California driver license law hurts enforcement of gun laws

[slackmaster]

Non-resident aliens including illegal immigrants are prohibited by both federal and California law from buying firearms.

The bill that Governor Gray Davis signed recently, which gives illegal immigrants the right to obtain a California Driver License, will make it impossible for gun dealers to identify and deny sales of guns to illegal aliens. The new law allows use of an easily-obtained personal taxpayer identification number in lieu of a Social Security number, effectively breaking the connection between having a California Driver License and being a US citizen or resident alien.

Normally I do not cite groups that put out mostly propaganda (either pro-gun or anti-gun), but IMO these folks have a very good point:

http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/press-releases/CC-GrayDavisLoophole.html

[E_Zapata]

1. Pretty simple to ask a person for their social security card instead.

pretty simple.

[CO Liberal]

2. Or Their Green Card

:-)

[slackmaster]

6. A green card is not valid ID for buying a gun

Sorry, no dice on that.

Check the instructions on Form 4473. You have to present a US passport, military ID, or a state-issued driver license or ID card. Before this change in California law a nonresident alien could not obtain any of them legally. Now they can get a California Driver License or ID card perfectly legally.

[Superfly]

4. I haven't had a SSN card forever

I don't even know what one looks like.

B

[slackmaster]

5. No dice on that

Privacy experts advise against carrying a Social Security card because of what can happen if it's lost or stolen. I know that from personal experience with identity theft. I don't carry one.

And a Social Security number is NOT REQUIRED to buy a gun. Legal residency is required. Resident aliens are allowed to buy guns and do not have SS numbers. Possession of a valid driver license is adequate under federal law to establish residency. Now the California driver license does not necessarily mean someone is a legal resident. It's a terrible mistake IMO.

[iverglas]

7. simple solution

"Possession of a valid driver license is adequate under federal law to establish residency. Now the California driver license does not necessarily mean someone is a legal resident. It's a terrible mistake IMO."

The mistake lies in allowing driver's licences to be used for identification for this purpose. The fed. govt. has no control over who gets a driver's licence -- obviously -- so should not incorporate them in its legislation as proof of legal residence, which is a federal and not state jurisdiction.

Driver's licences are not acceptable proof of residence for crossing the Canada-US border, for instance. For pretty much exactly this reason. Non-citizens in Canada with temporary status (e.g. student visas) may get driver's licences. As they should of course be able to do.

So there's the question, really. If non-resident aliens with valid temporary status in the US, e.g. on a student visa, were always able to obtain driver's licences, as it seems they were, why wasn't this little problem spotted earlier?? Might one indeed surmise that the source's concern is not about non-residents getting firearms permits, but about illegal aliens doing it? That might indeed be a reasonable concern; that would have to be assessed in context.

Possession of a state driver's licence has *never*, I assured you, established residence in the US for any purpose. That question is under the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal govt. For some reason, the federal govt. chose to accept it as sufficient indication -- prima facie evidence, if you will -- of residence for the purpose of firearms licensing.

It used to be that Canada and the US accepted things like birth certificates and driver's licences for crossing the border, as sufficient indication of legal residence. That was because there was really no problem associated with doing that, and it made life easier for everyone involved not to demand passports. These days, when it seems to be so easy for undesirable types to get the kind of legal temporary status that would let them get driver's licences, it looks much less like a good trade-off.

There never *was* a legitimate "connection between having a California Driver License and being a US citizen or resident alien", if you ask me. Denying someone on a work or student visa a driver's licence would look like discrimination by the govt. on a prohibited and irrelevant ground, if it were done up here, anyhow.

How about a simple solution -- like driver's licence (or whatever other form of picture ID a state might offer) to establish identity, PLUS social security number to establish legal residence? -- with a passport being always the best proof of both in the absence of any other form of federal identification.

.

[slackmaster]

8. Your idea has merit but allow me to explain a few things further

The actual prima fascie evidence of lawful residence one provides in order to purchase a gun in the USA is a written affidavit on Page 1 of what used to be called BATF Form 4473. Here is page 1 of an old version of a particularly infamous one. Note the "I CERTIFY..." section just above the middle of the page:



The purpose of the ID document (passport, military ID, etc.) is only to allow the seller (dealer) to verify the face of the person and the signature he or she has witnessed on the form. By signing Part 1 of the form the buyer is certifying legal residence of the state as well as compliance with all the other conditions listed above (not being a convicted felon, etc.). If you get busted for being an illegal buyer, you can be imprisoned for signing a false affidavit on this form.

Just below the center of the page, in Section B the seller notes the type of identification checked. "Purchasers who are aliens must provide a valid government-issued photo identification..." In box #10, resident aliens have to provide other documentation of residence ("e.g. utility bills or lease agreements..."). Resident aliens have never been required to show a US- or state-issued document. A German driving license is perfectly acceptable for a German living here on a student visa.

Possession of a Social Security number does nothing to establish citizenship unless someone verifies the person's name (as established through picture ID) to the actual Social Security Administration database. There is presently no mechanism in place to do that for gun transactions. Perhaps there should be, but that still leaves no way to tell a legal resident alien from an illegal one who has stolen the identity of a legal citizen or resident alien.

So there's the question, really. If non-resident aliens with valid temporary status in the US, e.g. on a student visa, were always able to obtain driver's licences, as it seems they were, why wasn't this little problem spotted earlier?? Might one indeed surmise that the source's concern is not about non-residents getting firearms permits, but about illegal aliens doing it? That might indeed be a reasonable concern; that would have to be assessed in context.

You are exactly right. That is the concern, and California is overrun with about 2 million of the estimated 5 million illegal aliens in the USA. That's a lot more bodies than all of the tourists and students in the state at any given time. Even a small percentage of the illegals buying guns or voting fraudulently would be a significant problem. Something like 25% of inmates in California prisons are illegal aliens. Making it not just easy but actually LEGAL for them to fraudulently get a driver license cannot be a good idea.

[MrBenchley]

9. Emerson...the RKBA crowd's poster boy

tried to shoot his ex-wife after she got a restraining order against him...

[iverglas]

10. whoa, hold on

"Making it not just easy but actually LEGAL for them
to fraudulently get a driver license cannot be a good idea."

How can it be LEGAL to do something FRAUDULENTLY??

(when the fraud being perpetrated is on the govt. so that the individual can do what it would otherwise be illegal to do -- get a driver's licence)

There is no FRAUD being committed by an illegal alien who obtains a California driver's licence under the new law, as I have seen it explained here. Someone's slip is showing.


As it was here (the "here" emphasized):

"That is the concern, and California is overrun with about
2 million of the estimated 5 million illegal aliens in the USA."

Them be some negative value-laden words you using there, son.


"The purpose of the ID document (passport, military ID, etc.)
is only to allow the seller (dealer) to verify the face of the
person and the signature he or she has witnessed on the form.
By signing Part 1 of the form the buyer is certifying legal
residence of the state as well as compliance with all the other
conditions listed above (not being a convicted felon, etc.).
If you get busted for being an illegal buyer, you can be
imprisoned for signing a false affidavit on this form."

Okay, cool. The vendor's liability is restricted to liability for not checking what s/he is required to check -- there is no liability for selling to a disqualified person, just for selling without verifying an acceptable document.


Q (serious Q): if the vendor has some reason to believe that the would-be purchaser has sworn a false affidavit and/or is using fraudulent documents, does the vendor have any duty to inquire further, or refuse to sell?

Is the problem here not, at least in part, the fact that a private individual/corporation is performing a state (government) function? The same person is verifying eligibility for purchasing the firearm, as a state agent, and selling it, on his/her/its own behalf. Bit of a conflict of interest, maybe.

So another Q: is this an appropriate and adequate monitoring mechanism, even apart from the issues relating to establishing residence? (I'm assuming, from what I'm reading, that residence only, and no further licence or permit, is required in order to purchase a firearm.)


"Possession of a Social Security number does nothing to
establish citizenship unless someone verifies the person's name
(as established through picture ID) to the actual Social Security
Administration database. There is presently no mechanism in place
to do that for gun transactions."

Well, citizenship isn't the issue; residence is. I won't hold that against you necessarily; I've dealt with senior immigration officials who couldn't seem to keep them straight. I mean, unless you're saying that citizenship *should* be the issue, and I'm not assuming you're saying that.

And, well, that's why I said A + B -- official state picture ID to prove identity, official federal social security card (not just number) to prove status. (A passport being the only thing that does *both* simultaneously.) I'd assumed that your SS numbers distinguish between permanent and temporary status as our SI numbers do: if it starts with a "9", it belongs to someone with only temporary status in Canada, and an employer knows that s/he can't be hired without a work permit. The first thing every new immigrant does after receiving a Record of Landing (= green card) is apply for that non-nine number.

"Perhaps there should be, but that still leaves no way to tell
a legal resident alien from an illegal one who has stolen the
identity of a legal citizen or resident alien."

True -- but there should be a presumption that identity has been ascertained before a driver's licence is issued. (Identity -- not residence, regardless of what state laws say.) If the state relies simply on, say, paper birth certificates for issuing driver's licences, then yes, there's still a problem.

But the big point here is: ALL of these problems can arise just as easily in the case of native-born, white, English-speaking USAmericans. Anybody can steal someone else's identity and use it, e.g. for the purpose of acquiring firearms "legally" that s/he would in reality be barred from acquiring legally.

And that's where I see the slip showing.

The problems I see in the system are:

First, the system seems to rely on self-reporting in an area where I, personally, think that this is an inadequate control mechanism. Anybody can swear a false affidavit and present a false document.

Second, the only line of defence against attempts to obtain firearms "legally" illegally, i.e. through the regular channels but by a person not entitled to use them, is someone with an interest (i.e. financial) in the transaction proceeding.

Third, the system allows for "evidence" to be used to corroborate the possibly false and self-serving affidavit evidence that is simply not evidence of the relevant facts.

And I'd have just thought that it might have occurred -- to anybody jumping up and down so energetically about illegal aliens doing this stuff -- that the odd one o' them native-born, white, English-speaking folks with criminal records, or dishonourable discharges, or restraining orders against them, for instance, might just try to do the same thing.

And I'd even have thought that there might be more reason to get het up about that in some cases, and call for better mechanisms out of those particular folks' hands, than there might be in the case of many illegal aliens.

.

[slackmaster]

11. OK, you caught my slip on fraudulent + legal

Now that it's legal for them to get a standard driver license it is no longer fraudulent for them to do so. I think that is a mistake.

The present system which economically rewards people for entering the country illegally and for hiring illegal immigrants is a travesty. The inconsistency between federal immigration law and what is actually happening in California is shameful. We should either open up the borders so that people can come here more easily on temporary work permits, or actually enforce the law and aggressively deport every illegal immigrant who gets caught. I don't really have a preference either way, just can't stand the hypocrisy of the mess we live with here. Illegal immigrants are putting a very real strain on social support systems like welfare and justice.

I'll address this one:

Q (serious Q): if the vendor has some reason to believe that the would-be purchaser has sworn a false affidavit and/or is using fraudulent documents, does the vendor have any duty to inquire further, or refuse to sell?

Yes they do. If a dealer gets caught knowingly accepting a false affidavit his or her Federal Firearms License can be pulled.

Is the problem here not, at least in part, the fact that a private individual/corporation is performing a state (government) function?

A Federal Firearms Licensee is acting as an agent of the United States government as well as a private business person. The license carries many duties and responsibilities as well as privileges.

So another Q: is this an appropriate and adequate monitoring mechanism, even apart from the issues relating to establishing residence? (I'm assuming, from what I'm reading, that residence only, and no further licence or permit, is required in order to purchase a firearm.)

You left out the affidavit, which carries up to a 5-year federal prison term for perjury. Every year more than 100,000 people are caught lying on that form (busted in real time by NICS) but only about 1,000 of them face prosecution. That is what I call lax enforcement.

But the big point here is: ALL of these problems can arise just as easily in the case of native-born, white, English-speaking USAmericans. Anybody can steal someone else's identity and use it, e.g. for the purpose of acquiring firearms "legally" that s/he would in reality be barred from acquiring legally.

All true, but this change in the law makes it easier for non-natives who are here illegally to obtain a document that rightly or wrongly is accepted as valid identification for all kinds of business. It makes it that much harder to identify and deport illegal immigrants should the government ever grow the will to do so. A lot of gun laws have been justified as "Why should it be so easy for crooks to break the law?" Goose/gander, pot/kettle, etc.

[shatoga]

12. Anecdote from a conversation with an illegal alien

It was at a party that I met (Guillermo)a man introduced to me as Jose Parra.

He was the third Jose Parra, I'd met that summer.

With my halting Spanish and his much better English, we spoke for awhile.
He told me of his farm in Mexico, his wife and children.

I pointed out his wife at the party, and raised my eyebrows.

Guillermo had crossed into the US years ago.
got a job as a dishwasher.
Romanced and married a waitress.
Bought a green card in San Diego from a Reagan appointee (for $500.00)

Got US citizenship by being married to a US citizen.

Went home to Mexico with all the money from their joint bank account,
sold his US citizen's ID in Mexico;
bought the farm and married his childhood sweetheart.

He then crossed into the US again.
He was on his third US waitress wife, when I met him.
One or two more marriages and he could retire as a wealthy man.

All his children were going to follow in his footsteps he told me.


Legal?

Laywers don't go to law school to learn how to obey the law.
They go to learn how to get around the law.

That Reagan appointee in San Diego was exposed after he had sold many thousands of green cards.
He paid a fine.

Any of those thousands of illegals could buy a gun legally.
If they wanted to pay the much higher legal price.

It's still cheaper to buy black market with no background check,
no waiting period and no permits.

All firearms manufacturers could close tomorrow, and for centuries there would still be guns for sale.

[iverglas]

13. outright racism

What is this, one of those "pass it on" emails from one of your Republican friends?

Let me tell you about the white guy I met at a party a few years back ...

Your point is taken, although it is not the one you apparently intended to convey.

.

[shatoga]

14. That you don't like a truth does not make it false

iverglas,
That you don't like a truth does not make it false.

I grew up among immigrants.

Learned smatterings of German, Italian, Spanish;
by visiting at homes of classmates.
Grandparents usually spoke little or no English.

It's a true story.
Including that a Reagan appointee sold many thousands of green cards in San Diego.

Jobs lost to illegal immigrants often are low paying,
but often just because immigrants work harder for their money.

Many times I've heard "white" born-in-the-USA Americans say:
"It's too much like work."
Here in the deep south you can find bitching rednecks in bars every morning.
(6am on having their before work beers)
Bartender. another round...
I don't feel like going in today...
(repeat)
"That damned__insert expletive of minority_ got the promotion."
Bartender. another round...
I don't feel like going in today...
(repeat) until:
"G*D* boss laid me off and kept those damned__insert expletive of minority_"

Never crosses his booze addled mind that
that damned ___insert expletive of minority___
actually went to work each day
didn't show up drunk, and did the job.

After all Rush tells him
it's the people like him who are the backbone of America.
If only those damned Liberals didn't force bosses to hire those
___insert expletive of minority___, everything would be OK.


Back to your accusations of racism:
During one (High school) summer vacation I worked in the fields, the only Gringo in the crew.
Many were illegals...but they were honest decent people,
unlike our bosses. ("white" born-in-the-USA Americans)
Who would sometimes call Immigration instead of handing out checks.

One visit on payday from ElEmigre (INS)
only half a dozen of us
out of a workcrew of several dozen,
remained in the field, waiting to be paid.

Also true is that it's much cheaper and easier to buy any gun on the 'black market'
(also not a racist comment)
That summer job's earnings
also paid a gun store clerk to buy a pistol for himself,
then resell it to me the next day.

(before my "acid tongued buddy" spasmodically jumps in,
let me point out
that high school kids are not old enough to legally purchase handguns)

[DocSavage]

15. Racism?

From Merriam-Webster on line

How does relating a story about the behavior of an illigal immigrant equate to racism?

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
Date: 1936
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

[iverglas]

18. here are a couple for you

"How does relating a story about the behavior of an illigal immigrant equate to racism?"

From the Oxford Concise (relevant portions of entries):

Context:
the circumstances relevant to something under consideration

Intent:
intention; a purpose

Connotation:
that which is implied by a word etc. in addition to its literal or primary meaning

Relevant:
bearing on or having reference to the matter at hand

Infer:
deduce or conclude from facts or reasoning


Me, I conclude from the facts -- the nature of the story and the circumstances in which it was told, and the fact that the matter that was at hand was a discussion of the problems that allegedly arise when "illegal immigrants" are afforded certain privileges -- using basic reasoning skills -- that what was being implied by this anecdotal "evidence" concerning the alleged behaviour of one alleged individual was ... well hey, you deduce what you want, and I'll deduce what I want, k?

Having devoted quite a few years of my life to advocating for immigrants, legal and illegal, I'll just say that I knows racism when I sees it.

I also don't comment directly on the "illegal immigration" situation in the US, because the history and economics and sociology and ... and ... of that situation are completely different from history etc. in Canada and I am insufficiently familiar with the nature of the situation and insufficiently able to assess the implications of both the situation and any specific efforts to address it, and because it is not up to me to tell anyone else how to run their affairs, even where I would be otherwise justified in doing so, in matters in which I am not expert. Nonetheless, I do know enough to recognize the racism implicit ("implied though not plainly") in most of the bemoaning of the "illegal immigrant problem" that I see south of the border.

.

[MrBenchley]

16. Amazing, isn't it?

The RKBA crowd keep coming up with some truly ugly and demented bits of rubbish.....

[MrBenchley]

3. Too frigging funny.....

"gun dealers to identify and deny sales of guns to illegal aliens"
You mean the ones that are not going to perform the criminal background check?

What a pantload this bunch is....but at least we know now where a bunch of the RKBA "enthusiasts" here get a lot of the hooey they peddle....

http://www.ccrkba.org/news.html

"This is like looking over the shoulder of Alan M. Gottlieb, chairman of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and Joseph P. Tartaro, editor of Gun Week and president of the Second Amendment Foundation."

http://www.ccrkba.org/public_gt.html

Don't startle them if you try to look over their shoulders...they're armed and as crazy as shithouse rats....

[jody]

17. Do other states issue drivers licenses to people without a SSN?

Reference California bill, "SB 60"

It seems a simple procedure to deny firearm sales to anyone who does not have either a valid SSN or federal individual taxpayer
identification number unless that person produces other evidence proving they are authorized to purchase firearms. Federal law says “It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person” . . . “(5) who, being an alien - (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States”.

Doesn't that effectively deny firearm sales to illegal aliens?

California Vehicle Code as amended says:

QUOTE

1653.5.
(a) Every form prescribed by the department for use by an
applicant for the issuance or renewal by the department of a driver'
s license or identification card pursuant to Division 6 (commencing
with Section 12500) shall contain a section for the applicant's
social security account number, federal individual taxpayer
identification number, or other number or identifier deemed
appropriate by the department under paragraph (2) of subdivision (a)
of Section 12801.

(b) Every form prescribed by the department for use by an
applicant for the issuance, renewal, or transfer of the registration
or certificate of title to a vehicle shall contain a section for the
applicant's driver's license or identification card number.

(c) A person who submits to the department a form that, pursuant
to subdivision (a), contains a section for the applicant's social
security account number, federal individual taxpayer identification
number, or other number or identifier deemed appropriate by the
department under paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section 12801,
or pursuant to subdivision (b), the applicant's driver's license or
identification card number, if any, shall furnish the appropriate
number or identifier in the space provided.

(d)

(1) The department shall not complete an application for the
issuance or renewal by the department of a driver's license or
identification card pursuant to Division 6 (commencing with Section
12500) that does not include one of the following:


(A) The applicant's social security account number.

(B) Subject to paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section 12801,
a federal individual taxpayer identification number.

(C) Subject to paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section 12801,
a number or identifier that is determined to be appropriate by the
department.

UNQUOTE