ok, guns might not cause crime- but they sure as hell excacerbate it a lot

[UpsideDownFlag]

that statement is my version of a compromise. can we argee that there might, just might, be a significantly lower amount of bank robbings, 7-11 stickups, muggings, etc., without the presence of guns?

[lastknowngood]

1. Guns don't cause crime humans do. Just limit the number of

humans and you limit the crime. Take the equation to it's logical conclusion and no humans no crime. Case closed.

[stellanoir]

2. "Ray guns don't eviscerate Zorbonians

Zorbonians eviscerate Zorbonians."- Gary Larson

[gumby]

8. That's brilliant!

No more humans, no more gun crime.

No more trees, no more forest fires.

No more water, no more mercury poisoning.

No more fish, no more ocean pollution.

No more breathable air, no more asthma.

Brilliant!

[MrBenchley]

19. So I guess that's what the aim of the RKBA movement is

Kill em all....

[thomas82]

3. delete

delete

[thomas82]

4. No they wouldn't

Criminals would just use crossbows, swords and knives. even if they banned all guns the criminals would still have them either self manufactured or stolen from assassinated law enforcement officers. Think about it?? more law enforcement officers would be murdered to obtain the weapons that would then be outlawed. Boy that sounds like a safe USA right?
Tom

[MrBenchley]

20. Yeah, crossbows...that's the ticket....

"Think about it??"
I can hardly stop laughing from thinking about it.

Tell us, would criminals also start yelling stuff like "Ho, varlet!" and the like?

[thomas82]

29. dunno

why don't ask some Australians when the John Belushi type came into the store and yells BANZAI!!!!!swinging his flea market $50 sword.

Apparently the sheep wet their pants after seeing a sword, then they banned Swords in Australia.

Hell a crossbow would give them a heart attack!!!
Tom

[MrBenchley]

41. Next time you actually encounter an Australian

be sure and call him a sheep to his face...

[Vladimir]

33. Hey Bench, if crossbows are functionally equivalent to guns

why do you reckon the army stopped using them all those years ago?

[MrBenchley]

40. Dianne Feinstein made them do it (snicker)

[library_max]

39. That's not how it has worked in real life.

Canada, Australia, and the UK (the three nations in the world most similar to ours culturally) all have strict gun controls and have one third our murder rate (per capita) or less. So while probably some crimes were committed with other weapons instead of guns, a lot were just left uncommitted.

[MrBenchley]

42. What does real life ever have to do with the RKBA?

[Vladimir]

5. Of course guns facilitate crime

the problem is actualy preventing the criminals from getting hold of them...

[UpsideDownFlag]

6. that's part of my point.

guns facilitate crime, hence their regulation should be enforced.

[Vladimir]

9. Agreed

indeed, given the number of murders where its a loved one doing the killing, there is something to be gained from tightly controlling what guns the 'law-abiding' gun owners can get hold of too...

[eaprez]

7. You wanna lower the crime rate.....

...then level the playing field.

[UpsideDownFlag]

10. charlton heston couldn't have said it better himself.

let's give every man, woman, and child in america guns. that way, it'll be like the good old days of mutually assured destruction, all over again- except with guns instead of nukes.

[eaprez]

13. You obviously misunderstood my point or you wouldn't have said

such a thing. What I meant by leveling the playing field was to give educational and economic opportunities to the disenfranchised....not GUNS. Duuuhhh!!!!!!

[Vladimir]

11. They tried that once... I think it was called the wild west

really want to go back there? Really really want to?

[UpsideDownFlag]

12. sure. let's reinstate lynchings and slavery, too.

for that matter, let's start calling women "good, sturdy housewives" too. they can all make pies and chicken for us. ooh, and whenever one of us gets wronged, we can make a posse.

*sigh*

[eaprez]

15. you too obviously misunderstood the point...

... What I meant by leveling the playing field was to give educational and economic opportunities to the disenfranchised....not GUNS. Duuuhhh!!!!!!

[Vladimir]

17. Sorry

I got a bit trigger happy there myself. this meaning I of course agree with wholeheartedly. You can't hope to cure crime without curing its causes...

[Wcross]

14. How about severe punishment for gun crimes?

Felon caught with a gun, 30 years in prison.
Armed robbery, 40 years in prison.
Homicide with a gun- life in prison.

You get the picture.

To think that the 80 million gun owners in America are a crime waiting to happen is extreme. Why not punish those that commit crimes with guns rather than those that merely own them?

I ask you, how will more laws deter a law breaker?

[eaprez]

16. What is it with Americans and their love for guns anyway?

its almost an obsession.

[UpsideDownFlag]

18. yes, well said.

sorry for misunderstanding your previous post.

[MrBenchley]

21. It's a fetish

and not a healthy one....

[UpsideDownFlag]

22. "oooh, oooh, your gun is so big..."

lol.

[MrBenchley]

23. The entire case for RKBA

seems to be made up out of the dimwitted fantasies they used to publish in pulp magazines like "Real Men's Adventure." Guess now that they don't publish crap like that, pathetic guys rely on the NRA for their manly thrills...

[Wcross]

24. Ah, starting the gun=penis arguement.

I can't speak for all gun owners but I assure you it is not an issue of "love" no more than a person "loves" a miter saw. I appreciate guns as an effective tool for self defense just as I appreciate a miter saw for effective angle cutting of wood.

Speaking of obsession, just why are people so against gun ownership but when the subject of curbing gun violence is brought up they revert to childish and demeaning accusations.

[MrBenchley]

25. Next time there's a "miter saw porn" thread, I'll ask...

And I suspect we'll see one of these humorless trigger-happy goof starting a thread with pictures of a miter saw.....

"when the subject of curbing gun violence is brought up they revert to childish and demeaning accusations. "
Gee, cross, the only chidlish and demaning accusations I've ever seen are the ones RKBAers make: that anyone making serious and practical suggestions, such as the ones in our party platform or in the bills proposed by respected Democrats and liberals, is "against all gun ownership"....

[Tannhauser]

32. gun crime = double time

In KY, we already give stricter punishment on crimes committed with any kind of gun, without requiring registration and licensing. I took the photograph below earlier in the year. You’ll find this billboard on the east side of I-65 between Fern Valley and Okolona.

[goju]

26. Hmm, this is a tough one

Crime rates here in the US have gone steadily up since the 60's while gun ownership has decreased. We started to see a decline in crime rates only when Clinton took office, before the AWB was passed by the way.

Violent crime in the UK and Australia has been increasing sharply since the 90's and the homicide rate in the UK has has taken a huge leap. Oddly enough, the increases in their violent crime rates came after their draconian gun control measures were enacted. Im just not seeing any gun control measures being effective in reducing violent crimes. I wonder what their drug control measures are.....?

http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/failed/FailedExperiment.pdf
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

[MrBenchley]

27. Oh, no, not the phony British Blood Bath again

Don't RKBAers EVER get tired of telling this outright LIE?

Great Britain, with it's 60 million people, has less gun crime in a year than a medium sized US city like Birmingham, Alabama. And that's a fact.

[Tannhauser]

31. pants on fire

Bench, respectfully, if you're calling someone out for being a liar, could you not be courteous enough to cite your documentation? It's doesn't take that much more time to provide a reference. Thanks.

[MrBenchley]

34. Tell you what...

Why not go back through the threads and look for yourself....

After all, it's only been totally debunked 40 or 50 times this year that I know of.

[Tannhauser]

43. I have to be a donor to use the search function

I'm considering a donation, but I thought I'd test the waters and check the noise to information ratio first. Hrm.

[MrBenchley]

44. Tell you what, then....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=82964&mesg_id=82964

As you can see from the jeering in this post, there's no British bloodbath...and there's plenty of actual Brits you can ask....

[gatlingforme]

28. All pro control gun people have not said much about the victims of

murder, rape, assault, etc.. that your evil guns have been used for. Do you support the victims of the "evil guns" that kill people and ravage this nation to the extent as you say. ? These anti gun people on some of the websites have no problem telling others how evil guns are, yet, I do not see much support regarding the victims of such crime. If some of the people that support gun control can put 5 minutes of their time to helping the victims of their anti gun stuff, it would be a tremendous help and give a little more credit to the cause.

[Tannhauser]

30. MACHETES in the News 8/16/04

"It seems to be that machetes are the weapon of choice," said Detective Brian Kyes, spokesman for the Chelsea police. "In the past couple of years, we've confiscated at least 50 machetes that have been used in crimes in the city."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/08/16/city_gangs_turning_to_machetes_police_say/

[MrBenchley]

37. Well, you have to say this about the RKBA crowd...

They sure don't mind stale warmed-over crap....and they don't seem to have anything else....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=79554&mesg_id=79554

[FatSlob]

35. How about a little different version?

Guns do not, and have not ever caused crime. However, at times, the commission of certain crimes may be made easier when the criminal uses a gun in the commission of the crime.

[Vladimir]

36. Which is what he meant n/t

[slackmaster]

38. Yes, guns in the wrong hands are a big part of the crime problem

Let's start by enforcing the Gun Control Act of 1968 which prohibits possession of firearms by convicted felons, illegal drug users, (and as amended in 1994) those under restraining orders for domestic violence or convicted of certain violent misdemeanors, etc.

[library_max]

45. What about criminals who haven't been convicted yet?

What about perpetrators of domestic violence who are not currently under a restraining order? What about people who are not violent criminals but who make money reselling guns under the table to people who are?

You want to lock the barn door only after the horse is long gone - after the dead bodies have been added to the annual statistics. And it's not a question of innocent until proved guilty. Nobody is suggesting that people be arrested or tried before they have committed any crime, only that they shouldn't have access to a gun.

[jtjathomps]

46. Australia had more violent crime after outlawing firearms. /NT

[iverglas]

47. "NT"

NS.

No shit.


"Australia had more violent crime after outlawing firearms."

It rained after my cat took a pee.

Can you tell us what you might conclude from this?

Do you read entrails too?

[LibLabUK]

51. J'accuse!

"It rained after my cat took a pee."

I'm starting extradition proceedings, it's obvious that your cat was responsible for ruining our summer!



I'm also going to get a court order for your cat's urological records going back to 1990... I think we may have a serial offender here!

[UpsideDownFlag]

48. have you ever talked to an australian about this? or are you quoting

your favorite gun magazine?

[UpsideDownFlag]

49. and a word of advice, you'll wanna rack up a few more posts before

talking about the phony british bloodbath. you'll get flamed to hell around here for that kinda thing.

[UpsideDownFlag]

50. (it would also help if you enabled your profile)

[jtjathomps]

52. Thanks

I turned on my profile. Thanks.

I don't generally draw conclusions from 'talking to people' as you suggest.

The last information I gathered on the topic was from the August 6th version of the Winnipeg SUN. Australian armed robbery up 166% since the confiscation.

I will try to do as you suggest and gather some more posts on this account before I try and join the elite discussion panel here.

[library_max]

53. I think what JibJab is trying to say is, please support your assertions.

Do you have a link, for example?

We do know that the murder rate in Australia is less than a third of ours, per capita. Here is the link for that:

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm#murd

[UpsideDownFlag]

54. indeed. i didnt mean to sound snobby...

i was trying to warn him that in his previous condition, he was setting himself up for massive flamage.

[Vladimir]

55. Violent crime and armed robbery are two different things

as the article itself states:

No decrease in violent crime, armed robberies up by 166%.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Winnipeg/John_Gleeson/2004/08/06/570539.html

and one must prove causality here, which is considerably more difficult. For example, between 1997 and 1998 in Australia, the number of attempted murders rose 20%, but the number of murders fell 11%. One could argue, similary to what you are doing above, that taking those guns away made it harder for would be murderers to accomplish their task. I don't know if that is true, and I do not presume to put a causal link on it - I am just pointing out that statistics can almost always be made to mean whatever you want them to.

[iverglas]

56. The Winnipeg Sun???

And there you are, living in Atlanta. How odd.

Hmm. The Sun seems to have a large USAmerican readership:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2004/08/13/580350.html

Fri, August 13, 2004

'Thank God I live in America!'
U.S. readers condemn Aussies for charging security guard with murder
By John Gleeson

Last week's column on Australian security guard Karen Brown had an effect. It made many Americans who read it online proud as hell, and relieved as hell, to be Americans. And since it was picked up as a link on the National Rifle Association website, Brown's story -- she's been charged with murder for fatally shooting a robber after he bashed in her face -- triggered a like-minded reaction from just about every state of the union.

I suspect that the column in question was the one I cited here ... ah no, it was goju who cited it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=77120
so I guess the mystery of where *that* came from has now been solved. ;)

*I* was the one who pointed out what the column actually said:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=77120#77779
i.e. what the NRA and its audience are now objecting to -- the column you are now citing:
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Winnipeg/John_Gleeson/2004/08/06/570539.html
(The knuckle-dragging Suns can be a bit iconoclastic in their choice of opinion columnists; they also carry Eric Margolies, a well-known critic of US foreign policy.)

But our columnist here isn't of the brigher variety, obviously:

Guy W. Kleinert of Denver, Colo., wrote: "The examples England and Australia have set give us Americans all the more reason to embrace our individual right to keep and bear arms. They also have proven what history has shown -- that gun registration always leads to confiscation, and with unfavorable consequences."

Kleinert ends with a chilling quote: "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." Hitler said that in 1935.

Unfortunately, as we here all know, he didn't. Oh dear.

Any chance you have any more details regarding, and better source for, your allegations?