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Detroit and CCW: Remember all the way back to 4 days ago?

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Dolomite Donating Member (689 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:07 AM
Original message
Detroit and CCW: Remember all the way back to 4 days ago?
Crazy how the link to this story has “Freep” in it – but oh well…

Some Detroit woman uses her concealed weapon to defend her life from an ex-con in her house blah, blah… don’t bother reading it if you’re against a citizens right to self-defense, you’ll just get yourself upset:

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/shot29_20040429.htm

“Citizens defending themselves are precisely what backers of Michigan's controversial concealed-weapons law had in mind when they worked to pass the legislation in 2001. The law makes it easier for anyone without felony convictions or mental illnesses to obtain a permit to carry concealed weapons.”
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:09 AM
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1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. the freep
is short or what is the Detroit Freepress.
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Dolomite Donating Member (689 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. Wha?
"The more the criminal element knows that Michigan residents can protect themselves and will protect themselves, the more crime goes down," said state Sen. Alan Cropsey, R-Dewitt.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. "Sen. Alan Cropsey, R-Dewitt"

"The more the criminal element knows that Michigan residents can protect themselves and will protect themselves, the more crime goes down"

And of course you can take what a Republican politician says to the bank, every time. Not to mention what excellent authority they are regarded as at the Democratic Underground.

Nice playmates, etc.

.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Do you regard that as an illogical statement?
That criminals are less likely to attack someone who they think may be armed? Republican or not, was that really off-base to say?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. do read my post # 7 (nm)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. and ... ain't it funny
Some of your friends were just saying ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x54612#54664 - FeebMaster:

"Wouldn't you consider the increase in the posession of body armour by criminals to be the natural response to increasing numbers of people concealed-carrying?"

No, I wouldn't. There just aren't that many people carrying concealed. I think criminals, especially the ones mentioned in the article, are more worried about running into the police and each other. ...
and http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x54612#54666 - slackmaster:

Wouldn't you consider the increase in the posession of body armour by criminals to be the natural response to increasing numbers of people concealed-carrying?

... Criminals tend to be impulsive dumbasses, rather weak in strategic planning. ... Most of them are drug addicts (including alcoholics), preoccupied with short-term problems like where they are going to get their next dose of heroin, crack, meth, or Ripple.

Gosh, I like it when people agree with me. (I like it when they adopt my formatting for responding to other people's posts, too: quote in bold. Seriously.)

So criminals are too impulsive and too dumb and too strung out to organize ways of protecting themselves against concealed weapons carriers ... but have adequate self-control and strategic planning skills and sobriety to think to themselves "hmm, I'd better stop engaging in these risky behaviours like robbing people, 'cause the person I pick might just be one of the small percentage of people toting a gun in his/her pocket/purse". And the crime rate will go down correspondingly.

Uh huh.

.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Some of us don't care if crime rates don't go down
As long as it doesn't go up as a result of people abusing their concealed weapons there is no problem with liberalized concealed carry.

The issue for me is individual choice and self-preservation, not protection for society as a whole. The whole "More Guns/Less Crime" theory has been pretty well debunked, and that's fine with me. As long as shall-issue laws don't cause MORE crime, how can someone object to them other than drawing on their own fear?
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. That is my position...n/t
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. More likely....
""hmm, I'd better stop engaging in these risky behaviours like robbing people, 'cause the person I pick might just be one of the small percentage of people toting a gun in his/her pocket/purse". And the crime rate will go down correspondingly."

they'd think "Do I really wanna get capped today?"

CCW can cause an INCREASE in some crime. The increase can come in the category of property crimes, which are generally seen as being far less risky to the criminal than things like robbery.

I'd rather see a great increase in property crime coupled with a decrease in personal crime than to see the personal crime rate remain the same. It's far safer for all involved.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. if wishes were horses
I'd rather see a great increase in property crime coupled with a decrease in personal crime than to see the personal crime rate remain the same. It's far safer for all involved.

If only we had our druthers, eh? I druther all sorts of things.

Meanwhile, I'll still be waiting for any rational grounds for believing that the knowledge that some (small) percentage of the population is toting guns around is going to deter those sober-as-judges, careful-as-accountants, organized-as-(insert some organized professional category that disorganized me can't think of right now) criminals from committing crimes against either persons or property.

.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Many moons ago...
Kleck did a survey of people in the Florida criminal justice system. He found that the thing which frightened criminals the most was the idea of being confronted by an armed victim, even more than fear of the police. If you need me to find you a cite, I can. Just let me know.

This idea was borne out by the Florida CCW law. When it was originally enacted, there was a sudden string of high-profile crimes against tourists. It seems some criminals were targeting tourists as they came from the airport after flying in and renting cars. The reason given in several high-profile cases (including one of a British tourist who was shot and killed in a rest area) by the criminals after being apprehended was that they knew tourists from out of state couldn't have a Florida CCW permit, and were therefore unarmed. Shortly thereafter, Florida changed their CCW laws, allowing out of state residents to get a Florida CCW permit by mail. The problem promptly disappeared.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. This was on "60 Minutes"...
On a separate note: FL was forced to change their DMV Plates. Rental cars at the time had a registration # that began with a "Y" making them more easily identified.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. IIRC...
the rental companies also got rid of the little stickers used for IDing rental vehicles.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I always peel them off...n/t
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. ah, Kleck
No, I don't think I'll be needing that citation.

To kill two birds with one stone (or, as Ricky said on Trailer Park Boys last week, "to get two birds stoned" ...) -- those rental car licence plates.

Having travelled to Florida numerous times, and having parents who have been there even more, and knowing loads of folks who go to Florida in the winter, and having easy access to Cdn news programming, I know that the licence plates were the overwhelming concern of Cdn tourists, and too obviously the most significant factor in the targeting of tourists. Like, duh. I never once heard this alleged "no concealed weapon permit" rationale offered to explain the phenomenon.

Tourists in rental cars in Florida, e.g. Canadians, tend to be of retirement age and carrying cash and goodies. Somehow I just think it was the fact that they were and old and loaded that marked them as targets, not the fact that they could be presumed not to have guns in their pockets. That's sure what any Cdn tourist I know thought.

I expect you'd be hard pressed to find two Canadian tourists in that category who applied for concealed weapons permits and carried guns during their sojourn. Even yr dumbest criminal could likely have figured that out.

The problem "disappeared" undoubtedly due to combination of factors -- the elimination of the licence plate problem and the manifestation of Florida's firm intent to deal harshly with tourist victimizers being right up at the top.

.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Can you explain...
how a rental license plate would be able to let criminals know that the tourist in question had flown in from Canada, instead of from, say, Texas or Virginia or Kentucky, all of which have CCW, and all of which I personally KNOW have people there with Florida CCW permits?

The benefits Canadians receive is called a "free rider" in economics terminology...
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. dis and dat on a Friday afternoon
... when I have work to deliver to New Caledonia before knocking off ... but they're asleep in New Caledonia just now. And it's Saturday. What the hell do they need my work on Saturday for??

Browsing google ...

http://www.amcits.com/advisory.asp (from US govt consular services)

Drivers should be aware that the frequency with which motorists run red lights is a serious concern throughout Canada, and motorists are advised to hesitate before proceeding on green.
Youse guys just have no clue what a bunch of scofflaws we are up here, do you? ;) The rules for bringing firearms into Canada are summarized there, too. They're pretty simple looking.

Ah, I see the loony Cdn right wing has adopted your theory ... I am *not* offering this source as an authority on any statistics, mind:

http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/Archives/Digests/v03n200-299/v03.n230.txt
(always such a fun site to browse -- oooh, I see this piece is from the reliably obnoxious and right-wing John Robson, a senior member of the editorial staff at one of Conrad Black's former press holdings; and posted by the estimable Garry Breitkreutz, right-wing MP extraordinaire)

American experiments have confirmed this theory. After Florida passed a law allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns in 1987, its murder rate fell 20 per cent while the national rate rose 14 per cent (Florida went from 36 per cent above the average to four per cent below), and handgun-related homicides fell 29 per cent. (There was, however, an upsurge in attacks on tourists because rental car plates were the equivalent of a big neon sign saying "I'm not armed, rob me." Eventually car rental agencies stopped marking their cars.)
Like I said, this is the very first I've heard of this theory, myself.


Well, this is fun, but I'm not having any luck persuading google to give up the goods on this one -- looking for some contemporary discussion of the problem in Canada (i.e. not post facto discussion, by right-wing loons), and not finding any. So let's do anecdotal for a moment.

Generally speaking, the less wealthy, and the younger, tourists from here drive to Florida in their own cars -- like my parents, and me -- or fly and don't rent cars while there. They don't fly there and then rent cars. The one time I flew, I rented a bicycle. The people in the rental cars are the old folks / folks with the bucks -- and the video cameras and what have you.

The people being victimized were apparently disproportionately people driving rental cars. Not people driving cars with Ontario or Quebec plates -- there being orders of magnitude more of them than of Canadians in rental cars, if we consider just Canadians for the moment. If the "they don't have guns" thing were the reason why they were being targeted, why were not far more people with out of state plates on their own cars being hit? There was an abundance of them so the robbers would have been spoiled for choice. And yet they picked the rental cars.

My theory is still: drivers of rental cars tend to be older and/or richer than your average bear.

And also: if the robbers are smart enough to figure out that Canadians, say, didn't have guns with them in Florida when the law didn't permit them to, surely they can be expected to be smart enough to figure out that the vast, overwhelming majority of Canadian tourists are not going to have guns with them in Florida even when the law does permit them to -- and that they would therefore all *still* be safer targets, statistically, than the locals, by your theory, even leaving aside my age/wealth theory for the car renters.

Really, believe me, trust me -- my parents and their friends and neighbours and relatives who go to Florida regularly do not own guns, and are not under any circumstances going to be driving around with guns when they are on vacation in Florida. Nor are I and my partner (who were there last spring), nor are my sister and her partner (who lived there for several months while he attended the famous motorcycle school), nor are my brother and nephew (who were there at Christmas), nor is anyone else I know who might go to Florida.

I'm sure there are people whom I don't know who might do this; perhaps you have some figures about how many of these permits have been issued to foreign visitors since it became possible?

As far as your out-of-state USAmerican rental-car driving victims -- was concealed carrying of weapons permitted in the states you mention at the time these events occurred? Do a whole lot of people fly to Florida from Texas or Kentucky or Virginia and rent cars? Seems kind of unlikely to me.

Canadians would be free riders if they were a somewhat less signficant element of the population in question (potential target tourists, for whatever reason). In fact, they represent a huge component of that population. They might rather be regarded as exercising a rather decisive influence on whatever phenomenon is present. If 5 or 6 out of 10 tourists in rental cars can be expected to be Canadian, and therefore almost certainly "unarmed", my guess would be that the very small possibility that the remaining minority is armed, multiplied by the less than 50% probability that the victim would be in that minority to start with, would be less than a major deterrent to anyone considering taking a stab at a tourist robbery.

.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Hasn't MI had a rash of self defense incidents...
On this board of late?
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm sure I heard the gun nuts saying that shall issue laws would prevent
crime, simply by making criminals too scared to commit any more crimes. Apparently, they're not as scared as we were led to believe.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. since the shall issue CCW thing became a movement...
has person to person crime gone up, down, or stayed the same in the US?

I'd rather more people be burgled than more people be robbed. Burglary generally happens when nobody is home, so the risk to human life is far less. With a robbery, by definiton, there are two people involved, and the odds of one of them getting hurt or killed is far better than in a property crime.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. When I was a young child my mom lied to me to get me to eat spinach
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 10:04 AM by slackmaster
She told me it would make me strong like Popeye the Sailor.

I never fully believed her, but I did as she asked and ended up about an average-sized US adult male with good stamina and adequate but not spectacular physical strength. (Not that I had any real choice. Adults were in the majority and their say-so was law in the home.) I attribute my good health to a lifetime of more or less regular physical exercise, proper nutrition, and not taking up smoking tobacco other than for special occasions like bagging a mountain peak or a New Year's Eve celebration.

AFAIK there is no scientific evidence for any positive correlation between spinach consumption and vigor. It provides some essential nutrients that can easily be acquired from other foods. I cannot attribute any of my present condition to spinach eating one way or another.

I've always detested the flavor and texture of canned spinach. In early childhood that was the only kind I'd ever had. When I finally tried the fresh version in my teens - mom started incorporating it into her fine dinner salads - I quickly took a liking to it. As an adult I eat it whenever it's fresh and reasonably priced. I have some growing in my garden right now if the snails haven't clobberred it yet.

Spinach failed to live up to the promise of superior fortitude on which its consumption was hawked. OTOH eating it has never done me any harm AFAIK. Am I to resent dear sweet mom for "selling" consumption of the slimy, tinny-tasting green glop on false pretenses? At age 46 how would it look for me to dedicate a Web site called momliedtome.com to whine about her deceitfulness? No, I'm going to act like an adult and take the attitude that although she was feeding me a line of BS to get me to do what she thought was essential for my good health and turned out not to be so, I'm no worse off today for eating the stuff than I would be if I had steadfastly refused it.

Has anyone else here ever been the "victim" of a harmless lie or an honest mistake that was told with good intentions?
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