If guns don't kill people....

[Joe the Revelator]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_I2uQkGxIykM/TBMXxF_sbkI/AAAAAAAALM4/peLtvlYSdDg/s1600/toast+fyft.jpg

[Kennah]

Actually, people toast toast. Never seen a rogue toaster running free on the streets.

[Hippo_Tron]

4. You clearly haven't watched enough children's movies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brave_Little_Toaster_%28film%29

[Kennah]

7. A rogue toaster in a children's movie? Get a rope. Someone will swing.

[petronius]

53. I'm guessing he hasn't watched Red Dwarf either

:)

That talking toaster was just one power-surge away from a full-blown postal rage...

[Remmah2]

20. Violence is in the hands of the holder.

[krispos42]

81. I've seen them flying in swarms, though!

[TheWraith]

103. ...

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2004-06-10

[MrSlayer]

1. Yes,

Toasters only toast things when a person make it happen.

[petronius]

2. I think it means that people toast toast

But toasters do sometimes toast people.

But this is good: if I'm ever being pursued by a dinosaur, I now know the kind of question that will make it stop and think. :toast: <-- More toast!

[Kennah]

8. If you threw a plugged-in toaster into a bathtub, then anyone in there would be toast.

[Cid_B]

14. I really thought google image would turn up a toaster gun

Instead I got this...



edit: Never mind...

[ChandlerJr]

3. Actually toasters toast bread making it into to toast

so the whole argument is specious. You don't put toast into a toaster, you put bread into a toaster and get toast out of it.

It's like saying you need a new hot water heater, if you have hot water already you don't need a heater, what you need is a cold water heater.

Help me out here Boojatta!

[Travis_0004]

5. If guns kill people. then spoons made Rosie Odonnel Fat, and my pen caused my spelling mistakes.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. People toast people too

Such as at weddings etc

[The Straight Story]

9. Guns don't kill people - states do (nt)

[LAGC]

28. DUzy!

:toast:

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

10. Darth Vader finds everyones' lack of faith in toast troubling

[Joe the Revelator]

15. I want to buy that.

[defendandprotect]

11. 30,000 gun shot deaths every year -- what if we only sell guns and no ammunition?

[hack89]

13. What if we leave people's civil rights alone? nt

[Upton]

17. Why would you want to deprive someone of the right of self defense?

and folks can make their own ammo anyway..

[defendandprotect]

21. 30,000 gun shot deaths every year doesn't sound like sane "self-defense" ... and how many woundings?

[Upton]

23. You do realize..

gun control only affects the law abiding...criminals are going to have their weapons regardless. So, I ask...why would you want to deprive a law abiding citizen of the ability to protect themselves and their loved ones from this threat?

[defendandprotect]

46. Law abiding are being attacked by the violence the RW has created ....

and GOPs/NRA was a large part of creating violent conditions in America --

GOP radicalized the NRA -- and used it to target not only liberals and moderates

in the Dem Party, but in their own party as well -- thereby moving the Congress to

the right --

You got your guns -- we got a violent America -- and lost much of the New Deal --


We need countrywide gun controls -- and owners have to have insurance which will

provide coverage for any damage done by the owners' gun --

[gejohnston]

58. America is much less violent now

than before WW2.
The violence is organized crime killing each other. That is the vast majority of it other than the rare but heavily publicized nutcase.

We do have country wide gun control since the 1930s, and local and state controls since the early 19th century. The NRA has done nothing to create violence in the US, get real.
So, do you think MS-13 and the mob is going to take out insurance to provide coverage done by their guns?

[defendandprotect]

72. You're saying the RW has given us a safer America? War is peace ... Guns are safe?

How do you then explain 36,000 dead from gun shot wounds ever year - ?

And, who even knows what the numbers are on those wounded every year ???


Presume you mean the Drug War and its gun violence which is endangering the lives

of citizens everywhere?

Soon we'll be Mexico -- !!

We do not have uniform state laws -- and at the point we are reaching with gun violence in

cities, rather than simply increasing gun control and increasing enforcement, I think

we're going to have to see more widespread banning of handguns.

Think about it, the RW couldn't run this fake Drug War without access to illegal weapons.


I think gun manufacturers shoudl be the last resort on paying for the damage that guns do --

and that private, individual owners should be carrying insurance for every gun they have vs

any possible damage done with that gun -- !!

[gejohnston]

84. not what I said at all

and the federal laws are uniform.

Think about it, the RW couldn't run this fake Drug War without access to illegal weapons.
by definition, illegal weapons possessed and used illegally, as in violation of gun laws.

Do you copy and past or is that your only argument?

Violent crime, including gun violence, has been dropping for the past twenty years. No, we won't be Mexico or South Africa anytime soon.

[spin]

85. There are few guns in Japan yet there is an extremely high rate of suicide ...

Suicide in Japan

Suicide in Japan has become a significant problem nationally.<1><2> Factors in suicide include unemployment (due to the economic recession in the 1990s), depression, and social pressures. Suicide is predominately the result of a combination of factors such as healthcare provision, social attitudes, cultural influences and economic distress.<3> In 2007, the National Police Agency revised the categorization of motives for suicide into a division of 50 reasons with up to three reasons listed for each suicide.<4> Suicides traced to losing jobs surged 65.3 percent while those attributed to hardships in life increased 34.3 percent. Depression remained at the top of the list for the third year in a row, rising 7.1 percent from the previous year.<4>

The rapid increase in suicides since the 1990s has raised concerns. For example, 1998 saw a 34.7% increase over the previous year.<1> Japan has one of the world's highest suicide rates, especially amongst industrialized nations,<5> and the Japanese government reported the rate for 2006 as being the ninth highest in the world.<6>

In 2009, the number of suicides rose 2 percent to 32,845 exceeding 30,000 for the twelfth straight year and equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people.<7> This amounts to approximately one suicide every 15 minutes.<3> However, this figure is somewhat disputed since it is arguably capped by the conservative definition of "suicide" that has been adopted by the Japanese authorities, which differs from the WHO's definition. Some people thus suggest a rather larger figure of 100,000 suicides a year. Currently, the conservative per year estimate is still significantly higher than for any other OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) country. In comparison, the UK rate is about 9 per 100,000, and the US rate around 11 per 100,000.<3> In 2007, Japan ranked first among G8 countries for female suicides and second, behind Russia, for male suicides.<8>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan

Firearms may be used to commit suicide but obviously they do not cause it or we would have a much higher rate of suicide than Japan.

[SteveM]

91. Since WWII we've had 7 Democratic presidents. nt

[PavePusher]

94. Now it's 36K, your numbers are going up... what is your source? n/t

[PavePusher]

95. "Think about it, the RW couldn't run this fake Drug War without access to illegal weapons."

Huh? You'll need to unpack that a bit for clarity...

[X_Digger]

64. Your interlocutor doesn't believe we landed on the moon, believes 9/11 was an inside job..

and believes man was a vegetarian until the rise of "patriarchal religion" or somesuch.

Don't expect a coherent answer.

[metalbot]

24. The 30k figure includes suicides

In 2007 (the year for which I had the easiest stats handy from wikipedia) only about 40% of those were actually homicides, making homicide by gun approximately as common as drunk driving fatalities. I could probably make a better argument for the prohibition of alcohol (which has no redeeming values other than being fun) than the prohibition of firearms (which have practical self defense value in addition to their sporting value).

Depending on which study you believe (including one conducted by the DoJ), people use guns to defend themselves between 500k and 2.5m times per year in the US (although the methodology used for some of the larger numbers is questionable). The vast majority of these incidents don't involve shots fired. If you'd like further reading, you can google "Defensive Gun Incidents", and you'll find links to a variety of interpretations of these studies.

[spin]

36. Actually alcohol in moderation may be heathy...

Alcohol use: If you drink, keep it moderate
Alcohol use is a slippery slope. Moderate drinking can offer some health benefits. But it's easy to drink too heavily, leading to serious health consequences.
By Mayo Clinic staff

It sounds like a mixed message: Drinking alcohol may offer some health benefits, especially for your heart. On the other hand, alcohol may increase your risk of health problems and damage your heart.

It sounds like a mixed message: Drinking alcohol may offer some health benefits, especially for your heart. On the other hand, alcohol may increase your risk of health problems and damage your heart.

***snip***

Health benefits of moderate alcohol use

Moderate alcohol consumption may provide some health benefits. It may:

Reduce your risk of developing heart disease
Reduce your risk of dying of a heart attack
Possibly reduce your risk of strokes, particularly ischemic strokes
Lower your risk of gallstones
Possibly reduce your risk of diabetes
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024

edited for HTML error

[defendandprotect]

47. 30,000 DEATHS doesn't include the woundings every year -above the deaths --- !!!

If you understand the RW you understand that they can only rise on violence --

and RW efforts to create a violent America and to make citizens frightened of one

another is a large part of that -- the Drug War, of course, plays a large role in

both the actual effort and the RW theater --


If you understand the RW, you understand their use of wealth to create movements --

they radicalized the NRA to targete liberals and moderates not only the Dem Party

but in their own party -- thereby moving the Congress far to the right.


You got guns -- we lost just about everything else!

[hack89]

31. How many of those are sucides? nt

[jeepnstein]

32. Alot of that...

is criminal on criminal violence fueled by our Prohibition policy on certain drugs. The guys engaging in the drug trade have long international smuggling routes and don't really pay much attention to the law anyway. The only reason they buy their guns locally is because it's easier. They'd import them if they had to, just like their cocaine and cruddy skunk weed marijuana.

[defendandprotect]

48. True ... if we keep at it ... the fake Drug War and GOPs/NRA can turn us into Mexico ... !!

[gejohnston]

56. Given that

Mexico has very strict gun laws, and the Zetas are getting their guns from the southern border and abroad (unless you can find a gun shop in the US that has a good selection of machine guns, rocket launchers, grenades, crew serviced weapons like heavy machine guns and mortars........
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/09/07/mexico.gun.training/
http://davekopel.org/Espanol/Mexican-Gun-Laws.htm

[defendandprotect]

57. That's why we need universal gun control -- and not GOP/NRA "wild west America" -- !!!

[gejohnston]

60. We do have federal laws

Here they are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Ascione1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act

Edit to add one more thing, as someone who studied the history of the "wild west" and as someone who grew up in that part of the country (and had relatives old enough to remember)
"Little House on the Prairie" depicted that time and place much more accurately than "Good Bad and the Ugly."

[defendandprotect]

65. We need stronger gun control laws on every aspect of gun ownership ---

and we need consistency between states --

We also need every gun to have a LOCK on it --

And every owner should have their weapon insured sufficient to cover any

damage that it might cause --

[gejohnston]

82. umm

how does a gun cause damage? Cars don't cause damage unless http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085333/">Christine was a documentary. How does a gun do that? Since the problem is gangsters shooting each other, do the Hell's Angels and MS-13 get special group rates?

[SteveM]

92. Coming Soon! Ken Burns' "Prohibition," PBS, October 2nd. nt

[Francis Marion]

93. Your personal opinions and feelings

are duly noted. Now what?

Do we respect only those portions of the Bill of Rights aligned with your emotional comfort index?

Nixon didn't feel like respecting the Fourth Amendment... should he get a pass on Watergate?

I would challenge you, if you have not already done so, to inform yourself about the reality of 80,000,000 American gun owners- people who don't commit crimes, respect the rights of others, and don't bother anybody day by day.

The microcosm of gun criminals- many of whom, as felons, have been deprived of the right to own guns through due process of law- don't deserve to influence the amount of Liberty afforded to the rest of us.

Suppose a newspaper editor prints up a libelous story. Is the answer to take away our publishing rights, shut down the press?

Obviously, no. Society makes the editor answer for what he did to a judge- punish the criminal, and leave the rights of The People alone.

[chibajoe]

27. 39,000 vehicle deaths every year, what if we only sell cars and no gas?

It would save more lives than if we stop selling ammo, especially since it's a lot harder to make (and stockpile) your own gas than it is to make your own ammo.

[defendandprotect]

49. Let's go back to the TUCKER concept for safe cars -- and electric cars/solar batteries ... !!!

Cars are doing more than killing passengers --

Capitalism and the oil industry -- those private interests who control our

natural resources -- have created Global Warming --


As for guns -- we need universal gun control -- countrywide --

LOCKS ON EVERY GUN --

And no gun should exist without insurance coverage by the owner which would

pay for any damage done by the owners' gun -- !!

[Kennah]

67. Tucker was ahead of his time, but the safety in cars today far exceeds anything he did then

Safer cars isn't a fix for stupid and negligent drivers.

Gun control isn't a fix for criminality.

[defendandprotect]

71. ROFL -- yes, quite some "bumpers" made of tin foil and foam ... !!! ROFL

Guns aren't safe -- not by any means -- 36,000 dead every year --

and who even knows what the numbers are on the wounded --

Gun owners need to begin to pay for the damage that guns do --

$38,000 per wounding -- and more!

[Kennah]

73. But it's perfectly OK for car drivers to drive without insurance, and maim, and kill.

Right. You're not showing any bias or inconsistency.

[one-eyed fat man]

104. Text while driving...

When all the bimbos I see texting and driving 'naturally select' themselves into extinction I'll be happier.

I'd rather they just swerve into bridge abutments instead of crossing into oncoming traffic and taking out innocents.

[gravity556]

37. Where does everyone get this 30k number?

The NIJ stats were less than half that. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/weapons.cfm

No interest in the truth on the anti-rights side, is there? Just spin and lies.

[defendandprotect]

52. Here's a Yahoo search page ranging from 30,000 to 36,000+/40,000 gun deaths every year -- !!

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Agi_75ra8xhvidq0nLOvteSbvZx4?p=How+many+gun+deaths+in+America+every+year%3F&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-yie8



I'm having trouble pulling up a figure on yearly gun shot woundings in America --

old statistics --

[gravity556]

78. So there's an additional 15-17k suicides, is what you're saying.

Why do you presume that they wouldn't have killed themselves if they somehow couldn't get a gun? Plenty of ways to shuffle off the mortal coil other than guns, though they are probably the most painless.

Why try and distort your position by trying to include suicide in the statistics? It discredits you, because exaggeration is just as dishonest as lying. It's like the Brady idiots trying to say that there are a kagillion children killed by guns every year, obviously trying to pull sympathy by painting it as innocent babes, cut down by gunfire. The problem is that, while there are innocent kids killed by gunfire, they also include the 19 (and in a couple of cases, 20 and 21 year olds) year old gang bangers and the bangers even younger than that who kill and are killed over illegal activities.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

Here are the actual FBI crime stats for 2010. Could you please show me where you get the extra 17 thousand gun crime related murders, please? The total firearms murders in 2010 were 8775, so either the FBI is missing more than half the murders in the country, or someone is outright lying about the numbers. And since I'm disinclined to take the word of the anti-rights side (primarily due to their institutional dishonesty), a cite from a CREDIBLE organization (the NIJ would suffice) would be appreciated.

Edited because I misread the table-the actual firearms murders were less than 10 thousand.

[Uncle Omar]

38. Ban ALL Guns

Ban ALL Guns

[spin]

39. Yup, we lived in a very peaceful world before guns were invented ...

It was a virtual paradise.

People just carried fairly harmless weapons like swords and knifes back then.

Take a few minutes of your time and watch this video that compares the damage a .357 magnum can inflict compared to what a Cold Steel Gurkha Kukri can do. Imagine facing an attacker armed with one of these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwS9bV5X488

.

Or watch this video of a Cold Steel Scottish Dirk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4n9TI7Y7Sc&feature=related

[oneshooter]

80. Right, turn yours over to the police for destruction, to show your support for your cause. n/t

[PavePusher]

96. I do hope you are very physically fit and well trained in hand-to-hand combat. n/t

[SteveM]

90. Then I'll load up with Texas Toast (but the cleaning job. Yeech!) nt

[quaker bill]

12. Guns usually don't kill people

except for the occasional misfire perhaps.

Guns are a tool that makes killing people easier and less risky. Yes, people could in fact just use baseball bats. But with a baseball bat, your advantage over the target is not as large, and you have to get alot closer to be effective. This is why we issue the military firearms, not baseball bats. Both would be perfectly effective weapons in that either could get the job done, but we prefer our soldiers to have greater advantage over the other side. Guns facilitate killing people, this is why they were invented.

In fact an extension of this principle is why we now prefer standoff missles and drones to firearms and the "boots on the ground" needed to use them. Our troops have an even bigger advantage flying a drone from Kansas than they do with the best rifle they can carry in Kabul.

[William769]

16. Guns don't kill people.

The bullets do.

[defendandprotect]

22. "Guns facilitate killing people, this is why they were invented" ...

Guns facilitate killing people, this is why they were invented.

In fact an extension of this principle is why we now prefer standoff missles and drones to firearms and the "boots on the ground" needed to use them. Our troops have an even bigger advantage flying a drone from Kansas than they do with the best rifle they can carry in Kabul.


Right -- and soon we'll have a pill we can give to someone so that they'll feel like they're

being tortured but no one would actually have to do the dirty work --

Rather, what you're proving is the level of insanity America has reached in its violent thinking

and violent actions --

[William769]

26. So your saying Bullets don't kill people?

Thats insanity. All I was doing was pointing out what actually kills people.

[defendandprotect]

40. Did you notice the quotes? What I'm saying is what I actually said ... violence is insanity -- !!!

Rather, what you're proving is the level of insanity America has reached in its violent thinking

and violent actions --

[PavePusher]

97. Right, because there was no violence before guns....

Sheesh....

[GreenStormCloud]

29. Face it - the world isn't all lollipops and rainbows. N/T

[defendandprotect]

41. If you're a victim of RW propaganda, you might think that -- but you

might reflect on the creation of the Drug War -- who it benefits and who it

controls -- and what the violence of the drug war does to us all --


You might also reflect on what your TV and movies are showing you -- a major

effort to create the concept of a violent America -- the creation of RW

ideas and propaganda over 40 years and more now.


You might also reflect on the role the GOPs/NRA plays in creating concepts of

a violent America -- and indeed increasing violence in Amereica -- all to the

benefit of the right wing.

[GreenStormCloud]

61. I have posted many time that I am against the War on Drugs.

All drugs should be legalized, regulated for purity, no advertising, and moderately taxed.

The shows that are on TV & movies are there because people WANT to watch them. Because people VOLUNTARILY bought tickets or tuned in.

Violent crime is decreasing in America. Down 6% from last year. But it hasn't reached zero, so I am armed when I am out and about.

[Remmah2]

30. Muggers, Car Jackers and Rapist United International

Appreciate your efforts.

[defendandprotect]

42. GOPs/NRA have worked together for this bounty of violence --

Patriarchy and violence are mirror images of one another --

GOP radicalized the NRA and used it to target not only liberals and moderates in

the Democratic Party, but liberals and moderates in their own party --

thereby moving Congress to the right --


30,000 gun deaths every year -- who benefits from that -- ?

And how many woundings which Americans pay for -- ?

A violent America -- and the selling of it -- only benefits the Rightwing --!!

[We_Have_A_Problem]

33. The gun isnt the problem

It is the person using it.

The gun is merely a tool which can be used for good, bad or completely neutral purposes.

I'm sorry you seem to think a device has magical powers, but that's really your problem, not mine.

[defendandprotect]

43. The gun is a weapon of violence -- are you actually trying to deny that -- ???

And in an effort to fool whom? Yourself or us?

Only YOU are suggesting that weapons have "magical powers" --

I think we all understand what weapons are --

[PavePusher]

99. All weapons involve violence.

Or did you think that violence will magically disappear if we make the guns go away? If so, it demonstrates a massive failure in your knowledge of history.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

105. A gun is nothing but a tool

A "weapon of violence"? Nice phrase for a bumper sticker, but really means nothing.

All weapons of any kind are tools for a violent use.

However, violence in and of itself is morally neutral. It is violent to defend yourself, but few people consider it to be a bad thing.

I never suggested weapons have magical powers. I'm adamantly stating that weapons are merely tools. How they are used may be for good or ill, but the weapon itself is not the problem.

[slackmaster]

18. Spoons don't make fat people fat. Fat people toast toast.

:hide:

[oneshooter]

101. I thought that they tasted toast? Was I wrong? n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

19. LOL

[metalbot]

25. I think my guns must be defective

They don't seem to have killed anyone yet. Should I ask for a refund?

[Cid_B]

34. You just need more and bigger ones...

Then they can organize the lazy ones...

[defendandprotect]

44. Maybe you should call the GOPs/NRA for a new slogan -- ?

[ileus]

55. according to the guy from Italy they're going to start any day. Keep an eye on 'em

[jmg257]

35. A gun may be used to kill people. A toaster may be used to toast bread. Most often,

it is PEOPLE who use these object to accomplish these actions.

And often enough, both actions are for a justifiably good reason.

[defendandprotect]

45. Anyone can turn anything into a weapon -- but the GUN is a tool designed to kill and maim --

trying to deny that is foolish --

Let's stick with discussing actual weapons -- we know what they are intended to do --

And we know the levels of FEAR being pushed to sell these weapons -- you have only to

read the replies on the threads --

We also know who profits from the selling of guns -- weapons manufacturers --

and who profits from the violence -- the Rightwing --

GOPs/NRA has profited mightily from radicalizing the NRA in the last decades --

they used the NRA to target not only liberals and moderates in the Dem Party, but also

in their own party -- thereby moving the Congress to the right.


You got guns -- we lost about everything else!

[gejohnston]

51. A problem much bigger than the NRA.

The NRA is small compared to the Kochs. You got guns -- we lost about everything else!

Fear? Fear, regional bigotry, is being used to push for inane and unreasonable regulation to the determent to ourselves (the left wing.
When progressive sites like Media Matters lie about this one issue, an issue where facts are easy to check and is not very complicated they lose credibility with the true independents who don't really trust the left or the right. That is most of the country. What lies am I talking about?
You can buy machine guns at gun shows and Wal Mart like Al Qaida claimed
being against Bush's terror list before they were for it
the latest on Fast and Furious
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109200016
Problem is, Chris Brown is full of it, not Wayne this time.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x463400#463564
My post listing news links (including Wikileaks cables McClatchy put online)backs up everything Wayne says.

Of course, showing outrage that a student at Temple U. resisted being robbed (only defending himself after being shot by the criminal) does not help our side either. None of these civilized souls had anything negative about the sociopath who shot him for no reason.
So yeah, hate radio, the Kochs, and even the NRA to a lesser degree is a problem. Much of the NRA's or GOA's crap would not work if some on the left were not fueling the flames.

[defendandprotect]

54. GOPs/NRA was and is, on the contrary, quite powerful -- as a propaganda machine for FEAR ....

as a way to create a violent America -- and as a political tool to TARGET

not only liberals and moderates in the Dem Party, but in the GOP as well --

moving the Congress to the far right --

Why would you try to deny that -- ?


And -- right -- it isn't the RW Gang of 5 on the Supreme Court which put W in

the White House and gave you guns? Nah! :rofl:

Again -- why would you try to deny that -- ?

[gejohnston]

59. Umm let's see

Why would the NRA create a violent America? What is in it for them?
Why would I try to deny that? Because your argument is absurd. Hate radio and the Koch echo chamber pushed everything to the right. They moved the NRA to the right as well.

W was installed by the gang of five, but you misunderstand Heller.
The individual right to own guns is 9-0, including the dissent. The SCOTUS always held, dating back as far as Miller v Texas in 1894 that it is an individual right and regulation is allowed. The only thing the gang of five said in Heller is that DC's law was unreasonable.

If you ever expect to get what you define as "sane" and "reasonable" gun laws, you have to have sane and reasonable arguments.

[defendandprotect]

66. The RW can only rise on violence --

and they've been trying -- now ever more successfully -- to create a violent America --

Patriarchy and violence are mirror images of one another --

Over the last 40 years all media has been pushing concepts of violence -- especially now

vs women --

and the Drug War was used in large part to try to create person to pereson fear in America --

fear of neighbors --

We've had more than 50 plus years of out in the open RW political violence -- and it hasn't

ended yet - !!

Hate radio was the icing on the RW cake --

however, it the was TARGETING of liberals and moderates in the Democratic Party -- and in the

Republican Party which moved Congress to the right --

and which moved RW legislation --


And which RW an even greater opportunity to engineer voter suppression ---

Koch Bros. FUNDED DLC also infiltrated the Democratic Party over 20 years ago --

influencing its agenda and the selection of its candidates --

including its presidential candidates --


Now Koch Bros. funded T-baggers are working to move the GOP even further to the right --

as the THIRD WAY in the Democratic Party is also doing --



The NRA wasn't moved to the right -- it was taken over completely and radicalized to serve

the interests of the RW -- and to TARGET liberal and moderate Dems and Repugs --


Are you saying it's "insane" for Washington DC to ban guns given the gun violence they have?

Rather it is Heller which is insane -- and, again, you have these pro-gun decisions by the

same outrageous decision making which has made the RW Supreme Court an embarrassment throughout

the world --


By the time we become Mexico, it won't any longer simply be about regulating guns -- WHICH

THE GOVERNMENT ALWAYS HAS THE RIGHT TO DO -- it will be about banning handguns.

None of these decisions mean anything except that ... "regulation is allowed" and that's

the end of the story.


We had sane and reasonable gun laws before the rise of the RW --

and it is only that rise which has given you the guns you want --

[gejohnston]

83. don't know much about history do you?

The right wing don't need violence, just brain washing.

Are you saying it's "insane" for Washington DC to ban guns given the gun violence they have?

Rather it is Heller which is insane -- and, again, you have these pro-gun decisions by the

same outrageous decision making which has made the RW Supreme Court an embarrassment throughout

the world --

Yes because it only affected people who were and are not committing those violent acts.
The laws that have been repealed were right wing laws, just like South Carolina's handgun ban during the first half of the last century. The ban did not apply to the Klan nor the white power structure because they were deputized. Same with Florida banning open carry in 1893. In 1941 the Florida Supreme Court overturned an open carry conviction because the defendant was white. That is actually in the majority opinion.
California ban on open carry in 1967 was written sponsored by right wing speaker Mulford and signed by right wing governor Reagan.
If you are anti corporate, please explain to my why is it OK for Heller to carry a gun to protect a corporation's money (he is a armed private security guard) but not OK for him to protect himself and family?

[Euromutt]

86. You lost me at "patriarchy"

As Monty Python put it, "an argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition." The above is not, and it's not helped by the complete lack of anything resembling proper punctuation. It's incomprehensible garbage. If you want to convince anyone of anything, throwing out an incoherent series of unsupported (at best) assertions is not the way to go about it.

[PavePusher]

100. Put the bottle(s) away and get some sleep. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

63. Two of the five from 2000 have been replaced. Do try to keep up, N/T

[defendandprotect]

68. Liberals have been replaced -- with corporate liberals ... that's all ... RW is holding --

[GreenStormCloud]

62. That is easy to solve.

Have the Democratic Party give up completely on gun control and then it can't be used against us.

[defendandprotect]

69. Evidently you haven't noticed that as you got more guns, we lost more rights and more of New Deal ..

and regulation of capitalism ... ?

Hmmmm... what could the correlation be -- ? Let's see ...

Anything to do with the rise of the RW via political violence and stolen elections?

hmmm...

[GreenStormCloud]

75. Evidently you haven't noticed the gun control is a big loser for Democrats.

Forget gun control and concentrate on economics.

[RSillsbee]

74. Oh. My. God

How do you live w/ that much fear?

[jmg257]

76. Wasn't me who 1st compared a gun to a toaster...talk to the OP on that.

Many guns are designed to kill...not much to deny there, which is of course why they can be so effective when used for that purpose...offensively and defensively.

And we can't deny they are also fun for shooting, collecting etc. Damn necessity for some forms of employment.

Nothing wrong with a bit of fear...keeps people from doing all sorts of stupid and hazardous things. Rational decisions are made with regards to fears ALL the time, including choices involving being armed.

Without gun manufacturers there wouldn't be any guns. I too profit by buying them...career-wise, enjoyment -wise, and on occasion financially.

Does seem the NRA members and supporters are getting there money's worth. While any 'militant' aspects do suck, it is the in-roads of gun control in the previous decades that made the 'views' of the NRA so popular. In attempts to do whatever they needed to get restrictive laws passed, controllers shat on too many people who saw things differently.

Take away people's choices, and they tend to get pissed, especially when their perceived fears and experiences tell them how important having those choices may be.

[Francis Marion]

88. where to begin...?

Scalpels are knives specifically designed to cut human tissue.

They must be bad, then.

Does irrational fear of disease compel otherwise sane persons into the clutches of a surgeon?

And who profits from the sale of surgical instruments? Those lousy medical device manufacturers, that's who. It would be better if somehow useful tools would just sort of appear in parthenogenic wholeness in a hospital inventory sans profit.

Surgeons actually fund their golf games... golf games! with the profits they make from cutting people up.

And how dare the NRA stand up to any legislative marauder, Democrat or otherwise, who tirelessly assault and infringe upon OUR gun rights. Damn them for standing up for the Bill of Rights!

Guns don't plant pods in your basement to zombify your will: they are tools, nothing more, and value judgements of their use depend upon the manner of use, rather than your highly assumptive dogma of their design intent.

Guns are weapons; so are knives, spears, bow and arrow, rocks, bats, poles. gasoline, oily rags and glass bottles.

The debate is with respect to Liberty and choice. Although we're all entitled to our opinions, we are obliged to respect the human rights of the American People as coded into our Constitution. And with respect to the set of tools called firearms, "shall not be infringed" means "hands off."

The People will decide how to keep and bear such tools, just as we decide when and where to go about in public, what to read, what to write, to have our privacy respected...

[Francis Marion]

98. Reverse engineer your thinking.

and your argument unties itself.

A can be used for an activity in which nobody gets hurt.
A can also be used to hurt people.

B can be used to hurt people.
B can also be used for an activity in which nobody gets hurt.

The outcome depends upon the person's willful manner of use; the inanimate object doesn't get a vote.

[ileus]

50. self defense guns are just another safety device.

They assure the safety of our homes and families...

[defendandprotect]

70. War is peace -- Guns are Safety -- 36,000 dead of gun shot wounds every year --

:nuke:

[friendly_iconoclast]

77. Meat is murder--Kubrick staged the Moon landings--Capitalism slows the rotation of the Earth.

Got any new material? We've heard all the old stuff already...

[gravity556]

79. There were less than 9000 murders involving firearms last year.

So apparently, you think there were more than 25 thousand suicides, none of which would have occured without a gun. Fucking preposterous. How many dead due to automobiles last year? Why no outcry over that? Is it because you're a car fetishist? Can't go around without your own personal motor vehicle? Compensating for something? Scared of the bus? Admit it, you're just a pawn of the automotive industry!

See how ridiculous those statements are?

[Francis Marion]

87. I'd like to see

that in a sentence diagram.

[PavePusher]

102. Not me.

I have a low pain threshold...

[SteveM]

89. Customer to Waiter: "Would you please toast that, madam?" nt