ATF Sanctioning 'Straw' Gun Sales since 2006, Houston Dealer Says

[jpak]

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/111117-atf-sanctioning-straw-gun-sales-since-2006-houston-dealer-says

HOUSTON - One of the largest gun sellers in Texas says the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms was sanctioning questionable sales of weapons likely bound for Mexican drug cartels long before Eric Holder became US Attorney General.

Months before Americans became familiar with the gun running debacle known as "Fast and Furious", Houston firearms dealer Carter's Country was blowing the whistle on ATF-sanctioned straw sales to customers who likely represented Mexican drug cartels.

The Houston-based gun dealer felt compelled to speak out after being linked to scores of firearms seized from drug thugs across the border

In a December 2010 interview with FOX 26, attorney Dick Deguerin said Carter’s Country went through with the sales because ATF told them to.

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[PoliticAverse]

1. Did they get anything from the ATF in writing ? n/t

[spin]

2. Every citizen should be outraged at this scandal ...

It doesn't matter if you are pro or anti civilian firearm ownership or if you are a Republican, a Democrat or an Independent. You should insist on and support a thorough and possibly independent investigation of government programs that allowed the purchase of firearms by criminals engaged in smuggling weapons to Mexico.

Some feel that the Republicans are using Operation Fast and Furious to bash the Obama administration, the ATF and the Justice Department which while true totally ignores the fact that a similar program called Operation Wide Receiver was in place during the Bush administration.

It took a lot of effort and expense to set up our current system to prevent straw purchases and to curtail gun smuggling to Mexico and to the streets of our cities. Willingly allowing lethal weapons to "walk" is totally and absolutely unforgivable. These weapons have not only led to the death of one of a U.S. Border Patrol agent but have caused perhaps as many as two hundred deaths in Mexico. The latter fact is rarely mentioned by the media.

First we need to find out everybody who was involved in the decision to implement these programs and we need to hold them accountable. It matters not what administration they served under.

We also need to find better ways to stop the straw purchase of firearms and prevent gun smuggling. This may mean more boots on the ground and the expenditure of far more money to the resulting finance law enforcement activity.

As a gun owner I fully support efforts to insure that firearms sold at U.S. gun stores end up only in the hands of responsible citizens in OUR nation. If I were a person who had a personal dislike of firearms in civilian hands, I would still feel that our current existing laws should be enforced and not bypassed.

Many of these firearms are still unaccounted for and will be used for further criminal activity both in Mexico and possibly here in the United States.

[jmg257]

4. Ditto.

;)

[AzWorker]

3. This was posted before and oddly enough fell on deaf ears...

ATF/FBI/DOJ have been colluding to send guns to mexico and pump up the stats for YEARS.

When will DOJ quit STONEWALLING and let us get to the bottom of the matter.

Why were the failed tactics of Wide Receiver 1 & 2 allowed to be repeated in Fast and Furious with NONE of the safeguards that WR 1 & 2 had in place?

[SteveM]

5. I have posted numerous BATF stories, I included "earlier" schemes...

by that agency, including "Wide Receiver."

I also speculated that DOJ may stonewall further investigation by holding up "Wide Receiver" like a cross before Dracula if the GOP continues "Gun Walker/"Fast & Furious" investigations.

Good questions. If BATF (and other agencies) did not put in any safeguards, and truly let the guns "walk," then they may have had other goals. Further speculation: The guns were NOT lost, but were intended to (1) go to a rival cartel (Sinaloa as opposed to Zetas); or (2) they were lost (didn't matter) in order to construct a case for restricting gun shops in the border states.

[iverglas]

6. "in order to construct a case for restricting gun shops in the border states"

Is that you speculating that there?

I advise caution. I'd have thought you'd know.

[SteveM]

7. Please re-read. You're is a pointless post. nt

[iverglas]

8. okay, that was you speculating

It was pretty clear to me, I just wanted to offer you the opportunity to explain that you had misspoken, if that was the case.

[SteveM]

9. What? Another big dumb catfish on stage? Creating feed back? nt

[gejohnston]

12. don't think you could get a conviction on this one Councillor

read the year. Think Dick Cheney. Cheney and Rove are the kind of people who could think of something like that. It kind of provides evidence for my conspiracy theory.
I remember Seymor Hersh writing something about Cheney loyalists staying behind to screw things up. Some of these in the ATF? Continue Wide Receiver and call it FF but without telling the Mexicans about it? While they are at it, forget to tell or misinform Holder? Then accuse this administration of a false flag false flag excuse.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2009/03/... /

[iverglas]

13. I have no idea what you are talking about

I made it quite clear I was talking about this:

Further speculation: The guns were NOT lost, but were intended to (1) go to a rival cartel (Sinaloa as opposed to Zetas); or (2) they were lost (didn't matter) in order to construct a case for restricting gun shops in the border states.

There was nothing about Cheney or Rove or their alleged loyalists in that.


... and a typo in the subject line again ...

[gejohnston]

16. there was nothing about the current administration in that either

or the party affiliations of those involved. He could have been referring to rouge elements in ATF wanting more power in 2006 or be in fact be Cheney loyalists in charge or both.

[AzWorker]

10. Anecdotal evidence.....

Remember thats what the DC ATF supervisor told the PHX ATF supervisor in one of the released DOJ/ATF email, he hoped that F&F would provide the anecdotal evidence they required to push for border State long gun reporting...

So yes, ATF seemed to be making sales happen and expected to get some more gun regulations out of it...

[iverglas]

14. may I see that email please?

Thank you.

[AzWorker]

15. Here is a link

From the summer of 2010....

Thanks

[iverglas]

17. what an appallingly unfounded allegation you made

It was: So yes, ATF seemed to be making sales happen and expected to get some more gun regulations out of it...

What you have actually produced in your attempt to back that up is the complete opposite.

It appears quite clear from that memo that there had been an observed phenomenon that indicated the existence of a problem, and that in order to take action to combat the problem (which is, you know, what governments tend to do), evidence of the phenomenon was being collected.

Otherwise, the memo would pre-date the phenomenon, or some other method of collecting the evidence that had been allegedly generated for the alleged purpose in question would have been organized from the outset, duh; somebody wouldn't be casting around trying to find and collect it post facto, for pity's sake.

Your allegation is really quite atrocious. Since you have completely failed to back it up, I would really recommend retracting it. I know that if I'd been fool enough to make it and then offer as proof something that tended to prove the complete opposite, I'd be wishing I could turn back the clock, myself.


Sure is interesting where one finds that text on the internet ...

http://www.google.ca/search?complete=0&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=612&q=%22see+if+these+guns+were+all+purchased+from+same+ffl%22&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=2

[AzWorker]

18. Ummm...

Chait wants the info on Fast and Furious sales to use to further a proposed gun control regulation. The 'observed phenomenon' in this instance was encouraged by ATF. It does not matter when the memo was produced, they are taking data from sales they encouraged and using it to further an agenda.

They manufactured a crisis

It should be simple to understand.

[iverglas]

19. "It" is quite simple to understand

Have no fear.

You (and your fellow travellers) are taking a sequence of events and inverting it, and ascribing intent ex post facto.

I sure know what you (and your fellow travellers) would be saying if anyone else did that:

Gun militants agitated for widespread access to permits to carry concealed firearms.
A holder of a permit to carry a concealed firearm killed someone in cold blood.
Oh look! The gun militants were motivated by a desire for people to be killed!

Okay, that isn't all that ridiculous ...

[Oneka]

21. appallingly unfounded allegations?

I think not. That poster ,in fact, made two allegations,lets parse them out shall we?

#1:

ATF seemed to be making sales happen

If you believe the article in the OP:

In a December 2010 interview with FOX 26, attorney Dick Deguerin said Carter’s Country went through with the sales because ATF told them to.

Allegation # 1, easily seen to be not "unfounded"

#2:

and expected to get some more gun regulations out of it

Who expected to get more regulations?

The BATFE.


what regulations did they expect to get out of it?

This one :http://www.scribd.com/doc/61159256/ATF-Multiple-Rifle-Sale-Reporting-Requirement-Letter

Accompanied by this, AFT form: http://www.scribd.com/doc/61164591/Report-of-Multiple-Rifle-Sales

what is "it"?

It: is ATF making sales happen.


who is Mark R. Chait?

He works for the BATFE. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/markrchait


Who is Bill Newell: An BATFE supervisor: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/28/nation/la-na-fast-furious-emails-20110729

A key player in the "Fast and Furious" program.


Did the presented Email, support that the allegation, that ATF expected to get some more gun regulations out of it?

Mark Chait, in his position as an ATF employee made this statement to Bill Newell:

We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales.

Read the Email again, if you believe its content, the allegation is well supported, and not unfounded in the least.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x480442#480903

It doesn't really matter which of the allegations came first. They are both easily "founded" by the information presented.

[Hoopla Phil]

22. Here is your problem. YOU don't know what the definition of "unfounded" is.

It simply means, "I don't want to believe that".

Seee, the problem is yours.

Do I really need the sarcasm thingy?

[Oneka]

23. My God

How could I have been so ignorant , and shortsighted?
:argh:

[iverglas]

27. "How could I have been so ignorant , and shortsighted?"

I wouldn't know about that, but maybe there's some connection to how you could have put together that completely unintelligible abstract art of little boxes and random words and phrases in your previous post.

Just to try to get it clear in my head: are you saying that the ATF incited illegal gun sales in order to get new gun control measures imposed?

Yes or No will suffice.

[Oneka]

28. What i said

is more along the lines of this:

Your allegation is really quite atrocious. Since you have completely failed to back it up, I would really recommend retracting it. I know that if I'd been fool enough to make it and then offer as proof something that tended to prove nothing at all, I'd be wishing I could turn back the clock, myself.


Why would i possibly answer your question with a simple yes or no, when so much more is appropriate. I find it quite insulting that you would
even ask your question in such a manner.
you seldom answer questions with a simple yes or no, why would you expect anyone else to?

[AzWorker]

29. Well...

It is obvious that they were willing to use gun sales they incited to get new gun control measures imposed.

[iverglas]

30. not so healthy

It is obvious that they were willing to use gun sales they incited to get new gun control measures imposed.

You are claiming to deduce this from the memo you posted?

There must be something there in invisible pixels that I'm not seeing. Will it help if I spray lemon juice on my monitor?

[Hoopla Phil]

20. Holy shit!!! THAT is the smoking gun that proves

this was used to further a gun control agenda - by our own government!

[iverglas]

31. holy shit indeed!!!!!

Whoopsla, eh?

Dangerous days in the dungeon ...

[Oneka]

32. Not sure about a smoking gun,

but why did Mark Chait send an email inquiring about anecdotal
cases, to support a demand letter, several days AFTER, the demand
letter was sent? Doesnt the horse go before the cart???

[AzWorker]

33. 2010 vs 2011....

This email predates the demand letter sent to FFL's by a year

[Oneka]

34. Thanks for the correction.

i looked at that email on my phone, guess i should have waited to see it more clearly on a real screen before posting.

[Oneka]

11. The times , they are a changin.....

Very few - but thousands of assault rifles illegally purchased by straw buyers in border states

by willing greedy NRA-loving gun dealers end up in Mexico every year.

Tghe NRA looks the other way.

The ATF is trying to stop this,

yup

emphasis added

. No one is accusing the ATF of gunrunning - the "whistle bowers" objected to the investigation tactic...

Big Diff

yup

This has been discussed here http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4745509#4745947
Back in February, where you denied that ATF Sanctioned illegal straw purchases, and in fact said that "the ATF was trying to stop this"

What a difference 8 months can make eh?

So now were going over this story again,?? with FOX NEWS as your source??

[friendly_iconoclast]

24. More "We have always been at war with Eastasia" revisionism from the OP

That thread is chock-full of juicy goodness:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4745509#4745934

jpak (1000+ posts) Wed Feb-23-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. Law enforcement cannot compel you to break the law


http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4745509#4745652

jpak (1000+ posts) Wed Feb-23-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Did it ever occur to you that this story may be NRA teabagger agitprop???


http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4745509#4745696


jpak (1000+ posts) Wed Feb-23-11 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. No one is accusing the ATF of gunrunning


http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4745509#4745848

jpak (1000+ posts) Wed Feb-23-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
62. Republicans prevented the ATF from monitoring multiple US gun sales used by Mexican gunrunners

[Oneka]

25. Juicy Goodness

has happened A LOT over the last several months.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=426176&mesg_id=426176

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/harveywasserman.com/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=433111&mesg_id=433149


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www//seattletimes.nwsource.com/counterpunch.org/www.travelblog.org/VC/www.fas.usda.gov/excredits/www//seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/www.fas.usda.gov/excredits/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=380150&mesg_id=381416

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www//seattletimes.nwsource.com/counterpunch.org/www.travelblog.org/VC/www.fas.usda.gov/excredits/www//seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/www.fas.usda.gov/excredits/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=380150&mesg_id=381421

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/harveywasserman.com/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=404926&mesg_id=404931


These blasts from the past are quite amusing.

Not sure why the sudden change of heart, about what the ATF has been up to, maybe FOX NEWS, is using subliminal messages, on this one.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Quite the source you've got there.

Oh boy. Fox fucking news.