Soliciting J/PS participant input on how to spend $500 at Front Site, NV

[slackmaster]

Yesterday I won in a raffle a $500 certificate to be applied toward training at the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute and resort in Nevada. I have to use it by the end of the year.

Without spending additional money I can take the two-day Empty Hand or Edged Weapon course. Either of those would make logical sense since it's unlikely that living in California I will ever be able to get a concealed handgun permit unless my life or job situation change in a presently unforeseeable way. I've always been curious to take a martial arts course, and this would get me enough of a taste to see whether or not it's something I'd like to pursue.

My other choices are to apply the $500 to any of Front Sight's four-day courses. I believe that includes Defensive Driving and any of a number of firearm courses - Handgun, submachine gun, etc. A driving course might be useful, OTOH I might want to take a firearms course just because it's a unique opportunity and would be a lot of fun.

Has anyone here ever taken a course at Front Sight? Any recommendations would be welcome.

Edited again: Here's the full course list, firearms and everything else - http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmsTraining/Courses.asp

[-..__...]

1. Too much to choose from.

I'd have a hard time deciding whether to take a course in a skill that I'd find useful or taking a course simply because it would be fun.

If I was going for something useful, I'd sign up for one of the precision rifle courses (I'm more into the accuracy aspect of shooting than defensive uses).

For fun... defiantly the Uzi course.

The defensive driving course sounds like it could fill both niches.

[MrBenchley]

2. How about a down payment on a condo?

"In the Nevada desert, about 45 minutes west of Las Vegas, a multi-million dollar refuge for gun enthusiasts is taking shape. The 550-acre gated community is called Front Sight and it's the brainchild of Ignatius Piazza, a 41-year-old chiropractor from Santa Cruz County, California.
He says it will be like a "Disneyland for gun-lovers" and the "safest community in America," replete with guns and shooting ranges as well as 177 homes, 350 condominiums, a supermarket, community center, and a restaurant. The streets in this community will have names such as "Second Amendment Drive" and "Sense of Duty Way".
Luis Tolley, Western Regional Director for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence says he isn't opposed to the Front Sight idea. He says, "If all the machine-gun aficionados and all the survivalists want to get together and live in a little town, maybe the rest of us will be safer." He says the idea that there would be a lot of people who would be willing to raise a family there is just "silly".
Not so according to Piazza, who says people who believe government is stripping them of their rights will pay big money to be a part of this community. Already he says he has sold almost 50 "platinum" memberships for up to $350,000 a piece. These memberships include a lot where a home will be built and lifetime use of the ranges. Piazza says it's his vision of the American Dream."

http://www.acfnewsource.org/democracy/home_on_range.html

Yeah, the American Dream...your very own land swindle AND membership in a cult!

"Listed in the World Institute of Scientology Enterprises (WISE) 1997 directory as:
Piazza Chiropractic
Dr. Ignatius Piazza
7887 Soquel Dr, Ste. G
Aptos, CA 95003
Tel. [phone]
Fax [phone]

Previously Mr. Piazza used the same fax# for Front Sight as is listed in the WISE directory:"

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/1455/scientology_recruitment_in_the_workplace/ip.txt

"It appears that the largest civilian firearms training facility in the United States is owned by a Scientologist."

http://www.lermanet2.com/scientologyscandals/fourthsecret.htm

[skippythwndrdog]

5. OOH! Those scary Scientologists!

There ya go, trampling on others beliefs again.

Would it have been better if Piazza were a Unitarian?

Let's face it, in the eyes of some, no matter what anyone does with the rest of his life, if he's in any way attached to friearms for sport, self defense, or any other reason all other parts of his life are worthless as well.

I guess Nobel is scum also because he invented dynamite?

Does that means that Kerry is worthless in their eyes because he - heaven forbid, shudder - shoots and eats doves according to his press?

Yup. That's the ticket. If you've ever touched a gun for any purpose other than law enforcement, military training and use, or destruction of said firearm, you're scum and your life is scum.

[slackmaster]

7. If someone wants to play "genetic fallacy" try this on for size

My $500 gift certificate was donated by the JPFO.

:evilgrin:

[skippythwndrdog]

8. Too cool! n/t

[MrBenchley]

14. That IS funny, slack....

After all, they must be liberals, because they're Jews, right?

[MrBenchley]

10. Hey, if snuggling up to this peculiar yobbo don't bother you

or the other "pro gun democrats," don't let me stop you....

"Let's face it, in the eyes of some, no matter what anyone does with the rest of his life, if he's in any way attached to friearms for sport, self defense, or any other reason all other parts of his life are worthless as well."
Hey, run right out and buy a condo in the middle of the Nevada desert, skippy....

"Does that means that Kerry is worthless in their eyes"
Actually, it's funny...all the attacks on Kerry down here have been from trigger-happy "enthusiasts."

[iverglas]

18. wtf?

Would it have been better if Piazza were a Unitarian?

Uh, yeah. Because if he were, he wouldn't very likely be what he is now -- which is, quite plainly, a crook. Maybe you weren't aware that that's what scientologists are, eh? Go ask google.


Let's face it, in the eyes of some, no matter what anyone does with the rest of his life, if he's in any way attached to friearms for sport, self defense, or any other reason all other parts of his life are worthless as well.

Hmm ... if you say so. I didn't notice anybody else saying so, but don't let that stop you from saying so, 'k?


I guess Nobel is scum also because he invented dynamite?

Do you often win prizes for guessing? How many fingers am I holding up?

[goju]

3. Edged Weapon

Id look into it more but it sounds about right considering where you live. Have fun!

[skippythwndrdog]

4. I'd go for the handgun defense course if it were me.

I'm a Gunsite grad. I can't begin tell you how much the course helped. From what I hear, Front Sight is on par with Gunsite in their training.

All that being said, since you live in CA, the hand-tp-hand course may be more useful. I agree that your odds of ever getting a CC permit are slim to none - unless you want to become a cop.

It's a tough choice, but a good one to ponder. Congrats. I think you'll benefit from whichever course you choose.

I never win anything I want. I entered a raffle recently. What did I win? Not one of the good prizes. I got the "Grand Prize" - an opportunity to go to Memphis and watch good ol' boys turn left really fast for a couple of hours. You guessed it! I got transportation, tickets, hotel and meals for two to see the Sams Town 250 NASCAR race. I'd personally rather watch paint dry. I think I'll take the trip, skip the race, and spend my time on Beale Street and Southland Greyhound Park. At least the limo for 4 hours each way will be comfortable. I'd much rather have won the shotgun. It was a Benelli.

[slackmaster]

6. Thanks very much for the input

I agree that your odds of ever getting a CC permit are slim to none...

And Slim was most recently sighted on the last stagecoach leaving town. :D

If I lived in an NFA-friendly state the Uzi course would actually be useful as well as fun.

I never win anything I want.

My guardian angel must have been looking out for me, plus I spent $60 on raffle tickets.

All told I walked out with about $700 worth of stuff, and only one item (a gold-leaf Smith & Wesson coffee mug) qualifies as "useless NRA swag".

[skippythwndrdog]

9. You lucky S.O.B.

except for the state laws you have to deal with.

[LibLabUK]

11. Ebay it and...

Do something worthwhile with the cash

[Vladimir]

12. Fascist!

;)

[slackmaster]

13. Good thought but it's not transferrable

The certificate has no cash value and can be used only by me.

[MrBenchley]

15. Good post!

[iverglas]

20. gimme a break

First Scientology, now World Vision???

Have you all gone insane in my absence?

I know there's Oxfam where you are ... and Care, and the Red Cross, and Save the Children. There just really isn't any need to go giving money to loony right-wing xian fundamentalist CIA fronts.

http://www.davidcogswell.com/MediaRoulette/BushHinckley.html
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/112600.html
http://www.theamericanmag.com/html/issues/area51/040613/040613.html
http://www.africa2000.com/BNDX/bao128.htm

Never mind the Hinckley - Reagan assassination conspiracy theory stuff; the plain fact is that WV was founded for right-wing aims and by right-wing interests -- and never mind the loony sources calling WV an arm of the communistic new world order forces ... . The simple fact is that World Vision is primarily a fundamentalist protestant evangelical outfit that happens to engage in charitable/advocacy work when it suits its purposes.

Protestant evangelicism in Latin America and elsewhere is just one more outcropping of USAmerican cultural imperialism; like Jack Valenti's Hollywood, it is a vanguard of economic imperialism. And as the culture-industry arm of the invasion sets itself up as the champion of the colonized population's freedom of speech, the religion-industry arm pretends to champion its freedom of religion. Please, let us not be fooled.

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=139

The moderate view of World Vision is this:

http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v16n2/PE_Butler2.html

Often Progressives fail to recognize that religious organizations, even conservative ones, hold diverse political perspectives. They either lump religious organizations together as being humane as symbolized by the Dalai Lama, or they see all of them as oppressive and intolerant as epitomized by Jerry Falwell. All Evangelicals, for instance, do not subscribe to the views of the Christian Right, as many mistakenly believe. Many support the UN’s work and much of its social agenda. There are progressive groups such as Jim Wallis’ Sojourners and moderate ones such as the National Association of Evangelicals. World Vision is an example of an NGO with a large Conservative Evangelical constituency that supports the work of the UN and that does excellent work on human rights. Such groups can bridge the gap between Conservatives and Progressives and can be strategic partners in advocacy work, especially when there is a conservative U.S. Administration.

(Wallis, for instance, was instrumental in extracting a meeting from Bush with religious organizations seeking a way of avoiding the invasion of Iraq.)

Me, I just wouldn't want to be connected with anything that has connections with, oh, General Efrain Rios Montt, who became president <of Guatemala> after a military coup in March 1982:

http://chiapas.mediosindependientes.org/display.php3?article_id=106653

Guatemala: After the 1976 earthquake, 28 Gospel Outreach evangelicals from California arrived in Guatemala to help rebuild the country and establish El Verbo <the word> church. Since its arrival in Guatemala El Verbo has been involved in rebuilding earthquake-damaged infrastructure, building housing, establishing "Christian" schools and establishing Casa Barnabe, an orphanage. In March 1991 Verbo doctor, Mario Bolanos, opened the first Christian hospital in Guatemala. An early convert was General Efrain Rios Montt, who became president after a military coup in March 1982.

... and who of course

... massacred 60,000 Maya Indians in 1982-83.

... Nicaragua: Verbo Ministries has been in Nicaragua since September of 1979.
Supervised by Bob Trolese, Verbo churches in Nicaragua have constructed housing and water projects as well as opening schools and orphanages. They also have a discipleship center located on a farm of several acres. "Project Manna," a combined effort of Verbo Ministries and Park West Children's Fund has been active in Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Guatemala. In May 1991, the ship "Spirit" brought its second 4000-ton shipment of food and supplies to Nicaragua before moving on to deliver another 1000 tons of supplies to Guatemala. While the ship was in port, Carlos Ramirez, Don Tipton, Pepe Garces, and Bob Trolese of Verbo held an audience with Nicaraguan president Violeta Chamorro and her staff. El Verbo has also established a Casa Barnabe orphanage in Nicaragua, which specializes in arranging foreign adoption of Nicaraguan orphans. Verbo has a Christian school in Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua. Verbo has expanded its church-planting operations to Bluefields, Nicaragua.

To the dismay of Guatemalan refugees in Canada, El Verbo announced plans to begin operations in Toronto in early 1991.

Bible Literature International of Ohio supported the Verbo church campaign called "Operation Whole Armor" which put a copy of the New Testament in the hands of 70,000 military personnel, civil patrol members, and police officers.

Since the Ixil Triangle counterinsurgency operation started, Verbo Ministries has worked among Indian refugees with Wycliffe Bible Translators, the Behrhorst Clinic, Globe Missionary Evangelism, and World Vision.

Judged by the company one keeps, and all that. Rios Montt and Violetta Chamorro ain't company I want to be keeping, either directly or vicariously.


Heh. In trying to find the current home of GroupWatch files, I ran across that Police Against the New World Order guy ...
http://www.publiceye.org/eyes/undergun.html
... synchronicity ...

[LibLabUK]

22. D'oh!

"I know there's Oxfam where you are ... and Care, and the Red Cross, and Save the Children. There just really isn't any need to go giving money to loony right-wing xian fundamentalist CIA fronts."

I was looking for a US charity that did the sponsorship thing... I guess I should have spent more than 2 minutes looking.

[iverglas]

26. phew

I was afraid World Vision had colonized the home world there, too!

I loved the cops and firefighters with their hats out for Oxfam and other international development NGOs at the top of the escalators in the tube. One day, we dumped our pocket coins in a hat on the way out and then discovered we'd got out at the wrong station, and the guy at the gate (who inexplicably couldn't give us change for the fare) let us go back in when we explained our predicament.

Also, British Airways collected everybody's left-over "foreign" coinage for UNICEF, on the flight back home. They must raise a fair bundle that way -- especially between Canada and the UK, with our high-denomination coins. ;) Why don't all airlines do that?

[skippythwndrdog]

31. Good intentions, but forget the Red Cross

I've seen the wonderful RC volunteers selling relief supplies that were supposed to go to disaster victims. No links, just my own eyewitness account.

Someone help me out here.

There was a gas line explosion at an apartment house in NJ several years ago. The RC was Johnny on the spot with blankets, food, etc. They took aton of pics, then collected their goods from the victims and left because the explosion was not a natural disaster. "Our mistake."

Within a few months, photos of folks at that scene were used in RC ad campaigns. Last I heard, there were several lawsuits pending because the RC claimed they aided those folks when in fact they only used htem for a handy photo op and were using the photos without permission. Needless to say, the folks in the photos were not pleased at having the promise of help withdrawn after a couple of hours themn having the RC hold them out as examples to the world of the aid it gives.

My father and stepfather also told similar tales of RC personnel selling goodds intended for relief packages in both theaters of WW II. Pop was in Europe. My stepdad was in the Pacific.

Also: Why does the RC charge (locally) over $200.00 for a pint of blood (to defray costs) when Western Kentucky regional Blood Center provides blood for under $50.00? Their costs must be through the roof.

I won't even get into the RC board's decision about the 9-11 fund which was later reversed, not because it was the right thing to do, but because of public outrage.

For my money Christian Children's fund is the best charity out there. Almost 90% of each dollar goes to the kids. No other charity comes close except for the WHAS Crusade for Children (Louisville, KY) which returns 100% of every dollar collected to charities in the counties from which the donations came.

[iverglas]

34. ah, right-wing myths

My father and stepfather also told similar tales of RC personnel selling goodds intended for relief packages in both theaters of WW II. Pop was in Europe. My stepdad was in the Pacific.

I don't remember whether it was Abby or Ann who tackled this one a decade or more ago, but it's been done.

As I recall it: the US govt/military/whatever required that the Red Cross charge members of the US military, e.g. in military hospitals, for goods it supplied. (This meant that it charged members of other country's militaries for such goods as well, just to be fair; my friend's right-wing mother never tires of telling the tale of how her husband was charged for writing paper by the RC in Korea ...)

The Red Cross plays a vital role in the development and implementation of international humanitarian law. No wonder the right-wingers hate it so much. And I prefer credible, substantiated facts to back up allegations over anecdotes any day.

The Red Cross is not perfect. It was blameworthy in the tainted-blood scandal in Canada a few years ago. But few human organizations actually are perfect.

Yes, Christian Children's Fund, with its heart-rending infomercials, sure looks good. What it actually accomplishes, in terms of the change that is needed by the people it is supposedly helping if they and their communities and societies are to achieve the development they need, rather than continue to be dependent on relief, is rather more questionable.
http://thewitness.org/archive/oct2001/kuenstler.html

[skippythwndrdog]

35. Hate to burst your bubble

My wife and I sponsor 2 CCF kids. One in Guatemala and one in Honduras. We've gone there and seen what's being done for the kids and their communities with our dollars.

I see that you didn't address the 9-11 fund or the NJ apartment house gas explosion episodes. Guess they didn't fit your agenda.

[iverglas]

36. guess again

I see that you didn't address the 9-11 fund or the NJ apartment house gas explosion episodes. Guess they didn't fit your agenda.

I guess that:

(a) they are outside my personal knowledge, since I don't live in NYC, NJ or the country in which they are located, and really do have other things to occupy my mind and time than the minor goings-on outside my borders;

(b) I'm actually quite busy at the moment and don't have time to do the googling that I usually do when faced with allegations that I might be idly curious about.

What I did do was offer an example that IS within my personal knowledge -- the tainted-blood scandal in Canada, about which I know quite a bit -- as evidence that, yes, the Red Cross is not perfect. Sorry if you didn't grasp this ... or if what I said didn't fit *your* agenda. Whatever.

The International Red Cross, the one that I had in mind when I suggested a place for donations, is really quite a different animal from the national Red Crosses that handle things like disaster relief within the US and the blood supply in Canada (which it no longer handles, btw). You might want to investigate this. Unless it doesn't fit your agenda.

I have no doubt that you have seen what your dollars are doing in the places where you send them. It simply isn't what I like my dollars to do. Mine tend to go to Oxfam.

Any idea how many bibles and bible study classes your dollars pay for?

[enfield collector]

16. shame you can't get a ccw, why not ask diane feinstein to help

you get one, she seems to know the procedure.

[MrBenchley]

19. Bet Dianne Feinstein could stay on topic...

and doesn't need to regurgitate right wing talking points.

[skippythwndrdog]

37. An astute observation

(a) they are outside my personal knowledge, since I don't live in NYC, NJ or the country in which they are located, and really do have other things to occupy my mind and time than the minor goings-on outside my borders;

Then why do you post to issues on this board that deal with U.S. laws and issues. Wait! Because the spill over might affect Canada! One point for me! Heaven forbid that an agency founded right here in the U.S. (Red Cross) (Google Clara Barton) might contaminate other parts of the world by creeping outside it's own borders. I suggest you start a movement to toss their collective asses out of your country. Then you can tend to your business and we can tend to ours.

I think I'll goo update my ignore list. I remember a poster from GD 2004 I want nothing else to do with.

[iverglas]

38. 'twas indeed

How odd. This reply to post # 37 seems to have been intended as a reply to my post #36 ...

And yet ... not a really good one ...

Then why do you post to issues on this board that deal with U.S. laws and issues.

... post #36 -- and the discussion it was part of -- had precisely sweet bugger all to do with "issues that deal with U.S. laws and issues". But hey. Don't let me interrupt your diversionary grooming.

Don't let's be forgetting that what I actually said, that you were apparently trying to respond to, was:

... the minor goings-on outside my borders

You see? There are minor goings-on outside my borders (like the ones you raised), and there are major goings-on outside my borders. I take an interest in the former if they are actually interesting to me, and I take an interest in the latter as the natural thing done by an intelligent, responsible inhabitant of the earth.


Heaven forbid that an agency founded right here in the U.S. (Red Cross) (Google Clara Barton) might contaminate other parts of the world by creeping outside it's own borders.

You might want to google, oh, "international red cross" "founded by" before shooting your mouth off too much more.

The International Red Cross was founded in Geneva in 1863.
http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2001/10/daily-10-29-2001.shtml
- item 1 in the google results list.

http://www.redcross.org/museum/pfpre1900a.html

Clara Barton dominates the early history of the American Red Cross, which was modeled after the International Red Cross. She did not originate the Red Cross idea, but she was the first person to establish a lasting Red Cross Society in America. She successfully organized the American Association of the Red Cross in Washington, D.C., on May 21, 1881. Created to serve America in peace and in war, during times of disaster and national calamity, Barton's organization took its service beyond that of the International Red Cross Movement by adding disaster relief to battlefield assistance. She served as the organization's volunteer president until 1904.

(Oh, btw, she also succeeded the UK's Florence Nightingale, the founder of modern nursing, in that battlefield-assistance stuff.)

Henry Dunant (1828-1910)
After witnessing the suffering of the wounded following the Battle of Solferino, Henry Dunant (1828-1910), a Swiss businessman, initiated relief efforts that led to the founding of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement.

Hope you enjoyed that foot.


I suggest you start a movement to toss their collective asses out of your country. Then you can tend to your business and we can tend to ours.

Jeez, wouldn't the world be a lovelier place if y'all did that?

But I jest. Nobody can do that. Tending to one's own business ALWAYS affects someone else, loonytarian ravings notwithstanding.


I think I'll goo update my ignore list. I remember a poster from GD 2004 I want nothing else to do with.

Goo what you like. Damned if I can figure out how some people have such a hard time with basic rule-following, not to mention basic civility, and don't let's be forgetting basic reasoning ...

[iverglas]

39. still chewing the foot?

A summary, for you.

Heaven forbid that an agency founded right here in the U.S. (Red Cross) (Google Clara Barton) might contaminate other parts of the world by creeping outside it's own borders.

The International Red Cross (to which I was obviously alluding when I included it in a list of international development/relief aid agencies in which the others were Oxfam, Care and Save the Children, in response to a reference to World Vision -- that sui generis rule) was founded in Geneva in 1863 at the instigation of a Swiss citizen.

The American Red Cross (which operates inside the US and is therefore not of great interest or concern to me, and certainly is not of the same genus as Oxfam, Care and Save the Children) was founded in 1881.

The "Red Cross" was NOT founded in the US, and was NOT founded by Clara Barton.

Clever of her to have adopted a very good idea that originated outside her borders, though. Plainly there have been USAmericans who are not ethnocentric xenophobic dunderheads.

Not so clever of you to have made this bizarrely inaccurate claim, though.

[slackmaster]

23. Here's the kind of reply I'm sure she would send

"Thanks for your support in my pursuit of gun safety...."

[MrBenchley]

25. Smart lady....

Guess she knows what a waste of time it is trying to reason with gun nuts....

[UpsideDownFlag]

29. let's talk crap about dems.

its so fun.

[MrBenchley]

30. Funny how these "pro gun democrats"

so bent out of shape by Feinstein can never bring themselves to say a bad word about Republicans, ain't it?

[slackmaster]

33. Not crap JibJab, FACT!

I've written to Senator Feinstein at least two dozen times about a broad range of subjects and never gotten anything better than a boilerplate response.

In stark contrast, Senator Boxer's staff actually reads and sends intelligent replies to constituents' letters.

[iverglas]

17. hmm

... it's unlikely that living in California I will ever be able to get a concealed handgun permit unless my life or job situation change in a presently unforeseeable way.

However, as I recall, your work *does* require that you drive an SUV.

We all know what dangerous killing machines those things are. I mean, we're told it here, day after day, week after week ...

But certainly most people don't buy 'em for that purpose. Law-abiding SUV owners must be legion.

So surely they offer courses in how to use one's SUV more effectively for self-defence, don't they?

[enfield collector]

21. funny you should mention that because they do

http://www.oncourse4wd.com/

[slackmaster]

24. I'd take a course like that only if they provide the SUV

I'm not going to put my nice clean (clean dust, no mud) Pathfinder through that kind of torture unless I really need to.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[necso]

32. Never been, but these look good.

http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmsTraining/Courses.asp?Action=View&ID=119

http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmsTraining/Courses.asp?Action=View&ID=121

The latter in particular looks real good.