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‘STOP SUICIDES, CLOSE GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE,’ GUN RIGHTS GROUP SUGGESTS

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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 08:46 AM
Original message
‘STOP SUICIDES, CLOSE GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE,’ GUN RIGHTS GROUP SUGGESTS
http://saf.org/viewpr.asp?id=139

BELLEVUE, WA – The Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) today called upon the San Francisco Board of Supervisors to “take an important step for public safety” and close the Golden Gate Bridge, which has been a popular suicide platform for more than 65 years.


“Several city supervisors want to ban handguns in San Francisco on the mere presumption that such a law would prevent crimes, accidents and suicides,” said SAF Founder Alan M. Gottlieb. “Well, it is an absolute certainty that closing the bridge would prevent suicides, and perhaps many accidents, as well. And just for the sake of argument, one seriously might question whether any of the more than 1,300 fatal falls from the bridge since 1937 were cleverly-concealed homicides.”


===================================================================

Interesting strategy, obviously they have no real intention of closing the bridge but it will give people something to think about.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. a very sweet hope indeed
pffft
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Deleted message
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. And RKBA proponents are
not progressive.

Who'da thunk..

:crazy:
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. There Are FAr More Progressives On MY Side of this Argument Than On Yours
Don't forget that.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Maria Celeste Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Ever here of the tyranny of the majority?
If popularity were the prime determinate of things we would still be teaching evolution in schools, have no birth control, let alone a abortion.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. And I don't recall a pro-RKBA post...
Edited on Sat Feb-05-05 04:23 PM by MrSandman
calling anyone's death lucky or fortunate.

If there had, that poster would have been roundly been accused of, and been determined to be, a disruptor. There would likely have been a thread in ATA requesting their banishment.


On edit...if one truly wants reasonable gun control measures implemented, the argument should be viewed as a continuum of choices rather than one side or the other...s

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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. FYI - some of the progressives on your side want to team up with the NRA..
to save social security!

You can join the team to save SS by going here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x98933
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Social Security is a Noble Cause
"Gun Rights" is not, IMHO.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. So is it...
A. Prohibition

or

B. "Reasonable gun control measures"

or

C. Not worth the fight?
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I Go With "B"
Every time. You gotta admit that as the lead message in this thread shows, some pro-gunners go to extremes.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. True enough...
What is reasonable?

For me, NICS, NFA, GCA of '68. Do away with the moratorium on class 3 transfers while keeping the tax stamp and current background checks.

Federal preemption of state laws conflicting with federal restrictions. CCW should be a state issue with no federally-mandated reciprocity regulations. Each state has different standards, yes. Each state has different needs. I know of no data which shows that non-standardized requirements have caused or contributed to increases in criminal or negligient shootings.
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Billy Ruffian Donating Member (672 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. gca of '68
is not so great ... it required recording of all ammunition sales.

The 86 FOPA had a lot of good stuff, but screwed up with an 11th hour addition of the additional full auto restrictions.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I can live with it...
Although I hate the grandchild of Walther, the offspring of the union of the PP and PPK which was conceived to comply with another poorly-written law.
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Billy Ruffian Donating Member (672 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. you can live with what?
the recording of ammunition sales? There was no benefit to society, law enforcement, criminal apprehension, crime solving, etc. All it did was create a paperwork burden for ammunition sellers.

or do you mean the machine gun ban of the 86 FOPA? I admit I don't know the details, but if I understand it correctly, it effectively prohibited the legal transfer (under the 34 NFA) of a full auto weapon made after 1986.

Poorly written laws need to be stricken from the statutes.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I can, in the name of compromise,
accept the GCA of '68. I would like to see the ban in the FOPA repealed.

I am only trying to ascertain what is the common ground I may have with proponents of "reasonable gun control". I seem to be finding no specific proposals other than prohibiting rectal orifices from owning firearms.
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Billy Ruffian Donating Member (672 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. That's OK, let's start with the 68 GCA
as a compromise.

IIRC, that law established
1) the 4473 forms at purchase,
2) banned imports of handguns with certain cosmetic features (but not the domestic manufacture of handguns that are exactly the same)
3) required that retailers of ammunition keep a log of all ammo sales.

I'd have to research to see what else was in there (and how much of it was repealed by 86 FOPA)

I would personally consider accepting item 1, reluctantly accept item 2, but item 3 was just stupid, and should not be brought back. I'll accept the instant background check (but not waiting periods.)

I say I would consider accepting such restrictions, as a compromise, but I need to hear what I would get in return. What's the compromise that the "reasonable gun control" proponents will offer to us?

You're right. We've seen nothing other than vague generalities about who should be prohibited from owning firearms.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. From my earlier post...

The main benefit to gunowners:
Repeal of the moratorium on class 3 transfers, and

Federal preemption of state laws conflicting with federal restrictions, i.e. more restrictive requirements.

...item 3 was just stupid, and should not be brought back.

Only the GCA requirements stilll in effect. IMO, the import restrictions were as foolish as the AWB. Consider the PPK vs the PPK/s.
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Billy Ruffian Donating Member (672 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. That would leave
the cheap handgun import ban and the 4473, IIRC.

I could live with that, if we got the class III situation fixed, and federal pre-emption.

Nationwide CCW would be nice, too
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Nice, but state issue, IMO
Nationwide CCW would be nice, too

Who said I am an uncompromising pre-NFA gun-huggin'....?
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Well then,
can you be counted on to team up with a group that doesn't support a noble cause (NRA) to help save a noble cause (SS)?

There is a certain someone in the gungeon that would really like to hear you are buying into their idea. Who knows...they could be reading this post right now
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Just Because The NRA and I Both Favor Social Security....
Edited on Tue Feb-08-05 04:28 PM by CO Liberal
...does NOT mean that I endorse or support any other positions held by the Nuts Ruining America. Especially while assholes like Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent are in NRA leadership positions.

Nice try, Township. But I still would rather see the Nuts Ruining America driven into extinction.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. Suicide should probably be legal. Armed robbery & murder.....not so much.
Edited on Sat Feb-05-05 09:08 AM by BlueEyedSon
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. Not to mention that it will be safer for the children...
:puke:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. Some people think suicide, and efforts to prevent it, are a joke.
Some others don't.

http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/livewire/000233.php

All along the Brooklyn Bridge’s walkway, groups of people huddle against the sides and grimace into cameras, trying to capture a piece of this view. Joggers rush by in all their spandex glory, headphones firmly attached to their heads. Others amble across the bridge, looking calm and serene, even as cars and trucks whizzing underneath shake the wooden slats beneath their feet.

But some people don’t come to the bridge for the view or to exercise, and it’s highly doubtful they feel calm. The New York Police Department receives about 700 calls each year for people attempting suicide by jumping off structures, and by far the Brooklyn Bridge lures the most jumpers, said Gary Gorman, a retired police officer who worked with the NYPD Emergency Service Unit. He also leads tour groups of the Brooklyn Bridge and explains how police officers talk down jumpers.

... Part of the appeal may lie in the bridge’s accessibility. The pedestrian walkway is in the middle of the bridge. But, perpendicularly attached to the walkway’s railings and running to the outer edge of the bridge are rows of metal beams about 5 inches in width, about 12 feet long---wide enough for a foot, and not so long that a desperate person couldn’t cross it in minutes.

... The bridge itself may be to blame for the lack of action. Said Gorman: “There’s ways of making the bridge secure, but it would probably take away from the beauty.”
Ran across that as I was looking for reports on the debate surrounding "suicide-proofing" the aqueduct in downtown Toronto. Not having much luck.

Here we are. It's a "viaduct".

http://www.schizophrenia.on.ca/bridge.html

The Bloor Street Viaduct - A Suicide Magnet

In June 1997, then President of East York Chapter Al Birney made a motion at our Annual General Meeting to take action against bridge suicides, citing the rising deaths at Toronto's Bloor St. Viaduct. Members of local chapters had lost three sons and one daughter at the bridge. The motion was unanimously adopted by chapter presidents, and Birney was invited to form the Schizophrenia Society of Ontario Bridge Committee. For three years, the Bridge Committee, led by Birney as Chairman and Michael McCamus as Spokesperson, has held meetings with 58 City Councillors and given numerous presentations at City Hall and in the community to advocate a suicide prevention fence. On average, one person jumps from the bridge every 22 days.

Research at similar "suicide magnets," including the Empire State Building, the Eiffel Tower, Golden Gate Bridge, and Washington's Duke Ellington Bridge, demonstrates that deterrent barriers prevent impulsive jumps, save lives, and protect bystanders travelling underneath the monuments. ...

On January 16, 2001, a 24-year-old University of Toronto student walked to Bloor Street's Prince Edward Viaduct, and leapt to his death. Since 1919, the landmark bridge has attracted over 400 suicides, a world record second only to Golden Gate Bridge.

On January 18, the Bloor Viaduct Project Steering Committee's chair Ellis Kirkland announced a $3.5 million sponsorship plan to complete the long-delayed $6 million Luminous Veil, an award- winning barrier design.
There are brief descriptions there of testimony from people who had lost family members, and the people who deal with the aftermath. Worth reading, for anyone who actually gives a damn.

Dr. Mark Quigg, an emergency room doctor who has treated hundreds of suicidal patients at Wellesley Hospital, said, "For most, suicide is an impulsive act, and if stopped, many individuals will go on to receive treatment."
... even about their tax dollars:

Dr. Sylvia Geist, former president of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, reminded councillors that every suicide results in $800,000 of costs for ambulance, health care, investigations, autopsies, funerals and lost wages.




I hadn't followed closely enough to know what the ultimate outcome was. Here it is:

http://imprint.uwaterloo.ca/issues/060101/4Human/human01.shtml



Well ... no, that was 2001, and it was still being wrangled over, so those are artists' representations, I guess. Having a hard time finding confirmation of the present status. This one says it's been built, in 2003
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&e=3&u=/usatoday/20050131/ts_usatoday/suicidestarnishthegoldengate

That article is specifically about the Golden Gate Bridge, and raises the question of whether publicity surrounding suicides leads to more suicides. Interestingly, I just read a report today about the observed rise in suicides following the (widely reported and commented on) suicides of celebrities.


Of course, there's always the old "oh, they'll just find some other way of killing themselves" chestnut.

http://www.preventdisease.com/news/articles/Toronto_Hopes_Bridge_Barrier_Will_Curb_Suicides.shtml

A recent letter to the editor of the Toronto Star newspaper suggested the barrier would be effective only if similar restrictions were erected on every other major bridge in the city.

But supporters of the barrier say the viaduct is more than just another bridge, and its prominent location and grim history has given it a perverse kind of cachet.

... "These places, these magnets tend to attract people who are looking for kind of a romanticized way to kill themselves," said Michael McCamus, a former journalism student who has been Birney's right-hand man in the campaign.

... They dusted off a 20-year-old study by former University of California at Berkeley psychologist Richard H. Seiden that found that of 515 people restrained from jumping off the Golden Gate between 1937 and 1971, 94 percent were still alive a median of 25 years later. Seiden also found that the Golden Gate drew more than five times as many suicides as the nearby Oakland Bay Bridge, which is of similar height and draws from the same population base.

So it's just one of those things that some people care about and some people don't -- whether other people who are in need of assistance kill themselves without getting it, and whether they will be provided with easy access to places that function as focal points for their desperation. Some people want to try to deter such people from impulsive acts of self-destruction; of course, they are generally the people who want to find ways of identifying and assisting the people in need of such assistance who might otherwise act on those impulses.

Suicide, i.e. attempting suicide, has not been illegal in Canada for quite a long time, by the way.


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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. West Virginia may not jail people...
for attempted suicide, but survivors will more than likely find themselves before a Mental Hygiene Commissioner to be involuntatily committed through a civil action.

Of course, they may have broken some other laws, trespass on the bridge, illegal possession of controlled substance...
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. suicide fencing has been pretty common in Maine for years
Memorial Bridge in Augusta has had a suicide fence since 1982, (or so I've read). Previously, it seems, scores of AMHI patients would go to the bridge and jump into the Kennebec. There was some recent strife about whether to rip out the old chainlink fencing and replace it with something pretty. I think they eventually got a grant.

Suicide barriers also have the effect of reducing the likelihood of accidental deaths and injuries. Some of those old bridge rails are so low that a pedestrian or someone skating or riding a bike could lose his balance and go right over the side without meaning to. In fact, there's one bridge near where I live that I don't like walking across for that very reason.
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anonymous44 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. suicide should be legal
if someone wants to die, then they should go ahead.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-11-05 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. Couldn't they just add some safety features?
To the guns and the bridges?
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