Bowling lied about guns and the NRA

[dustind]

I found a website that showed how Michael Moore lied about the NRA scheduling events, and how Moore chopped Heston's speech apart to make it sound like he was saying something he did not. Its funny how Heston was able to change clothes half way through a speech... :eyes:

The weapons of mass destruction factory was actually for launching satellites into orbit.

The biggest one is how he lied and mislead people about the crime difference between America and other countries. ie 11,112 vs about 100 gun deaths.

He also said that the NRA was scheduling major meetings after tragedies, a complete lie.

The entire film seems to be one big lie after another.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

[bahrbearian]

1. Yeah, I thought it was a great movie too !

[CO Liberal]

2. I Went To That Page

And it sounded like someone with an axe to grind. So I went to the guy's hoem page, and found a lot of interestin stuff. Including the following (emphasis mine):

I've done some scribbling on the 1993 tragedy at Waco, and recently released a book on the Waco incident and the interesting FLIR tapes made there. Try my Waco page. For previews of the book, click here. The Waco matter and homepage did result in a bit of press coverage--click on the following for coverage in the New York Times, and the Arizona Republic. I appeared on Nightline against an FBI spokesman, pulled out written proof of agency perjury.... and a board at FreeRepublic carried the discussion as the show aired. I did okay--the comments note of the FBI representative that "This spokesman is dying...really dying... he's miserable" and "They have that lying FBI negotiator (Gage or Sage) and he is treading water," and "This is devastating stuff." A rough transcript is online: click here.

Bottom line? This is an attorney who specializes in First Amendment and Second Amendment cases, is convinced of a conspiracy behind the Waco incident, and is proud of the coverage he's received at Free Republic. Not exactly what I would consider a good source of unbiased information for a progressive site such as DU.

[dustind]

6. I will check out the waco thing, but...

It is moot when you find provable lies, and lots of them. It does not matter how you interpret some things, Moore said things which are 100% untrue, not just misleading, unobjective or biased, but down right lied.

Sorry I did not bother to check is main page, but when I read through his article I did not se any signs of wingnuttery. I also have a copy of the film at my house so I double checked a lot of this, the guy with the website is not lieing.

[dustind]

10. he was refering to the helicopter...

that was shooting people when they surrendered and the FBI destroyed the tape. They also "lost" the front door that proved they opened fire first, he did not mention that but it fits with the infared video, and the rest. The goverment covered up evidence of more than a few things. I have not read his book, nor do I intend to, but he does not seem to see any conspiracy other than what is known.

I did not see any right winged stuff, other than one joke about Bill, but he also had a joke about Bush and Dick.

I did not see any evidence of an ax to grind, not that it matter when talking almost 100% facts not opinion.

[Scaramouche]

3. I take it you didn't like the documentary...

because it wasn't objective enough for you.

There is no such thing as an objective view when using filem/video. Editing, which happens once the film is in the can, is always subjective. It's call point of view.

However, Moore's thesis that America is more violent than other countries is quite unassailable.

Or do you disagree?

[dustind]

5. it was funny but

What about the part where he says that the NRA held a meeting 48 hours after a school shooting. In reality it was refering to a Clinton press confrence but Moore had the text move to the right before you could read it. That is a deliberate lie, its not about being objective its about outright lies.

I am not convinced America is more violent, I am just trying to prove the guy lied, not about being objective or bias, but outright lies.

[RandomKoolzip]

4. Uh, sorry, but it was both obvious and unimportant to most

sentient beings who viewed the film that Heston's speech was edited. I mean, of course, there's a few frames of non-Heston images between the two sections of speech. At no time during this part of the movie did I say, "Oh, my God, Michael Moore is punfairly painting Charleton Heston as a boner-for-bullets gun nut! And HE CAN EDIT FILM!! Gasp!" Splicing two parts of film together, using a three second bumper between them, is not exactly playing fast and loose with the truth. Moore never said that he was presenting an unexpurgated version of Mr. Heston's speech.

The factory depicted in the interview sections was not just used to send satellites into orbit, but to also send weapons and rockets into the air and manufacture said weapons. The economy of Littleton is based around this plant.

I've seen this guy's website, too, and he's a frothing right-winger and not worthy of my time or yours. I'm alerting the admins; you don't need to be posting this garbage at our website...or did you not read the rules for posting when you registered?

[dustind]

7. you do not like the fact that...

Moore lied and I am trying to prove it, sorry if someone's views disagree with ours, but you had to dig to find that, I fail to see how it is relevant. Anyway sorry, I did not know, my bad.

I disagree that it was obvious to most, many people have believed a lot of things in that video, that is why I started searching the web, that website was the best I found.

I still did not find any right winged stuff, but I have not read it all, I just frantically searched when I read what you posted. How does defending the second make someone right winged? Sure many on the right seem to protect the 2nd(and forget the rest), but that alone does not show bias, maybe the freeper thing does, if I am wrong sorry, I did not know.

I will look into that plant, are you sure they were not converting weapons into satellite launchers?

[RandomKoolzip]

11. My problem with this dude's interpretation of Bowling for Columbine is

that he seizes on any and all viewpoints Moore has and pillories him on his leftism using the ad hominem rubric of "lying." It's obvious that his problem is not with Moore's "lying," but with his leftism, just like how Clinton was roasted publicly and investigated like a defendant in a war tribunal for his "lying" by the right, when really what their target was was Clinton's democratic leanings. They just raised the specter of "not telling the truth" in order to get a cloven hoof in the door.

Michael Moore has an editor and he uses him to prove his hypothesis. This is the same tactic Thomas Paine used. It's not his job to portray the right wing's idiocy in a positive light. Whether that's telling a lie or not I guess depends on your defintion of "lying." Frankly, to me, it seems that Moore did a great job of allowing the right to hoist themselves on their own petard without the aid of "tricky" editing.

Again, what the hell are you doing on DU posting this nonsense? Free Republic will be more than happy to allow you to slag the left all you want under the cover of "Telling the truth"...they'd love this thread, honestly....provided of course that I'm not "lying." Because I could be. You'd never know, I have the left so duped, just like Hillary....

Damn that Michael Moore and damn the damned First Amendment!! Your cold dead fingers+ my crotch, pal.

[dustind]

13. wow

Do you care about the truth? You seem pretty eager to label me and that guy as being right winged, I do not know about him, but I am not going to take that.

Clinton was a completely different thing, his private life is his, the right had nothing against him so they drug out some irrelevant act. That is all they had on him and they hated that he was a good president. Moore is nothing like him, he is an emotional shock jock, the reason I am against him is due to his lying about guns and the NRA. I am pro RKBA lies like the ones in his film do not help my cause. That is my motive, nothing more or less.

I also never will stand for lying, even if the person is on my side and it helps my viewpoint.

[RandomKoolzip]

15. A much wiser person than I once said "Truth is subjective."

And that's my last thought on this topic. Good night.

[dustind]

30. I see...

So the truth is whatever you want it to be or is convenient, not what necessarily happened, or is correct. With that in mind everything the gun grabbers say makes sense.

[MrBenchley]

17. Of course we care about the truth

That's why when we find a yowzer like this Hardylaw who posts on Free Republic, we know he's full of shit...

[dustind]

32. so...

Someone talks about waco, and posts something he writes on free republic. That means he is a right winger, or that you are looking for an easy out without actually debating, which could it be...

[CO Liberal]

33. Or......

.... it could mean that he's just another right-wing nutcase.

[MrBenchley]

38. Check out down below

where we've got a ringing defense for this Free Republic lunatic, from WorldNutDaily.

[MrBenchley]

37. So turds tend to bob up at cesspools like Free Republic

"That means he is a right winger"
See a lot of intelligent progressive opinion over there, do you?

"or that you are looking for an easy out without actually debating"
Debating what? That right wing loonies like this geek lie their asses off every chance they get?

[DoNotRefill]

8. Before you say that....

"I've seen this guy's website, too, and he's a frothing right-winger..."

he does say that part of his practice covers First Amendment issues....Is that a Right-wing kind of thing?

I'd also point out that he has the Bush/Cheney morphed into Beevis/Butthead photo on his site, with a relatively anti-bush caption.

Sounds like he's something of a Libertarian, rather than a Ditto-head.

[Caution]

9. Actually

you'll find that both sides of the aisle tend to leap to the defense of the 1st amendment...when it's convenient.

[RandomKoolzip]

12. "Give me Convenience or Give Me Death" - Jello Biafra

You'll find that the right is always first to accuse the the left of censorship when there's an outcry over offensive, against-the-underdog invective. However, the left doesn't have the money or the resourses to actually enact censorship, unlike the right; usually, what Rush Limbaugh, et al. interprets as attempts at censorship is often someone on the left defending his/herself from a verbal attack.

The right has control of the legislative and judicial branches, therefore unfairly making them the official interpreters of the principles outlined in the constitution. I personally don't want Orrin Hatch or Antonin Scalia deciding what I can or can't say, with the power to make it so. The left often jumps to the defense of the first amndment out of necessity, because these cretins have it in their hands.

[dustind]

14. I thought we always defended the 1st

I thought free speech was the most import right recognized by the BOR. I defend it 100% no matter what is being said. Rights are inalienable, I have always found the right(wingers) trying to sensor what it thinks is immoral, and it does not always stop there.

[MrBenchley]

22. Nobody says the freepers and gun nuts can't lie

But nobody says we have to be dumb enough to believe them either...

[MrBenchley]

16. Stop Press! Right Wing Loony Lies About Moore!

ALL of that crap has been debunked long ago.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607

[Spoonman]

19. Get a grip

That lame ass shit has been "debunked" a hundred times.
You might as well believe ET as well.
It's Hollywood bottom line, and the so called "facts" of this film were totally distorted in an attempt to demonstrate Moores point of view.

There have been hundreds of reviews on this film that totally expose it for the editing "crap"umentary it is.

As we can see, finding a supportive one is impossible, due to the fact that even those posted here in support demonstrate the blatant bullshit that it is.

The gun and the bank scene.

The only thing that Moore compressed is the timeframe.

Leading the audeince to believe you can walk at 9 am and walk out at 9:30 am with a gun. Blantant lie! Why would it need to be compressed, if it was supposed to be fact?

According to the same WSJ interview, "Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period." This is plausible -- but entirely irrelevant for the movie

It is suppose to be a DOCUMENTARY, documentaries demonstrate FACTS, so it is entirely relevant!!!! Without it, the audience is mislead into believing there was no waiting period.

There is nothing inaccurate whatsoever about the bank scene. The bank does exactly what it advertises. It hands out guns from its vault to those who open an account

The first point is correct, but in the film fails to demonstrate all the steps the individual must take in order to obtain it. Including a waiting period. To add to it, the guns were never handed out at the bank, and the bank has never had a federal firearms license issued to it. Moore, doing a little creative cut and paste tries to imply the bank was an FFL holder. Wrong, check the ATF data base for licensed dealers.
Tha guns were kept at a licensed dealer 1.5 hours away from the bank.

The hillbilly hunter scene

Moore comically portrays an incident in which some reckless hunters tied a gun to their dog to take a funny picture, and one of the hunters was shot.
According to the police reports, the foolish hunters had only a still camera,
But Moore presents a fabricated video clip which purports to have been filmed by the hunter's friend.
The clip appears to be a home movie, and Moore makes hunters seem viciously callous: The "hunter" holding the camera continues recording after his fellow hunter has been wounded, rather than immediately stopping to help the friend.
The police report demonstrates this as a total fucking lie!!

Moore goes to the Michigan Militia.

Moore allows the militia members to present their case, he makes the group (which has no record of illegal violence or any other illegal activity) appear extremely dangerous by informing viewers that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols attended militia meetings. Moore conveniently neglects to mention that the two were kicked out, for talking about violence.

It goes on and on and on.

Those who chose to believe this film need to realize it was a movie, not a fact based documentary.

Lies and fantasies do not support an argument, and those who attempt to use them discredit themselves and their cause.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

24. Where did this hardylaw bob up from, spoon?

He's part of the freak Republic's goons and loons....

As CO pointed out: "This is an attorney who specializes in First Amendment and Second Amendment cases, is convinced of a conspiracy behind the Waco incident, and is proud of the coverage he's received at Free Republic."

Once again, you show your nice collection of playmates, spoon. Why don't you tell us what Ann Coulter thought next?

[Spoonman]

26. Try again,

There are hundreds of sources of this info out there.
Those of us willing to admit to the truth of an issue seem to find them quite easily.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_3_michael_moore.html

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/07/58672.php

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30521

Not so much to do with the movie, but more along the lines of who black journalists feel are bigots and racists.

[MrBenchley]

27. World Nut Daily? You've outdone yourself, spoon

Try to sink a little bit lower, if that's possible.....

[Spoonman]

29. Yea, lets see you spout

more broad brush "the RKBA crowd are racist", right after you send the author an e-mail telling him how racist he is.

I don't care who published it, the fact remmains, Moore is a self serving fat peice of lying trash that rakes in millions by exploiting the fears of the emotionaly motivated people of this country.

"Larry Elder, controversial radio talk-show host from Los Angeles, is the author of the libertarian blockbuster "The Ten Things You Can't Say in America."

Some of the 10 things you can't say in America include:
* 'Blacks are more racist than whites'
* 'There's only a dime's worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats'
* 'The media bias is real, widespread and destructive'
* 'America's greatest problem is illegitimacy.'

It never ceases to amaze me how people can put their head in the sand so deep, so as to never obtain the truth because of their own hatred and bias.

Yea this guy really is part of the great RWC.

Wake up, your dead wrong on this one.

P.S. CC me that e-mail when you send it to Larry.

[MrBenchley]

34. Peddle that Uncle Tom's rubbish to someone

who gives a crap.

"It never ceases to amaze me how people can put their head in the sand so deep, so as to never obtain the truth because of their own hatred and bias."
It never ceases to amaze me that there are people so stupid that they swallow right wing horseshit.

"Yea this guy really is part of the great RWC."
Tell us, spoon, where does this asswipe's column appear?

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/elder.html

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/larryelder/le20030515.shtml

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/archives.asp?AUTHOR_ID=20

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1374

And let's add:

"Apparently, some people have taken issue with what Coulter has written about McCarthy and the "blacklisting" in Hollywood. Ann is on Larry Elder's show now with a conservative director explaining her work in "Treason." "

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/946138/posts

[Spoonman]

41. What is with you?

You are shown by multiple sources that Moore is a lying sack of shit.

Your response - (in my most childish voice) no he's not.

You stereotype all RKBA people as racists, and when a black man expesses his opinion in a JEWISH publication, that one of your heros is a racist.

You respond - (in my most childish voice) no he's not, and the guy that wrote that, well, well, He's a right winger whaaa whaaaa whaaaa.

You and your's do not have a monopoly on truth, and when "factions" support the lies of people like Moore, Slack is right, it turns the voters against the democrats.

Hell, with all the hipocracy I see demonstrated here, I beginning to question what my decision might be in 04. I don't want to be, as with I believe most people don't want to be, associated with a group that ignores facts in favor of fiction.

I don't expect you to "get" this concept, hell you can't even realize the difference between reality and a movie.

[MrBenchley]

43. I'm not stupid enough to buy right wing horseshit

"You and your's do not have a monopoly on truth"
The hell we don't...especially since you're posting lies from the scum of the earth.

"I beginning to question what my decision might be in 04."
You're kidding...you never read anything but right wing loonies, you pimp for folks like Ted Nugent and Orrin Hatch, and now you're having doubts?

[Spoonman]

51. Yea yea right

try again, only add MORE desperation to it.

"you're posting lies from the scum of the earth"

Scum of the earth, scum, scum, scum. If you can't rebuttle with the truth, just start calling them names. Very effective, hah! Real childish more accurately describes it.

What a joke, take your own advice and shoot off a flare if you EVER come across a fact.

There has been more fiction proven to be fiction in the shit you post than any other persons here.

You can claim anything you want, but the truth stands up to scrutiny, and your claims can't even stand up in the slightest breeze.

[MrBenchley]

55. Spoon, go peddle your rubbish

from the Washington Times, World Nut Daily, and the Free Republic to someone dumb enough to believe it.

"the truth stands up to scrutiny"
And your claims bob in the right wing cesspool you dredged them up from.

[Spoonman]

65. You show me

what I posted from the Free Republic. Not by inferance, but a dirrect link.

"right wing cesspool" - Lithium and Prozac might cure that paranoia, or is that your standard argument to attempt to discredit?

[MrBenchley]

68. Where's that guy Hardylaw boasting about appearing?

Oh yeah, the Free Republic...

[Spoonman]

72. Sorry pal

Everything I got was intentionally from people other than Hardylaw.

So try try again!
Your argument is running out of steam.

[MrBenchley]

76. Yes, you are getting sorrier and sorrier

Who is that you're trying to defend here, spoon? Oh yeah, hardylaw from free republic.

[Spoonman]

77. Once again

Everything I got was intentionally from people other than Hardylaw.

I guess your having trouble reading again today.

[MrBenchley]

81. And everything you got was MORE right wing rubbish

And, no I got no problem reading. Nor with pointing out right wing horseshit.

[Romulus]

42. well, we know who the racist is now

"Peddle that Uncle Tom's rubbish to someone who gives a crap"

Great job. Thanks for clearing that up.

[MrBenchley]

44. Yup...it's the RKBA crowd

that peddle pieces of shit like this disgrace.

Next tell us what a courageous fighter for the black community Clarence Thomas has been, why doncha?

[Spoonman]

48. Another link for you

Send this guy an e-mail too.
And explain to him how he's a racist.
Come on I dare you.

http://www.blackmanwithagun.com/

[MrBenchley]

49. Don't know if he's a racist

but he certainly is an idiot.

[CO Liberal]

53. He Used to Post Here On DU

Once or twice, at the invitation of another DUer. Guess he didn't like what he saw, because he never came back............

[MrBenchley]

57. He seems pretty happy with the Reverend Moon

though...

[MrBenchley]

50. And where's this bozo's crap appear? The Washington Times.

You sure know how to pick 'em, spoon. Nobody could ever have the slightest doubt that you are really a Democrat.

http://www.blackmanwithagun.com/PreachingGod.html

[Spoonman]

58. Is that all you've got?

Pretty weak, and it undoubtedly demonstrates your total inability to substantiate your argument.
The source has NOTHING to do with the validity of the fact that you spout “all RKBA gun-nuts are racists”, and are now faced with having to disprove that statement.
Try to make a valid point without sounding like a bigot, please.

[CO Liberal]

60. Try to Make a Valid Point, Spoonman

Period.

All you seem to be doing is attacking MrBenchley.

[Spoonman]

63. Yea surrrrrrrrrre

Take a bite of it yourself.
I see the same shit from you on occasion.
Marching with Doctor King = Racist 30 years later.

Now that's some logic any idiot could follow!

[MrBenchley]

66. Do I really NEED any more than that?

[CO Liberal]

70. Wonder Why He's Posing With a Picture of Mussolini

Was he speaking at a meeting of the Benito Fan Club?

:-)

Anyone associated in any way with Sun Myung Moon is instantly suspect and automatically declared worthless scum, IMHO.

[MrBenchley]

74. Good question, isn't it?

There used to be a Moonie site that had a picture of Poppa and old Barbara Bush posing happily with the Moon family...but it got yanked.

[Spoonman]

75. Oh I'm sure

Kenn Blanchard, Sun Myung Moon and Mussolini are all sitting down at billy bobs bar drinks toasts to the confederat swastika.

What a joke, can't you establish a better "connection" to discredit him. No I didn't think so.

[CO Liberal]

86. And Why Are You Defending All This Human Swill??????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???????????

[Spoonman]

90. So I take it you know

Kenn Blanchard?
I didn't think so.
Now crawl away in discrace for even thinking about stereotyping an individual you know NOTHING about.

[CO Liberal]

93. I've Read Enough Of His Stuff

...to know that it's not worth my time reading any more of it.

And I'm not stereotyping him - I'm just grouping him in with another bunch of useless individuals.

[CO Liberal]

96. Just Because You Found ONE Black Man Who Agrees With Your Position .....

....does not redeem all pro-gunners.

That's like saying that Clarence Thomas is representative of ALL African-Americans.

[Spoonman]

101. Go back to whinning

about the rampant stereotyping in the "defense contractor" industry.

There are millions of legitimate black, hispanic, asian and jewish gun owners.

Unlike your elite enlightened "white" attitude, we believe in the RKBA.

[CO Liberal]

103. I Guess I Am Winning

No matter how you spell it!

:-)

[Township75]

54. Don't forget his "wh_te trash" comments in another post.

I bet he will continue to use words like these next time we discuss the racism of gun control.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

73. Well, well, well, looky here....

JPFO is SPONSORED by some scum selling Confederate flags.....

"Search sponsors add search to your site
SoldierCity - Confederate Flags Get confederate flags at SoldierCity. Learn about the new products, shipping information, and gift center.
Rebel Stuff Sells Confederate merchandise, including T-shirts, caps, flags, and related accessories. Order Rebel print bikinis, crop tops, and short shorts.
Confederate flags - Soldier City Soldier City is the ultimate source for confederate flags."

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=6283468&pid=r&mode=ALL&query=Confederate&t=s


"A Lost Cause, But an Honorable One, by Lewis Regenstein
      The controversy over the Confederate battle flag and what it symbolizes continues to rage. But it is rarely if ever explained why many decent people of good will are so proud of their Confederate ancestry. "

http://www.jpfo.org/unpopularsp-0302.htm


And from RKBA nutland central...

http://keepandbeararms.com/news/kabanews/display_day_archive.asp?d=9%2F28%2F2000

[Spoonman]

80. Sorry, but I don't see your

beloved swastika, you know, the Hilter wore on his sleeve when he signed the laws preventing Jews from owning firearms.

[MrBenchley]

83. CONFEDERATE swastika, spoon.

You know, the kind bigoted white trash are always wearing at gun shows and the like...

[Spoonman]

85. Oh those swastikas

whatever, another stereotypical bunch of horseshit from the master.

PS - I didn't see any of those on those web sites either.

[MrBenchley]

92. Well, the rest of us saw them

and that's enough for me...

"Spoonman (423 posts) Fri Aug-29-03 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Yea surrrrrrrrrre
These guys certainly have the Confederate swastika all over their web sites.
http://www.jpfo.org"

"MrBenchley  (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-29-03 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. Well, well, well, looky here....

JPFO is SPONSORED by some scum selling Confederate flags.....
"Search sponsors add search to your site
SoldierCity - Confederate Flags Get confederate flags at SoldierCity. Learn about the new products, shipping information, and gift center.
Rebel Stuff Sells Confederate merchandise, including T-shirts, caps, flags, and related accessories. Order Rebel print bikinis, crop tops, and short shorts.
Confederate flags - Soldier City Soldier City is the ultimate source for confederate flags."

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=6283468&pid=r&mode=ALL&query=Confederate&t=s

"A Lost Cause, But an Honorable One, by Lewis Regenstein
      The controversy over the Confederate battle flag and what it symbolizes continues to rage. But it is rarely if ever explained why many decent people of good will are so proud of their Confederate ancestry. "

http://www.jpfo.org/unpopularsp-0302.htm

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Township75]

69. Is that comment directed to me?

you can dodge the question if you like

[MrBenchley]

78. Are you really trying to peddle that rubbish?

The last site I saw that was trying to do so was simultaneously trying to pretend Ted Nugent wasn't racist but that the NAACP was.

[ET Awful]

18. I recommend you go to . . .

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607

I also recommend that you actually WATCH the film isntead of just reading a slanted review.

If you'd actually seen the film, you would know that the "change of clothes" was no such thing, it was an introduction showing the common perception of Charlton Heston, which was entirely accurate. The film in NO way insinuated that him holding the musket and chanting that never changing motto of gun freaks everywhere "from my cold dead hands," was shot at the same time as the other footage.

It did show him reading a letter from the Mayor of Denver asking him not to come there (when he introduced the letter, boos could be heard from the gun lovers), and he showed complete lack of compassion for the opinions of those in the community when he basically told the city of Denver to fuck-off.

He didn't lie. He edited. He did what filmmakers have done for decades. He showed the truth in a way that could be discerned without sitting through hours of unrelated garbage.

Have you actually seen the film? Have you actually understood the message of the film? The sad thing is that whether he lied or not, the people that criticize this film missed the message entirely. They attacked it because they either (a) hated Moore, or (b) thought it was an anti-gun film. The fact is neither is a valid reason to attack the film.

The film simply dares to ask the question . . . Why are American people living in such an environment of fear and violence? The problems we have that are normally blamed for violence exist in dozens of countries throughout the world, yet we are unique in our thirst for blood and our willingness to kill one another.

He said nothing pro-gun or anti-gun. He simply asked why we are more violent than other countries.

Watch the film, forget your preconceived prejudices and pay attention to the actual message of the film.

[Spoonman]

21. Forget your preconceived prejudices

He didn't lie. He edited. He did what filmmakers have done for decades. He showed the truth in a way that could be discerned without sitting through hours of unrelated garbage.

You're joking right? I've seen the movie 5 or 6 times and it's gotta be the most anti-gun movie ever made!!!!!
Please, how can you say it ain't anti-gun?
It's whole message is that Americans live in a society of fear created by their government and that because of this and the easy availability of firearms many people are needlessly dying.
The whole movie contains scenes where Moore Tries to discredit the NRA and other corporations with any links to firearms.
I can't view this movie as anything else BUT a piece of anti gun propaganda.
Sure Moore goes deeper in some places to try to explain why Americans seem so ready to use their guns on each other but his attempts are just cosmetic.

Not an anti-gun movie? I'm not trying to belittle you, but damn, if Bowling For Columbine isn't anti-gun then what is?

To add to all this, it was suppose to be a documentary!!!!!!!!!
All that unrelated garbage would have showed the truth, thus FUCKING his whole message of the film.

[Romulus]

25. I didn't think it was anti-gun

I picked up on the violence part, but for some reason a lot of people were walking out muttering about the "gun lobby."

[dustind]

28. already did...

Yes I watched the film, I liked what it said about the media, 100% right. It made a few good points, but Moore himself focused on a few tragedies like he blamed our media for doing. I honestly do not how you can say it was anti gun, he made gun owners look like a bunch of racist idiots. Let me talk to a few houndred antis and I will get some footage that makes all of you look much worse. WE do not live in an environment of violence, and most of us do not live in fear, I never lock my doors or shut the garage door, I jog at night, etc. Again he was right about the media making it seem like we do though.

After the scene with the girls crying and talking about what happened it shows Heston saying "From my cold dead hands" Moore said "just ten days after the killings despite..." He left out the part where the NRA said they cancelled everything they could by law. He also changed Heston's speech to say something opposite what he actually said. I talked to a few people at my college who saw the film, they all thought it was one speech.

You said that the NRA told the city of Denver to F off, that is a lie.

If we want to use the same editing tactics, you said, "I recommend you to go... fuck-off" See, it changes the message into a lie.

What Heston really said was here. Its 180 off from what Moore said.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html

I also read that website you posted, it said the NRA could have told its 4+Million members of a change ten days before the event. Which is impossible given how many members can only be reached through mail. How can thousands of over four million people change their plans to attend something ten days in advance. Only a few thousand where coming, but the NRA did not know who. They cancelled everything they could.

The page you posted agrees about the 48 hours when Moore said they held a rally. Except they said it was bad editing, when in fact it was intentionally put in there to make it seem like the NRA was waiting for bad news to go hold a rally. That page even said Moore was unfair to the NRA and to Heston. It also admits Moore lied about he death statistics. BTW Heston marched with Martin Luther King, yet everyone calls him a racist thanks to Moore, it has done more for civil rights than all of us combined. I had nothing against Moore until I saw this film.

[CO Liberal]

31. Heston May Have Marched With Dr. King.......

...but he erased all his positive brownie points through his involvement with the NRA.

Charleton Heston and Ronald Reagan are very similar.

They started out as liberals.
Then they became conservatives.
And not they have Alzheimer's.

Let that be a warning to you........

[Spoonman]

35. Questions

Can you name a few others that have had involvement with the NRA?

Can you even tell us why NRA was started?

I'm not a member, but you guys seem to put out most of your stock and trade opinions regarding this issue based on something to do with the NRA.

I'm just curious if you even understand that which you criticize.

[CO Liberal]

39. The NRA May Have Started Out With Good Intentions.....

....but thanks to its recent leadership (including such assholes as Charleton Heston, Wayne LaPierre, Ted Nugent, and Bob Barr), it has become the enemy.

The NRA has become synonomous with teh Republican Party. The country would be better off of both of these evil organizations ceased to exist.

[Spoonman]

46. Sort of like

the evil organization of the Kennedy family?

Booleggers
Rape
Murder
Mafia Connections

Avatar?

I wonder how much grief sorrow and death can be attributted to that group.

We blame "corporate america" for most of the socio-economic problems that contribute to crime.

Shit, THEY ARE CORPORATE AMERICA!
So I guess they're to blame.

I will never understand how people can be so blatantly two faced.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

59. So do the rest of us, reading your posts

spouting that the Kennedys are evil, and pimping crap from World Nut Daily, Free Republic and the Reverend Sun Myung Moon....

"I'm not some goose stepping, toe the line zombie"
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha......

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[el_gato]

82. really bad methods for discussion

saying shit like
"grow up" is downright pathetic
and points to the fact that you don't have anything valid to say

[CO Liberal]

87. You Noticed?

:-)

[Spoonman]

89. And your point was

What gato got your tongue?
Maybe you should read the whole thread before spouting of in defense of a obvious bigot.
Or maybe you share his opinions?
You ever consider what "race" I might belong to before you interjected?
Valid point my ass.

[dustind]

108. that is why I do not post often...

EDIT: sorry I did not read his post, I was only commenting on the title, my bad.

When there is a debate it always seems to be a flame war, way to many people act like children. I am not perfect but some people can not comunicate without insults. I have never met such a hateful group, especially for democrats.

People also seem to try and discredit the source through irrelivant insults rather than debate it, an example would be this article. I have heard more "you are a right winger" acusations in this thread than months of other message boards combined.

[MrBenchley]

110. Discredit the sources?

Who the hell CREDITS sources like this?

"I have heard more "you are a right winger" acusations in this thread than months of other message boards combined."
Hell, I doubt there's another thread on here where you've got "Democrats" trying to pass off WorldNutDaily and the Reverend Moon as CREDIBLE sources, either.

[dustind]

36. which causes which?

Does being right winged cause you to loose your mind, or does loosing your mind through a horrible disease cause you to move to the right?

I should not make jokes but I had to lighten the air.

BTW you sure read my reply quickly, wow.

[CO Liberal]

40. It May Be A Marker

Just as animal abuse as a child can manifest itself in mass murder later in life, a political shift from left to right may be looked upon as a sign on Alzheimer's.

[MrBenchley]

45. What always went unmentioned publicly with Reagan

was that the time he claims to have left the Democrats was precisely the time Kennedy began pushing civil rights initiatives...and that the first thinng he did in the GOP was start recruiting turds like Thurmond, Lott and Helms.

[Township75]

64. Like you have the authority to judge.

I'm sure you have done something as meaningful and courageous in life like march with Dr. King and push for civil rights when it wasn't popular. Please list it for everyone here CO-L.

I can only imagine your feelings toward Heston are because of his involvement in the NRA, which of course leads the movement for sensible gun laws...and of course guns lead to deaths right?

Hey, CO-L....aren't you a technical writer for a defense contracter? Does this contracter make weapons? You have said Heston has erased all of his positive brownie points because of his involvement with the NRA. I would like to know (and I bet others would too), if the contracter you work for produces any weapons, or none at all.

Because if it does, I would expect that you feel you have lost all positive brownie points in life.

I won't be able to check your anwser for a bit, but I will be back to view it.

[CO Liberal]

67. For the Record............

It looks like Heston forgot what he learned marching with Dr. King long before he came down with Alzheimer's.

The NRA does NOT "lead the movement for sensible gun laws" - it leads the movement for the REPEAL of sensible gun laws.

And the defense contractor I work for does not make weapons.

And my posting my opinions on an Internet board cannot compare with what CHarleton Heston has done to help make this country less safe. He is a disgrace to the human race.

[Township75]

71. Do they make systems for weapons?

Is your employer making or developing anything that is used in a weapon or weapon system?

[MrBenchley]

79. Might as well move on to personal attacks, township

It's clear the RKBA crowd hasn't got anything else left...

[Township75]

84. I will leave personal attacks to you Benchley

it is clear the anti RKBA crowd never had anything to begin with.

[MrBenchley]

94. Not me, town. I got facts

and you guys got these slurs and pouts...

[Spoonman]

102. Slurs

like, how all pro-RKBA people peddle white supremacy and confederate flag shit.

Oh, that was you.

[MrBenchley]

106. Gee, spoon, if you try to defend scum

you're going to hear just how scummy they are.

Now tell us again how the JPFO has nothing to do with the confederate swastika....or what a figure of tolerance and harmony Ted Nugent is.

[CO Liberal]

88. No

And that's all I can really say on the subject.

[Township75]

91. Well, the wouldn't call it a defense contracter...

if it didn't make something involved with weapon systems.

I just watched BFC a few days ago. Maybe they had you on it when they visited a defense contracter.

I will remember in the future when you remind us about the deaths due to guns, about the people who make money through "defense" systems

[CO Liberal]

95. Oh, NOW Who's Stereotyping????

"Well, the wouldn't call it a defense contracter..."

if it didn't make something involved with weapon systems.

There are two basic types of military hardware - offensive and defensive. Weapons are offensive - I work on the defensive side of things, and as I said before, I cannot elaborate any more than that.

You just displayed how very little you know about the subject.

[jody]

97. CO, I understand, but DoD defines "weapon(s) system" as

"A combination of one or more weapons with all related equipment, materials, services, personnel, and means of delivery and deployment (if applicable) required for self-sufficiency" DOD Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms

While your personal position with the company might not be directly related to a weapon, I would be very surprised if the company did not provide "related equipment, materials, services, personnel, and means of delivery and deployment " to "one or more weapons".

[CO Liberal]

98. As I Said Before, Jody, I Can't Comment Further

Sorry!

[jody]

99. Understand. I thought you were taking a position that only

"offensive weapons" were included in the phrase "weapon system".

I intended my reply to show that both "offensive and defensive weapons" were included in the term "weapon system".

[CO Liberal]

100. But the Military Buys More Than Just Weapons

They also buy communications equipment, spacecraft, and all sorts of stuff that does not involving the firing of projectiles.

[jody]

104. Yes, but such things as "communications equipment" are part of

a "weapon system".

Even technical manuals used to operate and maintain communications equipment used to support a weapon are part of the weapon system.

The key is a weapon with "all related equipment, materials, services, personnel, and means of delivery and deployment (if applicable) required for self-sufficiency.

[CO Liberal]

105. But Not EVERYTHING Is Part of A Weapon System

And I really can't go any further. I have a security clearance to protect.

[jody]

107. I understand. Perhaps between the two of us we shed a little light

upon the correct DoD definition of "weapon system". :hi:

[dustind]

109. why doesnt anyone debate gun laws anymore

You should post your opinion on specific gun laws in new threads so they can be debated.

[Spoonman]

111. We try,

If you post a source it's right wing garbage, If they post a source it's better than the Koran.

Blind to the truth, refusal to accept facts and false allegations are the stock in trade of these people.

You were right about the hateful stuff too. Lot's of racist remarks down here, many of which have absolutely no place in civil debate, but it is all they have.

[MrBenchley]

112. And what is it you try, spoon?

"If you post a source it's right wing garbage, If they post a source it's better than the Koran."
Another telling line from a "Democrat."

[Spoonman]

114. More of a Democrat

than you will ever be.
The Democrats I know aren't racist liars.

Got anymore BS for us today?

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?oq=penis&id=6283468&pageid=r&lang=en&query=ford&Find=Search&mode=ALL

[MrBenchley]

115. Yeah, we could tell from the "evil Kennedys" rant

and all the crap frrom right wing loonies you posted.

And the JPFO certainly ARE racist liars....as this tidbit quite clearly demonstrates....

http://www.jpfo.org/alert19990719.htm

[Spoonman]

116. Racist Jews...........

I've heard it all now.
The ant-RKBA will say anything to try an validate their rubbish

Man you sound more desperate every day.

[MrBenchley]

117. Yep....disgusting that you'd try to peddle these thugs

as a credible source.

[Terran]

118. Locking

I think we've all had our say on this topic.

Dirk - DU Moderator