Tale of 4 Ohio Cities.

[FatSlob]

Three robberies, one defense.

1. Dayton: A Kroger store posted against concealed carry is robbed.
http://www.whiotv.com/news/3428769/detail.html

2. Akron: A Duke and Duchess BP store posted against concealed carry is robbed and the clerk repeatedly pistol whipped.
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/local/8925849.htm?1c

3. Portsmouth: Broad daylight robber of posted against concealed carry 5/3 Bank. http://www.portsmouth-dailytimes.com/search/search_detail.cfm?ID=5352

4. Toledo: Clerk uses gun to defend against robbery. 1/2 of convenience store workers are armed.
http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=1944696

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Notice a trend? Places posted attract crime.

[T Town Jake]

1. But, but, but...

...I thought the criminals where supposed to respect "gun free zone" signs and go elsewhere whenever they saw one to committ their crimes...and that clerk in example #4 actually used a nasty old gun to defend himself against a criminal? Somehow that seems wrong...
</sarcasm>

[iverglas]

4. where *do* you get your notions??

I thought the criminals where supposed to respect "gun free zone" signs and go elsewhere whenever they saw one to committ their crimes

You really seem to need to find some better buckets to get your ideas out of, friend. Whoever handed you the one with this one in is *not* your friend.

Heck, maybe if you tried thinking for yourself, you'd realize the utter moronicity of what you're saying. Have I got the line right, now?

[T Town Jake]

6. "Have I got the line right, now?"...

...I'm just grateful that you kept it to less than a thousand words.

[PopeyeII]

17. Has anyone ever noticed how few gun stores get robbed?

Wal-Mart and K-Mart should move there sporting good counters right up near the front. Management could keep an eye on things to make sure criminals and kids weren't making improper purchases. Criminals would think twice about holding them up.

[PopeyeII]

19. We removed the pro-second amendment bumper stickers from our car.

Every time we head to Niagara-On-Lake, Ikea, or Toronto we get our balls busted by the Canadian customs people. "Do you have guns in your trunk"? is the standard questions. "Pop the trunk" and let us look, we noticed your bumper sticker.

So we removed the bumper sticker, and all our problems ended. We could smuggle heroin and LSD and they wouldn't bother us, but GOD forbid we should have a "GUN" bumper sticker on our car.

Signs do make a difference. I use to think the US Government was paranoid until we got searched because of a bumper sticker.

[iverglas]

2. "1/2 of convenience store workers are armed."

Good dog. If half the workers at the 7-11 on my corner were armed, I'd be moving. They can't even figure out where to find the middle sections of the Toronto Star on Saturday morning, or where my brand of cigarettes is kept.

Notice a trend?

Uh, no. I notice 4 anecdotes. Maybe you can help me out by providing some actual statistically valid stats.

Places posted attract crime.

And my cats make it rain. Hey, the other day, they came in for dinner, and it started raining right after. In fact, it happened three times last month. I notice a distinct trend.

[FatSlob]

3. Where would you rob?

The posted or the not posted? We all know the answer to that one. Not all criminals are stupid.

[TX-RAT]

5. Am i to understand # 4 didn't have a sign

But they still tried to rob it?

[iverglas]

8. amazing, eh?

All those armed employees, and still someone tried to rob the place ...

[FatSlob]

11. Yet did not succeed.

[iverglas]

12. yeah, what a dummy

If the would-be robber had just started shooting *first*, he could maybe have got what he wanted.

Of course, there's some chance that one of those armed (and yet so commonly witless, clueless, self-absorbed, teenaged high school drop-out) convenience store clerks, or an armed customer or two, would have downed the robber. High noon at the 7-11. Who will have the guts to draw on the guy with the gun already aimed at someone's head? Maybe s/he could even have done so before the robber shot too many people.

Hmm. How many is too many?

[iverglas]

7. short term memory problems?

I ask, of course, out of genuine concern.

It was your thread ... about the exact same thing ... and your question, and I ANSWERED IT once already this week -- yesterday, as a matter of bloody fact.

But here. I'm happy to quote myself when prompted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=65297#65492

If I were rational, I wouldn't be a criminal.

As I understand it, criminals hold up places of business in the US all the time whose owners/staff are, and where there is certainly a very good chance they will be, armed. At least so I gather from reading Guns in the News. A rational criminal wouldn't be taking the chance of getting killed by a cashier with a firearm.

A rational criminal wouldn't be holding up a business when it was full of customers, armed or not.

Somehow I doubt that a would-be robber who is willing to go up against a proprietor who is much more likely to be armed than any customer, and/or to try to rob a business when there are customers milling around, armed or not, is going to put the possibility of customers carrying concealed firearms into that balance and suddenly find the enterprise too risky, when his/her careful assessment of the situation had shown it to be a perfectly reasonable proposition until that factor intervened.

Strangely enough, YOU had no answer.

Wanna try this time?

btw, what exactly does the fact that half of the EMPLOYEES in a business are armed have to do with whether or not the business permits CUSTOMERS to carry firearms on the premises and what the costs or benefits of doing so might be, and what does a tale about an armed EMPLOYEE foiling a robbery have to do with the alleged benefits of having armed CUSTOMERS on the premises?

[TX-RAT]

9. "short term memory problems

Thought you were talking to me.
I was going to answer YES.

[iverglas]

10. "I was going to answer YES."

But then you forgot?

:P

[iverglas]

13. but is FatSlob ever going to answer??

Hm?

[FatSlob]

14. I never noted your previous, I'll go back to it, for now, though,

I must say that not all criminals are rational. The rational, intelligent ones are the ones we must worry about the most. These are the criminals who do/will target the posted stores. In fact, the same armed robber is suspected in a string of robberies at posted stores off of I-75. Obviously, he has some brains. Your average crackhead criminal won't make the connection, yet the rational, intelligent one will. I assume that your final thought had to do with the sign on the one company's door welcoming CHLers. The business obviously welcomes all who have a CHL, whether employee or customer. The sign indicates to criminals the greater possibility of armed resistance. The rational criminal will turn around immediately. The irrational criminal will likely find himself with a new orifice or two.

[alwynsw]

15. Tsk, tsk, tsk

It's a pity that you don't adhere to your own standards. Aruguments such as this one might hold water if you held yourself to the same standard that you demand of others.

From your post of 6-21:

1. Establishments where customers are prohibited
from carrying firearms have a disproportionate
tendency to be robbed.

2. Bars are establishments where customers are prohibited
from carrying firearms.

3. Bars do not have a disproportionate tendency
to be robbed.

(#3 is an observation based on long experience;
#1 is an observation based on carefully selected anecdotes covering a few weeks in time.)

in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x66373#66427

Apparently your observations and experiences have merit whilst those of others who hold opposing positions do not. Which is it to be?

I'm ready for the enormous and vapid reply and refutation.

[iverglas]

16. pity indeed

Apparently your observations and experiences have merit whilst those of others who hold opposing positions do not. Which is it to be?

I'm ready for the enormous and vapid reply and refutation.

Apparently your reference to a state of affairs that you allege to exist and yet for which you present no evidence, and which you in fact fail to even allege coherently, is worthy of others', and specifically my, consideration.

This is the second time I've seen this one, and it makes no more sense warmed over.

I could try guessing what you're on about, I suppose.

Are you perhaps saying that my premise:

3. Bars do not have a disproportionate tendency
to be robbed.

is a figment of my imagination, or is based solely on my personal experience??

I kind of hope not. That would just be weird.

But it's my best guess, and it's as far as I get before getting overwhelmingly bored.

[alwynsw]

21. I figured as much. n/t

[PopeyeII]

18. Bank guards, "armed" convenience store guards; all should be armed.

Personally I admire the person who empowers themself to take charge of their life. You sir infur that 7-11 store clerks are "stupid" and "ignorant". Are "blacks" two stupid to own firearms, are "women" too weak to shoot them, does the brown skin of a "7-11" clerk make you paranoid? The early roots of gun control were intent of denying people access to firearms based on race.

What color is the skin of the people holding up the "7-11's".

We all start somewhere, we all have to learn. We should learn at a rate faster than the criminals to stay ahead of them.

[iverglas]

20. aargh

You sir infur that 7-11 store clerks are "stupid" and "ignorant".

Leaving aside the obvious and always-entertaining dunderheaded assumption/presumption, I have not "infurred", or even inferred, or even implied, any such thing. I have implied that the 7-11 store clerks of my long acquaintaince are immature and scatter-brained. As are a whole lot of people in this world. I may not be immature, but even I have my scatter-brained moments.

Personally I admire the person who empowers themself to take charge of their life.

Yes, that's charming, I'm sure. Me, I prefer that people who choose to empower themselves by toting firearms around not work at my local 7-11 while they're doing it.

'Cause you see, there's just something else in issue when they do that, besides "their life". There's the lives of a whole lot of other people.

Are "blacks" two stupid to own firearms, are "women" too weak to shoot them, does the brown skin of a "7-11" clerk make you paranoid?

Well, for starters, working backward: is brown skin an occupational requirement for 7-11 clerks where you're at? It sure isn't where I'm at. Do the thunder and lightning and rain on a bright sunny day make you carry an umbrella?

Who are these "blacks" and "women"? Fake black people and fake women, that they must be placed in quotation marks?

Why do you ask me such bizarre questions? If YOU think that black people are stupid and women are weak, why don't you just come out and say so?

What color is the skin of the people holding up the "7-11's".

What colour is orange: true of false?

Hey, you started that one.

The damned thing is that the only time I know of when someone tried to hold up my local 7-11, it was with a penknife. The cashier laughed at him and told him to get outa there. (I talked to the cashier about 5 minutes after it happened.)

Ya know why? Petty criminals in Canada -- the drug addicts who hang out in this neighbourhood, for instance -- don't have firearms and don't make much effort to acquire them (a fair bit of effort would be needed, and they don't generally have the energy).

We all start somewhere, we all have to learn. We should learn at a rate faster than the criminals to stay ahead of them.

Yeah. We're doing quite a decent job of that hereabouts. Figuring out how to keep firearms out of the hands of petty criminals is an important step in that staying-ahead process, and we've made big strides in that direction. If you'd like me to teach you how, so that you too can learn, just let me know.