DU et al in Defense of Hunting on National Wildlife Refuges

[Superfly]

Personally, I've hunted on wildlife refuges for ducks, deer, and other game. Most of the time, these wildife refuges are open only certain days of the season.

Hunters are a viable means of controlling animal populations (for purposes of ecosystem depradation prevention, etc.) when natural predators are absent, so wildlife refuges should continue to be opened to hunting, at least during certain times of the respective seasons.

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Link

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Ducks Unlimited (DU) continues to work toward the preservation of recreational hunting as a compatible use of National Wildlife Refuges. The Fund for Animals (Plaintiff) filed a lawsuit against the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Defendant) on March 13, 2003 and continues to seek elimination of hunting opportunities on 39 wildlife refuges located throughout the United States. DU and several other conservation-sportsmen organizations remain steadfast in opposition to the lawsuit. The groups are official "intervenors" in the case and have offered support to the government's case.

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[waylon]

1. Check out this nonsense

"Hunters and trappers, who represent fewer than 5% of Americans, already have access to millions of acres of public and private lands outside of the refuge system for their activities. In fact, national wildlife refuges comprise just 5% of all lands available to hunters. Hikers, bird watchers, campers, and photographers are entitled to enjoy at least 5% of public land free from the dangers of stray bullets or from witnessing the maiming of wildlife."


Dangers of stray bullets? Witnessing the maiming of wildlife? I have yet to see any "birdwatchers" tromping through the snow in January to commune with nature. Duck season and "granola season" are at least a few months apart, in my neck of the woods anyway.

I would give their effort more credit if they didnt use this type of emotional blackmail.

[alwynsw]

2. It's becoming necessary to open up more refuge areas and parks

to hunting. On the state level, Kentucky has begun opening some of the state parks to limited hunting. The need becomes clear when one does as my wife and I have. We've never counted fewer than 40+ deer along the less than one mile long roadway entering Taylorsville Lake State Park just south of Louisville.

Ft. Knox also welcomes deer hunters. The training schedules are modified during season to accomodate deer hunters. The population on Ft. Knox is so overcrowded that ther are daily (no exaggeration) deer - auto collisions.

Hunting can be an effective management tool. It appears that it's the best we have at the moment. The pleasures of a hunt, successful or not, are an added bonus.

[Superfly]

3. One trend I've seen in the past 10 years

is landowners denying hunters access to their land, when access was freely given before.

Hunting clubs and groups have purchased exclusive hunting rights to private grounds for a lot of money of the past few years, and I think that land owners are starting to realize that they can make a few more dollars granting hunting privleges to paying clubs rather than the individual hunter.

[waylon]

4. Yep, and Im a bit irritated

You cant hardly hunt without taking along a lawyer and a surveyor these days. Unfortunately, most land owners up here are also hunters and they practically "own" herds of deer and elk. You dont ever hear "stories" from those folks, you just see the smiles on their faces.

[alwynsw]

5. I'm one of the lucky one, I guess

Ain't country life grand? I do allow hunters on our land. I do strictly "regulate" how many at a time and where they hunt for safety.

About 10 years ago I got fed up with a trespassing hunter with an ATV. how tough is it to rescue a Gator that has about 200' of logging chain and half a dozen padlocks restraining it? Dumbass went to sleep in his portable blind.

I called the sheriff. Still got the gator.

[Superfly]

6. I went to school in E Washington State

where the pheasant population is still very healthy. I would go out in the morinings, by myself and ask permission to hunt peoples's lands. I would leave my shotgun at the fence (never walk up to somebody's door with a gun), and kindly ask permission.

75% of the time, they would be glad to let me hunt their lands. Sometimes, I would be allowed to hunt their lands, if I took their pointing dogs "for a walk". Sometimes, they would let me hunt after enjoying a cup of coffee and listening to their stories of their hunting youth.

That was then. Now, my success rate in getting permission to hunt private land is around 0%. Then again, I live in VA, now.

[alwynsw]

7. You still get the neighbor attitude in many western areas.

Sadly, it's dying all over because of jerks and club money. I'm sure those aren't the only reasons, but they're right at the top of the list.

[Superfly]

8. I bet it's the former...

The same is going for fishing now, too. People are starting to be real jerks if you ask them to walk across their property to get to a stream or river.

I get anything from "I don't want you wading in my river" (Which is counter to the 'rights of way' laws) to "Get lost". Fly fishing is my meditation, and nothing ruins a good vibe more than running into some jerk like them.

[waylon]

9. I told Batman to get lost.......

Michael Keaton is a big fly fisherman, he's up in this area frequently. We own a home on the Henry's Fork (summer home for my mom actually). I was sitting in the shade one afternoon when a sport ute pulls up. I was sitting about 30 feet away so I couldnt see who it was. He asked if he could wade in from our boat ramp and I said no, reflexively. (Unfortunately, we have to say no or word spreads fast among the locals and pretty soon our hay field looks like a parking lot)

Visibly aggravated but still curious, he asked about the hatch and how Id been doing. I started walking towards his outfit to talk with him when I recognized who it was. I said Mike? Michael Keaton? He was clearly irritated that I told him no so it didnt go much beyond that aside from telling him to drive up the road a bit and good luck.

My one chance to vainly associate myself with stardom, and I blow it! Anyway, thats my story of how I pissed off Batman!

[Superfly]

10. If you ever see a guy with a

red Jeep Cherokee pull up to your door, please let him walk across your property....

I've always wanted to fish the Henry's Fork. I've fished all over N Idaho, but never in the south.

[waylon]

12. Sorry, its closed... no tresspassing....

No Hunting, No Fishing, No Fuckin Around!

Heheheee, it promises to be a good year. Snow pack is up this year from the last 3. Not out of the drought yet but getting there. Early June is stone fly time, fantastic fishing.

I just happen to have a drift boat and reasonable knowledge of our stretch. We are south of Island Park (thank god) about 30 miles.

I am the keeper of the cooler and master of the oars!

[Superfly]

13. What kind of boat?

Clakacraft?

Most of my fishing has been done via wading, so you are really limited by the type of water you can cast a fly to.

My favorites are:
Kelly Creek (N of Orofino)
N Fork of the Clearwater
Selway
Lochsa
Rock Creek (E of Missoula)
Yakima
and Bull Shoals (AR)

[waylon]

14. Its an Alumaweld.....

Its not as spiffy as the fiberglass boats but, damn its durable. The henrys fork can be a killer on purty fiberglass, especially when you have to pull over and pee every half hour or tye knots for the dexterity challenged!

Good thing about this stretch is that most of is wadeable... if you can make a reasonable cast.

We fish the north fork (henrys), south fork, teton, and various creeks. Its a damn shame Ive lived here this long and havent fished the Madison, yellowstone, gallatin and a few others but, 4 kids and a wife = too much work and not enough time. Still waiting to go after steelhead but that tends to conflict with hunting season.

[Superfly]

15. I fish the salt now, so casting

big flies long distances is really not a problem. When I was stationed at Ft Lewis, people fishing for steelies used Spey techniques, which is a very cool way to fish...

[waylon]

16. I saw that spey thing...looks like it would wear out your back quickly!

Fishing Scotland or one of those shows, on the river spey i think. It would be a handy rod to have, if you could use it.

I lived in san diego for a while, never did get into the saltwater deal. Im a dry fly zealot. Although bonefish and snook look like a hell of a good time. Warm, shallow water and feisty fish, how can you beat that?

[Superfly]

17. You can't beat it, unless you are talking about

Westslope Cutts in Northern Idaho...

Spey casting is basically just an extended roll cast. I hear that once you know the 2 basic casts, it's really an efficient way to fly fish.

I know what you mean about fishing dries, tho. Nothing beats the rise of a trout for excitement. Only flushing pheasant or chuckers can come close...

[waylon]

18. Yellowstone cutts!

Shamefully, i can only claim one! The north fork is predominantly rainbows. Still a few cuts left but they tend to be more active in the late summer months when Im fished out and pouting about the one (and I mean only 1) that got away :)

Just got my wife into pine hens (forest grouse, or ruffed grouse.. i think they are the same) She wants a shotgun now! What the hell have i done lol

[Superfly]

19. Oh, yeah..I forgot about them...

besides turkeys, grouse hunting is the absolute hardest kind of hunting there is, IMO. It seems that when they flush, they always put a tree between you and them, never giving you a chance to draw a bead...

[alwynsw]

11. You get them (jerks) on both sides of the equation

We have an ongoing battle around here with the "city" folks that want to live in the country. It works like this:

Some farmer dies or retires and his farm ends up sold to a developer. The developer subdivides it into 1 acre or larger lots and invites the loonies to live "out in the country". They move out from Louisville in droves, figuring the hour commute is worth the lack of crime and the fresh air.

Some stunts the transplants pull:

1) They start petitioning county government to do something about "that awful smell". That smell is money. The money being made from the foodstuff farmers grow - hogs, cattle, etc. or the fertilizers for crops, a great deal of which is manure from the livestock.

2) They buy the kids ATV's and turn 'em loose. Fences down, cattle loose, livestock chased for sport.

3) They call the sheriff during hunting season and complain about the noise early in the morning. IT actually goes on all year because of varmint control, but it picks up during season.

4) One group even went so far as to tear down a barbed wire property line fence because they thought it was ugly. They still don't understand why they have to pay for the cattle that got out and got killed. The same group went to court to block replacement of the fence with barbed wire. They wanted something attractive. (Judge said OK. They got a white rail fence with an electric fence attached on the pasture side. All, including upkeep and RECC bill, at their expense. State law says that property line fence costs are shared by both parties equally unless a judge orders otherwise.)

5) Did I mention the chicken coop raid pulled off by the transplants? (We know it was them because they got caught.) They thought it was a hoot - at first. They raided a commercial growers houses - two of them. It stopped being funny when they had to compensate the grower for 52,000 birds and cleaning the houses. Their little intrusion caused the USDA to refuse the birds in both houses because of possible contamination. In other words, about 250,000 pounds of processed meat, 25,000 pounds of pet food meal, and 100,000 pounds of injectible fertilizer down the tubes for a "free" chicken dinner.

So. You get jerks on both sides. Some are natural jerks, some are jerks because they're idiots, and some a forced to be jerks. It stinks all the way around.

[MrSandman]

20. This was tried once...

"In 1906, President Theodore Roosevelt established the Grand Canyon National Game Preserve on the Kaibab Plateau. His intention was to protect the mule deer from overhunting by humans and predation by natural enemies. He knew that human activities had depleted wildlife species throughout the country, and only a few locations in the West still contained the numbers that had flourished a few decades earlier. Roosevelt hoped that future generations of wildlife enthusiasts would be able to visit the Kaibab Plateau to witness an abundance of wildlife not remaining elsewhere."
http://websites.aero.net/cyoung/research/kaibab/story1.html

Does the Find for Animals wish to repeat this?

[alwynsw]

21. I got my biggest mulie ever on the Kaibab

Field dressed out at about 360 lbs. ( a little over half, maybe 2/3, the state record as I recall. Something near 700 lbs. sticks in my mind. Will Google.) Good thing there were 2 of us there to drag him out.

[MrSandman]

22. Never been hunting in the Rockies,

But have backpacked the Cascades and Sangre de Cristos. Thought I was following a huge deer once...first elk I had ever seen.

[alwynsw]

23. There are a few old mulies that could pass for elk out there

Some of 'em do get rather large.

[skippythwndrdog]

24. It's not just the refuges that have problems.

Google the deer population explosion around Cuyhoga County (Cleveland area), OH.

White tails roam very much like cottontails. That's why they end up at the backyard barbecues in suburbs as guests or pests instead of on the grill.

[RebelOne]

25. It's ironic that hunting should be allowed on refuges.

According to the dictionary's definition of refuge: 1. Protection or shelter, as from danger 2. A place providing protection or shelter; haven. 3. Something which one may turn for help. So the animals cannot even escape from the hunters on refuges.

[Superfly]

26. Do you honestly think

that animals, when in the absence of natural predation, would NOT destroy a wildlife refuge due to overpopulation and/or depradation?

That is why wildlife refuges must be opened to hunting, and most of them are.

[MrSandman]

27. Check the link on post #20

ed fer spellun