very high levels of stress may increase the risk of preterm labor and low birthweight. A 1999 study at the University of California Los Angeles School of Medicine found that women who reported high levels of stress at 18 to 20 weeks of pregnancy were more likely to have high levels of a hormone called corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH) in their blood. This and other studies have found a potential link between high levels of CRH and preterm labor.

CRH, which is produced by the brain and the placenta, is closely tied to labor. It prompts the body to release chemicals called prostaglandins, which trigger uterine contractions. CRH also is the first hormone our brains secrete when we are under stress. Researchers continue to explore the possibility that women who experience high levels of stress early in pregnancy have elevated levels of CRH that set their placental clock for early delivery.

Another recent study suggests that the timing of stress during pregnancy may influence pregnancy outcomes.

Researchers at the University of California at Irvine found that the earlier in pregnancy a woman experienced a very stressful event (in this study an earthquake), the earlier she was likely to deliver. The researchers speculate that women become less sensitive to stress as pregnancy progresses, possibly helping protect the baby from adverse effects of stress.

(Keep in mind that the studies quoted above were dealing with levels of stress that surely did not even come close to the sort of stress that someone living in a war zone would experience.)

And here's another, from the U of Maryland Medical Center:
http://www.umm.edu/pregnancy/stayhealthy/articles/miscarriage.html
<snip>
Early Miscarriage
Other possible causes. Chronic illnesses, exposure to environmental toxins (such as certain metals), and STRESS (emphsis mine).

...and here's yet another reference, this time on the symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (which I am quite sure MANY in the ME suffer from). This search was on "noise PTSD":
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/29064-3.asp
<snip>
Post-traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)
Post-traumatic Stress Disorder Symptoms

No one knows who will develop long-term effects. Seek medical care if you suspect you or someone you know has aftereffects that just aren’t going away a few weeks after a traumatic event. These are the behaviors to watch for in loved ones, coworkers, friends, and family.

The main symptoms of PTSD are flashbacks, emotional detachment, and jumpiness.
* Jumpiness: Any sudden noise might startle you, but for someone with PTSD that noise would make them practically "jump out of their skin” (known as hyperactive startle reflex). These people might overreact to small things and have difficulty concentrating, which would affect their job performance. They may always be looking around as if searching their environment for danger (this is hypervigilance). Trouble falling asleep or staying asleep in this high state of arousal is also a common consequence.
________________________________________________________________
So, we have two references clearly stating that abnormal levels of stress are a risk factor for miscarriages, and a third reference stating that for those already traumatized, even normal-level sounds can be a trigger for stress symptoms.

Is it not very clear from these references (and I could find LOTS more), that frequent and loud sonic booms, in a population already suffering from the effects of war, are not an unreasonable cause to consider to explain a higher-than-normal rate of miscarriages?

[Coastie for Truth]

50. OH COME ON

SUPPORTING PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES CAUSES MISCARRIAGES.

MY WIFE HAD A MISCARRIAGE WITHIN 6 HOURS AFTER ATTENDING A GEORGE McGOVERN RALLY

Maybe just living in Gaza - or Israel - or France - or NYC - or New Orleans or Houston per se is stressful and can cause miscarriages.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wordie]

60. BBC News: Stress 'linked to miscarriages' (Want more?)

Noise as a stressor is specifically mentioned.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4002539.stm
<snip>
In the initial phase of the research, scientists found that when pregnant mice were deliberately stressed by factors such as LOUD NOISE LEVELS (emphasis mine), it created an imbalance in hormone levels.

This leads to the immune system more hostile to the foetus, leading to the placenta coming under attack.

The foetus is rejected because its blood supply cannot be sustained.

The researchers found stress hormones such as cortisol are raised in the bloodstream, suppressing the production of progesterone - a hormone which is crucial to the maintenance of a healthy pregnancy.
_____________________________________________________________________
Did your previous post indicate that you had put me on ignore? I can see why! LOL.

[barb162]

64. mice... "initial phase" of study.... Oh, Come on!

When they get done with the full study in 5 or 10 years we can revisit the subject

[Wordie]

67. The 2nd half of study was on humans. Findings were the same.

<snip>
It was found that the 55 women who miscarried were more likely to have reported stress than women whose pregnancies continued.

The 55 were also more likely to have had lower progesterone and PIBF levels.

Dr Arck said: "We can clearly say that stress has a major impact on pregnancy maintenance."

[barb162]

70. From the article : "suggesting" "could" "more work needed" etc

There's nothing at all definitive here.


" snip
Ruth Bender-Atik, National Director of the UK's Miscarriage Association, said: "This study is suggesting that stress could be linked to miscarriage, rather than saying it directly causes it."

She said much more work needed to be carried out before the link could be confirmed, and researchers would have to eliminate potential risk factors linked to stress, such as high coffee or cigarette consumption
snip"

[Wordie]

75. can clearly say that stress has a major impact on pregnancy maintenance."

<snip>
Dr Arck said: "We can clearly say that stress has a major impact on pregnancy maintenance."

There's one doctor who is more cautious than the others. Still, at minimum, this shows that the condescending attitude you took toward the claim of increased miscarriages was not warranted. Because if there is a good CHANCE of increased miscarriages, then the sonic booms are even more inhuman.

The Pals ARE human, you know.

[barb162]

77. "interesting and possibly very important"

From the article:The Miscarriage Association called the University of Berlin study "interesting and possibly very important".

This is nothing definitive. These people are not breaking out in a sweat over the findings, except for the guy who did the study, Arck.

[barb162]

81. Some of the articles trying to connect stress keep using guarded

language, like "suggested" and 'could" etc. It's all phrased in conditional and guarded language . There really is not a definitive study or studies on this.

BTW, your comment "The Pals ARE human, you know": now that's a condescending attitude. The Israelis are human too. We all are and no one ever suggested otherwise of whom I am aware.

[Wordie]

83. LOL...They are SCIENTISTS! Scientists always talk like that!

Scientists, researchers, they quite typically will qualify the results of studies, just like these researchers did. Almost nothing is considered absolutely definitive. It's the nature of their work. But that doesn't mean we should discount their findings as worthless. Again, in the context of this thread, it seems to me that just the research pointing to a strong likelihood that stress could cause miscarriages, ought to be enough for the sonic booms to stop. It is cruel.

And, you quoted me out of context. I said to use sonic booms was inhuman, and that the Pals were human. That's different than how you make what I said sound. I was also responding to some of the other posts that discounted the Palestinian suffering.

But I must say, to laugh at the claims of miscarriage does make it seem you and Coastie don't see them as fully human.

[barb162]

90. You know, the scientific method and all that it implies

is there for a reason. Will these be reproduceable studies you mentioned? You and I don't know until they are reproduced. Are the hypotheses correct? It won't be known for years. I am not interested in couldas and wouldas in science. And that's all that what you were supplying. Again, Wild claims about x causing y with not one single scientific study to back it up does not fly.

This is getting way more than repetitive, don't you think? And your last comment is worse than ridiculous. End of discussion.

[Wordie]

145. Want scientific replication? "How Stress Causes Miscarriage" (Tufts Univ)

as quoted by WebMD. (And note that you seem not to understand the idea of generalizability, the point being that you can take the results of one study, and apply them to a similar circumstance, and expect the same result, if the original study was done well.)

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/66/79698.htm
<snip>
How Stress Causes Miscarriage

Hormonal Effects on Certain Cells May Trigger Chain Reaction to End Pregnancy
By Sid Kirchheimer
WebMD Medical News Reviewed By Brunilda Nazario, MD
on Thursday, June 05, 2003

June 5, 2003 -- Stress has long been suspected as a possible cause of miscarriage, with several studies indicating an increased risk among women reporting high levels of emotional or physical turmoil in their early months of pregnancy or just before conception. But while a relationship has been noted, researchers didn't know exactly how a woman's stress could cause miscarriage.

In what may prove to be a breakthrough finding, a team of scientists from Tufts University and Greece have identified a suspected chain reaction detailing exactly how stress hormones and other chemicals wreak havoc on the uterus and fetus. Their report, in the June issue of Endocrinology, may help explain why women miscarry for no obvious medical reasons and why some women have repeated miscarriages. And it could lead to measures to prevent miscarriage -- medically known as "spontaneous abortion."

Researchers have long known that during times of stress, the brain releases several hormones -- including one called corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH). In past research, women who deliver prematurely or have low-birth-weight babies were often found to have high levels of CRH in their bloodstream, and other studies show a greater risk of miscarriage in women reporting stress. CRH is a hormone the brain secretes in reaction to physical or emotional stress, and it is also produced in the placenta and the uterus of a pregnant woman to trigger uterine contractions during delivery.

But this new research suggests that CRH and other stress hormones may also be released elsewhere in the body, where it specifically targets localized mast cells -- those best known for causing allergic reactions. Mast cells are abundant in the uterus. During stress, the local release of CRH causes these mast cells to secrete substances that can cause miscarriages.
But more immediately, he says his finding offers more proof of the hazards of emotional stress on pregnancy. "We now know the effects of stress (on the fetus) are very real and produce a specific physiologic reaction in the uterus," he tells WebMD. "So you really need to reduce it whatever way you can."

So, is this enough? And I surely am NOT saying that the Pals are the only ones who have suffered in this conflict. But the OP was about this ONE issue: the sonic booms over Gaza. I say the Israelis, given the information about miscarriages, should stop. What say you?

[barb162]

63. And not living in a war zone, women have miscarriages too

[barb162]

59. We're talking miscarriage, not early delivery. They weren't even

conclusive in their remarks. They "suggest" x or y or z could cause early delivery. Stress? Is it stress to listen to Hamas shoot off guns and screaming outside your window. Maybe a study should be done on that! Do you think there might be evidence Hamas types were playing with their guns a lot more than normal the last few weeks and that caused the miscarriages versus the sonic booms. If you don't get along with your mother or mother-in-law, that can be REAL stress. Maybe a study should be done on that too. Look, I think you're really, really reaching. My response could be Hamas rockets and suicide bombings cause Israeli women to miscarry. Then I will say, look they must be under stress with this. But I would never say that without actual evidence. If you are going to talk about a war area, everyone is under stress for pete's sake. This is going absolutely nowhere because I think that piecing together a patchwork of unrelated "suggested" type data and going through mental hoops on it proves nothing.

[Wordie]

78. OP was about Palestinian miscarriages, you denied a link, NOW you say that

that it may happen to Israeli women too, because of Hamas firing rockets. So, which is it?

AND, I don't think I would disagree that those rockets might cause a stress reaction in an Israeli woman. I think BOTH sides need to change. And that because Israel has more equipment, more technological advantages, and kills more people, that the ball is in ISRAEL's court.

[barb162]

91. Which is it? Who the hell knows. There are no conclusive studies

of any kind, which is what I keep repeating. You can't make a link; there is no link. And how do you know there isn't someone else out there right now who isn't finding three more important factors about miscarriage that will be proven ten years from now? That's why I keep saying this is a wild claim. I'll stick with Mayo Clinic, NIH, etc.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wordie]

41. Your article may show that U.S. doctors are unfamiliar with the problem,

and that it would be so rare in the U.S. that the study's doctors did not even considered it as a potential factor. What this article is truly saying is that "activities of daily living" and non-serious accidents should not be cause for concern for pregnant women. It does not even deal with such cruel and unusual circumstances as the sonci booms. Unless you can find information that Mayo considered and measured the effects of sonic booms on pregnant women, their article does not apply, imho.

[barb162]

44. check post 40

What do you make of the fact the Palestinian Health Ministry hasn't written anything up on the miscarriage claim. Maybe they will tomorrow, I don't know. Right now, I will go with hard science because I simply don't believe it without proof. It's just wild charges; no scienticic evidence, no proof at all to back it up. The story proves nothing. The other thing... in the article the one hospital person mentioned an increase. I bet you can find an increase in miscarriages in periods of time when there were no sonic booms. Simple statistical anomalies.

[Coastie for Truth]

46. Go to Lexis.com (it is subscription, password protected)

or to WestLaw.com (similarly, subscription, password protected) and search for TORT CLAIMS against the US for any kind of sonic boom damage you want.

We have the most creative and litigious TORT LAWYERS -- and DOD is a big target.

In fact, the results would be biased as heck - because TORT LAWYERS will allege anything to get into court, and a good TORT LAWYER would file suit if there was a sonic boom and there was a miscarriage -- even if there was no causal connection. That's why they are TORT LAWYERS.

[barb162]

51. Yeah, the evidence just doesn't exist

It's a wild claim with no scientific evidence, no studies, no data, etc. to back up the claim

[Coastie for Truth]

52. If there had been any claims at all - even frivolous --

they would have been reported in either Westlaw.com or lexis.com. I think two of the regulars probably have subscription access.

[Wordie]

62. The BBC News article (above) specifically mentions NOISE as a stressor

that can lead to miscarriage.

[barb162]

66. mice, little white ones with red beady eyes? Come on, quit it

Are you going to take a pill before human studies have been done because the initial test on mice showed it might be promising? Are you going to completely trust an initial phase of one study with those white mice with the beady red eyes.

[Wordie]

69. Second half was completed. Findings the same. Please read the article

I posted before replying with something that does not represent what the study said.

[barb162]

72. see post 70. I'm telling you, stick with the mother-in-law angle

You'll have way more to work with, especially if the old battleaxe lives with the poor pregnant woman.
Really:


S-T-R-E-S-S

[barb162]

40. Here's one more thing from State of Palestine Ministry of Health

http://www.moh.gov.ps/index.asp?deptid=8&pranchid=61&action=details&serial=622

Palestinian children suffer from Israeli sonic bombs


Date:10/06/2005
snip
"Although the raids cause no physical injuries, they have broken hundreds of windows and made cracks in the wall of old buildings, he said.

In school, psychologist says some children can not concentrate, listening nervously, anxious whether another booms is in the offing.

snip
----------------
The Ministry didn't have anything on this miscarriage claim (malarkey as far as I am concerned) but the fact they took the time to write about the kids indicates something. NB: the line about the raids causing "no physical injuries"

I believe the sonic booms are in fact scaring the little kids, the really little kids. For that reason, I wish they'd stop doing the sonic boom routine. The little kids didn't do anything to anybody. Having said that, rocket fire into Israel might be scaring Israeli little kids too. And I wish that would stop too.

nuff said.

[Colorado Blue]

45. I really, really wish people would stop this OTT rumor-mongering.

It's immoral in and of itself. It's doing NOTHING to stop the conflict, in fact it's feeding it.

The US would probably fly a supersonic plane but it wouldn't be empty and it wouldn't be making mere noise. Nor would the artillery pieces be aimed at empty fields.

The PA is afraid to control - let alone disarm the militants - for fear of civil war. These are Abbas' words. I wonder what our erudite proponents of human rights think the Israelis should do? Sit and wait quietly for more rockets, shootings and suicide attacks? Or are human rights concerns only important when applied to Palestinians?

Or maybe, since the withdrawal from Gaza has been such a success, bringing "peace" as we can see from the casualty reports, withdrawal from MORE territory would make more peace?

[Englander]

97. There was nothing ott, or in-accurate in that MoH release -

'Psychological warfare' is an accurate description of these practices,
the intent is to scare the general populace, the intent is to mimic
the sounds, & some of the damage of an actual bomb.
I think it's immoral to deny that this is collective punishment, or
to claim that there's no choice, that it's this or 'real' bombs.

Any thoughts on the effectiveness, or morality of using collective
punishment?

[Englander]

98. And *why* would the idf be 'scaring little kids'?

Why would they want to do that?

Said an anonymous spokesbot;

'A senior Israeli army intelligence source, who the military would not permit to be named, said the tactic is intended to break civilian support for armed Palestinian groups. "We are trying to send a message in a way that doesn't harm people. We want to encourage the Palestinian public to do something about the terror situation," he said. "What are the alternatives? We are not like the terrorists who shoot civilians. We are cautious. We make sure nobody is really hurt."

[Colorado Blue]

47. Here's a question, from an Israeli:

"Please clarify for me what means of self defense is considered acceptable. I live in a city where bus bombs were common until the fence was built, yet this was condemned. My friend in Sderot deals with the daily threat of rockets, yet all responses to rocket fire are condemned. Non-lethal means are condemned as vociferously as lethal ones. BTW... my town was settled in the 1860s, so please don`t lecture me about being an `occupier`."

***

It's from the feedback section on the Ha'aretz article quoted in this thread.

Will somebody please answer?

[Jim Sagle]

58. Probably not.

[barb162]

61. Yeah the silence is deafening

I just had to "say" that

[Wordie]

65. I showed that noise CAN cause miscarriages, you guys change the subject.

Why?

[barb162]

68. Because you din't show anything, you proved nada

And you are not allowed to talk about those little white mice. I'd rather talk about mean, controlling, bossy mothers-in-law living in the same house with the pregnant woman. As in do you know how to spell

S-T-R-E-S-S

[Wordie]

71. LOL Read the article! I did prove my point.

[barb162]

73. Are you talking about the BBC article or which one

[Wordie]

76. news.bbc.co.uk/1 /hi/health /4002539.stm (I added spaces so it would post)

[barb162]

79. see post 77. Opinion is being stated from a few different parties

[Wordie]

80. Both you an Coastie were claiming there were NO studies, a while ago

No studies on this issue, and no data at all to back up the claim. Now, when you see there ARE data, you go on to a different complaint. The data isn't good enough for you (I assure you if this was a study to be discounted and not taken seriously, it would not have been published.)

Just to remind you what you said:
<snip>
barb162
Response to Reply #46
51. Yeah, the evidence just doesn't exist
It's a wild claim with no scientific evidence, no studies, no data, etc. to back up the claim

Coastie for Truth Donating Member
Response to Reply #51
52. If there had been any claims at all - even frivolous --
they would have been reported in either Westlaw.com or lexis.com. I think two of the regulars probably have subscription access.

And both of you were wrong to discount how serious the sonic booms are. Have you ever tried to put yourself in the position of one of those Gaza Palestinians? Could you imagine what it would be like to have "dozens" of sonic booms going off every night?

[Coastie for Truth]

82. I still say - no claims - no heads on studies of actual miscarriages

beyond "stress" -- you tort sharks really like "stress" - kinda like "whiplash."

You were so kind as to ask:

Could you imagine what it would be like to have "dozens" of sonic booms going off every night?

1. I lived in Newport News VA for several months -- that's where every jet jockey in the Navy, Air Force, and Marines goes super sonic as a macho thing.

I also used to spend about a week a month with my Mom's family in Miramar CA - where the Navy and Marine jet jockeys do their macho thing - including sonic booms for the locals.

2. I live directly under the approach for a major trans-oceanic airport, and directly under the the take off for a major domestic airport -- and both airports are major FedEx and UPS and DHL/Airborne and BTX terminals -- as well major Pacific Rim airports. The friggin planes come over my condo from before sunrise to after sunset -- plus the executive jets of every dot.com (and Oracle and Intel and HP). I monitor them on my scanner as they shake my patio door - sometimes scare the cat -- although she's used to it.

BTW COUNSELLOR, if there had been any tort claims for sonic boom caused miscarriages - your brothers would have been on top of the claims.

[Wordie]

85. Sheesh!!! But you aren't expecting BOMBS! It's not the same! You aren't

living in a war zone!!! You can't compare the two. Again, imagine what that's like. To be woken from sleep, several times each night, never knowing for sure if it's a sonic boom, or a bomb. And if it's a bomb, is your mother still alive, your brother, your child? Think again, Coastie. Does your child cry everytime he or she is woken from sleep?

In Lebanon, in the Civil war, the children could tell what kind of rockets they were, flying overhead, they knew the names and could identify them by the sound. Think of what it must be like to be 7 years old, and every night you are awoken several times from your sleep. And your parents are terrified. What does that do to a child?

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wordie]

128. I'll repeat: BOTH sides need to change. Don't try to misrepresent my words

[Wordie]

129. DU rules: you are supposed to take this up in original thread, not here.

Not only that, but you are quoting me out of context.

[barb162]

84. We crossed posts and I just wrote this up above

"Some of the articles trying to connect stress keep using guarded
language, like "suggested" and 'could" etc. It's all phrased in conditional and guarded language. There really is not a definitive study or studies on this."

The previous is a partial post. You did not prove the point because there really is no data. Trying to skew the subject over to a false or related subject, stress, which can be caused by any multitude of factors and then making long long chain arguments going back to sonic boom doesn't prove anything. There is no scientific evidence, no hard data specifically connecting miscarriage with sonic boom. That's really all there is to it. Also, you are incorrect about the comment of changing the complaint; that was a side issue.

Miscarriage being supposedly caused by sonic booms has no scientific validity, not one study to back it up. It is in fact a wild claim and that's why I don't buy it.

As to your last paragraph... And can you imagine what it is like to be an Israeli being attacked by rockets and suicide bombers? I also noticed you didn't respond to my comments about "noisy" Hamas (or other militant) guns outside one's window possibly causing stress.

Look, if you want to "talk" about only one thing and completely ignore another which is equally valid, you should probably be talking to someone else, because I think there are two valid sides to this issue.

[Wordie]

86. You are choosing to ignore previous statements. Are you trying to start a

flame war? To just keep up with these comments until I respond out of annoyance and then get a post deleted? Read the whole thread. The things that you've just claimed in this post to me are not true.

I am tired of this. But I bet if you look, you can find some studies about the effects of the stress of war on miscarriage rates. And, since the BBC study SPECIFICALLY talked about sound stress, as far as I can see you just don't want to acknowledge the points that the article made, and nothing I say will make a difference. To insist that there be a study specifically addressing a link between sonic booms and miscarriage, while discounting the one linking sound stress and miscarriage is absurd, imho.

I did respond to your comment about Hamas. I stated that there are two sides, and both need to change. I believe that in order for your side to change will require a more sympathetic attitude toward the plight of the Palestinians, so that's why I said what I did.

Anyone reading this thread can very clearly see the truth about what has been said or not said. There have been only a couple of deleted posts (I don't know whose), and everyone has been for the most part polite. So, let other readers make the decision.

I'm outta here.

[barb162]

93. I am not ignoring anything. This is getting repetitive and even my

stating that is repetitive. It's time to knock this off. Really, you proved nothing. There are vague and unproven very forced connections with "could" in between. That's it

[Colorado Blue]

88. Thanks. A logical response, finally.

[bemildred]

74. Means of self defense are considered acceptable:

When they address the guilty parties, the perpetrators, specifically, with precision, and otherwise they are not. People who have taken no offensive action should be left alone. If you can nail the shooters of the rockets, fair enough, when you nail a few random bystanders who did nothing, that is wrong.

[Colorado Blue]

87. OK, so if you've left Gaza, and can't see who is firing rockets

at you, but want to stop the rockets, how do you do that without sometimes victimizing innocents, if only by noise?

Respectfully, it sounds like you think the Israelis should invade Gaza and sit there with night vision glasses until somebody comes out and launches a rocket, then shoot at him, then somehow escape back across the border. Then the Israelis would be condemned for invading Gaza. This would of course result in a fresh round of media hysteria and of course, more rockets and bombs.

Is that more or less what you're suggesting?

The Israelis have been firing at open fields. They've been targeting KNOWN militants. They are flying empty planes, not fully loaded B-52's. The fence is a passive line of defense.

As I asked earlier: what else, short of simply sitting and waiting to get blown up, can they do? I would like to see the US sitting quietly while people in Sonora Province launched rockets across the Rio Grande. You know darn well this would NEVER occur, and further that the people being targeted would demand the most severe response.

Do you think Israel should be judged by standards that wouldn't be applied to the US or to any other democratic state?

[pelsar]

92. bemildred doesnt have an answer....

a couple of posts earlier when the discussion was of how to control a crowd mixed in with shooters, the first answer was "making the crowd like you"....after that, the bottom line was:

"I dont have an answer" Bemildred does not have realistic answers, that people (like me) could actually apply in the field....just a lot of "its wrong to inflict damage on those not involved)....outside of a lovely principle, its application in the real world of terrorists hiding behind the skirts of their mothers...doesnt work.

some of us live with real word problems and require realistic solutions, while others have the luxury of not having such problems in real life but get to lecture others about how to deal with them......in a utopian fashion

but you did have an interesting point: So bemildred would recommend the IDF sneak back into gaza with snipers and small units and kill the missle firing units....of course i wonder if she realizes that if such a unit was discovered, their retraction would involved missle firing helicopters, tanks and other forms of violence to get them out in one piece...but bemildred understands the risk and is probably for it......riiiiiight.

[bemildred]

108. If you consider the present situation practical and realistic,

then all I have to say is good luck to you, you're going to need it.

[bemildred]

105. In case you have not noticed, the rockets have not been stopped. nt

[eyl]

Not stopped, no

but their effectiveness has decreased - partly due to IDF counterattacks:

IDF: 4 out of 5 Qassams land in Gaza

Terror groups in the Gaza Strip are sparing no effort to launch rockets into Israel yet the Israel Defense Forces have identified a unique phenomenon: Over 80 percent of fired rockets fall on the Palestinian side.
:
Since the assassination of senior Islamic Jihad member Loai Saadi in Tul Qarem last month 40 rockets were launched in Israel’s direction, only 7 of which exploded in Israeli territory. The rest exploded in Palestinian areas, at time causing damages and injuries.
:
“This situation points to exhaustion among terror groups, Hamas no longer fires and the remaining groups seem to have less resources. The big question remains how the Palestinian public will reply. Will there be unrest that will influence terror groups or will they act indifferently,” a military official said.
:
On Sunday Israel gave the green light to Egypt to transfer ammunitions to the Palestinian Authority security forces in the Gaza Strip in accordance with a Cabinet decision last week to strengthen PA chairman Mahmoud Abbas before the January elections and assist him in restraining the activities of terror groups.

Source

[bemildred]

113. Right. And as long as you keep that up, that will be so.

And as soon as you go away they will be back.

The happy talk in this piece reminds me of the drivel the
Pentagon press hacks spout about the "progress" being made
in Iraq.

[Colorado Blue]

136. This is true. EOM

[bemildred]

109. If you don't get the guys shooting the rockets,

how does that stop the rockets? The theory seems to
be that if you don't know who to kill, you just pick some
people anyway. And it ought to be obvious that in that
case the original perps are STILL OUT THERE and they will
be back.

[Colorado Blue]

135. That's the point of targeting militants and militant leaders.

The Israelis are trying to be careful and not hit innocent people, and they're firing mostly at open fields where people fire rockets.

[barb162]

142. Isn't Abbas supposed to be policing this

Perhaps he can apply the acceptable self-defense police rules you posted in post 74 and send their rear ends to jail.

[barb162]

94. This could apply to Napoleonic style warfare where soldiers were

in clear view of each other on large open fields. Except they had no precision back in those days, relatively speaking. It doesn't work with the type of fighting being done between the Palestinians and Israelis. This standard has probably never been applied in any war, although probably every military college has this in their books somewhere. It sounds great but basically results in one side being a sitting duck in guerilla style warfare, which isn't very practicable or realistic when people are shooting from schools, hospitals, houses, etc.

[bemildred]

106. No, it is essentially the standard that all police adhere to.

Excepting maybe political police, "secret police" so to speak.

If a cop dropped a bomb on a suspected murderer in the middle
of a residential area, what do you think would happen to him?

My point is very simple, there is no conventional military
opponent here, and hence use of conventional military force
is not appropriate. It has been understood for quite a long
time now that to win guerilla wars, one must use restraint,
one must govern well, the "winning hearts and minds" idea.
I don't think the US' use of extreme force in Iraq is going to
stop the resistance there. Do you? And I don't think it's going
to work against the Palestinians. And I do think the course of
events over the past years and decades supports my position
very well.

But, if you think the present situation is great and there is
no need to consider some other course of action, then by all
means enjoy it.

[eyl]

110. Police can't function

if the government doesn't have general control of the territory, and they can only handle up to a certain level (both in spread and intensity) of violence. So in order to implement your solution, we would have to flood Gaza with troops again.

[bemildred]

114. Whose police? Whose police was it I suggested control Gaza?

I understand perfectly well that you want the rockets to stop.
I don't blame you. But you are not going to get it by being
sloppy about who you kill, and you are not going to get it
unless you get a viable Palestinian government to do it for
you. That ought to be obvious by this time, I mean we have
been at this for a while now, eh? Have a nice day.

[eyl]

117. You wrote

"No, it is essentially the standard that all police adhere to."

So you're pressing for police, or at least for the military to operate according to police rules (which effectively comes to the same thing in this case)

[bemildred]

119. Right. So Israeli police and military have been trying to control Gaza

since when, 1967? And they have failed in that, and withdrawn.
And now you think I want them to go back in? And fail some more?
You need an effective, legitimate Palestinian government, if you
want order in Gaza. You, Israel, need that. Have a nice day.

[eyl]

120. Which is what we've been trying to do

except that the Palestinians haven't shown much interest in doing so.

So it falls to the IDF; and your demand that they use police tactics would require reconquest of the territory.

[barb162]

143. Abbas needs to finally get over there and apply these rules

"Means of self defense are considered acceptable:
Edited on Sat Nov-05-05 09:38 PM by bemildred

When they address the guilty parties, the perpetrators, specifically, with precision, and otherwise they are not. People who have taken no offensive action should be left alone. If you can nail the shooters of the rockets, fair enough, when you nail a few random bystanders who did nothing, that is wrong."

How far do you really think he will get with this, that is policing his own people and using the police tactics you posted above. Do you think that will work?

[pelsar]

111. wrong war...

were not fighting a "guerilla war" nor are we trying to "win the hearts and mind of the palestenains.....we're busy with keeping them from blowing us up and shooting rockets at mortors at us.

and yes the amount coming out of gaza is down from when we first left....

inorder for you position to be tenable is has to be proven to a reasonable degree that all the palestenains want, are the "67 borders" and for those palestenains that dont agree, that they can be contained. Furthermore, you would have to show that the palestenian society will be stable enough once they have their state and the 67 borders that they're wont be a khomeni style revolution and we'll find ourselves being attacked from all directions (again).

since its impossible to prove any of those aspects the question is how close do we go before we risk our security......well were watching qaqillya (the city) with a hamas govt, gaza with the rockets and mortors....

perhaps thats what you dont get...we dont give a sh¡t about their "hearts and minds" ....we want them to stop shooting at us.....

[bemildred]

115. Opinions will vary, have a nice day. nt

[pelsar]

124. but knowledge shouldnt...

you keep talking about "police"....as if the palestenains are having some kind of "civil disobediance....you've mentioned "winning over the protesters.....and "winning over their hearts and minds"

i dont think you really have any idea of what this war is about...... what the dynamics are, the people involved.....what methods are used, have been used, have been discared.....what the motivations are of the various people involved.....

[barb162]

139. It's a good standard when run of the mill police work is being done

I think when both sides of a dispute adhere to these niceties, it is worthwhile. But such niceties don't work too well if only one side abides by the rules.


I think the Geneva Convention rules on defense are more appropriate when discussing I/P. Without going back to that thread, I think it was sometime in Sept.

This comment is needlessly argumentative because I don't ever remember posting I thought the situation was great or even implying it:
"But, if you think the present situation is great and there is no need to consider some other course of action, then by all means enjoy it.

[Englander]

96. 'Self-defense'?

Since when was the continuation of a brutal occupation, &
the use of collective punsihment against a civilian population,
considered as 'self-defense'?

~Next stop, Havana!!~

[bemildred]

107. Yeah, isn't that choice? nt

[pelsar]

112. since....

that "civilian population hides terrorist, sends suicide bombers to holiday dinners, that civilian population hides hand grenades in childrens diapers, that civilian population sends 14 year olds to carry bombs, that civilian population is not just used as a human shield, many are activily using their "civilian status" to hide their status as fighters...

tell them to put on some uniforms.....tell them to get out from behind their sisters skirts....take the mortors out from under their beds.....

[bemildred]

116. I can't believe you are defending random killing as a defense to terrorism

Have a nice day.

[pelsar]

123. what random killing?...

targeting a "combatent" who is hiding behind the skirts of his kid sister is not "random killng"..yes kid sister will probably get hurt or killed....but this may sound cruel..but better her than me.

tell mr combatent to come out from behind her skirt......

[barb162]

140. That's not what he wrote

[ProgressiveMuslim]

132. I think a symmetric conflict is exactly what Palestine would like.

Let's end the occupation, arm them equally, and let them duke it out, shall we?

[pelsar]

144. are you serious?.....

what good would that do?....it will put us right back in where we started from.....occupying the west bank and gaza....and a lot more dead...Hebron, Gaza city, etc will all be flattened in an all out war....infrastructure destroyed in Bethalem, Jenin (this time all of it flattened...)and then there really will be a refugee crises

in case you forgot in 67 the surrounding arab countries were better armed, had more men under arms had more ammunition...... (as it was in 48 as well)

and yes it is a "no brainer"....if the IDF were to use all of its weapons instead of perhaps the .1% of its fire power its using now, "palestine" would consist of lots and lots of rubble.

[barb162]

141. Excellent points which show how this conflict is really

being fought and how certain little niceties about standard police practice don't quite apply when it comes to terrorism. And if Abbas would maybe do his job every once in a while, Israel wouldn't have to do it for him.

[Scurrilous]

89. Demons in the skies of the Gaza Strip

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/641839.html

<snip>

"This word does not appear in the Hebrew dictionary, but an old-new weapon from the sophisticated arsenal directed against the Palestinian people has again suddenly emerged. While not deadly, it is fiendish: the sonic boom.

The world's best air force is amusing itself by creating fear in a helpless and terrified civilian population. Twenty-nine such booms were sounded during a period of four days in September, and this practice was repeated again recently, according to Physicians for Human Rights-Israel and the Gaza Community Mental Health Program, which jointly submitted a High Court petition on this matter. If there is such a thing as an unequivocal case of collective punishment, then this is it."

<snip>

"These booms, whose only purpose is to sow fear among innocent civilians, have been added to the artillery shells pounding the Gaza Strip and the daily barrage of liquidation missiles, which indiscriminately kill armed militants and innocent people. The fact that the air force is employing this weapon mainly late at night, or early in the morning, when masses of pupils are making their way to school, only makes its wickedness more conspicuous. Israel may have disengaged from Gaza, but its air force has not.

It is true, the liquidations and shelling are much worse. But the thinking behind the use of sonic booms is no less chilling: Israel has stuck with its old and bad policy that believes in "searing the consciousness" of the entire population so that it will pressure perpetrators of terrorist acts to stop their activity. The end result is generally the opposite; the cruel means of collective punishment serves to encourage terror more than prevent it.

But the method's ineffectiveness is not its only disadvantage. An air force that orders its pilots to generate a large noise only to sow fear among civilians is an air force with a moral flaw. While a pilot who fires a missile at a busy street, or drops a bomb on an apartment house, can still, barely, find some dubious justification for his action, what goes through the mind of a young pilot who sets out on a mission whose only aim is mass, indiscriminate intimidation? Does he envision the children who awaken in fear because of him? Does he consider the nightmares that plague them? Can he imagine his little brothers awakening in alarm in the middle of the night at the sound of the boom? Does he recall the panic that struck many homes in the Sharon area last week after a series of mysterious booms? Does he know that the commander of the air force in 2001 issued an explicit directive to avoid crossing the sound barrier on flights over populated areas in Israel due to "the tension this phenomenon creates among the residents," as reported in Issue 139 of the Air Force Journal? A complete squadron was grounded then because of a series of booms. The air force commander who forbade his troops from generating this noise is today the chief of staff and is ordering them to sound these booms."

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

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[Wordie]

127. Physicians for Human Rights-Israel condemns the practice (see post #5)

They have joined the suit to stop it. (repeating post #5)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/641005.html
<snip>
Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups yesterday petitioned the High Court of Justice to compel the Israeli air force to stop causing sonic booms over Gaza, citing psychological damage and calling the practice "collective punishment."

Physicians for Human Rights-Israel and the Gaza Community Mental Health Program petitioned the High Court to stop the supersonic flights.

NOTE! These are physicians, and Israelis to boot, who say the practice is inhumane.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

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[Colorado Blue]

137. Newyorican, humanity is exactly what trying to stop a war

WITHOUT KILLING PEOPLE is all about. Did you read the questions from the people in Israel? They're upset about the booms but they're afraid of the BOMBS. And they don't want to have to resort to DROPPING BOMBS instead of MAKING NOISE.

Where's the "humanity" for the people on the other side? I have seen NONE.

[Jim Sagle]

138. Crickets chirping...

[Lithos]

146. Locking

Thread seems to have gone off topic heavily and become a bit too personal.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator
Democratic Underground