When you're using Switzerland, Israel & Washington D.C, as disproving or

[billbuckhead]

proving some theory, you know you're skating on thin ice. If these aren't exceptions to the rule, any rule, what juristrictional examples are? Three of the most unique
governments in the world. Obviously a skilled statistician whould throw these off the wall examples out of a study. Any study. These are the broken records of exceptions the gun "enthusiasts" and terrorism enablers come back with when challenged with International comparisons of crime statistics and the effect legal unregulated weapons sales have on society

It's all very obvious when one looks at this chart on Guncite.
<http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html>.

Notice the only nations with more homocides percapita than the USA are countries that rival us in percapita amount of guns. Notice how the countries below us in gun homocide trend toward less guns per household as the numbers decrease with the best results ending with Japan where guns are illegal and democracy is strong enough to enforce laws.

Oh yeah. Switzerland? They're so whacked they regulate the bullets. Washington D.C.? Washington D.C. is maliciuosly micromanaged by Congress, citizens lack full voting rights, is an orphan to the North and the South and the mayor smokes crack.
Israel? Like Al Franken says on the "Oy,Oy show","And Israel?". "You don't wanna know".
<http://www.guncite.com/swissgun.html>

[MrSandman]

1. If you say...

They're so whacked they regulate the bullets...Did you read all of it?


"In Switzerland you're given a limited number of bullets in a sealed tin. If the seal is broken, you're thrown in jail. If the NRA wants to adopt that system, it would be fine with us." (Source: Notre Dame Magazine Online: "Public Enemy No. 1")
The above is true regarding army issued ammunition. However, "Swiss military ammo must be registered if bought at a private store, but need not be registered if bought at a range. The nation's 3,000 shooting ranges sell the overwhelming majority of ammunition. Technically, ammunition bought at the range must be used at the range, but the rule is barely known and almost never obeyed." (Source: What America can learn from Switzerland is that the best way to reduce gun misuse is to promote responsible gun ownership) In other words, Swiss reservists are free to purchase, possess, and use military ammunition outside the context of direct military service.
http://www.guncite.com/swissgun.html

Of course, any "good statistician" will find the method to prove the point:

Although economists are the leading practitioners of this arcane art, sociologists, criminologists and other social scientists have versions of it as well. It is known by various names, including "econometric modeling," "structural equation modeling," and "path analysis." All of these are ways of using the correlations between variables to make causal inferences. The problem with this, as anyone who has had a course in statistics knows, is that correlation is not causation. Correlations between two variables are often "spurious" because they are caused by some third variable. Econometric modelers try to overcome this problem by including all the relevant variables in their analyses, using a statistical technique called "multiple regression." If one had perfect measures of all the causal variables, this would work. But the data are never good enough. Repeated efforts to use multiple regression to achieve definitive answers to public policy questions have failed.

http://crab.rutgers.edu/~goertzel/mythsofmurder.htm

[billbuckhead]

2. Actually all Swiss gun transactions need a permit --Here's the law

Fact Sheet

Gun Ownership in Switzerland


1. Firearms Legislation in General 1. Firearms Legislation in General

Until January 1, 1999, regulating firearms was
the responsibility of the Swiss Cantons, which had
enacted their own laws and had agreed upon
some basic uniform rules in a Concordat
(Agreement of March 27, 1969 on Trade in
Firearms and Ammunition). In 1993, Swiss voters
approved a constitutional amendment which
authorized the Federal Parliament to pass a
Firearms Control Law aimed at making access to
firearms more difficult.

On June 20, 1997, the Swiss Parliament adopted
a federal law on arms, arms accessories and
ammunition (Arms Act), which entered into force
on January 1, 1999. As a general rule, the Arms
Act requires a permit for each transaction
involving weapons or relevant parts of weapons
purchased from an authorized gun dealer's shop.
Permits for purchasing weapons are issued by the
competent authorities of the Cantons, which have
to ensure that the necessary legal requirements
are fully met. The selling party has to verify the
absence of any legal obstacle on the buyer's side
(18 years of age, absence of an apparent risk to
the buyer or third persons, no entry in the
Register of Convictions for Violent Crimes and
Misdemeanors). Subsequent transfers either by
sale or by another transaction among private
individuals have to be documented through a
written contract between those individuals
themselves, which they have to keep for at least
ten years. In addition, foreign nationals without a
permanent residence permit in Switzerland need
an authorization to purchase weapons or relevant
parts of weapons from private dealers as well.
Foreign nationals must obtain their permit from
the competent authority of the Canton in which
the purchase will take place. In order to obtain a
permit, foreign nationals have to present an
official certificate issued in their home country to
prove that they are entitled to purchase a weapon
or a relevant part of a weapon.

In addition to requiring the above-mentioned
permit to purchase weapons, the Arms Act also
requires a special certificate to bear arms in
public. A person who requests such a permit must
demonstrate that he needs to bear arms in public
in order to protect himself, other persons or
goods against specific risks. To obtain a permit to
bear arms one also has to pass an examination on
the correct handling of weapons as well as a test
on legislation on the use of firearms. Permits are
normally valid for a specific type of weapon and
for the entire territory of Switzerland, but are
limited to five years.
-------------------------snip------------------

<http://www.seark.net/~jlove/swiss.htm>

The information in the Guncite article(a progun site BTW) you're using is from 1990 and the link the article uses for attribution no longer works. My above link is more up to date.

[Columbia]

3. How bout this...

"Due to the long tradition and the special organization of the Swiss armed forces as a militia army, special rules are applicable for army weapons. Between their regular annual service of two or three weeks per year, Swiss soldiers and officers keep their personal weapons at home. After they have left the army, they may keep those arms in order to continue practicing at rifle or pistol ranges managed by local communities. Special rules also govern hunting or sporting rifles.

The use of firearms in crimes in Switzerland is relatively rare. In 1998, official police statistics reported 66 cases in which guns were used in attempted or successful homicides, 64 cases in which they were used to inflict bodily harm and another 475 cases in which firearms were used in armed robberies."

http://www.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home/legaff/Fact/gunown.html

[billbuckhead]

4. And theSwiss still passed stronger gun regulation legistlation

Makes one wonder about the morality of Americans

[MrSandman]

5. As before...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x56428#56502

And the bullet control is, according to your site, ignored.

ed fer spellin...s

[billbuckhead]

7. 4 of the 5 top income states have strong gun regulation

Another gunner hoisted on his own petard once again. I guess brains, income and gun regulation go together. Read em and weep , connecticut, massachusetts, maryland, new jersey. A little further down the list is, hawaii, delaware and illinois.

[MrSandman]

10. Is Chicago another rule-proving exception?

[billbuckhead]

12. Acually Indiana exports a lot of guns that end up in crimes in Chicago

These states could actually be worse if they were wide open about guns. Virgina, Georgia, Mississippi, Indiana, South Carolina are gun crime exporters. Many of these guns used in D.C, Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, New York are bought in other states that have weak laws they don't even bother enforcing. I'll have more on that tomorrow for my weekend sensible weapons management seminar.

A dirty secret is that D.C., Baltimore and Chicago could enforce their laws better, but these neighboring states promiscuous gun regulation like Virginia and Indiana are also contributing factors.

[MrSandman]

6. I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express,

but it seems as if you are confusing causal, correlational, and predictive assessments. Luna is probably more knowledgeable in innumeracy than I am.


on edit...can we say Bellesiles three times?...s

[billbuckhead]

8. 4 of the 5 top income states have very strong guncontrol

I wonder what kind of relationship that is. Want to bet that the vast majority of nations with the top incomes also have strong gun control? I bet countywise one would see the same thing.

[MrSandman]

9. Take the incomes...

Make a prediction.

Get back to us on your confidence intervals.

[billbuckhead]

11. My zipcode 30324 has a very high income and still has high gun crime

Georgia has very weak gun laws and enforcement.