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TheRovingGourmet Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 05:46 PM
Original message
Combating Gang Violence
Isn't Christie a right-wing type? His name sounds fake.

This is a weird article but interesting.



STATEMENT


OF


CHRISTOPHER J. CHRISTIE
UNITED STATES ATTORNEY
DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY


BEFORE THE


COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE


CONCERNING

COMBATING GANG VIOLENCE


PRESENTED ON

SEPTEMBER 17, 2003


STATEMENT OF UNITED STATES ATTORNEY CHRISTOPHER J. CHRISTIE
District of New Jersey
Before the Senate Judiciary Committee
September 17, 2003

Concerning

Combating Gang Violence

Chairman Hatch, Senator Leahy, distinguished members of the Committee, I am Christopher Christie, the United States Attorney for the District of New Jersey. It is an honor to have the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the subject of criminal street gangs and violent drug organizations in the District of New Jersey.
1. Gang Structure and Gang Violence
In May of 2002, in response to steadily escalating gang violence in my District, I created a Violent Crime Unit to specifically target street gangs, violent narcotics enterprises and firearms trafficking networks. The Violent Crime Unit, which is staffed by ten experienced Assistant United States Attorneys, operates on the premise that the gangs of today constitute organized crime and must be prosecuted in the same manner and with the same statutes that have been used against more traditional organized crime in the past. Today’s gangs are structured and sophisticated criminal operations; they tend to have a clear hierarchy in the making of decisions and in the distribution of criminal proceeds. Moreover, they have considerable life-spans. Unfortunately, it has not been unusual for a gang or drug enterprise to control a certain neighborhood or area for ten years or more. Indeed, today’s gangs operate like businesses-albeit businesses unrestricted by any sense of right and wrong. They create and exploit a market, typically the narcotic drug market, they maintain and expand their territory, they recruit members to replace the ones they lose to violence or incarceration, and they are set up to withstand local prosecutions.
The structure of the typical gang or narcotics organization insulates the gang’s hierarchy from the types of prosecutions typically brought by local authorities. Lacking the resources to commence global prosecutions, local law enforcement entities generally conduct “buy and bust” operations which result in the arrests of the lowest level of the gang’s personnel. Gang leaders intentionally keep the “hand-to-hand sellers,” “look-outs” and “steerers,” who are typically arrested in such operations, unaware of information that could compromise the success of the organization. Additionally, gangs intentionally use their most fungible members - children and drug addicts - to fill these positions, which are highly vulnerable to prosecution. Thus, local authorities may be unable to build a case against the gang’s leadership, and even a local “sweep” arrest of ten or fifteen street-level sellers may not affect the gang’s ability to function.
Also,gang related murders and attempted murders present particular problems for local law enforcement. First, witnesses may be hesitant to testify against gang members for fear that local law enforcement is unable to ensure the witnesses’ safety. Second, gang murders are most often witnessed solely by accomplices. These accomplices obviously will not testify unless they are compelled by the prospect of being a defendant in a criminal case carrying a substantial prison term. Unlike the federal narcotics sentencing guidelines, sentences under New Jersey drug laws, for instance, rarely compel an accomplice to testify against his gang confederates. Additionally, a gang defendant is more likely to be detained following his arrest on federal charges than on state charges.
The structure and diversification of criminal activities of today’s gangs require an aggressive and comprehensive federal approach. It is not uncommon for a single gang to be involved in drug dealing, firearms trafficking, murder, robbery, money laundering and, more recently, mortgage fraud. Therefore, a team led by the U.S. Attorney’s Office and consisting of other federal agencies, such as the FBI, DEA, ATF, Main Justice and the Marshal’s Service, along with local authorities, such as the county prosecutor, sheriff and police, must be assembled, and information shared that may demonstrate broader criminal operations.
For the third straight year, the murder rate in Newark, New Jersey’s largest city, has risen, as has the number of handguns recovered by police officers. The rise in violence and unlawful gun possession corresponds directly to a substantial increase in documented gang activity beginning in 1999.
2. Investigation and Prosecution of Gang Members
Our office, using Project Safe Neighborhoods as our catalyst, has worked closely with the Prosecutor’s Offices of the District’s twenty-one counties, local police officials and our Project Safe Neighborhood research partner, Rutgers University, to identify areas of concentrated gang activity. Because federal resources should be reserved for those highly structured, large-scale, violent criminal enterprises, federal prosecutors exercise careful discretion in focusing their limited resources on the worst gangs. For instance, while a small crew of drug dealers in a certain location may be a pressing concern of local law enforcement, that activity would not be an appropriate target of an organized federal prosecution, or a coordinated state/federal investigation. However, our office routinely shares witnesses and information, generated from comprehensive gang investigations, with local prosecutor’s offices to assist them with pending state homicides and other serious violent crimes. Similarly, our office has attempted to coordinate major gang prosecutions with local county officials.
In the District of New Jersey today, we have a wide variety of gangs and violent drug organizations. We have both national gangs and local drug organizations, which tend to identify with the street or neighborhood they come from. Currently, my office is prosecuting several gang and drug enterprise cases that are typical of the types of criminal organizations operating today in New Jersey. We have successfully prosecuted, or are currently prosecuting, members of the following gangs: (1) Van Nostrand Soldiers Out Politicking (VSOP), Jersey City, N.J.; (2) Lex Mob, Jersey City, N.J.; (3) Elvis Irizarry Crew, Jersey City, N.J.; (4) Grape Street/Rolling 60s Crips, Irvington, N.J.; (5) Double “ii” Bloods, East Orange, N.J.; (6) James Bond Gang, multiple New Jersey and New York counties; (7) Gangster Killer Bloods set of the Bloods, East Orange, N.J; (8) Latin Kings, multiple counties in New Jersey; (9) Fukkianese Armed Robbery Crew, multiple counties in New Jersey. It is important to note that some of the gangs I just mentioned operate not only in New Jersey’s cities, but in its affluent suburbs, as well. Indeed, the gang problem is spreading to every corner of New Jersey.
Although my office is investigating and prosecuting a large number of gang cases, I would like to discuss a few in more detail.
LEX MOB
My office is prosecuting 28 members of a violent Jersey City narcotics distribution organization called Lex Mob. Lex Mob is the prototypical large-scale, successful narcotics business found in many urban areas across the country. In 1992, the group took over a neighborhood in Jersey City by killing the previously-existing dealers. Over the next ten years, it increased its territory, again by intimidating or killing its rivals.
At any given time, the organization employed between 20 to 30 street sellers. The number of active sellers doubled in the mid-afternoon to sell cocaine to the teenage children walking home from school. The enterprise was highly structured. The street sellers answered to one of between five and ten Lieutenants, who provided the sellers with bags of one hundred vials of packaged cocaine, and who collected the proceeds from the sellers throughout the day. The perimeter of Lex Mob’s territory was guarded by sentinels on the roof-tops and the streets, who communicated with each other and with the sellers by means of walkie-talkies.

One cooperator estimated that the organization was taking in close to one million dollars per week in cocaine sales. Much of this drug money was laundered and used to purchase expensive cars and houses, as well as to bail out arrested gang members. In one state murder case, the bail for eight Lex Mob members, which totaled four million dollars, was paid in a matter of days. It is worth noting that each of the twenty-eight Lex Mob members charged federally were detained pending trial.
Lex Mob protected its business with force. If rival sellers dared to sell cocaine in its territory, Lex Mob hit men shot them.
Van Nostrand Soldiers Out Politicking
My office has recently convicted the leaders and members of a highly successful commercial armed robbery crew called Van Nostrand Soldiers Out Politicking, or VSOP. Hailing from Van Nostrand Avenue in Jersey City, members of this prolific criminal group committed five armed bank robberies, and over twenty armed commercial robberies of check-cashing establishments, restaurants, drug stores and other businesses in northern New Jersey between 1996 and 2001.

An active VSOP member became an informant and made consensual tape recordings of his fellow gang members over a two month period. My office, in conjunction with the FBI, convicted eight VSOP members of serious federal crimes, including RICO, Murder, Hobbs Act Robbery, Bank Robbery and Use of a Firearm During and In Relation to Violent Crimes. The greatest challenge in the case was to develop the evidence necessary to show that VSOP was a criminal enterprise, with a sufficient leadership structure, to allow use of the RICO statutes. Unlike large-scale narcotics enterprises, such as Lex Mob, armed robbery crews tend to be smaller and less structured. This makes it difficult, though not impossible, to prosecute groups of this type under the RICO statutes. When use of RICO is appropriate, we coordinate its use with Main Justice, and use it as an effective tool against these criminal enterprises.
Double “II” Bloods
The Double “II” Bloods are a particularly ruthless Bloods set from East Orange, New Jersey. Named for both their beginnings in Inglewood California and their home in East Orange, or what they call Illtown, New Jersey, the Double IIs are a prime example of how a disparate group of street thugs can fashion themselves into an organized criminal enterprise through a strict set of rules and brutal discipline. Using the resources given to us under Project Safe Neighborhoods, we worked with our PSN research partner, Rutgers University, to identify and target the Double II Bloods as the largest and most violent street gang in New Jersey. Our office has charged seven members and associates of this gang with drug conspiracy and using firearms in furtherance of drug trafficking.
The hierarchy of the Double II Bloods is as follows:
101- Superior - The 101 calls the meetings and gives the orders to do acts of violence. He also runs the every day activities of the gang
102- Second in Command or Two Star General: if anything happens to the 101 - can call meetings and give orders to do acts of violence
103- Minister of Defense - The 103 is in charge of getting guns, carrying out discipline, and conveying orders of violence from 101 or 102 to the gang.
1- Minister of Information: The 104 is in charge of making sure everyone has and knows the gang’s history, codes, and rules. He is also charged with knowing what acts of violence have been carried out, what threats have been made against the gang and what vendettas against the gang may be looming.
105 - Five Star General - The 105 is on par with the 101 and 102 and can call meetings and give orders to do acts of violence. This status position is an honorary one; the 105 does not run the every day activities of gang.
106 - Lieutenant - foot soldiers, follow orders
107 - Second Lieutenant - foot soldiers, follow orders
108 - Little Homie - foot soldiers, follow orders
109 - Little Homie - foot soldiers, follow orders
Meetings must be attended by all members. During the meetings, each member contributes $31 into a fund that is used to bail out Double IIs who have been arrested and to purchase guns for the gang’s use and protection. All members are charged with knowing the rules and code of conduct, which are set forth in written form and are to be committed to memory.
Member initiations also occur during the weekly meeting. Members “come home” or join the Double IIs in one of several ways. Most common is for a member to get his or her “31" and to be “jumped in.” This consists of the individual being beaten by a group of Double IIs for 31 seconds, and sometimes for several repeated sessions of 31 seconds. You may ask why the number 31? We have learned that this is because there are 31 rules in the Bloods Code of Conduct and that Rule number 31 is “I will have love for my Bloods.” The payment of the $31 is a sign of that love. The beating for 31 seconds is to reinforce the discipline of the 31 rules in the Code of Conduct.
Issues are voted on and disputes are discussed and resolved during meetings. The leadership may give an order that some act of violence be carried out against rival gang members in retaliation for disputes, which are often prompted by the gang’s drug trafficking. Orders to discipline gang members are also given out during the meetings. If a member of the gang is suspected of cooperating with law enforcement, he or she is labeled “food,” which authorizes the use of force against the member. As recently as this month, one member suspected of cooperating was brutally slashed in the face with a razor in a prison commons area.
The lifeline of the Double II Bloods is heroin trafficking. The members of the gang sell the same brands, which insures the “quality” of the heroin. At one point, the number of Double IIs involved in heroin sales became so numerous that they instituted “shift work,” which ensured that certain members sold heroin only at certain times and that too many dealers were not out on the block at one time. The rich heroin demand in East Orange made it possible for many members to make thousands of dollars per week on a few square blocks.
In addition to trafficking narcotics, members of the Double II Bloods are also involved in firearms trafficking. As federal agents discovered, the Double II Bloods were purchasing guns en masse from an out of state intermediary, who used straw purchasers to buy large quantities of guns from one particular gun store in another state. The interstate nature of the gun trade, especially into a state like New Jersey, cannot be understated. Our office is working closely with ATF to develop investigations that go after these out-of-state gun dealers who are a pipeline of weapons into New Jersey through gangs like the Bloods. Until federal agents intervened in this case and cut off the gun supply, the gang had sought to begin supplying other neighboring Blood sets with firearms.
The Double IIs are highly structured, methodically disciplined and extremely violent. Our investigation of them attributes numerous shootings and countless other acts of violence to this violent organization.
Comprehensive federal prosecution of street gangs is a necessity. It is one of the top local priorities I identified when I took office in January of 2002. It is, in my opinion, the new organized crime in the United States, an organized crime that destroys families, corrupts our children and lays waste to neighborhoods in our most vulnerable communities. We must mount a fight comparable to the fight against La Cosa Nostra in past decades if we expect to have the same success. We in New Jersey are engaging in the initial battle of this war against gang violence, and we hope our victories will lead to more successes.
I thank you for this opportunity to discuss this important issue and I would be happy to answer any questions you may have of me.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, more gun laws would......?
Edited on Thu Aug-19-04 07:48 PM by goju
.....uh, what would they do again? Oh yeah, more gun laws would prevent criminals from breaking the gun laws. :crazy:
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Funny article...looks more like a legal brief....
And yeah, Christie's a Republican political hack....
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. The war on drugs is destroying our country
And no one cares.
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TheRovingGourmet Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I wonder, if you buy Crips brand heroin and it does not meet
your standards, can you return it? Can you sue? Are the Crips subject to the truth in advertising laws?

:)
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. It does make you wonder
why our "concerned" anti gunners invest so much time trying to taking away our rights yet, never mention the motivation behind so much of the violence and death they regurgitate every day.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Really, goju?
Is that what you wonder?

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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. trying to taking away our rights?
and the number of rights you've lost are?
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I said...
that the anti gunners were "trying" to take our rights. They havent been completely successful, but they are relentless and well-trained in the use of propaganda. The AWB for instance, has taken away my "right" to buy a newly manufactured weapon with a 30 round clip and a folding stock (a weapon which has a reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia by the way.)

Let the anti gunners continue to spread their fear mongering and propaganda, and it wont be long before asscroft will be knocking on our door with his "gun registration list" in hand. NO thanks!
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. This would be the Asscroft
who recently became the first Attorney General ever to interpret the 2nd Amendment outside the context of a militia? That is just too too funny...
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Yep
the very same asscroft who continually violates a good chunk of our constitution...you know, like the 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th? Did you really believe the power hungry "constitutional controllers" would stop short of the 2nd? :eyes:

Bring gun control to the table this November and the controllers will have everything they want. "Constitutional controllers" in-charge (calling mr asscroft), gun legislation spewing faster than the propaganda behind it, and every frightened, ignorant soccer mom and miserable urbanite thinking that if the next "Weapons Ban" doesnt pass, blood will fill the streets.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Too fucking funny....
So the only reason NRA life member AshKKKroft is not confiscating guns is because nobody's told him gun control is an issue?

Meanwhile, blood already does fill the streets....with Americans shot at a rate seen in third world countries...

Tell us, goju, how many more Americans do you want to see shot?

"every frightened, ignorant soccer mom and miserable urbanite"
Usually called Americans...or "liberals and moderates"
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. So let me get this straight
of all the legislators in the states, it is Mr. Asscroft who frightens you? The one who has made a point, while as you say violating every other amendment out there, of interpreting the 2nd in accordance to "The Gospel as preached by the NRA"? It beggars belief. Asscroft is serving his masters goju, and his masters make lots of money off weapons sales.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Evidently in the parallel universe
in which Senate testimony is an "article," there's another John Ashcroft who advocates gun control and is an atheist....
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. He's not a legislator
right? Let me help you "get it straight".

Who has the authority to "take" rights as he see's fit?

Who is snooping into our library habits, internet habits, and email?

Who is circumventing due process?

Who is pushing for greater lattitude in "surveillance" measures?

Who is preventing Gitmo prisoners from access to legal counsel?

Who is taking more "rights" away from citizens today than anyone ever has?

If you answered asscroft, you would correct. Now I ask you, SHOULD I trust him with the 2nd also? Should I smile and pretend everything is OK?

Dont fool yourself into believing that his 2nd amd. rhetoric is anything more than simply a political calculation. If you dont recognize asscroft and this entire administration's creative use of the courts and their powers for political gain, there is no hope for you. EVERYTHING is on the table and everything is subject to their whims or political panderings. All it would take is a terrorist "threat" and a few urban soccer moms to demolish the 2nd amd. ala Patriot Act.

We are ALL threats to them, and dont think for a second the rights YOU have today will be there tomorrow if you dont start seeing them for who they are. Give me 74 more days and I wont be so paranoid. But I have no idea why you ARENT concerned right now?
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Because I recognise the fact
that Asscroft and Bush serve the US ruling class, and that this ruling class has a very very vested interest in selling lots and lots of guns to its citizenry. And that interest is not going to go away any time soon....
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Oh really now?
And where by chance do you come by THAT notion?
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Depends on the notion
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 03:03 PM by Vladimir
but I doubt you are going to dipute that gun companies sell lots of guns, or that they have a vested interest in selling more guns, or that they will attempt to get people elected who will further this agenda. Companies don't make campaign donations because GWB has pretty eyes or a cute arse you know. As to why Asscroft and this administration... well gee, I don't know. Maybe its the way the NRA worships the ground he walks on...
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. You got it right
"but I doubt you are going to dipute that gun companies sell lots of guns, or that they have a vested interest in selling more guns, or that they will attempt to get people elected who will further this agenda. Companies don't make campaign donations because GWB has pretty eyes or a cute arse you know. "

No, I guess I wont dispute that if what you are saying is that gun owners make a difference in a campaign. Would that be accurate? Or does the NRA spend all those millions defending free speech?

I just cant imagine that everyone buying all those guns are racist, nazi, right wing, fuckwits. Maybe you can though. Or maybe you'd just rather worship the fools who put forth that notion?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Hahahahahaha....
"does the NRA spend all those millions defending free speech"
In fact, they pissed away millions trying to overturn campaign finance reform...trying vainly to pretend that their blood money was "free speech." And they lost.

"Costly legal, legislative and political battles in the past decade have left the National Rifle Association with a $100 million deficit, reopening a bitter debate within the group about how it manages its money.
In the past decade, the group's efforts have helped Republicans win the White House and Congress and led to laws in more than 30 states banning lawsuits against gun manufacturers. In the past year, the NRA helped pay for a losing legal battle against campaign-finance legislation, which the U.S. Supreme Court upheld this month."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/7543030.htm

"I just cant imagine that everyone buying all those guns are racist, nazi, right wing, fuckwits."
Nope, those are the sort of scumbags the gun lobby supports.....like your buddy AshKKKroft....

Of course, a large chunk of those who do buy guns ARE racist right wing fuckwits...as a glance at any on-line gunowner's forum will confirm.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Good missing of the point
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 03:25 PM by Vladimir
If you can show me where I called everyone buying guns:

"racist, nazi, right wing, fuckwits"

I would be obliged.

Lets try this again. Gun companies (note to reader, a company and its customers are not the same thing) have a vested interest in seeing politicians elected who will allow them to increase their profits. By selling guns. So when they give GWB and Asscroft money, they expect something in return. Like, maybe, a reinterpretation of the 2nd amendment? They would surely love that. And gee whizz, who gave them that? Why it was Mr. AssKKKroft, of course. Now I'll grant you that (thankfully) his musings do not have the force of law. But they surely point us in which direction this administration wants to go...
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. No, I think you ARE missing the point
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 03:45 PM by goju
Who said 4 years ago they wouldnt take part in nation building? Who claimed to be "suspect" of any government intrusions into privacy? Who forged the patriot act based on fear? Who is flip flopping on all those "principles" they sold to the american public? But YOU trust them?

You seem to understand that dollars buys votes but, you dont seem to understand where those dollars come from or that fear buys more votes than dollars ever could. How the hell do you think they got the PA passed in the first place? The gun lobby? Holy smokes, do you HONESTLY think that they wouldnt flip flop on this ONE issue?????

"Lets try this again. Gun companies (note to reader, a company and its customers are not the same thing) have a vested interest in seeing politicians elected who will allow them to increase their profits"

Yes, lets do TRY. I have no idea what your note to reader means. Did you read my post?

"So when they give GWB and Asscroft money, they expect something in return. Like, maybe, a reinterpretation of the 2nd amendment?"

Yes, and I wonder why they give so much money every year? Did someone say votes? Again I wonder, who ARE all those people buying ALL those guns?

"But they surely point us in which direction this administration wants to go..."

Yep, they surely do. I guess you think they will stop after destroying only half the constitution huh?. The rest, well what could be gained by targeting that? Attention urban soccer moms....

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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. They haven't flip-flopped
on one single issue. They have broke election promises, but that is different. Their record when in power on this point is pretty consistent...
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Yeah, lol
wingers are well known for creating huge new government bureaucracies with the sole purpose of invading privacy. Please!
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Indeed they are
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 03:58 PM by Vladimir
what you are mistaken in is this notion that they ever believed in rights in the first place. What they believe in, to quote a well known entertainer, is the power of the dollar. As for privacy - they have been invading it for years. Its just that its mostly involved homos, pinkos, blackos, islamos, gringos...
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Well, in closing
Im MORE worried about asscroft taking away my guns than anyone. Thats just how I see it. I hope it does not come to be an issue.

We have wasted our time fighting over asscroft and not nearly enough time fighting over something important, like magazine capacities :)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Goju is trying desperately to pretend
that the odious AshKKKroft is going to join forces with Dianne Feinstein to seize guns from those millions of moderate and liberal gun buyers he also wants to pretend are out there...
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. and then there are other facts

Like how the "war on drugs" is a figment of some deluded folks' imagination, there being no war on drugs whatsoever, just a war on a bunch of exploited and oppressed people in the US and elsewhere ... and we all know what wars are good for sales of ... especially when you don't particularly care which side you're trading with since you know your side is pretty certainly going to come out on top no matter what anyhow ...

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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Come now
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 05:12 PM by goju
Show me how the gun industry is fueling the drug war, I dare ya. I can certainly show you how drugs are a huge factor in gun deaths, that much is crystal clear. But I dont think, despite your "facts", that we can demonstrate the gun industry's complicity in promoting drug war violence. Or was that mere hype & fear based propaganda aimed at the ignorant, which regularly passes for "fact" by the "constitutional control" crowd?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. my dawg
Show me how the gun industry is fueling the drug war, I dare ya.

Our collective memory is just so short and ... dim, is it?

This one was just made to measure, I see:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=44283#44843

The right wing can delude a lot of USAmericans with that crap, but the rest of the world tends to see it for what it is.

So, who writes the script for "John R. Bolton, Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security"?

http://www.state.gov/t/us/rm/janjuly/4038.htm

Small arms and light weapons, in our understanding, are the strictly military arms -- automatic rifles, machine guns, shoulder-fired missile and rocket systems, light mortars -- that are contributing to continued violence and suffering in regions of conflict around the world. We separate these military arms from firearms such as hunting rifles and pistols, which are commonly owned and used by citizens in many countries. As U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft has said, "just as the First and Fourth Amendments secure individual rights of speech and security respectively, the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms." The United States believes that the responsible use of firearms is a legitimate aspect of national life. Like many countries, the United States has a cultural tradition of hunting and sport shooting. We, therefore, do not begin with the presumption that all small arms and light weapons are the same or that they are all problematic. It is the illicit trade in military small arms and light weapons that we are gathered here to address and that should properly concern us.
Thank you, Dubya. From all the civilians and children killed around the world by small arms trafficked into their countries and used against them.

http://www.fpif.org/commentary/0108arms_body.html

They may be called small arms, but they're big business. In Latin America, the problem of small arms trafficking extends from Mexico, where guns smuggled from the United States fetch prices three to five times higher on the black market than their original cost, to Colombia, currently embroiled in a long running civil conflict, to Brazil, which has one of the highest gun homicide rates in the world.

... At the UN conference, the United States opposed any language in the program of action that prevented the sale of arms to non-state actors. John R. Bolton, U.S. undersecretary of state for arms control and international security affairs, flatly said that the United States could not be part of an agreement that "would preclude assistance to an oppressed non-state group defending itself from a genocidal government." While the United States wants to keep the option open to aid insurgents battling oppressive regimes around the world, this policy can adversely affect legitimate governments battling insurgencies.

The United States must also acknowledge its role in global arms trafficking. The United States is the largest producer of small arms in the world, with more than half of the world's producers based in the United States. Many arms traffickers buy relatively inexpensive firearms in the United States and resell them on the black market abroad because the penalties are relatively light compared with the penalties for smuggling drugs--and the profit margin is high. Arms brokers bypass regulatory norms and facilitate weapons transfers from states to non-state actors and buyers who could not otherwise obtain them.

The United States chooses to ignore the extent of this dynamic and sees any effort to address the matter as potential infringement on the rights of U.S. citizens to own firearms. At the UN conference, Bolton assured that "the United States will not join consensus on a final document that contains measures contrary to our constitutional right to keep and bear arms."

... In pandering to the gun lobby, the Bush administration showed what little regard it has for strengthening international efforts to deal with trafficking in small arms. ...
It's just bleeding hilarious to see anyone whine that the President and his boys do not support individual freedom, and then jump on the their bandwagon when it comes to all this idiot noise about the poor downtrodden foreign masses not being able to rise up against their oppressors if someone in the USofA doesn't make a hefty profit selling everybody in sight weapons.

I mean, you didn't imagine that I thought that the "drug war" didn't affect anybody outside your borders, did you?

But I dont think, despite your "facts", that we can demonstrate the gun industry's complicity in promoting drug war violence.

If ya wanna be a progressive, I think you're going to have to rethink some stuff.

Or was that mere hype & fear based propaganda aimed at the ignorant, which regularly passes for "fact" by the "constitutional control" crowd?

And there you sit, with yet another dumb unfounded allegation in the form of a pseudoquestion dribbling from your lips, eh?

Lemme help you out a little more as long as we're here. This one seems to be tailor made too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=37818

http://www.fpif.org/commentary/0108arms_body.html

... Exporting ideology ... exporting death.

In the Americas, the consequences of ambivalence could be substantial. When peace comes to Colombia, thousands if not millions of small arms and light weapons--many of U.S. origin--will need to be decommissioned before they filter throughout the region and overseas.

In pandering to the gun lobby, the Bush administration showed what little regard it has for strengthening international efforts to deal with trafficking in small arms. ...
Anybody who does give a damn might want to do a search for "impact of armed conflict on children" "small arms". I get over a thousand results. One of the best places to start is the report by Graca Machel (she is now married to Nelson Mandela and has devoted much of her efforts to assisting children who have lost their childhoods to armed conflict):

1. Millions of children are caught up in conflicts in which they are not merely bystanders, but targets. Some fall victim to a general onslaught against civilians; others die as part of a calculated genocide. Still other children suffer the effects of sexual violence or the multiple deprivations of armed conflict that expose them to hunger or disease. Just as shocking, thousands of young people are cynically exploited as combatants. ...

27. Involving children as soldiers has been made easier by the proliferation of inexpensive light weapons. Previously, the more dangerous weapons were either heavy or complex, but these guns are so light that children can use them and so simple that they can be stripped and reassembled by a child of 10. The international arms trade has made assault rifles cheap and widely available so the poorest communities now have access to deadly weapons capable of transforming any local conflict into a bloody slaughter. In Uganda, an AK-47 automatic machine gun can be purchased for the cost of a chicken and, in northern Kenya, it can be bought for the price of a goat.
The report in question is here

And now, may I point out that you asked? And really, one just does not say things like Show me how the gun industry is fueling the drug war, I dare ya, and make insinuations that amount to thinly veiled allegations of untruthfulness, and then whine about all the horrible great big gobs of stuff one is shown when one is shown what one asked to be shown, I'd have to say. Wouldn't you agree?

And you can feel quite free to disregard anything I quoted that appears to you to consist of "opinion"; the facts are quite adequate to make my point.

The devastation of land and lives that is "the drug war" in the southern part of our hemisphere would not be happening were it not for the helpful efforts of the firearms industry.

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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Hardly unexpected
3 pages of .... nothing to do with the gun industry. But I guess you dont mind equating the bush administration with the gun industry eh? Thats what passes for "facts" I guess? A few lines from a "research associate" in a Montreal college and you're sold huh? Tough standards you have there :eyes: How bout you show us now how Ford and Chevy are complicit in the drug war, unless those criminal drug dealers are walking everywhere?

"Arms brokers bypass regulatory norms and facilitate weapons transfers from states to non-state actors and buyers who could not otherwise obtain them."

We are back to the same ole crap. Criminals are criminals, here or there. Or is it different elsewhere by your "standards"?

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:47 AM
Original message
do your own research, chum
You got google, right?

Ask it for "small arms" trafficking. Narrow it a bit by asking it for "small arms" trafficking -diamond industry.

Normal people in the real world just don't demand that other people write books for them (and then complain about having books written for them, let us not forget).

If normal people in the real world wish to engage in a discussion of an issue with other people, they understand that the other people expect them to be somewhat knowledgeable about the issue in question, or said other people really aren't going to waste their time.

People who want to learn everything that other people know about something generally enrol in courses where they can be taught and have their research directed - and pay for the services. A discussion does not consist of Person A, who knows nothing, demanding that Person B prove the truth of everything that Person B knows.

Me, when I'm accosted by someone on the internet demanding to know what I know, I generally head for my bookmarks and produce whatever is convenient. They want more, they're going to have to make it worth my while. And that's something you have yet to do.

A few lines from a "research associate" in a Montreal college and you're sold huh?

Perhaps you could tell me whom and what you're talking about. I assume it wasn't Graça Machel (I will tentatively assume that you know who she is ... since I briefly identified her ... but I confidently assume that you didn't click on the link to her Report to the Secretary-General of the United Nations). I assume that you're referring to a university ("colleges", in Canada among other places, are not degree-granting academic institutions), but you're going to have to do a little better there.

Perhaps you could also explain where you get the notion that you purport to have, that I base what I say on said "few lines" or on anything else I might offer you in particular. I don't believe that I said this, or said anything that would suggest it. Someone who demands proof of what another person knows and then fixes on something that s/he is offered that indicates that other people know the same thing -- which is what this did -- as proof of the fact that said other person don't know shit really just ends up looking foolish.

Hey, I just tried something even quicker and easier. Ask google for "arms industry" "war on drugs" (gee golly gosh, who would have thunk of that??).

This one looks entertaining for starters -- yeah, it's just from some other "college", but this one's a proper USAmerican one:
http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxx/2000.10.06/opinion/p10colombianaid.html
When I say "starters", you see, what I mean is that you find what interests you there, and then go back to good old google and look for some more about it.

Picking something pretty much at random ...
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/updates/gr7.html
(That's 1999, but hey, the "war on drugs" didn't start yesterday ... and is not an entirely Republican phenomenon. And it has some nice facts and figures for you. Emphases added.)

Arms Sales Update:

Colombia Update

The recent crash of a U.S. RC-7B intelligence gathering aircraft in the southern region of Colombia, which killed 5 American soldiers and 2 Colombian military officers, is a telling symbol of increased U.S. involvement in the war against the rebels. Aid to Colombia has skyrocketed in the last year with funding reaching $289 million, making Colombia the largest recipient of military aid after Israel and Egypt.

The aid - ostensibly to go to counter narcotics efforts - is now more openly being diverted to fight the rebels. As Drug Czar Barry McCaffrey recently stated, it is "silly at this point" to differentiate between counter narcotics and counterinsurgency operations. In Colombia, the U.S. provides training to military officers and drug enforcement police and is in the process of setting up a 1,000 man Anti-Narcotics Battalion to be deployed later this year. McCaffrey is also urging Congress to provide Colombia and its neighboring drug producing countries with an additional $1 billion in "emergency assistance."

All of these actions are deeply troubling. A brief look at history should remind us that the militarization of the war on drugs has been a miserable failure. In a recent publication from the Washington Office on Latin America, "U.S. International Drug Control Policy: A Guide for Citizen Action," they point out that the U.S. support for Latin American militaries and police forces is high, with more than $700 million going to Latin America in FY1999 for the 'war on drugs'. And despite the more than $25 billion spent since the mid-1980s on the drug war, production, trafficking and consumption have increased. WOLA goes on to note that the "Militarized anti-drug efforts threaten to strengthen abusive security forces just as fledgling civilian democracies seek to rein them in, put millions of dollars worth of equipment and training into the hands of human rights violators, and embroil our country in Colombia's brutal counterinsurgency war." See the resource section (below) for details on how to get access to WOLA's analysis.
There's this, there, too:
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawrep.html
(1995: Republican days -- Bush I is the one being referred to. Emphases added.)

The Bush Administration's initiative to utilize military assistance to help Andean nations fight the "war on drugs" has led to a number of documented instances of the use (and abuse) of U.S.-supplied weaponry in conflicts having little or nothing to do with the problem of drug interdiction. As the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA) noted in its 1991 report, Clear and Present Dangers: The U.S. Military and the War on Drugs in the Andes, under the impetus of the Bush policy "the Andean region has supplanted Central America as the main locus of U.S. military activity in the hemisphere." In the first three years of the 1990s, Colombia, Peru, and Bolivia were slated to receive more U.S. military assistance than all of Central America combined, with the rationale of providing equipment and training that could be used to fight drug trafficking in those countries. Despite rhetoric about shifting its emphasis toward reducing demand for drugs in the United States, the Clinton Administration has carried on the Bush policy of providing substantial amounts of military assistance to Andean, Central American, and Caribbean nations for use in anti-narcotics efforts.

I know I shouldn't be surprised at a USAmerican thinking that the "war on drugs" (or anything else) is all about the US and USAmericans ... or is at all about drugs ... but I am unceasingly surprised at self-described progressive USAmericans holding these notions.


Who the bloody hell do you think is profiting from all this in the US? The WalMart greeters and McDonalds burger flippers?

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. "simply a political calculation"
AshKKKroft has spent his entire wretched career catering to the sort of bigoted white fuckwits who spout "gun rights" at the drop of a hat...he's not going to stop now.

"We are ALL threats to them"
Not even close to true...he's been downplaying or ignoring right wing violence and terrorism since day one....as neiwert and others have pointed out over and over again....


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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
7. All drugs should be legalised
and their sale tightly controlled and taxed. State gets money, consenting adults get their fix, drug dealers get a job.
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TheRovingGourmet Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. But then the municipalities would not get the off-budget
proceeds from all those yummy asset forfeitures! :) :) :)
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. LOL
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. You understand that if you legalize drugs
but control their sale too tightly and tax them too highly that nothing will change, right?
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Obviously
but if you seel them for less than street value - and this should not be hard, even with ample taxes - you win. The controls would vary from drug to drug - something like cannabis should probably be available for sale in the manner of tobacco, heroin on the other hand you will probably want to sell only at pharmacies.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
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