Jim Moran (D-VA) takes on unregulated 50cal sniper rifles

[billbuckhead]

VPC Offers Strong Support for Federal Legislation to Ban 50 Caliber Sniper Rifles

Representative Jim Moran (D-VA), Delegate Eleanor Holmes-Norton (D-DC), and DC and Virginia Law Enforcement Officials Warn of Public Safety Threat Posed by Rifles That Can Penetrate Armor Plating and Destroy Aircraf

Washington, DC—Area law enforcement and public officials warned at a 10:30 AM press conference today of the homeland security threat posed by 50 caliber sniper rifles and endorsed federal legislation introduced by Representative Jim Moran (D-VA) to ban these military-bred weapons. Fifty caliber sniper rifles can penetrate armor plating, pierce rail cars carrying toxic chemicals, and destroy aircraft. Currently being used by U.S. troops in Iraq, 50 caliber sniper rifles are accurate from over a mile, yet under federal law are sold in the United States with fewer restrictions than a standard handgun. Bolt-action 50 caliber sniper rifles are legal in the District of Columbia. The guns have already been banned in Los Angeles, CA. In March of this year, Contra Costa County, CA, and the New York State Assembly also voted to ban them. A vote is pending in the New York State Senate.

Tom Diaz, VPC senior policy analyst and author of numerous VPC studies on the threat posed by 50 caliber sniper rifles, states, "The Violence Policy Center commends Representative Moran for taking action to ban these weapons of war. Fifty caliber sniper rifles give terrorists, militia groups, and common criminals the same firepower as the U.S. Army. They have already been used against America's police, and have turned up in the arms caches of homegrown militias planning to assassinate public officials. If anyone is looking for the warning signs, they are here. These are the ideal tools for terrorists and must be banned before the unthinkable happens."

The VPC first identified the threat posed by 50 caliber sniper rifles with its landmark 2001 study Voting From the Rooftops: How the Gun Industry Armed Osama bin Laden, Other Foreign and Domestic Terrorists, and Common Criminals With 50 Caliber Sniper Rifles. Subsequent VPC studies have exposed the environmental safety threats presented by these guns' ability to penetrate from a distance bulk fuel and chemical tanks and other high-value targets, as well as their ability to destroy commercial aircraft. All of the VPC's studies are available at www.vpc.org.

<http://www.vpc.org/press/0405fifty.htm>

[MrBenchley]

1. Good for him...

Again, no reason for these things to be on the civilian market.

[demnan]

2. I'm going to miss Jim

when I move out of his district next month. He ain't perfect, but he's one of us.

I wonder who is running against Tom Davis (R-VA)? Anybody filled in on the local stuff. PM me please.

[MrSandman]

3. They should get the facxts right...

The .50 BMG "sniper rifles" have been around about 20 years. They were adopted by the military from th civilian market. What are the crimes these weapons have been used in?

"They have already been used against America's police, and have turned up in the arms caches of homegrown militias planning to assassinate public officials."

Anything a militia may have should be outlawed? No other justification is given.

[OpSomBlood]

5. Are there ANY documented .50 BMG crimes?

I'm telling you...it starts here. Then a few years down the road we're defending "terrorist" .458. Then we're defending .375. Then .308.

".308 is the choice of military snipers all over the world. There's no legitimate use for this ammunition."

[MrBenchley]

9. Gee op...

Just last month we had an "enthusiast" in Guns in the News who set fire to his own house and then used his 50 caliber toy to shoot at the arriving fire engines.

But hey, I love this fuckwit theory that we have to wait until some asswipe actually puts a few rounds through a toxic chemical reactor or a propane storage tank before we get to hear gun nuts piss and moan, "What law could have prevented this?"

[OpSomBlood]

15. .50 cal pistol or BMG?

There is a considerable difference, and perhaps you should bother to learn what it is.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

18. I sure don't give a flying fuck about what the bullets for brains bunch

is trying to pass off for "fact"...but then that's because it turns out to be steaming horseshit.

[OpSomBlood]

20. Of course you don't care about facts when they disprove your "point"

So did the guy use a .50 cal pistol or a .50 BMG rifle to shoot at the fire truck?

Or are such details just "gun porn" to you?

[Name removed]

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[OpSomBlood]

26. Here's a flare:

The ammo likely used to shoot the fire truck:



The ammo that is being discussed in this thread:



For comparative purposes, the .50 AE (top) is shorter than the AA battery shown in the lower pic. Sorry I couldn't find a side-by-side comparison image.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[OpSomBlood]

30. You'd better start a "Ban the .50 AE...threat to fire trucks" thread.

But I know how much you are repulsed by facts.

Oh, by the way...9mm is the choice of criminals and terrorists. If you want to start somewhere, start there.

[LibLabUK]

31. A question

Is there any legal impediment to banning the sale, manufacture, transport or possession of ammunition?

[OpSomBlood]

33. Certain types like armor-piercing and incendiary.

And I see where you are going with this. I wouldn't mind better regulation of ammunition sales either. Maybe even a background check.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[OpSomBlood]

42. Name-calling and ad hominems certainly don't bother you.

Who needs facts when you can just call your opponent a scumbag?

[MrBenchley]

43. Why should they?

It's not like the gun nuts have anything else to offer...

And Tom DeLay IS a scumbag...that's a fact. So is Pete Coors.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

55. How the hell would YOU know, op?

Post that photo from the stentorian again...

[OpSomBlood]

58. Go outside and have some things happen to you once in a while.

So you have something new to talk about.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[7th_Sephiroth]

96. the gynsthat fire .50 ae ammo

are way too expensive, legit or not, easier to go with a .45 or a 9 mil

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[RoeBear]

41. So it would have been ok...

...if he had shot at them with a 30 caliber? Great logic Benchy.

[MrBenchley]

68. Swell gun nut "logic," roe....

Every day I get a new reason to be grateful I ain't got a speck of whatever is percolating through the RKBA crowd's pointy little skulls....

[RoeBear]

86. Incredible! Are you really dumb enough to believe...

...that he wouldn't have shot at the fire trucks if he didn't have access to a 50 cal?

[MrBenchley]

87. Like I said, roe....

Glad I ain't got a speck of whatever demented rubbish runs through the pointy skulls of gun nuts.

And no, I don't think a loony who sets fire to his house and shoots at firefighters is all that picky. So wasn't it a treat that he had something that could shoot THROUGH the fucking trucks? "Toys for big boys," my ass.

[MrBenchley]

89. By the way, roe...

where was there any mandate for this loony to set fire to his house and shoot at firefighters in the first place?

Or is that just the sort of thing that seems like big fun to the trigger-happy?

[RoeBear]

90. I'm going to defend this kook.

Not.

I'm just saying the lack of availability of a 50 cal would not have turned him into a saint. And if you actually banned 50 cal rifles; the next day 49 caliber rifles would be on the market.

[MrBenchley]

92. Thank Koresh for small favors...

"the lack of availability of a 50 cal would not have turned him into a saint"
<sarcasm> No shit? Here I thought Osama bought thm for recreational purposes only. </sarcasm>Gee, you mean it's supposed to be some surprise to me that the "boys" who want these "toys" are low-lifes and scumbags?

[RoeBear]

93. Care to respond to this actuality?

And if you actually banned 50 cal rifles; the next day 49 caliber rifles would be on the market.

[MrBenchley]

94. Jeeze, roe, you mean I have to TELL you the gun industry is scummy?

Or that the Tim McVeigh wannabe crowd craves military style weapons for their own twisted purposes?

Or that there are a handful of pinheads with gun fetishes that try to justify anything, no matter how absurd or dangerous, about their "loved ones?"



So tell us, what was the mandate for this fuckwit to set fire to his house and start shooting at firefighters? You seemed to think that was some sort of necessity when you asked the initial question.

Or is that just the sort of thing that runs routinely through every trigger-happy loony's fantasy life?

[RoeBear]

95. There's plenty of fuckwits around...

...I don't try to figure out what you're thinking.

[MrBenchley]

97. And so many of them are pro-gun...

"I don't try to figure out what you're thinking"
It's a poor workman who blames his tools....

[TX-RAT]

23. Wasn't there a 50 used at Waco?

[MrBenchley]

25. Yup...

"Closer to home, .50 caliber weapons were fired at the FBI by the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, who were responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing, had .50 caliber weapons in their arsenal."

http://www.tf.org/tf/featured/3-1-02fiftycaliber.shtml

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

There are PLENTY of facts...

it's just that the trigger-happy amongst us never have anything but right wing horseshit that they pass off as facts.

.50-caliber weapon packs lethal punch
Source: MIKE McGRAW
A .50-caliber rifle like the one found at 9400 Grandview Road this week is an awesome weapon that fires the largest commercially available ammunition in the United States.And the bullet blasts a very big hole.Firefighters and police officers who dodged a hail of .50-caliber gunfire Monday will attest to that. The slugs left gaping holes in several of their fire trucks and an ambulance.The muzzle flash from a .50-caliber weapon - which fires cartridges 6 inches long and a half-inch

Published on February 27, 2004, Page A6, Kansas City Star, The (MO)

"Fiery shield hides gunman
Two south KC houses burn
residents in area take cover
Source: RUSS PULLEY
KEVIN HOFFMANN
JAMES HART
Gunfire brought down a MAST paramedic Monday afternoon as she responded to a smoke-filled south Kansas City neighborhood where two houses burned to the ground.The paramedic, Mary Seymour of Kansas City, was out of surgery late Monday and was recovering. Police combed the neighborhood for the attacker and planned to search the area again today.The chaos began about 3:38 p.m. when someone reported that a house had exploded in the 9400 block of Grandview Road.Fire trucks, paramedics and police
Published on February 24, 2004, Page A1, Kansas City Star, The (MO) "

Here's the discussion of it at the time...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=48199

[LibLabUK]

44. Hmm..

Did the guy possess the gun legally?

Not that it makes much difference to the EMT he shot.

[slackmaster]

52. Article does not say what type of gun the parametic was shot with

See http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/8307544.htm?1c

[MrBenchley]

54. Probably...

Hell, listen to the gun-crazy wail and howl here about the proposal to outlaw these cannons....

I'm just glad he didn't try to turn Kansas City into a mini-Bhopal....

[slackmaster]

49. I always get suspicious when someone posts a quote with no link

What's the matter, MrBenchley? Are you afraid to admit that you used a pro-RKBA source for that first quote? Are you afraid someone might read the rest of the article, which includes:

The .50-caliber weapon found in the ashes of Wright's home this week was made by Barrett Firearms of Murfreesboro, Tenn.

The company's vice president, Bob Gates, said Thursday that the weapon — which sells for $7,300 retail — “is a civilian-legal gun and complies with all ATF rules and regulations.”

Barrett Firearms, which sells to the military and to law enforcement, also makes the weapons for big-game hunters and long-range target shooters, Gates said.

“This thing weighs approximately 33 pounds and is 6 feet long,” Gates said. “It is not something you would use to hold up a (convenience)store or pack in your Buick for a drive-by shooting.”

http://www.2ndamendment.com/Miscellaneous/News/20040227-05.htm

Yes, we all face a clear and present danger from those $7,300, 33-pound, 6-foot rifles that "anyone" can purchase.

:freak:

[MrBenchley]

70. Gee, slack, is that all you want?

A link to some quotes?

Slackmaster (#32): "The presence of a few idiots in Nazi uniforms need not spoil a family outing."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=22105


"slackmaster
47. Who is this "RKBA crowd" you keep referring to?
However I will concede that now that I've read it I don't see anything at all wrong with the GOP's platform."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=20403&mesg_id=20484&page=


"slackmaster
38. It's the Big Lie strategy"
"slackmaster
58. Nice try but it's still based on a major LIE"
"slackmaster
65. If I may be so bold as to speak for the entire "RKBA crowd"
We aren't saying they are lying."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=20875&mesg_id=20875

Hey, slack, who was that said: "The surest way to make a monkey of a man is to quote him?"

"Are you afraid to admit that you used a pro-RKBA source for that first quote?"
Actually I didn't feel like paying the Kansas City Star for an archived article, especially since I remembered it 100% correctly.

"we all face a clear and present danger from those $7,300"
Jeepers! Good thing that guy Osama isn't a billionaire or anything, isn't it? Of course, considering Barrett's already sold him a shitload of their "toys for big boys" that's small fucking comfort.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/rooftwo.htm

Every once in a while, I peek but it's rarely worth it, except for the mordant entertainment value. Like this time.

Enjoy!

[slackmaster]

71. Ah, you typed the KC Star quote from memory???

That's pretty amazing, MrBenchley.

Now go see if you can find anyone who believes you.

Don't fall asleep in front of the TV, MrBenchley. You might wake up and see someone in a Nazi uniform and have your whole day ruined.



Jeepers! Good thing that guy Osama isn't a billionaire or anything, isn't it? Of course, considering Barrett's already sold him a shitload of their "toys for big boys" that's small fucking comfort.

If he's still alive and still has that kind of money we have a lot more important things to worry about than a few rifles.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

74. Gee, op...

The second I wonder what a stentorian fan thinks is normal, I'll be sure to let you know.

And yes, I did save slack's quotes, because they show so vividly what his "opinion" is worth. Just as the stentorian shows your value overall so well.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

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[slackmaster]

76. I find it extremely amusing that MrBenchley believes he's discredited me

That he believes that those or ANY of my previous posts in any way devalue my thoughtful, logic-based opinions.

Tell us again how the Roman Catholic Church supports gay rights, MrBenchley.

:crazy:

[MrBenchley]

77. I'm quoting...and you're pouting...

says it all, slack.

[slackmaster]

78. I'm too busy LMAO to pout, MrBenchley

If you'd prefer for me to quote, I'd be happy to oblige.

Here is a sampling of MrBenchley's recent hoots, knee-slappers, and boners for the newbies:

MrBenchley claims smokeless powders used in Europe contain taggants. They don't.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=44507&mesg_id=44563&page=

Rather than acknowledge that the Pink Pistols is a genuine pro-gun group of gay people, he'd rather believe that the Roman Catholic Church supports gay rights:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=20608&mesg_id=20675&page=

He claims proposed Iraqi constitution says "All gun owners must be registered and all guns licensed." It doesn't.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=49018&mesg_id=49135&page=

MrBenchley claimed that kits to convert semi-automatic firearms into fully automatic machineguns are legal (thanks to efforts by the gun lobby), and that anyone can buy one at a gun show.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x50058#53363

Of course, that isn't true at all. See http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter37.txt

MrBenchley admits he hasn't even read a magazine that he's criticized repeatedly, and even posts images of its cover.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=55135&mesg_id=55138

And my all-time favorite, MrBenchley posted two links that were supposed to identify five "assault weapons",

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=55681&mesg_id=55811&page=

But he was wrong on 4 out of 5. Three of them are machineguns and the fourth is a post-ban semiautomatic AK variant which is perfectly legal under the AW ban.

[RoeBear]

91. Thank you for that informative post!

Now I can laugh my ass off too!

[FeebMaster]

46. The government claimed the Branch Davidians had

a .50 machine gun. Strange, though. You think they might have used it at some point if they did have one.

[LibLabUK]

50. Nah..

They were probably too busy shooting each other in the back of the head or sodomising the children.

If ever there was an argument for gun control it was the seige at Waco... those loonies shouldn't have been allowed within 2 miles of a BB gun let alone the arsenal they stockpiled.

[slackmaster]

56. Much of the Branch Davidians' arsenal was in fact illegal

Unregistered machineguns and such. That was why the ATF was trying to execute a warrant in the first place.

What should we do about that? Make it even MORE illegal to have unregistered machineguns?

:dunce:

[LibLabUK]

59. Hmm..

I'm sure I heard that the guns were bought legally, as were the kits used to convert them to fully automatic fire. The crime was putting the two together.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong... but if the sale of the semi-auto weapons and/or the sale of the conversion kits were illegal then they wouldn't have been able to get hold of them as easily.

[slackmaster]

63. Machinegun conversion kits are NOT legal

That's another anti-gun zealot lie that gets parrotted here from time to time.

Please see http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter37.txt

BTW - Doing the actual modification from semi-auto to full-auto almost always involves machine work; irreversible changes are made to the receiver. In the case of the AR-15 rifles illegally modified by the BDs, holes would have been drilled and metal removed from the lower receivers to accommodate the full-auto M16 fire control parts.

[MrBenchley]

65. Careful, you're talking about the gun nuts' little tin god...

"Only now is the size of David Koresh's arsenal coming into focus. A thick computer printout in federal court in Waco, Texas, reveals that the Ranch Apocalypse stockpile contained 59 handguns, 12 shotguns, 94 rifles and 45 machine guns; 1.8 million rounds of ammunition; more than a dozen silencers; a variety of hand grenade parts, and a hefty supply of other weapons components. Among the inventory were two powerful .50-caliber Barrett rifles capable of hitting targets more than a mile away and more than three dozen assault-style rifles such as AK-47s and AR-15s.

How could Koresh assemble such an arsenal? The answer: Pretty easily. For the better part of two years, Koresh avoided much attention and deftly exploited gun laws to assemble his arms cache, largely through gun shows and parcel delivery companies. Agents from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms believe the Branch Davidians spent at least $199,715 on weapons, ammo and related equipment between October 1991 and February 1993. Law-enforcement sources have identified a total of 43 suppliers in 19 states who dealt with Koresh, and virtually all the transactions were entirely legal."

http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetails.do?itemID=233971&extID=10032&oliID=213

So all we have to do is enforce existing laws--in a pig's eye.

[slackmaster]

67. Yes, enforce existing laws

The unregistered machineguns were all illegal.

The unregistered sound suppressors were all illegal.

The hand grenade parts could have been chargeable as conspiracy to build unregistered destructive devices.

[MrBenchley]

66. A little more on the prophet Koresh's playthings...

"A succession of Texas Rangers were called to testify Thursday about their role in recovering more than 300 guns and hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition from the charred wreckage of the Davidian compound.
The Texas lawmen detailed how 60 M-16 machine guns, 60 AK-47 assault rifles, about 30 AR-15 assault rifles, several .50-caliber sniper rifles and dozens of pistols were discovered after the compound burned April 19, 1993. They told jurors in the Davidian wrongful-death suit how some weapons were arrayed in what appeared to be firing positions, and 133 were recovered from the concrete room where bodies of most of the sect's women and all of its children were discovered.
Examples of the arsenal were shown to jurors.
One Ranger, Lt. Ray Coffman, testified that 21 weapons were found among the human remains in the bunker, including one live grenade discovered under the body of a woman."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco213.html

[slackmaster]

69. Gee, they had a lot of illegal weapons

As well as a whole bunch of legal ones.

So what?

[billbuckhead]

6. Gee, my Rottweiler never bit anyone, I'll let the kids play with it

That's the same idiotic logic the weapons crowd bring to these debates. Because 50cal sniper rifles haven't been used yet but obviously are capable of spectacular crimes and terrorism, we should allow them till they do some damage, then act.

[MrSandman]

8. I didn't see a suggestion to let kids play with it...

Since Rotteweilers have killed people, perhaps they should be outlawed as a terrorist could mistrain one and set it loose in Time Square.

Until we get to the dastardly Dachsund.


On edit...Why does anyone need a dog bred to be a killing machine?...s

[FeebMaster]

48. Damn Dachshunds. I once had one take a big chunk out of my

hand. I'm still scarred physically and emotionally. They should be banned.

[MrSandman]

85. They are usually a good judge of character...

That is what I tell anyone mine nips at.;)

[MrBenchley]

10. This plutonium hasn't killed anyone yet...

Let's just dump it down the storm drain...

[papau]

4. You just know the NRA has a .50 caliber "sport" set up by now - with

an infrastructure and mailing list and possibly a magazine and are asking that it be included in the 2008 Olympics! - all funded by the weapons manufacturers! The NRA is the best manufacturers sales group in the world!.

[Romulus]

7. bzzt -thanks for playing

.50 cal sport shooting has been around since the early 1980's

http://www.fcsa.org/articles/about.html

The Fifty Caliber Shooters Assn., Inc. (FCSA) was established in 1985 by a small group of dedicated people who set for themselves the mission to advance the sporting uses of the .50 BMG cartridge. The FCSA is a non-profit organization registered in Tennessee and Utah .

edited to add:

FCSA has over 3500 members and is growing steadily. FCSA has members in twenty-two countries including England , Switzerland , Finland , South Africa , Australia & Canada

*Snip*

The FCSA provides a service to military and law enforcement with research and instruction as well as an active liaison in both communities. Major John Plaster, USAR (ret) has written in his book ULTIMATE SNIPER, &most of today s .50 caliber military sniper rifles were developed without one single dollar of gov t. money. To give credit where credit is due, it has been the private sector perfectionist of the Fifty Caliber Shooters Assn. who has lead the way in refining .50 caliber cartridges, rifles and 1000 yard plus shooting know how.

[OpSomBlood]

11. No, no, no...it's all just a pro-terrorist conspiracy.

There's no legitimate use for this weapon. A terrorist could shoot a pipe at a power plant and blow up the world.

[MrSandman]

14. More gun-control arguments based on...

lies, distortion, and fear-mongering.

BTW, .50 Barretts= Zero aircraft
Boxcutters= Four aircraft

[TX-RAT]

19. Thats Great

Ya know back in the late 60's and early 70's i was pretty good with 105 and 155 howitzers, maybe i can start a club, we'll call it the Howitzer Shooters Assn. Think anybody would want us in there neighborhood. I Think Not.

[Romulus]

24. non sequitor

You can collect all the howitzers you want - just get the BATFE paperwork in order. Too bad you can't shoot ordinance anywhere, though, unlike rifles at a rifle range.

[Romulus]

12. good 'ol Moran (and I mean "moran")

http://www.jewishottawa.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=73051

Jewish Plot? Virginia Congressman Has Gone Punchy

"Moran, a Democrat, is a former boxer-turned-congressman. This week, in Reston, Va., he served notice he wants to square off against the Jews of America. "If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this," he told a gathering of constituents, according to a report in the Reston Connection. "

*snip*
"This time around, the alert patriots of the Aryan Nation have sounded the warning about devious American Hebrews, and New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd has demurely hinted at it a time or two. But in Reston, Moran made the issue of Jewish power his own: "The leaders of the Jewish community are influential enough that they could change the direction of where this is going."

*snip/more*

Yeah, there's a guy who should be lionized. :eyes:


edited to add:

Here's another "ideologically pure" source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A7832-2003Mar10?language=printer

"Moran Said Jews Are Pushing War
Apology Denies Anti-Semitism "

[OpSomBlood]

13. Such nice playmates you've got there.

Further evidence of the scummy anti-semitic gun grabber cause.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[billbuckhead]

34. Those anti-semetic "gungrabbers" like Schumer and Feinstein

Why are you even on this board if you're going say ridiculous stuff like "anti-semetic gun grabbers" that only makes your cause look like a bunch of Freeptards.

[OpSomBlood]

36. It was a sarcastic jab at the ad hominem attacks we keep hearing.

You know..."pro-gun just like Ted Nugent and the scummy Republicans."

[billbuckhead]

45. But Ted Nugent is a famous proponent of unrestricted weapons

and his wife Shebang was even on C-Span. It's not our fault the pro-weapons crowd has such rephrensible spokesmen such Grover Norquist, Charlton Heston, Wayne LaPierre, Tom DeLay, Zell Miller, Dick Cheney, etc. Many Republicans especially women are for sensible gun regulation, these Republican soccer moms delievered Pennsylvania, Michigan, Illinois suburbs for Al Gore, Rendell, Grantholm and Blagonevich.

[OpSomBlood]

51. Some people don't think that "sensible" means "ban them all"

So on that, we just happen to differ.

It's strange, I don't often see the pro-gunners here saying things like "All anti-gunners are raging chronic hypocrites like Dianne Feinstein" or "All anti-gunners are lying propagandists like the VPC and the CSGV."

[billbuckhead]

72. No we see "gun grabber' in almost every other thread

Those for sensible gun control on this forum are labeled "gun grabber" or confused with people who want conficate guns even though McBenchly, CO, myself or any regular DU poster have never said that. I think this tactic is to use posts on this board on other boards to prove that Democrats want to confiscate all guns.

[MrBenchley]

79. For that matter...

We had an "enthusiast" the other day call Jesse Jackson and Carolyn McCarthy pieces of shit....which shows just what this bunch is really all about.

[OpSomBlood]

81. Open the accounting books of Rainbow/PUSH...

Then we can decide whether or not Jesse Jackson is a "piece of shit." The evidence so far seems to indicate that he is.

[billbuckhead]

82. Do all weapons enthusiasts spout right wing talking points?

Jess Jackson is the least of the problems facing this nation. i think this forum will be pretty glum when Kerry wins. If Kerry wins and the Dem take the Congress back I think all these gun enthusisats will commit suicide.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

84. Slackmaster's Fourth Law

4. When the gun control side gets caught in a factual error they switch to ad hominem attack every time.

[MrBenchley]

80. By the way, Bill...

We also often see those idiotic "we need our popguns for the glorious revolution" rants...which I suspect are posted mostly so people can use them on other boards to prove that Democrats advocate violence.

[MrBenchley]

60. If the gun rights crowd don't like their playmates

they shouldn't jump into the sandbox with them...

Let's take another look at those leaders of that Second Amendment Caucus and see what a waste of otherwise useful carbon they are ACROSS THE BOARD.

Marilyn Musgrave
"2003   On the votes that the National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
1995-2003   On the votes that the Planned Parenthood (House) considered to be the most important, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Americans for the Arts considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 20 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Education Association considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 8 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the League of Conservation Voters considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 5 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Sierra Club considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 13 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the American Association of University Women considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Committee for an Effective Congress considered to be the most important in the first quarter of 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Friends Comm. on Nat'l Leg. considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Public Citizen's Congress Watch considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 33 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Americans for Democratic Action considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 15 percent of the time.
2003   According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted more liberal on social policy issues than 5 percent of the Representatives."

On the other hand, some people loved her...and what a bunch THEY were....
"2003   On the votes that the Family Research Council considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Christian Coalition considered to be the most important in 2003 , Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Eagle Forum considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time."

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BS020598

How about the other asshat, Virgil Goode?
"2003   On the votes that the Americans for the Arts considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2001-2002   On the votes that the American Civil Liberties Union considered to be the most important in 2001-2002 , Representative Goode voted their preferred position 7 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 15 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Education Association considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 17 percent of the time.
2002   On the votes that the National Education Association considered to be the most important in 2002, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the League of Conservation Voters considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 20 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Sierra Club considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 13 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the American Association of University Women considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Committee for an Effective Congress considered to be the most important in the first quarter of 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the U.S. Public Interest Research Group considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 10 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the State PIRGs Working Together considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 10 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Friends Comm. on Nat'l Leg. considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Public Citizen's Congress Watch considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 17 percent of the time.
2003   According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2003, Representative Goode voted more liberal on social policy issues than 0 percent of the Representatives.
2003   On the votes that the Alliance for Retired Americans considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 10 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Bread for the World considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time."
But right wing scumbags love this yobbo too...
"2003   On the votes that the Christian Coalition considered to be the most important in 2003 , Representative Goode voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Eagle Forum considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 96 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Family Research Council considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. "

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BC036722

Here's some other members...
John Hostettler-- the imbecile who got caught trying to sneak his gun onto a plane the other day
Tom Tancredo--the anti-immigrant crusader who hired illegal immigrants to remodel his home for cut-throat pay
Sue Myrick--openly racist on the floor of the House.
J.D. Hayworth--MSNBC's favorite Republican gas bag
Roscoe Bartlett--perhaps the stupidest person in the House

Yeah, gun nuts have hitched their wagon to some real stars there...

[slackmaster]

64. Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle

An underhanded method of guilt by association.

[slackmaster]

39. When logical argument fails, break out the Straw Man

Nice try, Bill.

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[slackmaster]

40. The TRUTH about the deadly 50 BMG round!

http://www.geocities.com/robert_frenchu/guns_50cal.html

[OpSomBlood]

47. That was the funniest thing I've seen in weeks.

Thanks, I really needed that.

[slackmaster]

57. I know the author personally

I've been hunting with him (well, sort of) in Nevada.

[OpSomBlood]

61. Notice the correct nomenclature: Assault Sniper Weapon.

Pretty dead-on satire.

[Liberal Classic]

88. "Unregulated"

Shirley, you jest!