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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 07:23 PM
Original message
Former infantryman sentenced for selling machine guns and explosives
http://www.kfvs12.com/story/14641361/former-soldier-sentenced-for-selling-machineguns

A former Fort Campbell, Ky. soldier was sentenced to 12 months and 1 day behind bars for selling 2 machine guns and distributing explosive materials without a license.

Eric D. Waldman, a former infantryman with Company A, 1st Battalion, 506th Infantry, pleaded guilty to 3 three counts of a federal indictment on Sept. 14, 2011, according to U.S. Attorney David J. Hale. He says Waldman was sentenced on May 12, 2011.

According to court records, Waldman was a soldier in the U.S. Army at the time of these offenses were committed.

The federal indictment states on January 17, 2010, in Christian County, Ky., Waldman sold a Special wWeapons Model SW5 9 mm machine gun and a Claymore Mine to an ATF agent, who was undercover, for $10,000.

<more>

Thank the Godess for the ATF

yup
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hope they didnt send it to Mexico... nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Should have used the sarcasm thingie
Welcome to DU

:hi:
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. So this "only one" was caught selling machine guns. Multiply this anecdote by several thousand and
That's how many government employees in Mexico are selling US government authorized full military weapons to drug lords illegally.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Exaggerate much?
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fuck, we need to disarm the military... STAT!
All these automatic weapons and explosives getting into the wrong hands...

Reducing the availability of guns and ammo clearly is the only viable solution.

Where's sharesunited when you need him?

BAN THEM!! BAN THEM ALL!
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Nidal Hasan bought his guns at the Guns Galore store in Killeen.
Jared Loughner bought his gun at the Sportman's Warehouse store.

That is not OK.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. And if civilian guns weren't available?
Edited on Sun May-15-11 08:03 PM by LAGC
I imagine desperate people, especially in Nidal Hassan's situation, would find their way to military arms, or others would find their way to them through underground channels.

If anything, it could be much worse. We could see fully automatic weapons on the streets of big cities if semi-autos weren't so much easier to obtain. Kind of like in Mexico, where its easier for criminals to get full-autos than it is semi-automatics.

Be careful what you wish for, shares...
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Desperate people may want nuclear weapons, yet no one seems to disagree with strict control.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. That's true.
Edited on Sun May-15-11 08:21 PM by LAGC
But its a lot easier to protect an unwieldy nuclear weapon than it is an automatic firearm which many thousands of soldiers (even National Guard) have access to and can much more easily steal, from armories and the like.

If the black market price was right, many otherwise good soldiers might be tempted by the opportunity.
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Clearly you've never seen how weapons are stored in the military
or you'd know how ridiculous that statement is.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Oh? Why don't you explain for all of us rubes then?
Edited on Sun May-15-11 10:28 PM by LAGC
There are stories about military items being stolen all the time.

Here's a Google News search query for you:

http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&tbs=nws%3A1&hl=en&gl=us&q=armory#sclient=psy&hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&source=hp&q=armory+theft&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=32ad1a3119fd652c

Its not like guards can't be bought off for the right price, or storage depots broken into. Our local National Guard armory here in Boise, Idaho was broken into just a few years ago and some C-4 and other explosives were stolen. They tried to keep a lid on it, but someone on the inside leaked it to the press.

The point is, the problem would be much worse if civilian arms were all outlawed.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. "all the time"?
I think you are exagerating a bit.

Military weapons are stored in armored vaults and secure rooms, and either a multi-layer alarm system or under constant guard.

Theft of non-consumable items is very rare, and almost always immediately traceable to someone with authorized access.

In a N.G. facility, which may well not be manned 24/7, it is possible to slowly break in and disable alarms along the way, but it will be discovered eventually, as they have to do inventories several times a year, and have random spot-checks for this very purpose.

Generally, theft of actual firearms is accomplished under false reports of loss. And since these are investigated pretty rigorously, the ones who try are almost universally at the lower end of whatever scale you use for "smart".
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I do know this much
even before the NFA was passed, that is how Dillinger and peers got their Thompsons and BARs.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. Yes, and we spend a good deal more attention to military hardware now. n/t
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #49
98. OK so that was not one of my more profound posts, my bad.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #98
123. Actually, I apologize, I didn't mean for that to come across as an accusation.
I was a bit abrupt with my wording trying to get to work. Mea Culpa.
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
84. I can't speak for every National Guard unit
But the one I was in had a standard arms room (vault) and stored the bolts for all the weapons (except the officer's pistols) in the arms room at the local PD. So, even if you had got into the building and into the vault the weapons would have been worthless to you.

For a time they also had someone living at the armory so there was always someone there.

I was in a unit that lost an M16 in Germany in the 80's and the entire world stopped until they found that weapon. We stayed in the field for 2 months before they moved us to Camp Aachen at Graf, we walked lines around that post every day literally from can see to can't see. CID rousted us out at random times to search out belongings, no one was even allowed to use the latrine alone and the three people most suspected in the weapon's disappearance were incarcerated the entire time we looked.

no one is walking out of an arms room w/ an unathorized weapon
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #28
58. Hahaha you should have seen Fort Lewis turned on it's ear, just because some
officer 'misplaced' his Night Vision Goggles. No leave for the entire unit. Everyone had to turn out and search for them.

Theft of that nature is actually VERY rare in the military. Everything is tracked. Checked out. Checked in. Checked for damage. Etc.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #58
116. Wow, some of you guys are pretty defensive of the military.
I appreciate hearing your anecdotal accounts, and I admit I was exaggerating when I said the problem was happening "all the time" -- but quite a few times over the years, at least -- enough to take note of any way. (And those are only the incidents that made the news -- I imagine the military doesn't much like to advertise such unpleasant findings when they occur.)

But I mean, if there were no criminal element in the oh-so-holy military ranks, why would we need military police for? You can have the most secure security system in the world, all sorts of alarms and technology to protect stuff, but its only as good as its weakest link, which is usually the human factor. Doesn't take much of a conspiracy between just a few key players to defeat it.

Tracking and inventory control is great, and I'm sure balls get busted whenever there's a discrepancy found, but that is more akin to closing the barn doors after the cows have already escaped. Doesn't change the fact that losses do occur.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. I agree, theft happens.
Particularly from the people who have checked it out. That's the safest route. Few would be dumb enough to sell something they checked out themselves. Putting the onus on the holder of the device to ensure it's location helps, but doesn't prevent theft, as you point out. Individuals misplace things. Individuals sleep. Individuals use the restroom, or shower. Individuals turn their backs on their stuff momentarily.


Nobody said the military was full of angels. Simply put, your initial premise seemed wildly over-stated. Yes, our military does 'leak' some weapons. Very few, however. And the loss point is usually quickly identified.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. "why would we need military police for?"
Base defense, for starters. Criminals coming in from the outside.

Usually they most exciting part of the day is issuing a speeding ticket for doing 27 mph in a 25 mph zone. (yes, they are that strict).

And the point you've missed is that, while on occasion troops do steal stuff (rarely), it is pretty much always discovered, and the hammer-fall is abrupt and painful.
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
86. I notice you've altered your reply after reading the responses
But its a lot easier to protect an unwieldy nuclear weapon than it is an automatic firearm which many thousands of soldiers (even National Guard) have access to and can much more easily steal, from armories and the like.

For your convenience I have posted your original statement above.

Bottom line no one just walks into an arms room and takes a weapon and walks out. In some units all gun owners are required by the commander to store their personal ( to be perfectly clear I am talking about non military civilian weapons that they personally own) weapons in the unit arms room and they need permission to sign even those out.

A unit arms room is totally different form some storage depot somewhere. Although it has been my experince that all explosives are stored on an active duty military instillation under gaurd at all times so I question the idaho guard losing C4 as well
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
34. unless the International Shooting Sports Federation
or the Olympics has a nuke category or people like their venison precooked and really well done, your post flew over my head. But then, banal things usually do go over my head.
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Oneka Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Sure it was ok.
murdering innocent people was the part that was not ok.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
57. Isn't that like saying, just because morphine is sold from the shelf instead of behind the glass
the problem is lack of self control?

The decision finally comes to move it behind the glass and strictly control whether it is dispensed at all.
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Oneka Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #57
77. Not at all
It's like saying that purchasing and owning a gun or guns, is a protected right in this country.
Murdering multiple people is illegal in this country.

And further, of these two acts , one does not necessarily show causation for the other.


Drugs of any kind should't be used as a benchmark on how we deal with selling and ownership of guns.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #77
88. We were once able to buy morphine without a prescription. As a "right" you might say.
Then a harm to society was acknowledged and we stopped that practice.
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Oneka Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #88
95. You might say
That buying morphine was a right, depending in how literally you
Interpreted the 9th, and 10th amendments.
But ,...
Has the right to buy morphine without a prescription ever been adjudicated
at the supreme court level as has my individual right to keep and bear arms?
Both of these men bought their guns through FFL dealers no?
That
means that they passed background tests, such as they were ,to satisfy
the law. No law was broken until they opened fire on innocent people.

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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. Morphine is safer for society than guns and ammo, but access to it is more restricted.
That's inconsistent public policy.

Abuse of morphine is by the user against himself. Abuse of firearms is against others, unless you want to include suicide.

It highlights the absurdity of elevating the possession of firearms to a so-called right.

Does not pass the smell test.
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Oneka Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #99
103. If you think it stinks.
Then get the 2nd amendment repealed. Good luck with doing that without starting a war though.
There are people in this country, who will still fight and die for that right.
How is that gonna work out for public policy.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. They are confused and you are contributing to their confusion.
The so-called "right" cannot be justified, and will crumble by virtue its own fragile irrationality.

Emotional attachment to the means of capriciously killing our fellow citizens must finally give way to reason. For the good of the commonwealth.
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Oneka Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #105
114. If you expect gun rights
To just crumble you have nothing to worry about.
I don't suspect that it will happen in my lifetime though.
In the meantime I , and millions like me will avail ourselves of that right.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #114
127. You have just declared that you are part of the problem.
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Oneka Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. I'll stand by my statement.
Edited on Wed May-18-11 09:44 AM by Oneka
But I'm only part of the problem, to those who favor, tyranny, and authoritarianism,
over liberty, and the protection of civil rights.
I think your statement clearly illustrates which side of that fence you fall on.

I will continue to express my 1st, and 2nd amendment rights as I carry my pistol around on my person.
I will also advocate just as strongly for your right to express your opinion about my rights, even if i disagree,with that opinion.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. According the gunners here, the ATF never does anything worthwhile.

If someone want automatic weapons and mines, they should have them.

Thanks ATF. Now, get serious about gun shows and so-called "dealers" who skirt the intent of the law.
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. If someone want automatic weapons and mines, they should have them.
OMG you finally said something I agree w/ !!!
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Yeah thanks ATF..
aren't they just wonderful?

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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. They were pretty lenient -- giving the murdering, raping bunch over 51 days to surrender.

I guess you also defend R Weaver for selling illegal guns and being an armed racist. How about Timmie McVeigh? Do you have a leather bound copy of "The Turner Diaries" on you coffee table?
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Does clinging to misconceptions based on false information and/or outright untruths comfort you?
Edited on Sun May-15-11 09:14 PM by beevul
"They were pretty lenient -- giving the murdering, raping bunch over 51 days to surrender."

Murdering? Who exactly did they murder?

Rape? Who exactly was raped?

Injecting CS into a building containing CHILDREN, which turns into cyanide when it combusts - thats your idea of lenient?

"I guess you also defend R Weaver for selling illegal guns and being an armed racist."

Entrapped, with the intent of coercing him to turn informant.


And he was a separatist which, like it or not, people have every right to be, regardless of race creed color gender or sexual prefference.


I guess we now know what "lenient" means in the world of hoyt...

I guess we'll know exactly what you mean if you ever say the law should come down hard on a person or group of persons.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. 50 days earlier your group between raping children shot ATF agents and then holed up for 51 days.

Entrapment? The fucker would have sold those weapons to racists if the ATF didn't get them first.

"Separatist", "Supremacist", Worthless piece of garbage -- who cares what you call the racist pigs? Do you think the Aryan Nation is an honorable bunch because they like the same weapons you do?
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
44. I'll ask again.
"50 days earlier your group between raping children shot ATF agents and then holed up for 51 days."

Who was raped? Cite it.

And the shooting of ATF agents? Found not guilty in a court of law, on the grounds of self defense. I bet that makes you smile.

"Entrapment? The fucker would have sold those weapons to racists if the ATF didn't get them first."

Thats your opinion, and your entitled to it, even if it is ignorant of the facts of the matter.


Put some facts where your flapping trap is.


"Do you think the Aryan Nation is an honorable bunch because they like the same weapons you do?"

Do you think convicted murderer/million mom marcher/gun control pusher barbara lipscomb is honorable because she thought the same things about gun control that you do?
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
56. The people in
the compound at Waco murdered everyone in the compound when they refused to answer the door. They chose their own fate.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. Another factose intolerant post.
They DIDN'T refuse to answer the door.

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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. ohhh
Edited on Mon May-16-11 01:25 AM by MyrnaLoy
so they honored the search warrant and everyone lived happily ever after now, I get it. And none of this was found either I guess:

ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
Machine guns

The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode:

22 M-16 Type Rifles

20 AK-47 Type Rifles

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers,
or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's
residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it
would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
(Including Weapons Mentioned on Previous Page)

FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components

61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers

61 AK-47 Type

34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers

13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge

11 7.62MM FN FAL Type

10 Mini-14 Type

7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type

6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1

6 Assorted Rifles

5 M-11/Nine

5 M-14 Type

3 Galil

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

1 Air Rifle

1 Heckler and Koch MP-5

1 Sten submachine gun

Pistols and Revolvers

23 Beretta

13 Glock

8 Assorted Revolvers

6 Safari Arms

6 Assorted Pistols

5 Sig Sauer

5 Walther

2 Taurus

EXPLOSIVES

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies
of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge
or fusing system.

11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these
grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications.

219 Grenade Safety Pins

243 Grenade Safety Levers

Rifle Grenades

200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.

FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers.

Flash Suppressors

18 Flash Suppressors.

Firearms Barrels

17 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)

8 M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber)

3 M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber)

1 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)

2 Ruger. 22 Caliber

1 M-60 machine gun

1 12 Gauge Shotgun

1 Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel

1 Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel

Pistol Slides

1 Sig Sauer Model

Revolver Parts

1 .38 Special caliber cylinder

Bolt Carriers

39 M-16

24 AR-15

2 MP-5

2 AK-47

1 FAL

1 Unknown

Bolts

15 AK-47

7 .22 LR conversion

3 M-16/AR-15

1 FN FAL (1)

Bolt Assemblies

3 M-11/Nine

2 M-16

1 AR-15

1 MAC-10

1 Shotgun

Recoil Springs and Guides

3 Glock

2 Sig Sauer

1 Beretta

1 M-11/Nine

Stripper Clips

29 Stripper Clips

Accessories

6 .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits

Hammers

31 AK-47

18 M-16

12 AR-15

4 M-11/Nine

2 Sig Sauer

1 Beretta

Hammer Springs

3 AK-47

Buffer/Recoil Springs

36 M-16/AR-15

4 AK-47

Selector Switches

9 M-16

3 AR-15

1 Unknown

Sears

1 M-11/Nine

Auto Sears

8 AK-47

4 M-16

1 FN FAL

Auto Sear Springs

12 AK-47

Disconnects

7 AK-47

1 M-16

Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings

17 M-16

6 AR-15

3 M-60

3 M-11/Nine

2 MP-5

2 Sten

1 AK-47

1 Heckler & Koch

1 M-14

1 Smith & Wesson

1 Beretta

1 Shotgun

Ammunition Magazines

289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type

248 .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type

108 Sten Gun Type

88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type

72 M-14 Type

61 Beretta Model Type 92

58 .308 Caliber of Unknown Type

28 Ruger Mini-14 Type

22 .22 Caliber

17 UZI Type

16 USAS-12 Type

13 .45 Caliber

11 Glock

11 MP-5

11 Sig Sauer P226/P228

9 Unknown Type

7 .308 Caliber Galil Type

6 Walther PPK

5 9mm Unknown Type

4 .50 Caliber

3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine

3 .380 Auto Caliber

2 9mm Smith & Wesson

1 AK-74 Type

1 Grendel

Ammunition Containers

220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers)

15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers)

4 Buckets (Varioius Calibers)

1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)

Magazine Springs

360 M-16/AR-15

42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type

35 AK-47

28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type

15 Unknown

10 M-14

6 M-1 Carbine

3 .50 Caliber

1 Mini-14 Magazine

1 Glock
These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from
the Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear
sights, gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers,
compensators, .50 caliber belt links and numerous other parts.


The convicted Davidians, who received sentences of up to 40 years,<69> were:

Kevin A. Whitecliff—convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
Jaime Castillo—convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
Paul Gordon Fatta—convicted of conspiracy to possess machine guns and aiding Davidian leader David Koresh in possessing machine guns.
Renos Lenny Avraam (British national) —convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
Graeme Leonard Craddock (Australian national) —convicted of possessing a grenade and using or possessing a firearm during a crime.
Brad Eugene Branch—convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
Livingstone Fagan (British national) —convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
Ruth Riddle (Canadian national) —convicted of using or carrying a weapon during a crime.
Kathryn Schroeder—sentenced to three years after pleading guilty to a reduced charge of forcibly resisting arrest.

Eight Davidians were convicted on firearms charges. The court found that, on February 28, 1993, the Davidians initiated a gun battle when they fired at federal officers who were attempting to serve lawful warrants. ATF agents returned gunfire to the building, the court ruled, in order to protect themselves and other agents from death or serious bodily harm.

Spread your bullshit elsewhere these are the facts!



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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. Oh look...more ignorance.
THE INITIAL RAID

No crimes had been committed by David Koresh or the members of his group when, on February 28, 1993, they were invaded by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. There had been some unsubstantiated talk about the group planning to commit mass suicide, but even if it had been true, this is not within the A.T.F.'s purview. Nor is child abuse--not that that charge had been substantiated, either, nor had the weapons-cache charge. So the first attack on the compound was totally uncalled for.

Hall points out that the A.T.F. men were not identifiable to the people in the house because the lettering labeling them as A.T.F. agents appears on the back of their black uniforms, not the front. So to the Davidians, the men attacking them were unknown assailants dressed in black. Adding to the confusion and fear of February 28, as well as to the body count, was a helicopter gunship firing down on the roof of the house. Why this brutal military-style assault, in which six Davidians died, was necessary is puzzling. Hall asks, "Why did they not take the sheriff out there, who several times before had served warrants down there and never had a problem? Why didn't they just go down there with a couple of men in business suits?"

An account of the raid by a Davidian survivor is chilling. Clyde Doyle recalls, "David advised everybody to stay cool and to go back to their rooms. He would go and talk to at the front door. I then went back to my room, which was in the front of the building on the first floor, up towards the north end. Within a minute or so, I heard his voice at the door saying, 'Hold on a minute. There are women and children here. We need to talk about this.' Before he could get the last words out of his mouth, shots came from the outside....

A.T.F. agent Darrell Dyer, when he arrived at Waco on February 23, 1993, was stunned to find that no mandatory documentation of the raid plan had been made. Dyer and agent William Krone set out to draft a plan. But on the morning of February 28, the plan was never distributed. It remained in Krone's desk.

The very warrant they were to serve was also left behind.

Ten days after the raid, A.T.F. agent Roland Ballesteros made two statements to the Texas Rangers that the A.T.F. shot first and made no announcement that they were federal agents.

It is well-documented that David Koresh had left the complex many times while under the surveillance of as many as eight A.T.F. agents. Agent Robert Rodriguez told Hall that the reason Koresh was not arrested when he was observed leaving was that they had a search warrant, but no arrest warrant. But when Hall checked at the courthouse in Waco, he found that the warrant was, in fact, an arrest warrant.

According to investigators, C.S. gas was pumped into the compound from 6:00 to 12:00 noon on the day of the fire. C.S. is a toxic tear gas designed for open-air use to disperse riots. In confined spaces, it has been known to combine with other compounds to form the deadly hydrogen cyanide gas. At noon, government tanks hit the compound with a big injection of an atomized mixture of orthochlorobenzylidene malononitrile and ethanol. The mixture was heated so that it would release hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide into a vapor. Autopsies indicate that large numbers of people were already dead from hydrogen cyanide gas before the fire. People died from cyanide poisoning within four to five minutes.

http://www.bigeye.com/pentwaco.htm


One can not "honor" a search warrant if one is never presented with.

I noticed you didn't like your source there. How come eh?


And then theres this:

Who fired first?Rolland Ballestros, one of the agents assigned to the ATF door team that assaulted the front door, told Texas Rangers and Waco police that he thought the first shots came from the ATF dog team assigned to neutralize the Davidians’ dogs, but later at the trial he insisted that the Davidians had shot first.<72> (Ballestros was not called by the government in the later trials.) The Davidians claimed that the ATF door team then opened fire at the door and they returned fire in self-defense.

Helicopters had been obtained from the Alabama and Texas National Guard on the pretext that there was a drug laboratory at Mount Carmel.<26><73> There were, however, no drug related charges on the arrest warrant served on the morning of February 28, 1993."<74><75> The official version of events has always stated that the helicopters were merely used as a diversion, that the crew only had 9 millimeter sidearms, and that no shot was made from them.<36> Conspiracy theorists cite this transcript of the negotiations to say that one negotiator admitted that the occupants might have fired:

Koresh: "No! Let me tell you something. That may be what you want the media to believe, but there's other people that saw too! Now, tell me Jim, again - you're honestly going to say those helicopters didn't fire on any of us?"
Jim Cavanaugh: "What I'm saying is the helicopters didn't have mounted guns. Ok? I'm not disputing the fact that there might have been fire from the helicopters."<76>

An Austin Chronicle article noted, "Long before the fire, the Davidians were discussing the evidence contained in the doors. During the siege, in a phone conversation with the FBI, Steve Schneider, one of Koresh's main confidants, told FBI agents that "the evidence from the front door will clearly show how many bullets and what happened."<77> Houston attorney Dick DeGuerin, who went inside Mount Carmel during the siege, testified at the trial that protruding metal on the inside of the right-hand entry door made it clear that the bullet holes were made by incoming rounds. DeGuerin also testified that only the right-hand entry door had bullet holes, while the left-hand entry door was intact. The government presented the left-hand entry door at the trial, claiming that the right-hand entry door had been lost. The left-hand door contained numerous bullet holes made by both outgoing and incoming rounds. Texas Trooper Sgt. David Keys testified that he witnessed two men loading what could have been the missing door into a U-Haul van shortly after the siege had ended, but he did not see the object itself. And Michael Caddell, the lead attorney for the Davidians' wrongful death lawsuit explained, "The fact that the left-hand door is in the condition it's in tells you that the right-hand door was not consumed by the fire. It was lost on purpose by somebody." Caddell offered no evidence to support this allegation, which has never been proved.<77> However, fire investigators stated that it was "extremely unlikely" that the steel right door could have suffered damage in the fire much greater than did the steel left door, and both doors would have been found together. The right door remains missing, and the entire site was under close supervision by law enforcement officials until the debris—including both doors—had been removed.."<77>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#Trial

And this:

E.R. Tausch was a court observer during the Waco trial. This article is a description of what events he witnessed during the trial.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Branch Davidian Trial
by Egon Richard Tausch
Nancy Kerrigan never staggered under such a handicap as the surviving Branch Davidians had to overcome in their murder and conspiracy trial, one year after the bloody attack, siege, and final assault on their communal home.

At the last, they prevailed. The result was anything but foreordained. The trial, however, seemed to be over before it started. In a virtually unprecedented move, U.S. District Judge Walter Smith decided to choose an initial jury panel of 84, which he personally selected out of an original "jury wheel" of 300, basing his selections entirely on answers supplied by the potential jurors to a lengthy questionnaire concerning their attitudes toward gun control, religion, government, and federal agencies.

Judge Smith overruled separate trials for several defendants, increasing the chance of conflicting, and therefore ineffectual, defenses.

Almost half of the subpoenas for witnesses requested by the defense were refused by the court, some on the flimsiest grounds or no grounds at all.

Finally, throughout the evidentiary portion of the trial, the court refused to permit any direct or indirect hint of the issue of self-defense on the Davidians' part -- neither in cross- examination of prosecution witnesses, nor in testimony or other evidence put on by the defense.

The judge regularly sustained prosecution objections whenever defense questions could be interpreted as leading toward governmental misconduct.

This broad prohibition ruled out issues about the sufficiency of the notorious affidavit "supporting" the ATF warrants; the legality of the warrants themselves; the requirements for service and execution of a warrant; the use of the words "assault" or "attack" in reference to ATF actions; discussion of the Davidians killed by the ATF agents; or any use of the Treasury or FBI reports.

It also made putting any of the defendants themselves on the witness stand a futile and dangerous exercise. The only questions they could have been asked, after giving up their right to silence, hostile ones.

That appeared to leave only two possible defenses: The four dead ATF agents were actually not killed by anyone but died of natural causes, or the Davidians weren't there at the time.

For that matter, the latter defense wouldn't have been much good, either; the second-most serious charge was "conspiracy to commit murder," which charge didn't require the defendants' presence at Mt. Carmel. Nor did the lesser charges. In fact, four of the eleven defendants were elsewhere, during the bloody battle in which six Davidians and four ATF agents died.

All of these matters were decided, as legal issues routinely are, outside the hearing of the jury.

The defense did win a few. Prosecution witnesses avoided using the prejudicial words "cult" and "compound" -- the latter a military-sounding term never used by the inhabitants of Mt. Carmel -- for almost half of the trial.

As for, the "sniper tower," or "watch tower," at Mt. Carmel, which the ATF and FBI had repeatedly labeled and pointed out to America's television viewers, the court instructed that it be identified as the only thing it had ever been used for: a huge water-storage tank on which the 100-200 inhabitants relied for drinking and sanitation.

And the defense did have one major legal break which no court or ruling could seem to get around: The presumption of innocence. Therefore the Government had the burden of putting on at least some evidence. This disadvantage proved to be the prosecution's undoing.

Emotional or inattentive jurors certainly observed an impressive government case: weapons parts found in the ashes of the burned Davidian center; clean-cut, articulate agents describing their "attempt to execute a warrant" and grieving over fallen comrades; one ATF medic's courage; a horrific account of a grievously wounded agent who lay conscious but unattended for two hours. Kathy Schroeder's chilling description of David Koresh's on-again-off-again ideas for a mass suicide after the battle. The early testimony by Texas Rangers about the weapons and weapons-parts found in the ashes of Mt. Carmel apparently had a strong effect on the out-of-state media. The prosecutors obligingly posted pre-printed lists all over the press room, to horrified comments by Eastern reporters who weren't sure of the difference between a bolt-action .22 rifle and a fully-automatic AK-47, but were sure they were all utterly evil and must be illegal, and what more would jurors need to know for guilty verdicts on all counts?

The U. S. Attorneys, however, had to take a Texas jury into account, and soon gave up trying for shock value in the courtroom, especially since the Ranger witnesses were visibly uncomfortable testifying as involuntary federal "deputies." Of course, due to the pre-trial rules, the Rangers were no more free to be questioned about ATF actions than they had been free to investigate them independently at the time. They were deputized by the feds, probably illegally, at the very beginning of their investigation during the siege of Mt. Carmel. Unfortunately for the prosecution, their case could not be presented without multitudes of still and videotaped scenes of the February 28, 1993, ATF approach and massive assault on Mt. Carmel.

For no readily discernable reason, the lengthy last part of the prosecution's case concerned the final, fiery attack by the FBI on April 19. This was irrelevant to the murder charges and could not only have the most tenuous connection with the conspiracy or other charges. It could have swayed jury sympathy in either direction.

Despite many attempts, the prosecution failed to establish conclusively which side started the fire -- Davidians or FBI tanks smashing through kerosene lamps, candles, and large quantities of fuel during a windstorm.

The jury listened to edited parts of a tape-recording from hidden microphones inside Mt. Carmel during the final attack and fire of April 19. These consisted of sounds of static during which one could faintly hear a voice or saying "fire." A government expert testified that through electronic enhancement, he reconstructed some clearly incriminating comments, even if the jury couldn't hear them. There was no mention of when, how, by whom, or under what authority the Davidians' home had been so extensively bugged before the raid.

The prosecution failed also to establish which side fired its weapons first during the ATF raid on February 28. Indeed, it seemed to be afraid of the issue. All of Mt. Carmel's windows were shut at the moment of the ATF's arrival, and none of the people glimpsed inside or outside was visibly armed.

The position that the ATF was "attempting to serve a warrant" fell apart when, during cross-examination, agent after agent denied that he had a warrant, or knew of anyone who had one, or ever announced one, or heard anyone else announce one, or ever had any orders to do anything but shoot at windows, walls, and people, scale ladders and smash into rooms, throw concussion grenades, or other warlike activities. The prosecution did not choose to call the ATF leaders, on the stand, and the defense was prohibited from doing so. Only Roland Ballesteros, the first agent to testify, claimed he shouted out that the raiders were ATF and that they had a warrant. He stated he made this announcement before any shooting started, while he ran, weapon pointed, toward David Koresh, who was standing unarmed at the front doors with two other unarmed Davidians behind him. "He responded, 'What's going on?'" Ballesteros then added that Koresh closed the doors with a "smirk" and fired at him through them. Since this was at the time of Koresh's wounding, Ballesteros was asked how he knew it was Koresh firing out, not agents firing in. The Agent replied that he could see the "wood or plywood" chips flying away from the bullet-holes.

In cross examination, the defense attorney mildly pointed out that the doors were made entirely of thin metal. The agent reluctantly admitted this. (The bullet-scarred door in question had mysteriously disappeared after the initial investigation.) Almost as an afterthought, the defense elicited agent Ballesteros' admission that in the several previous official statements he had made since that bloody day he had confessed to lying in a shallow ditch at the time. Never before had he mentioned shouting anything or seeing anything, other than a dog killed at the edge of the ditch, in the first shots he heard, which came from the ATF "dog team." The prosecutors promptly got Ballesteros off the stand and replaced him with more credible agents.)

Most telling was the ATF agents' descriptions, under cross-examination, of their intensive training for the raid, coached by Green Berets at Fort Hood. They admitted that they staged "about 15 or 20" practice raids on a mock Mt. Carmel, and that in each raid the orders and outcome were the same: a military assault from several directions at once, constant firing, scaling of ladders, smashing of windows with crowbars, throwing concussion grenades in them, then "securing" the rooms by killing or capturing the inhabitants.

None of the practice-sessions involved the required policy of "Knock and Announce."

Neither then nor in the raid itself did any agent witness ever learn who was to have or announce warrants, or approach the front doors, or who or how many Davidians were to be arrested, or what items were to be searched for. These details did not seem of much interest to them, and they were unprepared for such questions. As one team-leader, Agent Kenny King, testified, his team's orders were to scale his ladder and smash into the building, and his orders had never called for any announcement of identity or purpose, or allowed any discretion or change, whatever happened elsewhere -- "even if the Davidians had all greeted the agents outside, with their hands up and a big sign reading, 'Welcome ATF'."

In order to implicate three defendants in having said they shot agents, the prosecutors put on the videotaped deposition of Davidian Marjorie Thomas, who had been given immunity from prosecution. She nevertheless repeatedly told U.S. Attorney Ray Jahn that there was no conspiracy to kill agents. At Jahn's question as to what would have happened had the agents just come to the door and walked in, she said, "We wouldn't do anything." This seems to have been a case of the prosecutor's asking his own witness a few too many questions.

When Kathy Schroeder took the stand, as the government's long anticipated "star witness," her obvious continued affection for the defendants, and her statement that "our conspiracy was only to defend ourselves when attacked" did little to help the prosecution's case.

After the prosecution rested and the jury was sent out, the defense again requested that it be permitted to try to establish self-defense.

The defendant's motion was again denied.

This left defense counsel with few witnesses and little evidence of their own. The defense first put on part of a tape of the 911 phone call made by Davidian Wayne Martin during the first few minutes of the ATF attack. He frantically reported that ATF agents were shooting at men, women, and children, and pleaded, "Call it off!" Several other desperate 911 calls were placed from Mt. Carmel, but Judge Smith ruled that "90 per cent" of the taped pleas were "irrelevant" and inadmissible.

Retired Colonel and Vietnam veteran Jack Zimmerman, now a lawyer, had been at Mt. Carmel for a time during the siege, to represent some of the Davidians, and had entered and examined the building on two occasions. He testified as to bullet-holes in the highest part of the roof, coming into the building. He added that they could not have been fired from the water tower or from anywhere but the sky, contrary to the testimony of helicopter pilots who had, during the government's case, denied any firing at all (but could not satisfactorily explain why the helicopters were each carrying "eight or ten" ATF agents each throughout their mission over Mt. Carmel).

Col. Zimmerman also explained to the jury that it was not "teargas" which was used in the FBI attack, but CS gas, a mucous, tissue, and lung agent with far more serious an lasting effects, and outlawed for use in combat.

The prosecution attempted to portray Col. Zimmerman as an ardent admirer of the Davidians' religious beliefs, which he denied. After repeated forays, the prosecutor demanded to know what his religion was. Zimmerman answered that he was Jewish, and that his spoken defense of the Davidians' faith was at the invitation of his synagogue.

Col. Zimmerman's testimony might have caused the jurors to notice, if they hadn't before, the wide diversity among the defendants. Anglo-Saxon males, blacks, Mexican-Americans, an Italian American, British subjects, Australian citizens, a woman, elderly people and young people. Mt. Carmel was apparently a multiculturalist's dream, with all races, nationalities, and ages living in harmony. Of course, they were religious and owned guns, which made them a PC nightmare, instead. Although the press had listened quietly and almost reverentially to the prosecution's witnesses, the defense witnesses were drowned out by boos, hoots, and derisive laughter. The large room took on the appearance of an ill-natured high school pep-rally, with applause reserved for the judge whenever he sustained a prosecutor's objection.

There were, to be sure, a few reporters whose sympathies were with the defense. Rod Norberg, representing an obscure constitutionalist publication, was quietly ordered out of the courtroom, handcuffed in the hall, and taken to jail on a traffic warrant for a ticket which was on appeal, the only instance of such a warrant provoking a manhunt in San Antonio. A local lady from the Libertarian Party was removed from the courtroom and ordered never to return due to alleged "sleepiness." Apparently strict coat-and-tie rules among spectators did not keep out all the riff-raff.

Then the defense attorneys rested after only a day and a half of presenting their case. Both sides closed.

The major surprise was that in his 60-page charge to the jury Judge Smith finally permitted the defendants to argue self- defense, now that it was too late to present witnesses or evidence, or to cross-examine or re-call prosecution witnesses. The consensus of the rumor mill was that the judge was, at the tail-end of the trial, persuaded of the defendants' innocence. U.S. Attorney Bill Johnston spent his two hours in what could most charitably be described as avoiding mention of any evidence whatsoever. He alternated between calling the defendants and all Davidians "cowards" and "snivelling cowards," even when describing deeds that, if done by people of whom he approved, would have been recognized at once as heroic.

Johnston's greatest fury was reserved for the defense attorneys, some of whom were court-appointed, none of whom had been paid, and some of whom were supporting defendants and their families by supplying their clothing and upkeep -- including housing them in their own homes -- as "hyenas."

Perhaps this last epithet was his worst mistake, because the defense attorneys, each in turn, came forward with some of the angriest (yet well-reasoned and spoken) closing arguments on record. Most referred to the U.S. attorney's "hyenas" remark, responding in a variations of "We have to consider the source." Rocket Rosen patiently recounted each witness and piece of evidence, on each charge, concluding that none proved the charges, and most proved self-defense from a government agency dangerously out of control. "A conspiracy to defend oneself from unlawful attack is not a criminal conspiracy."

Mike DeGuerin gave a rousing patriotic speech centered on the idea that this trial was about "respect," and whether the federal government still had any for individual rights, the American people, or the U.S. Constitution.

Dan Cogdell gave the most memorable closing arguments, with his Amarillo English and down-home phrases. Were the Davidians "cowards"? Looking down the barrel of a hostile tank "would scare the gorilla snot" out of anyone. He reminded the jury that the Davidians were attacked in their home and their church, not a "compound."

He also contrasted the methods of the federal ATF and the Texas Rangers with the famed remark by one of the latter when he arrived alone to quell a massive disturbance: "One riot, one Ranger".

As his finale, Cogdell listed each of the euphemisms used by the prosecution. They were not ATF concussion grenades, but "diversionary devices", not tank-tracks but "ground disturbances;" not ATF snipers, but "forward observers;" not tanks but "armored mobile units;" not an attack, but a "dynamic entry;" not the bloodiest assault on American civilians in history, but the "execution of a warrant."

The prosecution's final two-hour close would have been an anticlimax but for a disastrous mistake by U.S. Attorney Ray Jahn, when, trying again to lessen the importance to the jury of the concussion grenades, he implied that the defense witness who had her arm blown off by one was faking the seriousness of the injury, adding that she could still hold the microphone in the courtroom. From that point the jury refused to look in his direction.

After only 18 hours of deliberations (including the several hours necessary to study the judge's charge to the jury), following a six-week trial, the jury came back with "not guilty" verdicts for all 11 defendants on the murder and conspiracy to murder charges, convictions of five defendants for voluntary manslaughter, a few convictions for using firearms in the commission of a violent crime (which convictions were dismissed by the judge because those defendants had not been found guilty of any violent crimes) and seven weapons possession convictions.

One juror stated to the San Antonio Express-News, "When we heard all that testimony, there was no way we could find them guilty of murder." He added that "We felt provocation was pretty evident. When the firestorm started, everybody was trying to cover their behinds...I thought two agents in plain clothes should have gone in there and knocked on the door (to issue warrants)".

Long after the verdict, the national media were still referring to the government's "bungled attempt to serve a warrant." If anything at all was proven during this trial, and proven beyond a reasonable or unreasonable doubt, it is that there was no attempt to serve a warrant. There was a thoroughly planned and rehearsed military assault and campaign against a group of civilians, some of whom were suspected of secretly possessing illegal weapons parts, which campaign was efficient enough to rack up a kill-ratio which would be envied by any army in history.

http://www.constitution.org/waco/ertausch.htm

There is no doubt, that koresh shared some responsibility for what happened.

Turning a blind eye to the facts of the matter because there were some icky guns involved, however, isn't in anyones best interests.


Some of us see a government that overreached, did wrong, lied, and covered up the facts involved. And they did. All of those things.

Others, like you, just see icky guns, and some people that had them.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. hahahahaha
source? You mean that right-wing crap link you provided? Mine came right from the FBI files and court records. Feel free to look it all up. When you spew your bullshit lies about not being convicted why don't you tell the truth and say the charged were reduced, not dropped? Why lie? You know why they were reduced, tell the truth. They were reduced becuase they could not put the illegal guns in the hands on the compound members.

Now to the biggest question of all, why didn't they let them in if they were not breaking the law? Why not let justice work instead of causing the standoff in the first place? Come on genius tell us, why not open the door if everything you have is legal?

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #68
78. Armed men storm your home, do not identify themselves and have no warrant...
but one should just "let them in"?

Sorry, not how we do it in America. 4th Amendment. Police states are over there ==>.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. It's " up there " for us
They can do that in Indiana .
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #68
93. OH...
Edited on Mon May-16-11 10:32 AM by beevul
Penthouse magazine and wikipedia are right wing now?

"Now to the biggest question of all, why didn't they let them in if they were not breaking the law?"

Because ATF came to the door shooting. Not with a warrant.

An ATF agent TOLD texas rangers as much, then changed his story in court. You'd know that if you had bothered to read.

You obviously didnt read ANYTHING I posted.


Whos the "genius" now, eh?


You know, I can understand you being ignorant of the facts involved.

What I can't fathom, is why you cling to that ignorance so much like the child that needs a woobie.


Is it because there were guns involved?


Tell you what:

Read and learn about what actually happened, then get back to me about it, "genius".


I bet you bought the official story about WMDs being in Iraq too didn't you...Oh wait nevermind...that didnt have anything to do with guns...
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
112. That which has claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Not all of us get government documents at work. How about a link for those of us who don't have a GS grade?
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #56
63. So the children deserved to die...
The people in the compound at Waco murdered everyone in the compound when they refused to answer the door. They chose their own fate.

...because their parents wouldn't surrender?

You must have loved the Iraq embargo.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. their
parents and every adult in that compound killed them.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. I'm sure thats what was going through their minds...
I'm sure thats what was going through their minds as they were dieing of cyanide poisoning.


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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. not my problem
they caused the whole thing, the outcome was their choice.
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. No, not your problem..
...unless you were to one day find yourself afoul of the law. If they knocked on your door and you didn't come out, should they be able to burn your house down with your children in it?
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. see you finally understand
DON'T FIND YOURSELF AFOUL OF THE LAW, LOL. If you're innocent open the fucking door, it's that simple.
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #74
128. Yes, I understand.
DON'T FIND YOURSELF AFOUL OF THE LAW, LOL. If you're innocent open the fucking door, it's that simple.

You're in favor of a police state. It's that simple.
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. So do you also believe...
...that Saddam Hussein killed every Iraqi child that died for lack of food and/or medicine?
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. Was he at Waco?
wrong thread stawman LOL.
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. No, but it's the same logic.
You're justifying the deaths of the children because of the crimes of their parents. It's the right thread, and there's nothing funny about it.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. dude!
their parents killed them!!
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #75
82. It was "Appropriations Theater Gone Wrong "
Have you heard ? They got caught doing it again .
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #82
94. Operation: "Showtime" N/T
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #94
100. Had you heard ?
They fucked it up and got caught again .
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #100
107. "fast and furious"ly...
"fast and furious"ly allowing guns to walk into Mexico.

You'd think, with all the screams about how mom and pop gun stores fuel Mexican drug war violence...that if Mexican drug violence were REALLY important to those that screamed so much about it...the "screamers" would condemn such things.


And yet...


All we hear is magnitudes of silence an the occasional denial.


Telling, methinks, in more ways than one.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #107
111. They have received some ..."recent criticisms"
So , have they indicted , or perhaps even temporarily suspended the licenses of the illegal crime gun running gun shops that they nabbed to much celebratory fanfare over the last few months ?
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #75
126. Dude!
The government acted with reckless disregard for the lives of these children. Apparently that's OK with you because their parents were criminals.
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #71
90. But it was only a bunch of little RW kids they deserved to die!!
:sarcasm: (really shouldn't need to use this but...
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. You do know that the feds entrapped Weaver right?
I guess his being an armed racist ( you are 100% correct on that one) justified shooting his 14 YO son in the back and his wife in the head ( although she was armed w/ an evil assault baby)
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. The SOB had plenty of opportunity to come out -- instead he holed up in his racist compound.

He was a gun criminal -- that's pretty bad in my book. I guess it's OK with you.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. So in your opinion that makes it okay..
Edited on Sun May-15-11 10:31 PM by Upton
for the feds to shoot 14 year old Sammy Weaver in the back and to gun down Vicki Weaver while she was holding a baby. That's some sick thinking on your part...why am I not surprised?

Edit: Btw, the federal government, in order to avoid a civil suit, settled out of court and awarded Randy Weaver and his daughters over 3 million dollars. Looks like they knew they were in the wrong...even if you don't..
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Sorry -- but gun criminals and racists are essentially terrorists.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Dodge.
How do you feel about government agents shooting kids in the back, and mothers in the face?
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Daddy should have come out and not had agents on pins-and-needles. Blame the gun criminal dude.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Do you approve of government agents shooting kids in the back?
I guess it was the kids' fault for having the wrong dad, huh?

Do you approve of government agents shooting a mother in the face, while she holds her infant?

I suppose she probably should have stayed indoors, right?

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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Since nice ole Sammy -- apparently a chip of the ole block -- fired first, I'd say too bad.

If daddy hadn't been a racist gun criminal, none of that would have happened. Weaver had a chance to come out of his racist compound after he tried to sell guns to the Aryan Nation. I think it's dad's fault and I'm starting to wonder about some of the pro-gunners here.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Except he didn't fire first.
"Since nice ole Sammy -- apparently a chip of the ole block -- fired first, I'd say too bad."


Except he didn't fire first.

He fired at then unidentified men who'd just shot his dog - on HIS property, hoyt.


"Weaver had a chance to come out of his racist compound after he tried to sell guns to the Aryan Nation."

Except he never tried to sell guns to the aryan nation. And now his cabin was a "racist compound"? Good grief hoyt.

"I think it's dad's fault and I'm starting to wonder about some of the pro-gunners here."

I doubt it, I don't think you are "thinking" at all.


Thinking (in any meaningful sense of the word) would require actually being able to analyze the relevent facts of the matter, and you haven't demonstrated any willingness or ability to do so.







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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. That poster has not been honest since his first post in the "gungeon".
I said I would no longer engage him, but had to ask the above two questions for the record.

It is well known that vileness does not exist only on the right of politics, and we have proof before us.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. This is true, and well known.
I'm still in favor of shining light on it whenever possible, however.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #48
76. Another falsehood
""Stop! U.S. Marshal," Degan yelled out to them. Cooper then stood up from his position and repeated the phrase, however before he could get all the words out of his mouth, Kevin Harris wheeled around and fired at Degan with a 30.06 rifle. Cooper looked over and saw Degan fall back, realizing that his comrade had just been shot."


First shot was fired by Weaver's friend, Kevin Harris. The dog shooting came later. Have you even looked into this event or do you just wish it happened the way you dreamed it? http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/11.html

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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #76
89. Accounts differ ...

Ruby Ridge

***snip***


Accounts differ at this point as to who first opened fire<36> but agree that DUSM Roderick shot and killed Weaver's dog and that Samuel Weaver fired at Roderick. Samuel Weaver was shot in the back while retreating,<37> and DUSM Degan was shot and killed by Harris.<38>

The version of the firefight told by DUSMs Roderick and Cooper was that the dog, followed by Harris then Sammy, came out of the woods. DUSM Degan challenged Harris, who turned and shot Degan dead without Degan firing a single shot. Roderick then shot the dog once, Sammy fired at Roderick twice, and Roderick fired once again. Roderick and Cooper heard multiple gunshots from the Weaver party. Cooper fired two three-shot bursts at Harris and Cooper saw Harris fall "like a sack of potatoes". An impact caused leaves to fly up in front of Cooper who then sought cover. Cooper saw Sammy run away. Cooper radioed to OP team Dave Hunt that he had wounded or killed Harris.<39>

Harris' version was that, when the dog followed by Sammy then Harris came out of the woods, the dog ran up to Cooper and danced about as he did in playing with the children. The dog then ran to Roderick, who shot the dog in front of Sammy, who cursed Roderick and shot at him. Degan came out of the woods firing his M16 and hit Sammy in the arm. Harris then fired and hit Degan in the chest knocking him down. Cooper fired at Harris who ducked for cover. Cooper fired again and Sammy was hit in the back and fell. Harris fired about 6 feet in front of Cooper and forced him to take cover. Cooper announced that he was a US Marshal. Harris checked Sammy's body, found him dead, and ran to the cabin.<40>

***snip***

In testimony about the firefight at the 1993 trial, Larry Cooper admitted "You have all these things compressed into a few seconds.... It's difficult to remember what went on first." The ballistics experts called by the prosecution testified on cross examination by defense that the physical evidence did not contradict either the prosecution or defense theories on the firefight (trial testimony, Martin Fackler on June 8, 1993 and Lucien "Luke" Haag on June 10, 1993). Fackler testified that Roderick shot and killed the dog, Degan shot Sammy through the right elbow, Harris shot and killed Degan, and Cooper "probably" shot and killed Sammy. The 1993 trial jury accepted the defense theory of the firefight and acquitted Harris on grounds of self-defense.emphasis added In 1997 Boundary County Sheriff Greg Sprungl conducted an independent search of the "Y" and Lucien Haag confirmed that a bullet found in that search matched Cooper's gun and contained fibers that matched Sammy Weaver's shirt.<41>)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #76
96. Mmmhmm...
Trutv...now theres a source for factual information. Not.

Weaver was stitched diagonally from the shoulder down across the torso, by a machinegun - shot in the BACK in fact.

LOL the dog shooting came later...Mkay.

It had nothing to do with the fact that they shot the dog because it gave away their position...no...not at all. :eyes:
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #45
92. Would you have "come out w/ your hands up"
and surrender to a bunch of people that had just murdered your son or your wife?

I'm sure in Weaver's mind he might as well have put a gun to his own head.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #92
121. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Let me get this straight..
So since Weaver didn't come out..it's just peachy keen with you if the government kills his wife and son? Is that your position?..And no more dodging... simple yes or no will suffice..
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Nope, my position is that Weaver's son acted like his dad brought him up -- a racist thug.

You guys are scared to death of thugs -- ain't that why you carry everywhere you go. Or is it something more?
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. You still didn't answer the question..
and Weaver's politics are irrelevant..though speaking of politics, why do I get the impression that if this had been a Republican administration pulling this BS on a bunch of communists, you'd be outraged?
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. And, oddly, I don't recall any reports of Weaver being a "thug".
Projection, it's what some folks have for breakfast.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Imo, Ruby Ridge is one of the mosty shameful incidents
in this country's history..certainly in all the time I've been alive. And this particular poster tries to justify it by calling Weaver a "racist thug"....I don't care about Weaver's views, this transcends politics, there's absolutely no justification for killing his wife and son....and then the anti's wonder why we don't trust them and the government..
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. They don't wonder why.
Edited on Sun May-15-11 11:38 PM by beevul
"the anti's wonder why we don't trust them and the government"

They don't wonder why. They KNOW exactly why.

Their attempts to rewrite facts and recorded history in an attempt to marginalize those that bother paying any attention to it, and might say something to that effect...

Well, they absolutely telegraph that fact, in doing so.

Both ruby ridge and waco were absolutely shameful on the part of government.


And, in general, something that speaks volumes about who supports civil rights, and who doesn't:

Those that truly support civil rights - support them for even the most vile among us.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. "Those that truly support civil rights - support them for even the most vile among us"
Edited on Mon May-16-11 12:26 AM by Upton
Exactly.

You now, after all these years, Waco and Ruby Ridge still anger me...Particularly when you have so called progressives defending what I consider to be the murder of innocent women and children..
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
91. It's OK to shoot kids in the back
As long as they're Freeper kids.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #91
108. And if they're "gun lovers" N/T
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. ESPECIALLY if they're gun lovers NT
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. Pretty risky business
Attaching pedophile meth-cook makes it a slam dunk .
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
73. really?
Entrapped means encouraged now? He never was forced to sell the shotguns now was he?

"in 1989 that Randy met a tall, heavy-set biker named Guss Magisono. Randy explained to Guss that he had been having a difficult time making ends meet for the past few months, so Guss offered Randy money in exchange for illegal sawed-off shotguns. Randy was reluctant about the deal and only relented after Guss continued to badger him about how much he could earn, promising him that the guns would be sold to inner-city gang members — the plan supposedly being that the black gang members would kill themselves off. Following the Aryan Nation meeting, Randy agreed to meet Guss a few weeks later with two sawed-off shotguns in exchange for $300.00."

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/6.html

Ole Randy was an innocent pawn whose only desire was to see black kids kill each other with his sawed-off shot guns. What a little angel he was.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #73
79. Agree completely. I don't think most of his supporters (and those like him) care about the truth.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #73
81. And what of Sammy and Vicki Weaver?
Are you another who believes it was okay for the feds to kill them (Sammy shot in the back, Vicki while she held her infant son) just because you don't like the way Randy chose to live his life?
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #81
97. Minor correction
Sammy shot in the back, Vicki while she held her infant son

Infant daughter Elisheba Weaver
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. Thanks..
actually it's a miracle Elisheba wasn't hit. Of course, even she had been killed, the government apologists would be grubbing around for some sort of reason as to why she deserved it..
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #101
102. Why she deserved it..
She was just a baby Freeper isn't that reason enough? ( C'mon I really need this? :sarcasm:)
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #73
113. The defense of Operations Gunwalker and Fast and Furious is now 'inoperative'
...to use the immortal words of another government spokesperson.


Don't worry, I'm sure you'll still get a good evaluation next time around -

unless some Congresscritter finds who you are and starts enquiring as to whether your posts here are at the behest

of your superiors. You are, of course, aware that Congress can issue subpoenas, amirite?
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #73
119. Entrapment does not mean the government forces some one to commit a crime.
Entrapment means that the government is the one the brings up the idea and tempts the individual.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
52. 25 dead children can't defend themselves against your drivel.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
104. I have a feeling that if it were the DEA instead of ATF
and all of the other facts were exactly the same, you would be defending Koresh and Weaver.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
85. Koresh killed his followers - not the ATF
Koresh apologist fail

yup
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. OK children,
This is a perfect example of why you should NEVER smoke crack or meth.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. We may argue about the laws, but most gun folks agree that if you break the law, you pay the price.


At least the gun folks I know here and elsewhere.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. You obviously aren't reading the posts.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Sigh...yes I am. As much as you wish to malign pro-rkba Democrats we are not who you think.


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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Weren't you the one who tried to claim something along the lines of:
"All these pro-gun people are saying X, even though they never use those words", essentially giving you carte-blanche to attribute whatever belief you wanted to pro-gun people without having to back up said claims with quotes?
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Yes, most of the "in public" pro-gunners, are pretty much saying the same BS. Exactly.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #36
83. Right so you're entire argument is based on people believing things
that you have ascribed to them and they never once state themselves?

You do realize how that makes any rational/sane debate impossible?
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
106. Their history has never been good
from the bad old days as the Prohibition Bureau, where Elliot Ness and Al Copone's brother were among the very few that were not on the take. To the 1980s, with their various civil rights abuses, to today with GunWalker and their internal problems like rampant sexual harassment, racism, and other hostile work place issues.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. Lets not forget the "Good Ol' Boys Roundup"
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
14. The ATF caught this and not the Military? WTF???
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. "Former" is an important word
It means "Not in the Army anymore" which is probably why the Army had nothing to do w/ it.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. "According to court records, Waldman was a soldier in the U.S. Army at the time..."
Read the article more carefully.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. so I guess it is ATF-1; CID-0?
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
20.  I have a problem with this.............
"Eric D. Waldman, a former infantryman with Company A, 1st Battalion, 506th Infantry, pleaded guilty to 3 three counts of a federal indictment on Sept. 14, 2011, according to U.S. Attorney David J. Hale. He says Waldman was sentenced on May 12, 2011."

He plead guilty four months after he was sentenced?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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russ1943 Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Hard to keep up with them.
10/28/10 Martin Ramirez-Rodriguez, 27, Santiago Valdez-Gomez, 25, Florencio Barrios-Hernandez, 26 all of Mexico, and Maria Cifuentes-Espinoza, 35, of Texas were sentenced to prison yesterday afternoon by United States District Judge Richard Smoak for their involvement in a multi-national drug and gun-trafficking operation, announced United States Attorney Pamela C. Marsh, Northern District of Florida………
Martin Ramirez-Rodriguez was sentenced to 572 months’ imprisonment. He was charged with and convicted of conspiracy to export fully automatic AK-47 machine guns from the U.S. to Mexico……………..
During the course of the conspiracy, members of the conspiracy also endeavored to obtain and smuggle to Mexico as many as 800 fully automatic AK-47 machine guns. http://www.panhandleparade.com/index.php/mbb/article/four_sentenced_in_multi-national_drug_and_gun-trafficking_ring/mbb7726439/


Report: SEAL charged with gun smuggling LAS VEGAS, Nov. 4 (UPI) -- A U.S. Navy SEAL and two others were arrested for allegedly selling smuggled machine guns to undercover agents, court papers filed in Las Vegas said Thursday. The defendants were identified by KLAS as Andrew Kauffman of Las Vegas, Richard Paul of Durango, Colo., and Nicholas Bickle of San Diego. http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/11/04/Report-SEAL-charged-with-gun-smuggling/UPI-64491288892805/


Nov 10, 2010 An Army National Guard soldier from northwestern Pennsylvania will spend two years on probation and must forfeit 11 guns, including an AK-47, that he lied about smuggling into the country after serving in Iraq. James Bindeman, 42, was sentenced Tuesday after pleading guilty before a federal judge in Erie in June. http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/regional/s_708549.html


Adam Gitschlag, who served in Iraq and was once based at Camp Pendleton, was arrested at his Orange County home Nov. 2 On Monday, ATF agents arrested Jose Smith Pacheco, 31, of Montebello, and Miguel A. Ortiz, 49, of Northridge, both former Marines. Also arrested were Edwin Cano, 33, of Northridge and Christopher John Thomas, 32, of Van Nuys. The three suspects allegedly sold 18 AK-47s and 14 other firearms to undercover ATF agents. The Russian-designed AK-47 can fetch a high price on the illicit market, officials said. The weapons were smuggled into the U.S. from Iraq and Afghanistan by U.S. military personnel, according to federal documents.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/10/MNBI1G9LFH.DTL
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-marines-guns-20101110,0,5853363.story
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. I gotta question that first one.
The link doesn't seem to work, but I have to wonder where/how they were getting full-auto AK-47's in the U.S. in quantities and at a price that would make it worth shipping them to Mexico. Those things run about $5-10K+ here on the legal market...
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russ1943 Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
120. cached link
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. "800 fully automatic AK-47 machine guns" from Panama City to Mexico?
No offense, but I'd bet a months salary that the reporter is an ignoramous before I belive what he wrote. I just don't see getting 800 full-auto AK-47's into the U.S., then back out again.

And there really isn't enough info in the article to verify the claim. We know that reporters get this confused pretty regularly, either through ignorance or mal-intent.

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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #124
125. But it's such an easy sell
Kinda like ethanol aint it ?
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
30. And if they would stick to this sort of thing
rather than running guns to Mexican cartels I wouldn't have an issue with them.

No doubt corrupt cops catch drunk drivers from time to time and save lives.

That doesn't negate the corruption.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
62. YUP, all of those easily converted full auto weapons
Edited on Mon May-16-11 01:28 AM by rl6214
being sold at gun shows across the south. And your heros the ATF, as long as you don't have to admit that they are complicent in running guns to mexico.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
122. 12.... months?
Months? MONTHS????



:banghead:




Should be years, not months!!!
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