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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-04 07:55 AM
Original message
The Killing of America
Twenty years ago, Paul Schrader's older brother, Leonard, made a film about violence in America that Americans never got to see. Even his backers thought it was too gruesome. He still stands by the project. As he tells Geoffrey Macnab, it could save lives.


-- from "Life and death in the United States of Anger"
The Independent - London, UK, The Friday Review
Friday June 30, 2000


Question: Has anyone here seen this film? I haven't, but I think I would like to if I can find it.

The article suggests that Schrader sees the wide availability of guns as a key part of the problem, but he seems not to take into account the areas of the United States that have very widespread gun ownership, but whose social pattern of violence seems closer to the Japanese model: low rates of out-directed violence (murder), and high rates of inward-directed violence (suicide).


Also, I'm troubled by this:

Between 1900 and 1963, the murder rate in America had hardly changed at all. "In terms of the population growth, it may even have gone down, but the rate just rockets after the assassination of President Kennedy," he suggests. He can't pinpoint exactly why.


Er... didn't American murder rates rise enormously with the advent of Prohibition, and reach what may have been an all-time high in the 1930s?


Mary


A few more excerpts included below, but I really recommend going to http://www.leonardschrader.com/interviews/independant.shtm , and reading the entire article.
________________________________________________________________


Leonard Schrader grew up around guns. His family may have been strict Calvinists, but that didn't put them off hunting. Rifles were almost part of the furniture in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where he was born in 1944. "My uncles all had hunting guns and hunting dogs," he remembers. "They went bird hunting, deer hunting." The guns made him nervous, though. "I was always afraid of them, maybe because they made the possibility of suicide too easy when I was young." It's a fear which afflicted his little brother, Paul, too. In the films they went on to write and direct, that fear is often painfully evident.

(...)


Last week, The Killing of America, a documentary that Leonard Schrader made in 1981, was released for the first time in the UK (the DVD becomes available next month). It's one of those films that just disappeared off the radar. Made with Japanese money, it was shelved by its US distributors. "Let's just say two very powerful people in showbusiness were partners in a company. One loved the film, and paid a lot of money for the American rights. His partner saw it six weeks later, blew up and said, 'this is exploitation, a terrible film - we'll just eat the loss and make sure that it never shows in the US'."

(...)

Apart from anything else, the murderers are getting even younger. In the documentary, he shows footage of Brenda Spencer, the teenager who fired at passing school children with the rifle given to her for her 16th birthday because "Mondays are so boring". But now, he points out, seven-year-old children are shooting one another. He is baffled by Congress's continuing failure to ban handguns ("you couldn't walk into a 7:11 with a rifle very easily - people would see you coming"), but doesn't think America is ready to give up its love affair with weapons. "If you compare America to Canada, Americans, many of them, just don't want life to be that boring," he says by way of explanation.

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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-04 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Our culture suppresses sexuality
And glorifies violence. Studies have shown a direct correlation. In societies that are less prudish (Sweden, for example) they find that the more sex is openly discussed, the less violence there is in the society. An inverse relationship.

Less sex in the media = more violence in the media, and vice versa.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

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Frodo_Baggins Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Swedish murder rate = 10.8
US Murder radte = 4.6
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Too too funny....
Now we're going to have a phony Swedish bloodbath on these pages?

At least maybe this means that the RKBA crowd has stopped trying to lie about Australia, Canada and Great Britain...
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Frodo_Baggins Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-04 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Phony...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-04 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. So there were 167 murders...about the same as Memphis
Yeah, seems like the Swedish bloodbath is just as phony as the other ones the RKBA crowd flaps its gums about...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Try to contain your surprise, everybody....
"Murder.  The Swedish crime statistics include attempts but completed and attempted homicides are also shown separately.  The definition of a completed homicide is all criminal cases causing the death of the victim regardless of whether they are charged as murder, manslaughter or assault combined with causing another persons death.  In 1992 there were a total of 174 completed criminal homicides.  The corresponding figure for 1993 was 173.  However, a special analysis of all homicides recorded in 1992 showed that almost one third of the cases appearing in the statistics as completed homicides, in fact, were not.  The accurate figure should be around 120 cases.  This probably also holds for the 1993 figure.  The level of homicide has been fairly constant in Sweden since the mid 1970s, fluctuating between 120 to 140 homicides annually. "

http://www.isuisse.ifrance.com/emmaf/base/Sweden.html#CRIME

For the record, that's more homicides in a nation of 8.8 million, than Memphis, TN, with fewer than 700,000 souls, has all by itself in a typical year.

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Wingnut357 Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Yeah, Ok.
I think it may be a serious oversimplification to assume that sexual "repression" and gun violence are directly or even strongly correlated. Society is not such a simple equation.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-04 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm not very fond of Mondays, either
found it NS!
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. thanks!
Thank you, Lunabush! :)


Mary
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-04 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well...
...with about 5 minutes and a hacksaw you could.

"you couldn't walk into a 7:11 with a rifle very easily - people would see you coming"

Oh, but that would be illegal, wouldn't it?
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. what caused the "explosion"?
Firearms were more available during the 1900-1963 period, (i.e. no background checks, cash & carry, even mail order) but the murder rate was lower than post-1968.

Canada's murder rate has stayed below the US rate, even during that 1900-1963 period, while CAN firearms availability was roughly equivalent (but with background checks IIRC).
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. Long term homicide rates coincide
Nicely with Prohibition in the early part of the 20th century and the War on Drugs and also unemployment in the latter half.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I have a hard time trusting stats prior to 1930s
The federal Government was NOT into Crime statistics prior to that date AND some states also did not keep such statistics (Why? all it did was hurt your state's image). Thus Homicide per 100,000 prior to 1930 may be bias i.e. the climb in the period 1900-1930 may just reflect more and more states reporting homicides as opposed to an increase in homicides.

Now starting in the 1930s the federal Government and the states wanted accurate Statistics to fight the Great Depression. Out of this need for better Data came today's Statistical system.

Thus I can not trust the Homicide rates prior to 1930 (On a national Basis, some of the state's rates I would trust but that would be on a State by State basis).

That said, the Get Depression and WWII and the 1950s saw a decline in Homicides (Which is reflected in the reports I have seen that shows a drop in Homicides since the Civil War). Whatcaused this declineadnthe raise
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Continued...
As I was about to say in my last paragraph before I had to shut down my computer, Statistics prior to 1930 are just not reliable enough to use for comparison purposes. For example many of the Lynchings that occurred in the American South just were NOT reported, I do not mean not reported as Homicides, but not reported AT ALL. I believe it was the NAACP who started to keep a log of the Lynchings because no one else was keeping a count on them.

This failure to count Lynchings as homicides would affect Homicides counts (and rates) till the 1930s when Lynchings started to decline (But persisted for decades). Please note the reports as to the Number of Lynchings were generally based on Newspaper accounts NOT police records. I do believe Lynchings were reported as Homicides in the 1930s but only where Police existed:

Lynchings by Year:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.htm1

Some Famous lynchings:
http://www.americanlynching.com/infamous-old.html#1859

The Tulsa Riots (Also would not be counted for in the opinion of the City of Tulsa it never occurred):
http://www.assumption.edu/ahc/raceriots/


Another source of Error is the existence of Police. Prior to 1903 (When Pennsylvania formed its State Police) NO STATE HAD A STATE POLICE FORCE as we would use that term today. It took till 1919 for FOUR states to have some sort of centralized police formation. Without such organizations it was hard to gather up the data.

If a local area had a police force it would keep that data for its own use, but no one at the state or Federal Level existed to gather such local data let alone enter the data into some sort of data base. In areas WITHOUT police, you would have to contact the part-time District Attorney and/or part time Sheriff for such data, but both had other priorities (i.e. earning a living, neither job paid that much in areas without a local police force).

With the establishment of State Police Forces, the local police had a place to send their crime data AND the areas without a local police had a force that they could at least report the crime to. This is all the product of the 1930s and as such the data prior to the 1930s has to be looked at with some suspicions.


See for history of the Pennsylvania State police:
http://www.psp-hemc.org/history.htm

For more on Governor Samuel Whitaker Pennypacker (1843-1916) See:
http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/bah/DAM/governors/pennypacker.asp?secid=31

History of the West Virginia State Police the Fourth State Police Formed in 1919 (Counting Texas as the First and Pennsylvania as the Second):
http://www.wvstatepolice.com/history/wvsphist.html

Delaware did not have a State Police Force till 1920 and than it was a one man force:
http://www.state.de.us/dsp/museum/DSP%20History.htm

Official Texas Ranger’s Cite (They claim 1835, but admit they have been reorganized over the years and evolved from a Frontier Military Force (1835-1865), as an occupational force (as the Texas State Police 1866-1875), again as a Frontier Military Force 1875-1901, as a police force (But no uniforms) 1901-1935, and as a Modern Uniformed Police Force (1935-present):
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/texas_rangers/#Historical%20Development

http://www.texasrangers.org/

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/TT/met4.html


Here is a Cite with links to official state police sites:
http://www.statetroopersdirectory.com/

Text only version:
http://www.statetroopersdirectory.com/index2.html

Wisconsin Did not have a State Police force till 1939:
http://www.dot.state.wi.us/statepatrol/about/history.htm

State of Washington State Police formed in 1921:
http://www.wsp.wa.gov/about/about.htm

Vermont had a “Highway Patrol” in 1920s, but it did not form its State Police till 1947:
http://www.dps.state.vt.us/vtsp/history.htm
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