GUNS IN THE NEWS - March 23, 2004

[CO Liberal]

Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:

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[MrBenchley]

1. Pa. boy confesses to accidentally firing gun that killed postal worker

"PITTSBURGH (AP) - A 10-year-old boy told police he may have accidentally shot to death a postal carrier last summer when he fired a gun through his window at a tree.
The boy told investigators he fired a shot from his home at about the same time that Clayton Smith, 45, was killed, U.S. Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan said. "Based upon what the boy said, it is plausible that it could have occurred that way," she said.
The boy, whose name was not released, was 9 at the time of the shooting.
Postal Inspector Andrew Richards said Monday that authorities recovered the .38 caliber-pistol that was used in the July 2003 shooting of Smith, a case that puzzled investigators."

http://www.bakersfield.com/24hour/nation/story/1231893p-8263645c.html

[iverglas]

2. I confess more stupidity

When I read the story yesterday, the bit about how the boy "fired a gun through his window" ... I thought he'd shot the gun through the window, i.e. through the glass. Which would have made it pretty obvious where the shot had come from ...

And I vaguely figured that the gun had been "recovered" from a sewer or someplace, where the kid had run and dumped it, and that was why there'd been a problem with the proof.

I guess RoeBear is right; stories in the news aren't always what they appear to be. Particularly when seen, uh, through my glasses. ;)

Now I see that this story is an example of the value of concealed carry permits. If only that letter carrier had been properly armed, eh?

.

[MrBenchley]

3. Hey, if only the kid had an assault weapon

think of the people he could have killed!

By the way, guess what right wing lobbying group that has odious nutcase Grover Norquist on its board publishes a gun magazine for kids? Here's a hint...the RKBA crowd started a thread to pimp for its "interesting website" and its initials are N R A.

[Romulus]

4. logic game

so when some kids beat up another kid with a baseball bat, it's the little league's fault? :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

5. Is that what you think "logic" is, rom?

No wonder the RKBA crowd thinks Mary Rosh is a scientist and "Mens News Daily" is a good source of information.

[RoeBear]

13. You think it's wrong!?!

Wrong to have a magazine for youths that discusses guns. Is this part of your progressive free speech platform?

[MrBenchley]

15. Yeah, roe, I think it's wrong...

[RoeBear]

24. Then tell your politician friends..

...to propose a law to prohibit that area of free speech.
Get back to me with what they have to say.

[iverglas]

27. how can you be so confused???

Then tell your politician friends..
...to propose a law to prohibit that area of free speech.
Get back to me with what they have to say.

If I say it's "wrong" to commit adultery, must I then write to my MP and demand that adultery be made a criminal offence?

If I say it's "wrong" to lie to your spouse about where you went after work last night, must I write to my MP and demand that people be prohibited by law from lying to their spouses about where they go after work??

If you aren't this confused (and I just find it really hard to believe that anyone could be), why would you want to portray someone as believing or having said something that you have no basis for portraying him as believing or having said??

Why would you tell Benchley to demand a law to prohibit the publication of this sort of magazine when he has never said, implied, or suggested that he believed, that the publication of the magazine should be prohibited?

Where's your point this time?

.

[MrBenchley]

29. Hell, I'm happy to have the scumbags publish this...

It shows what a truly ugly evil bunch they are...

[RoeBear]

41. I'm seeing how committed he is..

...to the idea. Do you think the NRA has done something wrong by publishing this youth magazine?

[CO Liberal]

42. There Are Times...

...that I think the NRA does something wrong by simply existing.

:-)

[RoeBear]

43. I'll put you down...

...as a 'yes' vote. :)

[MrBenchley]

44. That's why there's all this wailing....

The closer you look at the NRA the scummier it gets....and it's difficult to get much scummier than a gun magazine for kids...

[RoeBear]

46. That's pathetic..

..to call them scum for this. It's perfectly acceptable to have a magazine that appeals to all the youth target shooters in this country.

Look at this crazy shit they are teaching:
http://www.aaof.com/gsr.htm

[RoeBear]

47. More crazy shit...

InSights is NRA's official publication for junior members. Designed to motivate its readers to participate in all aspects of the hunting and shooting sports, InSights features personality profiles on top junior shooters, hunting stories, "how-to" pieces, program announcements, product surveys, safety features and educational information about firearms. New shooting and hunting products—always of particular interest to our readers—are announced and described frequently in the magazine.

http://www.gilesonline.net/nra/IS/

[MrBenchley]

49. Yup...who but a right wing lunatic

would publish a gun magazine for kids?

[RoeBear]

57. So anyone who...

...buys this magazine must be a 'right wing lunatic'?

[MrBenchley]

59. Gee, roe....

Next ask me what I think of anybody who sticks up for this odious irresponsible publication and the scummy right wing asswipes who publish it....

[RoeBear]

61. So you only object to it ...

...because of the publisher?

[MrBenchley]

63. Is THAT what you got out of my post, roe?

If so, you better go back and read it again.

[RoeBear]

65. Just totally baffling...

...that you would draw the first amendment line here.

I would be ashamed to have a view of the first amendment like that.

[MrBenchley]

66. Really, roe...

I would be ashamed to be sticking up for racist corrupt extremists like the NRA or for the concept of a gun magazine for kids....

[RoeBear]

69. I'm sticking up for the 1st amendment

you got a problem with that?

[MrBenchley]

76. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrrrre......

We can all tell......

[iverglas]

70. I'd be ashamed, myself

Just totally baffling...
...that you would draw the first amendment line here.

I'd be abjectly if I ever, ever in my life knowingly made a completely false statement impugning another person's character, for the purpose of publicly vilifying and discrediting him/her.

If I did it out of stupidity, I'd be ashamed enough, but I'd hope I would have the decency to retract it and apologize.

But if I were repeatedly challenged to offer any evidence in support of the statement I had made, and provided with all the information I needed to understand that it was false, and made it again anyhow, I'd probably just ask somebody to shoot me.

.

[MrBenchley]

77. Got it in one....

But then without denial, distortion and outright deception, the RKBA crowd would have to be mute....

[iverglas]

71. what Benchley said:

who but a right wing lunatic
would publish a gun magazine for kids?

What RoeBear said:

So anyone who...
...buys this magazine must be a 'right wing lunatic'?

Can someone provide me with the intervening posts, which I obviously mislaid somewhere? Where did Benchley say, or imply or suggest or hint, that someone who bought the magazine must be a right-wing lunatic?


I think I'll write a script.

été-eau: Who but a sadist would sell coffee to the public that is so hot it would burn the inside of a person's mouth out?

DoeDeer: So anyone who buys hot coffee is a sadist?


Maybe I can pretend I'm Eugène Ionesco and get it produced.

Theatre of the absurd, doncha know.

.

[slackmaster]

78. Another thing Benchley said

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=44507&mesg_id=44563&page=

MrBenchley claimed smokeless powders used in Europe contain taggants like those used in commercial explosives in Europe and the USA.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

85. nah

You and I both know what it's called. And it ain't a "question".

.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

48. Yeah, we can tell from your wailing....

It's a scummy thing to do, roe. Now go cry about it to Eddie Eagle...

[iverglas]

62. oh look, it's another question

Do you think the NRA has done something wrong by publishing this youth magazine?

How could YOU didn't answer any of MINE?

I'm seeing how committed he is.. ...to the idea.

What the bleeding hell is that supposed to mean?

Someone says something is "wrong", so you insinuate that s/he advocates prohibiting people from doing it -- as a way of seeing "how committed <s/he> is to the idea"??

I'll tell ya again. I'm *very* committed to the idea that people should not lie to their spouses about where they went after work: that it's "wrong". Now what are you gonna infer from that ... or insinuate that I want to do about it?


Btw, I'd think that the NRA was doing something wrong if it published instructions for children on how to make paper airplanes. I'm not big on Hitler Youth recruiting by any method.

.

[MrBenchley]

64. You will notice roe got very quiet

when we produced the proof of gun dealers arming terrorists he so indignantly demanded...

[slackmaster]

79. Godwin's Law foul

Btw, I'd think that the NRA was doing something wrong if it published instructions for children on how to make paper airplanes. I'm not big on Hitler Youth recruiting by any method.

The victims of the Nazis are all rolling in their graves at your trite devaluation of the horrors they suffered.

[iverglas]

86. and your lips must be sore

... from pursing them into that prim little gueule.

A fascist is a fascist.

And I ain't the one exploiting anybody's victims in this little scenario.

I forget; what is it about the NRA that is fine and noble?

.

[CO Liberal]

17. Discussing Guns in a Youth Magazine Is One Thing

Glorifying guns in a youth magazine is something else entirely.

[RoeBear]

19. "Glorifying guns in a youth magazine ...

... is something else entirely."

And with what proof do you base that on? Are there stories like:

"Is that bully bothering you? Learn how to handle him with a double tap"

"Want to be remembered forever? Bring a gun to school"

" Dylan and Eric's favorite reloads"

You want to see glorification of guns? Go to a movie or watch TV. Ironically these are often produced by the same people that support gun control.

[MrBenchley]

20. Especially when it's the right wing scum of the earth

glorifying guns...

[RoeBear]

22. You think the..

..left wing scum of the world will do it? LOL

An of course it's utterly preposterous when you claim that they are glorifing guns. But if you would like to provide proof I'll be right here waiting....

[iverglas]

28. now that's funny

You think the..
..left wing scum of the world will do it? LOL

Who might this "left wing scum" be? I wonder. Sounds like an oxymoron, to me. And puhlease don't be telling me that Stalin was, or Kim Jong Il is, "left wing", 'k?

And isn't it kinda the whole point that the left wing is not going to be glorifying guns to kids? Duh.

.

[MrBenchley]

30. Interesting, isn't it?

We get posts from the RKBA crowd slamming just about every liberal anyone's ever heard of....we get posts from the RKBA crowd pimping for some of the scummiest right wingers around...we get posts from the RKBA crowd linking to far right wing cesspools like Newsmax and MensNewsDaily....

And the only posts we ever seem to get from the RKBA crowd even mildly criticizing Republicans are the ones that pout that the GOP isn't corrupt and crazy enough to suit...

[iverglas]

25. I'm not the one confused this time

You think it's wrong!?!
Wrong to have a magazine for youths that discusses guns.
Is this part of your progressive free speech platform?

Me, I just have absolutely no difficulty distinguishing between

(a) the expression of an opinion about the value or wisdom or morality of engaging in particular speech; and

(b) a call for any speech to be suppressed.

Were you having this problem, RoeBear? Have I helped to clear things up at all?

I think it's wrong for George W. Bush to say just about anything he has ever said or will ever say. I haven't yet called for him to be prohibited from saying it or punished for saying it. Seeing the distinction?

.

[RoeBear]

12. Right again

"Now I see that this story is an example of the value of concealed carry permits. If only that letter carrier had been properly armed, eh?"

Because I for one always claimed that CCPs would stop all gun violence.

Just to save you time Iverglas: "Where did I say that, for I should surely like to see it"

[iverglas]

23. I guess the question would actually be

... who was talking to you?

.

[MrBenchley]

26. Amazing what some people will volunteer for

isn't it?

[MrBenchley]

6. Kids in Fresno Slayings Said Shot in Face

"FRESNO, Calif. - The seven children killed in a mass shooting here were each shot in the face and died almost immediately, according to a corner's report.
Nine people were shot during what began as a custody dispute March 12. Among the victims were seven children of Marcus Wesson, who has been charged with nine counts of murder and could face the death penalty.
The certificates of seven of the nine deaths were released Monday. The remaining two death certificates have yet to be filed.
The deaths were all ruled homicides. All seven victims died from gunshot wounds to the face, and each died within minutes after being shot, the certificates said. "

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040323/ap_on_re_us/fresno_slayings_1

[MrBenchley]

7. Man charged in nightclub shooting (GA)

"A Dublin man was charged Monday with aggravated assault in a shooting and fight at a nightclub that sent three people to the hospital, Macon police said.
Brandon Lee Horton, 22, got into a fight early Sunday at Whiskey River in south Macon, where he allegedly told witnesses that "he had enough bullets for all of them," according to a police report. Horton alledgedly shot 22-year-old Lindsey Adams of Kathleen and then dropped the gun, a 9mm Ruger, the report stated."

http://www.macon.com/mld/telegraph/news/local/8253018.htm

[MrBenchley]

8. Gun possibly used by murder suspect is discovered Monday (AZ)

"KINGMAN -- A weapon that may have been used by a Kingman murder suspect was discovered Monday.
Steven Arthur Cook, 44, is charged with felony first-degree murder, attempted first-degree murder, aggravated assault and first-degree burglary.
Cook allegedly shot his wife, Bonnie Cook, and shot and wounded her fianc/ Dec. 26 in the 2000 block of Davis Avenue."

http://www.mohavedailynews.com/articles/2004/03/22/news/news3.txt

[MrBenchley]

9. Bentleyville launches drug crackdown (PA)

Another "innocent collector" no doubt....

"James C. Emery III, 27, of 196 Sprowls Road, Bentleyville, was arrested Saturday on charges of possession and possession with intent to deliver cocaine, convicted person not to possess firearm, possession of prohibited offensive weapons and possession of marijuana after state police, along with Bentleyville police, served a search warrant at his home.
When police questioned him, Emery denied selling the drugs, according to a complaint filed with District Justice Jay Weller. Police said Emery appeared to be very nervous and told them he had only a small amount of marijuana.
When Emery reached into a cupboard to retrieve the marijuana from a Fiddle Faddle snack container, police saw a .357-caliber revolver in the cupboard. He was immediately taken into custody. Emery is not permitted to have a weapon because of prior drug convictions.
Police obtained a warrant to search Emery's home. Inside the house they found a .40-caliber Glock semi-automatic revolver, two brass knuckles, digital scale, four bags of suspected cocaine, pills, a 12-gauge shotgun and an empty suitcase that had a strong odor of marijuana. Police also found $4,200 in a metal briefcase, $260 in Emery's wallet and $32,500 in a cassette case. "

http://www.observer-reporter.com/283661802351741.bsp

[MrBenchley]

10. Second of 3 city men involved in robbery gets 10 to 20 years (PA)

"Anthony Lopez was 17 when he and two other men entered an apartment at 735 Chestnut St. where they thought they could find drugs and money, according to police.
Lopez, now 18, held a loaded gun to the head of a woman in the apartment, bound her ankles and wrists with duct tape and ransacked the home, a prosecutor said.
Lopez, of 1104 S. Filbert St., Allentown, pleaded guilty to robbery and conspiracy in the Feb. 19, 2003, incident. Police said Lopez planned the robbery with Jeremy Cruz, 23, no known address, who faces trial in June if he decides to withdraw his guilty pleas to the same charges.
Another co-defendant, Jose Morales Jr., 35, of Allentown, pleaded guilty to robbery and conspiracy and was sentenced last week to seven to 14 years in prison."

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b3_5robbery-rmar23,0,1836286.story?coll=all-newslocal-hed

[MrBenchley]

11. Police investigate late-night shooting death (NC)

"Charlotte-Mecklenburg police late Monday were investigating a homicide in an east Charlotte neighborhood. Police were called to Colebrook Road off Milton Road about 10:30 p.m. by someone who reported hearing gunfire and seeing a car speed away."

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/8253271.htm

[MrBenchley]

14. Man Found Dead In Local Street (OH)

"A man was found dead on a local street late Monday night.
Police in Springfield Township were called at 11:15 p.m. about shots heard by neighbors, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 reported. When officers arrived, they found a man lying in the 10000 block of Birchridge Drive. He died at the scene from multiple gunshot wounds. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=410&ncid=410&e=1&u=/ibsys/20040323/lo_wlwt/2063087

[MrBenchley]

16. Gas Station Employee Found Beaten, Shot To Death (OH)

"Police are looking for a killer in the Tri-State.
James Chisenhall, 45, was working as the night manager at the Shell gas station on Church Street in Newtown when he was beaten and shot to death early Sunday morning, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 reported."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=410&ncid=410&e=6&u=/ibsys/20040322/lo_wlwt/2061352

[Stockholm]

18. Anna Lindh killer gets life

As a newbie I can´t post threads yet (can´t wait to contribute) but thought this piece of news could be interesting. It is doing the rounds in European media at the moment.

The man who killed Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh has been sentenced to life in prison.

Mijailo Mijailovic confessed to the stabbing but his defence team had argued he was mentally unstable.

Lindh died on September 11, a day after 25-year-old Mijailovic attacked her while she was shopping, repeadedly stabbing her in her stomach, chest and arms.

Handing down the life sentence, a Stockholm court said Mijailovic was aware of what he was doing, noting the severity and violence of his attack.

"He used a life-threatening weapon. He held the knife with both hands when he delivered the stabs... the force was powerful," the court said in a statement.

"The location and the size of the stab wounds indicates that the intention was to kill.

"It is beyond reasonable doubt that Mijailo Mijailovic intended to kill Anna Lindh.

"The crime shall, on the basis of the aforementioned, be considered murder," it said.

"He (Mijailovic) is therefore ... sentenced to life in prison".

Mijailovic had claimed voices in his head told him to seek out and stab Mrs Lindh.

However, his six-week court case heard he was a violent man torn between his parents' Serbian roots and a new home in Sweden.

The prosecution said: "He should be sentenced to life imprisonment for murder," adding "his intentions were clear".

Mijailovic's lawyer argued the attack was not pre-planned and although his aim was to harm, it was not to kill.

He claimed the attack was the result of sleep-deprivation and a potent cocktail of wrongly-prescribed medication for mental problems.

Mrs Lindh's killing sent shockwaves through Sweden where many people saw her as a future prime minister.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13024227,00.htm

<img src="">

[MrBenchley]

21. Police: Man Holds Wife, Kids Hostage Before Surrendering (OH)

Another family made safer by guns...

"Police said they responded to a call of two shots fired at a home on Crest Road.
When officers got to the home they found an armed man holed up inside with his wife, two kids and mother-in-law, NewsChannel5 reported.
Witnesses said when the family refused to let the man inside the home he jumped through a window and fired two shots into the air. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=387&ncid=387&e=3&u=/ibsys/20040323/lo_wews/2063003

[Sandpiper]

34. Authorities want to know what led to El Cajon murder-suicide (CA)

Yet another family made safe by guns

6:27 p.m. March 22, 2004

EL CAJON – Authorities tried today to determine what drove a man to gun down his estranged wife and wound a 9-year-old bystander at an East County restaurant over the weekend before taking his own life on a nearby freeway.

Jose Gurollo, 31, walked into The Broadway pizzeria in the 1200 block of Fletcher Parkway in El Cajon about 4 p.m. yesterday and confronted 25-year-old Rosalie Gurollo, according to police.

The couple, recently separated, quarreled for a few moments before Jose pulled a gun and shot the woman once in the upper body, killing her.

The assailant also wounded a schoolgirl in the leg before fleeing in a black pickup truck, investigators said. Medics took the child to a hospital , where she was listed in stable condition. The girl had no relationship to the Gurollos.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20040322-1827-shootingfolo.html

[slackmaster]

35. Read the article - it contains possible clues

The murdered estranged wife had received a substantial sum of money from the native American tribe of which she is a member, and was getting $12,000 per month, all for royalties from a tribal casino. Because that is not earned income he would not have been entitled to any of it in divorce, under California's community property law.

The shooter was unemployed. Surely not a justification for murdering her, but it might partly explain his level of anger and frustration.

I also found it interesting that there seems to be no record of violence in the family, and no indication the man had a criminal record, or that he was a drug user, or that he had been adjudicated incompetent. I leave it to the pro-control camp to offer a politically feasible, practical solution to reduce the likelihood of this kind of tragedy happening in the future.

[Romulus]

36. another assumption

is that he would not have been able to kill her without the firearm.

Anyone that mad could do it with his bare hands. It's been done many times before, though much less often than with a kitchen knife.

Edited to add:
"There is no reason why any person should live in fear of a violent family member," Slater-Price said this afternoon. "I urge everyone who needs help to get it before tragedy strikes."

People never become disturbed or enraged enough to kill a relative without showing "warning signs," Gwinn said.

"Most domestic violence homicides are preventable if adequate resources are available to the victims and their families," he added. "

[iverglas]

38. so glad you asked

I leave it to the pro-control camp to offer a politically feasible, practical solution to reduce the likelihood of this kind of tragedy happening in the future.

Ban or severely restrict the private possession of handguns.

Unless I miss my bet, that wasn't a shotgun he killed her with. Unless he "pulled" it out of his pantleg.

Implement a universal, centralized firearms registry.

That way, if a woman in her position does contact authorities, they have the information they need in order to confiscate the firearms that he is in legal possession of. Obviously, that is not going to address firearms that individuals are in illegal possession of ... but it appears that he was in legal possession in this case.


And if it a kitchen knife were an equally efficient, and effective, and low-risk way of killing one's estranged wife in a public place, WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE DO IT?


The shooter was unemployed. Surely not a justification for murdering her, but it might partly explain his level of anger and frustration.

And who the fucking hell cares?

And why is it a good idea that people with that "level of anger and frustration", who are probably legion, should have access to firearms?

.

[slackmaster]

55. Do you have ANY solid evidence to support your theory?

I'll let you slide on the "politically feasible" qualification for the sake of discussion.

I've always believed that anyone wacked out enough to gun down the mother of his children in public then take himself out of the gene pool minutes later would not be deterred in the slightest by lack of a gun. He'd made up his mind to kill her. That's why he brought a gun with him to the restaurant. Even if guns could be all controlled or had never been invented I'm sure the guy had enough intelligence and determination to find another weapon or another venue for his crime.

And if it a kitchen knife were an equally efficient, and effective, and low-risk way of killing one's estranged wife in a public place, WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE DO IT?

Because despite your straw man guns do provide a very easy way to kill.

And who the fucking hell cares?

I see no reason for your rude outburst.

And why is it a good idea that people with that "level of anger and frustration", who are probably legion, should have access to firearms?

Feel free to suggest a politically feasible way to identify and disarm people who have no criminal record, no restraining order, and no disqualifying mental health adjudication in advance of them committing a crime. Your suggestions to "Ban or severely restrict the private possession of handguns" and "Implement a universal, centralized firearms registry" are not even worth bringing to the table in a discussion of US firearms policy.

[iverglas]

58. WHAT "theory"?

I've always believed that anyone wacked out enough to gun down the mother of his children in public then take himself out of the gene pool minutes later would not be deterred in the slightest by lack of a gun. He'd made up his mind to kill her. That's why he brought a gun with him to the restaurant. I'm sure the guy had enough intelligence and determination to find another weapon or another venue for his crime.

You can and may believe whatever you choose to believe. The moon's made of cheese. Whatever. I don't care. What you're propounding here is a THEORY, as compared to what we know of the actual FACTS of what happened.

The individual in question attacked his estranged wife in a public place. Very often, this is an indication that he does not have access to her in a more private place.

To kill someone without overpowering him/her somehow, about the ONLY "tool" that is efficacious is a firearm. Very few people are able to throw knives with the force and accuracy required to kill someone.

It is just plain harder to kill someone with a knife.

And it just plain A LOT HARDER to kill yourself with a knife, fer dog's sake.

And it is really pretty hard to manage to do both in a crowded public place -- AND kill/injure a bystander -- with a knife.

If you were setting out to kill someone else in particular, and cause general mayhem, and then kill yourself, would YOU choose a knife for the job when you have access to a firearm? Are would-be killers really THAT much stupider than you?

If you were setting out to kill someone else and then yourself, in public, would you really think you'd be likely to accomplish your mission using a knife? There's a whole lot more slip twixt knife blade and victim than there is between trigger and victim. Really and truly.

People who want to do things do not always find ways of doing them that meet their criteria. The desire to kill someone really and truly isn't going to be enough to overcome the strong likelihood of failing *and* getting caught, in a lot of people's minds. A desire to kill someone really and truly does not cause everyone who experiences it to completely lose his/her marbles and go off to do it in circumstances where s/he is very likely to fail and very likely to get caught, and/or injured or killed, in the process.

Guns just meet most people's criteria. Extremely little effort/strategizing needed, likely to achieve the purpose, lowest risk of being caught and/or injured/killed. Efficient, effective, low-risk. Better than any other "tool" in virtually every case.

Of course guns are the best "tool" -- else why would you lot be whining about having restrictions placed on your ability to tote guns around?

That's the thing that gets me. YOU need a gun to off somebody (or scare somebody sufficiently to deter him/her from his/her nefarious purpose), but everybody else who wants to off somebody can just really easily do it with the nearest chunk of gravel. Why don't YOU just carry a knife and a couple of rocks and a baseball bat around??

Because despite your whiny-assed little straw man argument guns do provide a very easy way to kill.

You got it, bubba. They are an efficient and effective and low-risk way of killing people. Why anybody wants as many things like that as possible in the hands of as many people as possible so that if they happen to feel like killing someone, they have the most efficient, effective and low-risk means immediately available to them, is just beyond me.

The other very well known fact, despite any muttering to the contrary that might come from any quarters, is that homicide IS very commonly an impulsive act, not a carefully thought-out course of action. The availability of the "tool" IS an extremely important factor in impulsive acts. Absent the "tool", the act simply WOULD NOT occur.

I see no reason for your frequent rude fucking outbursts. If you don't fucking care about what I have to say then don't fucking read it. Somebody other than you MIGHT fucking care. Obviously I fucking care, otherwise why the fuck would I have fucking written it? Are you just fucking trying to fucking insult me, or what?

Goodness gracious. Whatever became of the notion that typing out a message and posting it on a discussion board is a general invitation to comment? I commented. Get over it.

Yes, I suppose you obviously care about the frustratation of the poor fellow whose solution to not being able to get hold of his estranged wife's money was to shoot her, an unrelated child and himself. As you may have noticed, I really don't. Except to the extent that I would really prefer that controlling, hateful people like him not be walking around with firearms in my vicinity.

I really just didn't see how his unfortunate circumstances and unfortunate state of mind had much to do with the issues at hand, y'see. Except, as I say, as an illustration of precisely why it's not a good idea for firearms to be free-floating around society.

Feel free to suggest a politically feasible way to identify and disarm people who have no criminal record, no restraining order, and no disqualifying mental health adjudication in advance of them committing a crime.

Let's assume that there was a restraining order in place. Exactly how would that have helped prevent the killing, absent a real way of identifying and confiscating the would-be killer's firearms??

Like licensing of owners and registration of firearms, for starters.

Your suggestions to "Ban or severely restrict the private possession of handguns" and "Implement a universal, centralized firearms registry" are useless rhetorical crap, not even worth bringing to the table.

Yeah, except that pretty much every civilized country in the world has done some variety of both of those things, eh?

So many things are not "politically feasible" ... universal health care, generous paid parental leave, effective firearms control ... and yet so many of us do 'em anyway. Well, we think we do. What a fairytale world we obviously live in, 'cause they obviously aren't politically feasible.

The useless rhetorical crap, my friend, is the incessant droning about how such-and-such isn't "politically feasible".

What would Robert Kennedy say, hm?

.

[MrBenchley]

60. I know what some people have said....

if you want to discuss "useless rhetorical crap"...

"slackmaster
9. He tried to shoot himself and missed?
Poor kid can't get anything right."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=10507#10679

Slackmaster (#32): "The presence of a few idiots in Nazi uniforms need not spoil a family outing."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=22105

"slackmaster
47. Who is this "RKBA crowd" you keep referring to?
However I will concede that now that I've read it I don't see anything at all wrong with the GOP's platform."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=20403&mesg_id=20484&page=


"slackmaster
38. It's the Big Lie strategy"
"slackmaster
58. Nice try but it's still based on a major LIE"
"slackmaster
65. If I may be so bold as to speak for the entire "RKBA crowd"
We aren't saying they are lying."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=20875&mesg_id=20875

[slackmaster]

67. OK, I'll play Let's Pretend for a moment

Let's assume that there was a restraining order in place. Exactly how would that have helped prevent the killing, absent a real way of identifying and confiscating the would-be killer's firearms??

A restraining order is a piece of paper with ink on it. All it provides is a quick and easy way to have the restrainee arrested if he or she violates it. Judges and lawyers and cops all acknowledge that it's a weak instrument, and too often becomes applicable only after something bad has happened.

I think you are making a huge leap of faith assuming that lack of a firearm would have prevented this particular crime. You haven't presented any evidence other than your own conjecture to support the - Wild-assed guess? - that he wouldn't have sought and promptly found some other way of killing her. People murdered each other in large numbers before firearms were invented. There is no logical reason to suggest that they'd stop if denied access to firearms. Just look at the homicide stats for Australia - With fewer guns in circulation people are murdered at the same rate they were before gun control laws were strengthened. Yes, fewer murders are done with guns, but MORE are now being done with knives and bare hands. Are you seriously suggesting the same thing would not happen in the USA?

[iverglas]

68. missing the point

A restraining order is a piece of paper with ink on it. All it provides is a quick and easy way to have the restrainee arrested if he or she violates it. Judges and lawyers and cops all acknowledge that it's a weak instrument, and too often becomes applicable only after something bad has happened.

Huh, that's not all a restraining order does in the fairytale land I live in.

It generally comes complete with a firearms prohibition order, authorizing police to seize firearms in the possession of the person against whom the order is made.

That being pretty much the point I already made.

I think you are making a huge leap of faith assuming that lack of a firearm would have prevented this particular crime.

I'm very sure that I didn't assume, or state that I assumed, any such thing.

I can name a number of factors that plainly make it reasonable to think that there is a good chance that the killings would not have happened absent a firearm. And I did.

You haven't presented any evidence other than your own conjecture to support the - Wild-assed guess? - that he wouldn't have sought and promptly found some other way of killing her.

The fact that I know what I'm talking about makes what I think about what might have happened absent a firearm something quite different from a wild-assed guess, unfortunately for you.

A really really quick google would help you learn some of the things I know. Here's an easy example:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001376.htm

The findings in this investigation should be interpreted with caution because the sample size was limited and restricted to homicides in six urban areas and because the sample size was further reduced as a function of the number of offenders who could be included in the study. In addition, this study investigated homicides between family members, relatives, or friends, and the results may not be generalizable to other types of homicide. However, the results from this investigation are useful in planning future investigations of possible risk factors for firearm-associated homicide among family members, relatives, or friends. In particular, several findings from this investigation suggest that the homicide was an impulsive act committed with a readily accessible firearm: in the majority of homicides, the offender and/or victim had consumed alcohol and/or drugs before the incident; approximately half the offenders fired the weapon within 15 seconds of brandishing it; approximately half the offenders did not intend to shoot the victims when they drew the weapon; and a substantial proportion of firearms used in these homicides were kept loaded and in an unlocked location.

These are non-drug-dealer cases, y'see.

And another:

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/ficap/resourceBook/executiveSummary.htm

Firearms are weapons with significant killing potential. As a result, the availability of a firearm is more likely to escalate the consequences of impulsive interpersonal anger, or thoughts of suicide, into death or serious injury. Of the major firearm types, handgun use accounts for the majority of human death and injury.

... Firearm injuries pose a particularly large threat to life and limb, thereby requiring continued advances in medical services. The increasing prevalence of handgun use, especially semi-automatic weapons, has changed wounding patterns, resulting in multiple wounds and higher death rates. ...

Efficient. Effective. Low risk.

The whole document, worth some reading: http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/ficap/FirearmInjuryResourceBook.pdf

http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/research/other_docs/factsheets/suicide/default.asp

In the context of research on homicide, given an attack, firearms are more likely to result in serious injury and death than if another weapon is used. Firearm attacks are about three times more likely to result in death than knife attacks and many times more likely to be lethal than attacks involving other methods.

You see?? It just is *not* as easy to kill someone without a gun. And *I* really don't talk out of *my* ass. My agenda is based on the facts; I don't have to twist facts to fit an agenda.

.

[slackmaster]

72. And you are missing the point as well

Huh, that's not all a restraining order does in the fairytale land I live in.

It generally comes complete with a firearms prohibition order, authorizing police to seize firearms in the possession of the person against whom the order is made.

A domestic RO (at least California's) has an explicit admonition against the restrainee "having a gun", which is generally interpreted as having one easily available. People who comply with that part of the order either stash their weapons at a friend's house or turn them over to police. It would be nice if we had the law enforcement resources to search the home of every restrainee, but thousands of temporary ROs are issued in California family courts every working day. There is NO CHARGE to get a TRO against an estranged family member, roommate, lover, etc., and the process takes about one hour. It's a common way for a jilted lover to get some petty revenge, and one of the most common responses is for a restrainee to get a TRO in retaliation.

Even if we had the gun controllers' wet dream of a flawless registry we wouldn't have the cops to go enforce every order. None of which makes a hill of beans worth of difference if the victim has not obtained an RO, as is apparently the case in the crime under discussion.

On edit: If the plaintiff on a TRO calls the cops and says "My estranged ex-SO against whom I have a TRO has a gun," the police WILL respond by going to the restrainee's home, place of work, etc. immediately.

You see?? It just is *not* as easy to kill someone without a gun.

You keep whacking that straw man, but it does not in any way resemble anything I've ever written on the subject.

The fact remains that a person is just as likely to be murdered today in Australia as he or she would have been 10 years ago. The decline in the availability and use of firearms in crime, which is borne out in statistics, has apparently been offset by an increase in the use of other weapons.

[iverglas]

73. "apparently"

The fact remains that a person is just as likely to be murdered today in Australia as he or she would have been 10 years ago. The decline in the availability and use of firearms in crime, which is borne out in statistics, has apparently been offset by an increase in the use of other weapons.

And if you call any of that "fact", you're engaged in one of those talking out a nether orifice acts.

YOU have absolutely nothing but wild speculation on which to base any assertion that homicides committed without firearms in Australia are the same homicides that would have been committed with firearms had firearms been available, and that there would have been no additional homicides that were not committed that would have been committed had firearms been available.

The FACT that homicide is very often an impulsive act THAT WOULD NOT HAVE OCCURRED absent a firearm, and the FACT that a firearm is multiples more lethal than any other weapon, are what make YOUR speculation wild and non-credible, and mine reasonable.

No increase (however statistically insignificant it actually is) in homicide rates when strict firearms control measures are implemented can be explained by speculating about some substitution effect going on among homicide committers -- particularly when it is KNOWN that a particular, common kind of homicide, specifically, is an impulsive act of opportunity and that THIS KIND of homicide simply is not amenable to a substitution effect, because

(a) the lethality (effectiveness) of the other means available is multiples lower, and so an increase in homicide rates would not be seen unless multiples more people were attempting homicide;

(b) the other means available are hugely less convenient and easy (efficient), and much more easily interfered with by any third parties present; and

(c) the other means available involve greater risk of harm to the would-be killer, and are thus less likely to be used even impulsively.

Obviously, if the non-firearms homicide rate is rising, MORE PEOPLE than just the number of people who succeed in committing homicide are attempting homicide with non-firearms means, because fewer people - a fraction as many people - succeed in committing homicide when they use a means other than firearms.

And I'm damned if I can understand how imposing strict controls on firearms possession can be advanced as a reason why more people attempt to commit homicide. Really just damned.

Saying that a decline in the use of firearms is "offset" by a an increase in the the use of non-firearm weapons in homicides is like saying that a decline in the number of people going to Florida for vacation is offset by the rise in the number of people eating pizza for breakfast.

The two things are not related. The number of people who eat pizza for breakfast undoubtedly rose completely independently of the decline in the number of people going to Florida for vacation. And you have no evidentiary basis (that you've bothered to present, anyway) for saying that a rise in the number of people who killed someone with a non-firearm weapon was anything other than independent of the decline in the number of people using firearms to commit homicide.

And since YOU are the one claiming the substitution effect, you are the one needing to prove it.

.

[slackmaster]

75. You keep referring to impulse homicides

And there is nothing to support the idea that the one we're talking about was done on impulse. That's nonsense. He intentionally, deliberately, pre-meditatedly packed a loaded handgun and sought out his estranged wife and murdered her in public.

There is no evidence that Australian gun control has had any effect on the overall rate of successful homicides.

[Romulus]

82. not to mention

that the CDC study was from 1982-85, and was completely focused on 50 Ohio inmate interviewees that met the following criteria:

"(1) (homicide)occurred in Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, Toledo, Dayton, or Akron; 2) occurred between family members, relatives, or friends; 3) was committed with a firearm kept in the household; 4) victim and offender were greater than or equal to18 years of age; 5) occurred in or within the immediate vicinity of a residence; and 6) was not secondary to another crime."

No mention of assessing whether the firearm was legally owned.

"Less than half the offenders reported owning the firearm; only 26% reported that the weapon was purchased from a licensed dealer."

The FICAP report parrots the Kellerman studies, etc.

Anyway, my wife came home and I gotta go . . .

[MrSandman]

84. Comprehensive

[iverglas]

88. oh look, it's a grapefruit

not to mention
that the CDC study was from 1982-85, and was completely
focused on 50 Ohio inmate interviewees ...

Yeah, well, except I did mention it; I deliberately copied and pasted lines expressing the caveat about the data and conclusions.

The fact is that the kind of homicide examined in the study is a very common kind of homicide, and was the kind of homicide I happened to be talking about.

No mention of assessing whether the firearm was legally owned.

Uh ... that would be because whether the firearm was legally owned was completely fucking irrelevant to the point I was making. Do you *try* to follow?

The issue was READY ACCESS TO a firearm.

Ready access to firearms is one thing that firearms control measures are meant to restrict, and those measures are virtually absent in the US.

The issue in the study was the ACCESS to firearms. Whether stricter firearms control measures would reduce access to firearms, and would have eliminated the firearm in the situations in the cases studied, is an entirely separate question from the question considered in the study.

The data examined in the study, and conclusions reached from it, might be useful in deciding whether access to firearms *should* be more restricted, and what measures might be useful for that purpose. But whether the firearms in those cases were legally owned simply had no more to do with the purpose of the study that, oh, the price of tea in China.

But I give up: how do YOU think it was relevant?

"Less than half the offenders reported owning the firearm; only 26% reported that the weapon was purchased from a licensed dealer."

So ... whatever firearms control there is in the US, it doesn't seem to be working to prevent people from getting hold of firearms illegally. Would that be a reasonable aim of firearms control measures?

But whoa; I thought there was "no mention of assessing whether the firearm was legally owned". Somebody seems to be flying off in all directions, and I just can't follow that lead.

And again, do let's remember: these weren't drug dealer homicides; these were household homicides. Good of you to quote all those selection criteria; did you have a point?

.

[iverglas]

87. and you keep tossing oranges into the apple barrel

If you'd like to withdraw Australia from the discussion, we can get back to the case at hand. Meanwhile, please stop pretending that when I respond to your red herring I'm talking about the original haddock.

There is no evidence that Australian gun control has had any effect on the overall rate of successful homicides.

Round and round that mulberry bush you go.

There is undoubtedly also no evidence that Australian gun control has had any effect on the price of tea in China.

Remind us; what was the stated and intended purpose of those gun control measures?

And how's that going?

.

[CO Liberal]

37. When Adding Stories To These Threads,Sandpiper...

...please add them by responding to the ORIGINAL message. If you add them as a response to another message, it's harder to follow the comments.

[Sandpiper]

51. Will do

n/t

[MrBenchley]

31. Boy shot in car on interstate (TX)

"FORT WORTH - Road rage might have led to the shooting of a 5-year-old boy who was riding with his parents Monday night, police said.
Police responding to a reported shooting at 6:45 p.m. found the boy bleeding in the back seat of his parents' car on northbound Interstate 35W just north of the Loop 820 interchange.
The boy, accompanied by his mother, was taken to Cook Children's Medical Center, Cpl. D. Tuckness said. The child was reported to be in good condition Monday night.
The father told police that he, his wife and his son were westbound on Loop 820 when the driver of another car began making obscene gestures at them, Tuckness said.
The other driver first fired one shot from a semiautomatic handgun into the air, said Lt. Dean Sullivan, a police spokesman. After the family took the exit onto Interstate 35W, the other driver pulled alongside and fired at the car."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/local/8254951.htm

[MrBenchley]

32. Couple abducted by 3 men who use them to rob Subway in Lauderhill (FL)

"The incident occurred around 12:20 a.m., after Paula Alvarez, 25, got home from closing the Subway at 7744 W. Commercial Blvd. in Lauderhill. As she approached the front door of her house, an armed man confronted her.
Alvarez screamed, causing her husband, Juan Orrego, to run outside. The man forced Orrego to the ground at gunpoint and demanded the restaurant's bank deposit bag from Alvarez. When she said she didn't have the bag, the gunman forced the couple into their 2001 Mazda Tribute and made Alvarez drive back to the restaurant."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-ckidnap23mar23,0,5801973.story?coll=sfla-news-broward

[MrBenchley]

33. Easley Man Pleads Guilty In Double Murder (SC)

"Rod Waldrop admitted that he killed his wife, Connie Elaine Waldrop, 43, and Joshua Adam Waldrop, 21, in their Easley home one year ago Monday.
Neighbors called police after hearing gunfire inside the Ridgecrest Drive home. Waldrop surrendered to Easley police after an hourlong standoff. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=401&ncid=401&e=6&u=/ibsys/20040322/lo_wyff/2062359

[MrBenchley]

39. Teen Shot, Killed Riding With Friends On I-95 (FL)

"A 15-year-old was shot and killed when someone pulled beside the SUV he was riding in and starting shooting.
Detectives said Terry Jones was with several other teenagers riding on Interstate 95 about 1 a.m. Sunday when another vehicle -- described as either a red SUV or a pickup truck -- came up beside them and began firing.
Jones was the only one hit in the vehicle. The Ed White High School student died a short time later at Shands-Jacksonville Medical Center. "

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040323/lo_wjxt/2061583

[MrBenchley]

40. Baytown SWAT Standoff Ends (TX)

"A domestic dispute that turned into a nearly five-hour police standoff ended with two people dead Tuesday morning, News2Houston reported.
Baytown police and SWAT officers surrounded a home in the 100 block of Rosebud Tuesday morning where a man barricaded himself inside the house after reportedly shooting his girlfriend to death outside the home
Emergency dispatchers received a call shortly after 7 a.m. reporting that a woman who appeared to be dead was found on a sidewalk in front of the home. Neighbors told officials they heard several gunshots come from the home Tuesday morning."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=320&ncid=320&e=2&u=/ibsys/20040323/lo_kprc/2063660

[MrBenchley]

45. Police Find Motive In Insurance Agent Killing (TX)

"Officials said the motive behind Russell Allen's January death was his Rolex watch. The watch was a gift from his wife 35 years ago.
"We are offering up to $55,000 to catch somebody who killed a man over a watch that is worth, maybe, $500 or $600 out on the street," Crime Stoppers spokeswoman Kim Ogg said.
Investigators said the watch was the only item the killer took from Allen at his motorcycle insurance shop located off the Southwest Freeway.
Delores Allen, the victim's wife, told News2Houston she went to her husband's shop to take him to lunch and ended up walking into a homicide scene. She said she is still trying to come to terms with the killing.
"I found him on the floor with a bullet hole in his head," Allen's wife said. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=320&ncid=320&e=3&u=/ibsys/20040323/lo_kprc/2063183

[MrBenchley]

50. Parents Found Shot To Death (CT)

Another glorious celebration of "freedom."

"SCOTLAND -- A mother and father were fatally shot and their young child was seriously wounded Monday afternoon in a shooting at a private home, police said.
Although state police said they were not looking for any suspects outside the house, they would not speculate publicly as to who was responsible.
Police identified the mother as Shara Bartholomew, 23. She was pronounced dead at William W. Backus Hospital in Norwich. The child, Ava Bartholomew, about 15 months old, was flown by Life Star helicopter to Hasbro Children's Hospital in Providence, where she was in serious condition late Monday, said Nicole Gustin, a hospital spokeswoman.
Police had not released the name of the man, who was pronounced dead at the scene."

http://www.ctnow.com/news/yahoo/hc-scotshoot0323.artmar23,1,6055989.story?coll=hc-aol-yahoo-nws-hed

[MrBenchley]

52. Michigan City police officer shot (IN)

"MICHIGAN CITY, Ind. -- Two people were killed and a city police officer shot today in a residential neighborhood, police said.
An off-duty officer on his way to work was investigating a report of shots fired. He tried to enter a house when he was shot, police said.
The officer was in stable condition at a local hospital, Police Chief Gene Simmons said.
Other officers arrived soon after and found the house on fire with a body lying out front.
Police later found a person dead inside the home."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/131794-7744-093.html

[MrBenchley]

53. Gun confiscated from student at Bellevue school (WA)

"Newport High School in Bellevue is under lockdown this morning after a student brought a gun to school.
The gun was confiscated by a teacher and the student was taken into custody, a Bellevue School District official said. Bellevue police are on the scene. "

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001885997_webnewport23.html

[MrBenchley]

54. Trial is postponed for lack of jurors (IN)

"The trial of a man accused of firing an assault rifle at police was delayed Monday because too few people showed up for jury duty.
The lack of jurors meant Anthony Keith Brown's trial on attempted murder and other charges will be postponed until May 10, causing a "ripple effect" that will delay other trials and increase court costs.
Brown is accused of firing up to 50 shots from an assault rifle and wounding an officer while fleeing police in December 2002. He is charged with several offenses, including attempted murder. Indianapolis police Officer Linda Jackson was shot in the leg during the shootout near the intersection of Sherman and 32nd Street."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/2/131694-1982-009.html

[MrBenchley]

56. Teen arrested in fatal shooting of boy, 15 (VA)

 
Email this story
Yeah, a gun magazine for kids....there's a dandy idea....NOT!

"ASHBURN, Va. -- Authorities were holding a 17-year-old Tuesday in the shooting death of another teen inside a home in this quiet Loudoun County community.
The Loudoun County Sheriff's Office did not identify the suspect because of his age, but they said he was an Ashburn resident. He faced charges of involuntary manslaughter and reckless use of a firearm in the Monday night shooting of Donald Nicholas Shomaker, 15. "

http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/virginia/dp-va-brf--teenkilled0323mar23,0,51957.story?coll=dp-headlines-virginia

[slackmaster]

74. Man shoots, kills intruder (Salinas, CA)

Botched home invasion leaves one man dead

...The robbers tied up the occupant, identified by neighbors as a college student in his 20s, and left him in a back room as they ransacked the apartment, Groves said.

After untying himself, the man got out his own handgun and fired several shots at Herrera's chest, police said.

"At least three shots were fired from his own handgun," Groves said.

Police are still investigating whether the home-invasion victim has a firearms license. Groves said it's unclear why the robbers targeted the man's apartment....

Odd comment about the "firearms license" - There is no such thing per se (a license to have a firearm) in California. We do have a Handgun Safety Certificate or HSC that can be obtained by anyone with $25, ability to read simple English, and an IQ over about 70. An HSC is required in order to take delivery of a handgun from an FFL. Prior to the HSC (effective 1/1/2001 IIRC) there was a Basic Firearms Safety Certificate. Prior to about 1994 there was no equivalent.

Perhaps the police are trying to determine whether or not the victim had obtained the gun legally, which seems to me an unproductive line of investigation.

For full copyrighted article please see http://www.californianonline.com/news/stories/20040323/localnews/131606.html

[slackmaster]

80. Man Who Killed Armed Intruder Jailed Eight Years (UK)

...Carl Lindsay, 25, answered a knock at his door in Salford, Greater Manchester, to find four men armed with a gun.

When the gang tried to rob him he grabbed a samurai sword and stabbed one of them, 37-year-old Stephen Swindells, four times.

Mr Swindells, of Salford, was later found collapsed in an alley and died in hospital.

Lindsay, of Walkden, was found guilty of manslaughter following a three-week trial at Manchester Crown Court....

I guess in the UK you are supposed to do whatever an armed thug requests.

:eyes:

For full copyrighted article please see http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2687311

[MrSandman]

81. Gun toters halt robbery attempts (MI)

One posted yesterday

The Ft. Gratiot Township home owner answered his door on Keewahdin Road about 8 p.m. and was accosted by a 20-year-old Worth Township man armed with a handgun. When the young man's attention was diverted, police said the home owner grabbed his own .38-caliber handgun and fired.

"The round ended up coming out of his buttocks, so I'm sure he'll be thinking about that old man every time he sits down for a while," said Detective Lt. Mike Bloomfield of the St. Clair County Sheriff's Department.

<>

"This is one of those ones that you hear as a policeman and you go, 'All right!' " Bloomfield said. "I mean, a guy breaks into a man's house armed, prepared to do harm, and the man defends himself. That's great."

<>

"People should feel able to protect themselves in their own homes, there's some argument there," said Jacobs, who as a state representative voted against the concealed weapons law in 2002. "But do we want a bunch of vigilantes running around with guns to do the police's work?"

>>>It sounds like the criminals are making bad choices. Who is running around doing the police's(sic) work.