GUNS IN THE NEWS - February 13, 2004 (Revised Guideline #6)

[CO Liberal]

To eliminate any confusion, guideline #6 has been refined. Please use this thread for Friday's stories - Wayne

* * * * *

Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:

1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. On Mondays (since many people do not log in to DU over the weekend), stories can be posted from Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.

2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories, editorials, and press releases are welcome in this thread, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to items from a few years back that support your position.

3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.

4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.

5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.

6 - The person adding a news story to the "GITN" thread is allowed (and encouraged) to comment on that story, indicating their position on the topic being discussed. These comments can appear either at the beginning or end of the post; if possible, place comments in a different typeface so readers can separate the comments from the story. Others who wish to comment on a posted story can do so by replying to that story; thsi allows other readers to follow the comments by scrolling through the subthread.

7 - Please direct your comments to the story, rather than attacking the person posting the story or any person responding to the story. In accordance with DU rules, any message that appears to be a personal attack against another DU-er or a violation of any other DU rule will be reported to the moderators.

8 - If you object to these guidelines, do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

[CO Liberal]

1. Briefly: State rep pleads guilty in gun case (MN)

A typical Republican lawmaker, bought and paid for by the gun lobby. They should be SO proud of him.... - Wayne

* * * * *

Briefly: State rep pleads guilty in gun case

Published February 13, 2004

A state representative from Waverly who was arrested in December after screeners found a handgun in his carry-on luggage at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport pleaded guilty Thursday to a misdemeanor charge.

Rep. Dick Borrell, a Republican, entered the guilty plea at his first appearance on the charge in Hennepin County District Court.

After he was arrested, Borrell said he had forgotten that the derringer was in a carry-on bag he tried to take with him on a flight.

As part of a plea bargain, he agreed to surrender the gun and pay prosecution costs of $1,000. He was sentenced to one year of unsupervised release, a form of probation. If he completes the probation, the sentence will be vacated and the charge dismissed.

<more>

http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/4374680.html

[CO Liberal]

2. Gun enthusiasts drive booming illegal gun trade (Japan)

More of them "law-abiding gun owners" that non of us have to worry about. - Wayne

* * * * *

Gun enthusiasts drive booming illegal gun trade

The number of handguns police seized from online traders has shot up by nearly 75 percent in 2003 from the corresponding figure a year before, a National Police Agency (NPA) report has shown.

The report published on Thursday also revealed that gun enthusiasts have clearly overtaken members of gang organizations as the number one customers in the illegal gun trade. A total of 785 pistols were confiscated in Japan and 451 of them, or 57.5 percent, were seized from members of the public without gangland connections.

"Online trade gives you anonymity and goods are also delivered to your door. These conveniences attract gun enthusiasts," a NPA spokesman said.

During 2003, some 200 handguns traded online were seized, a 74.8 percent increase from a year before. The number of pistols seized from online traders in 2002 was 115.

<more>

http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20040212p2a00m0dm001000c.html

[demsrule4life]

3. I already posted it

in yesterdays guns in the news.

[CO Liberal]

4. Sorry - Didn't See It

But it DOES kinda show that you can't make blanket statements, such as "you don't have to worry about law-abiding gun owners - just the criminals". Because when given the opportunity and ebough temptation/incentive, even "law-abiding" people can go bad.

[demsrule4life]

5. I see it as more proof that

gun bans don't work. People want them, people can get them.

[CO Liberal]

11. Therefore...

...we need to make them harder to get so only those who SHOULD have them CAN have them.

[demsrule4life]

14. LOL

Can you get any tougher then Japan?

[RoeBear]

80. As long as we agree that those that 'should'...

...have them are those that want them and can pass a NICS check, then I agree wit ya.

[RoeBear]

73. Sounds to me like...

..."Let's punish people before they do something wrong"

And that's not right.

[MrBenchley]

6. Did you notice this part?

"The number of people killed by guns went up by 11 to 35, the NPA report read."

That would be 35 in the entire nation of 127 million. There are roughly twice that many in Birmingham, Alabama, (population 250,000) in any given year..

[demsrule4life]

8. Did you also notice on the page

the link to the story that Japan is finally going to make gang rape against the law? Nice...

[MrBenchley]

9. There are all sort of links on that page, dems...

but not that one...

" Japanese  Top Page

Lucrative bank account business busted in Tokyo
Defense Agency private data collection ruled illegal
Vengeful cop uses judo lesson to pay back son's bullies
Student drives off with woman on bonnet after crash
Girl skips 6-months of school over teacher's discrimination of disabled
Passenger nabbed for telling hit-and-run driver to flee
JR hushed up sleepy bullet train driver overrunning platform
U.S. drops demands in offer to return Okinawa air base
Ex-nuclear scientist caught siphoning research funds
Ex-LDP legislator Koyama won't appeal against prison term
Noodle shop manager found murdered in Hyogo
3 schoolboys overpower convenience store robber"

[demsrule4life]

12. Page has changed some since I posted it

in the feb 11 guns in the news.

http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20040211p2a00m0dm010001c.html

[iverglas]

13. gimme a fucking break

Did you also notice on the page
the link to the story that Japan is finally going to make gang rape against the law? Nice...

Are you seriously implying that your understanding is that gang rape was not formerly against the law?

http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/897236/rape-0-2.html

I mean, the article wasn't that well written, but really.

http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/897236/rape-0-10.html

The Ministry of Justice is preparing to introduce tougher laws on rape, along with a new "group rape" crime, following a gang rape case involving students from Japan's prestigious Waseda University, it has been learned.

Canada does not have a "gang rape" law. Does your state?

Do you suppose that the parties to the commission of a "gang rape" would not be prosecuted in Canada, or in your state? That "gang rape" is not "against the law" here, or there?

We don't have a "gang robbery" law, either. We just kind of figure, I guess, that if 2 or more people take part in the commission of a robbery, they've all committed robbery and may be prosecuted for it.

What Japan is doing is defining a separate offence of "group rape". It will presumably include all the elements of "rape", along with the element consisting of participation with others in the commission of the offence.

http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/897236/rape-0-15.html

Seven of Japan's "best and brightest" young men were arrested Wednesday and fresh charges laid against another four for gang-raping a girl earlier this year, police said.

Shinichiro Wada, the ringleader of a now defunct Waseda University-based party organizer group called Super Free, and three other men already being tried together with him for rape, were issued with further charges in connection with a violent sex attack on an 18-year-old girl.

Obviously, if the allegations are true, they all committed rape, a criminal offence. They didn't commit a "not against the law" "gang-rape" ... or they wouldn't be on trial for anything.

What kind of ethnocentricity prompts someone to interpret news like this as meaning that another people/culture/society/nation is only now making it "against the law" for groups of men to sexually assault women?

.

[demsrule4life]

15. At least you were bright enough

to find it. :)

[MrBenchley]

16. I guess it's the same sort of mindset

that makes a connection between "gang rape" and a crackdown on fetish objects.....

[demsrule4life]

17. or the type that posts links

from kkk websites.

[MrBenchley]

18. I posted it to show what scum the gun rights crowd is

dems...not to try and pass that crap off as golden words of wisdom.

Nor am I trying to pretend that rape isn't a crime in Japan....or that it has ANYTHING in the world to do with guns.

[Romulus]

20. thank you

for giving us another example we can cite where you claim that gunowners are "scum."


Re:linking to a KKK website - "I posted it to show what scum the gun rights crowd is"

[MrBenchley]

21. If you don't like your playmates, don't climb in the sandbox

[CO Liberal]

25. People Are Known By The Company They Keep

Remember that.

[Romulus]

26. Just like the ACLU, CO? (eom)

[MrBenchley]

27. And what does the ACLU have to say?

"We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration. "

http://archive.aclu.org/library/aaguns.html

[demsrule4life]

28. That is their opinion

and guess what?

[MrBenchley]

33. It has more weight than yours?

It also is reinforced by what the courts say?

It has actual knowledge of the law and the Bill of Rights behind it?

[demsrule4life]

46. As long a they pick and choose which rights they will defend

I wont give a shit what their opinion is.

[MrBenchley]

55. I'm sure they'll be really upset to hear that, too

Imagine....a guy who claims Ed Asner is a communist, slanders any Democrat anyone ever heard of, and constantly posts crap from right wing cesspools, knocking the ACLU? Who would have guessed it?

[Romulus]

32. Here's something actually relevant to the discussion:

The topic being the support of issues that transcend the unpopular actors pressing those issues:

http://www.aclu.org/info/info.cfm?ID=14684&c=248#3_4

Why did the ACLU defend NAMBLA?
In representing NAMBLA, the ACLU does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children. What we do advocate is robust freedom of speech. This lawsuit strikes at the heart of freedom of speech. The defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. For more information, please read the ACLU’s press release.

http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=8100&c=86

ACLU Statement on Defending Free Speech of Unpopular Organizations

In celebrated cases, the ACLU has stood up for everyone from Oliver North to the National Socialist Party. In spite of all that, the ACLU has never advocated Christianity, ritual animal sacrifice, trading arms for hostages or genocide.

*snip*

What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.

It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable. But the defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. That was true when the Nazis marched in Skokie. It remains true today.




P.S.:
http://www.aclu.org/info/info.cfm?ID=14684&c=248#3_4
What is the ACLU’s position on gun control?
The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control.

[MrBenchley]

34. Yeah, the ACLU defended their right to speak...

The group didn't begin advocating those causes....

Nice edit job by the way...somebody too lazy to click would never guess that the next section says "We believe the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons, nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration.  For more information, please read our statement on gun control."

[Romulus]

35. *yawn*

So, are they neutral on the issue, or not? That's what is relevant. They sure advocate for other things, like affirmative action, and not just the right to speak about affirmative action.

Nice edit job by the way...somebody too lazy to click would never guess that the next section says "We believe the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons, nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration. For more information, please read our statement on gun control."

[MrBenchley]

43. Yeah, they don't see gun control

as any sort of violation of the Bill of Rights, and they reject all that bogus "gun rights" crap..

"They sure advocate for other things, like affirmative action"
Yeah, they do. That's because they know the difference between civil rights and shielding a corrupt industry's blood money..

[demsrule4life]

49. Civil rights?

Is that like throwing people in prison without a trial? or denying someone the right to have a job after he paid his debt to society? those kinds of civil rights?

[MrBenchley]

53. Civil rights...not gun nut fantasy

[demsrule4life]

30. So which of us belong to the KKK?

because when you make a comment like this I feel I'm being accused of belonging to them, strange since I had a few put in prision in my time.

[MrBenchley]

36. Strange....

"when you make a comment like this I feel I'm being accused"
"People Are Known By The Company They Keep" seems by you like an accusation of something?

[demsrule4life]

38. Does it to you?

in the context it is used here I feel it it. Only time I have kept any company with the KKK was handcuffing, transporting, booking them in the jail and later testifying in court.

[alwynsw]

40. I've spent a great deal of time with the KKK

during my tenure as a supervisor at a max security penitentiary. I like the cuffs and shackles on 'em. I wish we had more of them in the Graybar Hotel.

http://www.corrections.ky.gov/KSP.htm

[MrBenchley]

45. Doesn't to me...

[slackmaster]

47. Yeah, suuuuuuuuuuuuuure it doesn't

:evilgrin:

[demsrule4life]

52. Ok, I will remember that

[iverglas]

56. too bad you can't actually do that

thank you
for giving us another example we can cite where you claim that gunowners are "scum."

Re:linking to a KKK website - "I posted it to show what scum the gun rights crowd is"


Odd how anybody could look at those two bits of data, so close on the time-space continuum as they are, and not see the gross disconnect between them.


I mean, me, I just can't help but see the difference between "gunowners" and "gun rights crowd" ... but that's just me. I don't take Fridays off to drink, by the bye and à propos of absolutely nothing.

.

[alwynsw]

57. At whom is that zinger aimed?

I don't take Fridays off to drink

[MrBenchley]

58. Amazing, isn't it?

But hey, if it weren't for denial, distortion and outright deception, the RKBA crowd would have to be mute as stones.

[Romulus]

61. bwahahah

Who was it again that said this:
If you don't like your playmates, don't climb in the sandbox

[MrBenchley]

62. Who was it climbed in the sandbox and then began bitching

when their playmates were pointed out?

Nobody asked you to come galloping to the defense of the KKK, or pretend that their dishonest and extremist gibberish represented the feelings of all gun owners. You climbed on that hobbyhorse as a volunteer.

[grower]

84. lots like

hate crimes I imagine. Or maybe a robbery with a gun added to the code along side 'plain robbery' I dont suppose Canada has done anything like adding robbery with a gun just incase someone thought that if you used a gun and since 'gun' wasn't mentioned in the code the bad guy might get off

[iverglas]

95. if I understand you correctly

lots like
hate crimes I imagine. Or maybe a robbery with a gun added to the code along side 'plain robbery'

That's pretty much just what it is like, in fact.

In the jargon of the trade, these things are often known as "aggravating circumstances". In Canada, aggravating factors that sentencing judges are directed to consider include motivation by bias, commission of the crime against one's spouse or child, abuse of a position of trust, and acting for the benefit of a criminal organization.

I dont suppose Canada has done anything like adding robbery with a gun just incase someone thought that if you used a gun and since 'gun' wasn't mentioned in the code the bad guy might get off

Here you lose me somewhat ... but no, Canada hasn't done that. Pretty much because it wouldn't make any sense to do it. Who would think that if someone committed a robbery (assault + theft) using a firearm s/he would be acquitted because the Code didn't mention the firearm?

What Canada does do -- and who knows, maybe this is what you had in mind -- is have a number of offences where the maximum sentence is specifically increased when the crime is committed using a firearm, the use of a firearm not being just an aggravating factor to be considered, but actually requiring a minimum term of imprisonment on conviction. (This -- the commission of an offence using a firearm -- is one of the few exceptions that our Supreme Court permits to the general rule that minimum sentences unjustifiably violate constitutional rights.) For instance, "aggravated sexual assault":

PART VIII OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON AND REPUTATION
Assaults

Aggravated sexual assault

273. (1) Every one commits an aggravated sexual assault who, in committing a sexual assault, wounds, maims, disfigures or endangers the life of the complainant.

Aggravated sexual assault

(2) Every person who commits an aggravated sexual assault is guilty of an indictable offence and liable

(a) where a firearm is used in the commission of the offence, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of four years; and

(b) in any other case, to imprisonment for life.

And yes, that sort of provision could be made to deal sexual assaults by multiple assailants, if it seemed wise.

Obviously, including specific provisions like that is intended to both

- express society's specially strong denunciation of the offence; and
- heighten the deterrent effect of the law by giving notice that sentences may be severe.

That is apparently what Japan has decided it would be wise to do in the case of sexual assault by multiple assailants.

I'm sure we're all agreed now that this does not mean that "group rape" was not unlawful until now.

If I have failed to take any point you were making, do please clarify it.

.

[Stoker]

42. But these AREN'T law abiding gun owners...

"More of them "law-abiding gun owners" that non of us have to worry about. - Wayne

If you are illegally selling or aquiring firearms, then you are not a "law abiding gun owner".

That said, there is no good reason why I shouldn't be able to purchase firearms mail-order to my door. You used to be able to order them out of the Sears & Roebuck catalog and have them sent to your door.

I mean really. If I can anonymously walk down the street and sell Fred a pistol, why can't I mail it to him?

Instead, in the U.S.A., If I want to mail Fred a pistol, I have to go down to my local gun shop, who holds an FFL license, and mail it to another gun shop near Fred, that also holds an FFL license, where Fred can pick it up. Of course, both Fred and I have to pay the gun shop for the service.

It's a hassle, an expense, does nothing to hinder me from selling a pistol to Fred, and moreover, only people who are interested in following the law go to the trouble - the law-abiding. Everyone else just boxes it up and ships it without saying what's in the box.

Stoker

[demsrule4life]

44. I have used Fed Ex four times to ship guns

latest was yesterday. You don't need an FFL to ship from them as long as the gun is going to a gun shop.

[alwynsw]

51. I've lost count of how many I've shipped

But then, they're always going to Magnaport or some other manufacturer or dealer for modifications or repairs. No FFL here.

[MrBenchley]

7. Teen charged in shooting has criminal history (OH)

"The Portage County juvenile charged with shooting a 12-year-old friend last week has a lengthy criminal history, police records show.
The suspect was identified by police on Thursday as 14-year-old Kyle L. Weiskopf of Kent, who had been living in a Portage County foster home.
According to Brimfield Township police records, he has eight previous offenses."

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/local/7944469.htm

[MrBenchley]

10. Wake Sheriff's Deputy Killed In Shooting (NC)

HOLLY SPRINGS, N.C. -- A Wake County sheriff's deputy was apparently shot and killed Thursday afternoon.
The shooting happened around 1:39 p.m. near the intersection of Holly Springs Road and Winding Oak Way."

http://www.wxii12.com/news/2843745/detail.html

[MrBenchley]

19. Police Investigating Penn Hills Shooting

"PENN HILLS, Pa. -- Police are investigating a shooting in Penn Hills early Friday morning.
Lt. Poland reports that the shooting happened at 2:30 a.m. in the street on the 7200 block of Schley Street."

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/2844952/detail.html

[MrBenchley]

22. Female robber brandishes gun in heists at stores (IN)

"Police are looking for an armed woman who robbed at least two Indianapolis convenience stores in five days.
Sgt. Mark Albert, of the Marion County Sheriff Department's homicide and robbery unit, said the woman robbed both businesses early in the morning.
Police believe she might have robbed a third store earlier this month.
"Women aren't involved very often at all," Albert said. "It's pretty much out of the ordinary for a female to do a robbery."
The woman, who didn't wear a mask, yelled during the robberies, police said, and acted out of control."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/6/120364-6866-009.html

[MrBenchley]

23. 2nd man to die in 2002 killing

"FORT WORTH - A former Army recruiter was sentenced to death Thursday for the slaying of Nyanuer "Mary" Pal on Valentine's Day 2002.
Foster was convicted of capital murder on Feb. 6. His former roommate, Sheldon Ward, was sentenced to death in May for the same crime.
Witnesses said that Foster and Ward followed Pal from a west-side pool hall on the night of Feb. 14, 2002. Two workers laying water pipe found Pal's body in a remote area near Lake Worth. Semen on her body matched Ward's and Foster's. The bullet used to kill Pal matched the gun found in the motel room the men shared.
Ballistics experts testified that the gun used to kill Pal was the same gun used to kill Urnosky, who was found dead in her bed in her Fort Worth apartment two months before Pal's killing."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/local/7945743.htm

[MrBenchley]

24. Saginaw school officials expel 11-year-old student for carrying pellet gun

More folks for the RKBA crowd to slander....

"SAGINAW -- An 11-year-old has been expelled from a middle school for carrying a pellet gun on campus.
The city's board of education expelled the Central Middle School student, but delayed decisions on two other students -- a 16-year-old Saginaw High School junior caught with a gun and a 15-year-old Arthur Hill High School sophomore spotted with a pellet gun.
School leaders also have yet to take action against a student caught toting a gun last Friday at Arthur Hill.
"We want to deal with this as quickly as possible, but we have to make sure that we give the students due process," district spokesman Michael Manley told The Saginaw News.
So far this year, Saginaw school officials have expelled five students for bringing weapons to school grounds."

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm18457_20040213.htm

[alwynsw]

39. Who would an RKBA proponent slander in reference to this article?

The kid had a pellet gun on school grounds in direct contravention of school rules. End of story. Pellet guns can kill. I hunt small game with .177 RWS pellet guns.

[slackmaster]

41. WTF are you talking about?

More folks for the RKBA crowd to slander....

Nonsense.

[MrBenchley]

29. Teen found guilty in slaying (MI)

"Discounting the boy's alibi defense, a six-member jury deliberated less than 15 minutes on Thursday before convicting a 14-year-old budding hip-hop artist of felony murder and carjacking.
Family and friends of the defendant, Curtis (Static) Smith of Highland Park, cried out in disbelief after the verdict was announced. A squad of more than a dozen sheriff's deputies cleared Wayne County Family Court Judge Sheila Gibson Manning's courtroom.
Smith was 13 when he was charged last August in the robbery and fatal shooting of Curtis Foster, 19, on Leslie Street in Highland Park -- the same block where Smith lived with his mother, Doris Jean Gibson. "

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/juvie13_20040213.htm

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[MrBenchley]

37. ury begins deliberating in Waffle House murders (FL)

"He's either an innocent dupe who feared his armed roommate, or a cold-blooded robber who plotted a bloody restaurant heist that left two people dead and a third with a bullet in the back of her head.
Those were the dueling portraits of Jimmy Mickel that a Broward Circuit Court jury began considering behind closed doors late Thursday afternoon as they weighed whether to convict him of the March 2002 slayings at the Waffle House in Davie. Mickel, 34, had once worked at the restaurant as a cook.
Mickel could receive the death penalty if he's convicted of the slayings of waitress Christina Delarosa, 17, and cook Willy Absolu, 29. Both employees died after Mickel's roommate, Gerhard "Chip" Hojan, opened fire with a handgun after forcing them into the restaurant's cramped freezer.
Hojan shot a third employee, Barbara Nunn, in the head, but she survived and ran to a nearby gas station after Hojan and Mickel left."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-cwaffle13feb13,0,1673182.story?coll=sfla-news-broward

[MrBenchley]

48. Phone call credited in saving life of abducted woman near West Palm (FL)

"When the stranger asked her for directions shortly before 4 a.m. Wednesday, the 26-year-old woman reluctantly moved closer to his truck, but she secretly dialed her boyfriend on her cell phone, leaving an open line, police said. When her boyfriend answered, he heard screams and an unfamiliar male voice.
What her boyfriend didn't realize was that the man had just put a gun to his girlfriend's head and dragged her inside his truck, then drove her to the dead end of a road west of West Palm Beach, police said. The boyfriend tried to talk to the woman, but she didn't respond.
The phone call may have saved the woman's life.
Charles Pledger, 23, is accused of abducting and raping the woman, then trying to kill her and a sheriff's deputy. Another sheriff's deputy shot Pledger in the arm as Pledger tried to flee."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-prape13feb13,0,3002286.story?coll=sfla-news-palm

[Stoker]

50. Yeah, that phone call sure kept...

..that guy from having his way with her, eh?

All a phone is going to do for you is allow someone else to come along and pick up the pieces of whatever is left of you.

When you're faced with an assailant pointing a gun at you and dragging you somewhere you don't want to go, would you rather be armed with phone or a gun?

While a gun is no guarantee, I'll take my chances with the gun. I can fight back with a gun.

Stoker

[iverglas]

60. abducted sexually assaulted almost killed woman checking in

I just love it when the big brave boys say things like "I'll take my chances with the gun". Maybe one of them could tell us the precise point at which he would have taken that chance, in this little tale.

When he moved closer to the car -- pull the gun out and point it just in case? Gosh, in those circumstances I might have recommended staying away from the car, if it was a situation in which somebody felt the need to pull a fucking gun before getting closer.

When the would-be abductor had his gun to our hypothetical brave boy's head? Now that strikes me as reeeal smart.

Y'know, men who have formed a plan to abduct, assault and kill a woman don't tend to announce their intentions. They're not like Lenny and Whosit on Law & Order; they don't stand half a block away and call your name and wait for you to run, for the cameras. Nope. They actually plan it so that you're at a disadvantage. Whether because you have misinterpreted a situation and unknowingly placed yourself at risk, or because they have taken you completely by surprise. They really, really do not just sit there and say "hey, I'm going to abduct you now, and then I'm going to assault you, and then I might kill you; whatcha gonna do about it?"

I am insulted and offended to no fucking end by the presumption and arrogance and self-absorption of anyone who would suggest that this woman could have saved herself the aggravation by carrying a firearm.

If I had been carrying a firearm when I was abducted, there is a very excellent chance that I'd have been dead for about 30 years now. I was not in control of the situation, and I therefore would not have been in control of my firearm.

The abductor didn't have a firearm, but if *I* had had one, he probably would have.

Shit happens. Men do abduct and assault, and sometimes kill, women. There really is no fucking magic bullet that will prevent this from happening, any more than there is a magic bullet for anything else that ails us as individuals or as a society.

What DID save my life in that situation, apart from my quick wits and feet, was that the abductor DID NOT have a firearm. If he'd had one, I would very definitely have been dead for all those years; I have not the slightest doubt of it. I was able to run away from him; if he'd had a gun, I would not have run very far at all.

I learned things that I could do to avoid the situation that I had found myself in. The woman in this story has probably done the same. She took precautions that were insufficient to prevent some harm, but did prevent other harm. Better that she had had more knowledge, more faith in her own judgment, more experience, to rely on in assessing the situation. But her having a firearm would almost certainly not have done anything to prevent what did happen, because she would have needed exactly the knowledge and experience and faith in her judgment, if she were to use it in the tiny early window when it could maybe have got her out of the situation, that would already have told her not to get into it in the first place -- which is just too fucking obviously the best "solution" she could have applied.

And if the would-be abductor had NOT had a firearm, how much better everything would have been than in any other imaginary scenario we can think of in this case.

Damned if that doesn't seem to me like the solution we should be aiming for -- the BEST one.


(omitted word corrected)

.

[MrBenchley]

63. You may recall that

puerile fantasy and blowhard chest thumping made up the entirety of the argument against gun control the other day.

[alwynsw]

65. Who are you calling boys?

Did you see us coming out of a skinny dip on a cold day?

[Stoker]

81. Sorry to hear about your experience.

"I just love it when the big brave boys say things like "I'll take my chances with the gun". Maybe one of them could tell us the precise point at which he would have taken that chance, in this little tale."

As I said, having a gun is no guarantee. And in some situations, maybe even this one, they are useless. You're in deep kimshee if you find yourself in a situation where someone has already gotten the drop on you. But here's the question: Once this has already happened, and you have come to the conclusion that your life is in mortal danger, would you rather be armed or unarmed? Me, I'd want to be armed. This is not being a "big brave boy" or "chest thumping". I want the chance to resist.

"I am insulted and offended to no fucking end by the presumption and arrogance and self-absorption of anyone who would suggest that this woman could have saved herself the aggravation by carrying a firearm."

No one will ever know what would have happened if this woman had been carrying a firearm. What we do know from the situation, however, is that carrying a phone didn't do much good. All it does is let someone come pick up the pieces - after the fact. Could she have ended up the same way if she were armed? Sure. But I'll take a chance over no chance every day.

And if the would-be abductor had NOT had a firearm, how much better everything would have been than in any other imaginary scenario we can think of in this case.

But since we will never be rid of firearms, or whatever similar force-projecting weaponry the future might bring, it's best to be prepared for the eventuality that bad people will continue to have access to them, just as they always have.

Each person should prepare for that eventuality in whatever way is most comfortable for them. Some people will invest in good running shoes. I'll keep buying ammo.

Stoker

[MrBenchley]

54. Local Store Clerk Shot, Killed During Robbery (NC)

"HIGH POINT, N.C. -- Investigators said someone shot and killed 57-year-old Milagro Garcia Perez Thursday night at Cubana Mexicana on East Ward Street in High Point.
Officials said Perez was shot inside the store during an armed robbery."

http://www.wxii12.com/news/2845491/detail.html

[MrBenchley]

59. Gunfire Erupts During Gas Station Argument (TX)

"A man was left fighting for his life Friday morning after he was injured during a shootout at a southwest Houston gas station.
Crime scene detectives told News2Houston two men were arguing in the parking lot of a Chevron station in the 9000 block of Westpark at Fondren around 3 a.m. when both pulled out guns and fired shots at each other. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=320&ncid=320&e=4&u=/ibsys/20040213/lo_kprc/2006629

[MrBenchley]

64. KCK man wanted on assault charge

" Police were searching for a man who pulled a gun and pointed it at police early Thursday in Kansas City, Kan.
Christopher Kirby, 28, of Kansas City, Kan., was charged with aggravated assault on a law enforcement officer and aggravated assault on another person.
Police received a call at 5:06 a.m. about a domestic disturbance in the 1800 block of Tennyson Street. A woman at the address said she had been beaten by her boyfriend, Police Capt. Michael Kobe said. Police tried to arrest the man, Kobe said, and a struggle ensued. The man then pulled a handgun and pointed it at the officers before he ran inside the house."

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/7942576.htm

[MrBenchley]

66. OP Police Investigate Shootings Along Highways (MO)

"Police are investigating several shootings Thursday night along several highways.
Around 8:15 p.m., police were sent to a shooting in the 9800 block of Highway 69. A driver told them someone pulled alongside him and shot at the side rear window of his car.
While officers were taking the report, three more calls came in about similar shootings. Those incidents occurred along Highway 69 and Interstate 435, 99th Street and Quivira, and Interstate 35 at 75th Street. Similar incidents also occurred in Merriam and Lenexa. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ibsys/20040213/lo_kmbc/2006518&e=2

[Superfly]

67. Hi!

[alwynsw]

68. We're here! We shoot deer! Get used to it!

props to the GLBT crew for allowing me to hijack their parade slogan

[Superfly]

69. I love it!

[MrBenchley]

70. Fourth person is charged in Gables slayings (FL)

"Miami-Dade police charged a fourth person in the July double murder of a Coral Gables doctor and his son: a 70-year-old man who had been arrested this month following a botched robbery.
Ruben Fernandez is also the great-uncle of another suspect in the slayings of psychiatrist Dr. Paul Jarrett and his adult son, who were shot to death as they slept, police said.
The killings had been unsolved, police said, until Fernandez and Jose Miguel Barco conspired to hold up an armored truck Feb. 3 outside a Miami Beach credit union.
Two of the guns found on Barco and in the getaway car were linked to the Jarrett murders: one had been taken from the home at 5495 Hammocks Lake Dr. and the other was used in the killings."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/7943092.htm

[MrBenchley]

71. 3 Men Sought In Armed Robbery Of Uptown Bar (LA)

"New Orleans police are asking for the public's help in locating and identifying suspects wanted in connection with the armed robbery of a local bar.
The robbery was captured by surveillance cameras.
The offense occurred Monday just before 7:30 p.m., at 530 Lyons St, at Grits.
According to investigators, three men entered the bar and approached the bartender as if they were going to order drinks. One man then produced a handgun and demanded money. The other men, also armed, forced two patrons to the floor. The men then ordered the patrons and the bartender to the restroom. Moments later, the men fled the bar. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=378&ncid=378&e=6&u=/ibsys/20040210/lo_wdsu/2002188

[Superfly]

72. A horse walks into a bar...

[alwynsw]

74. A skeleton walks into a bar

and says, "I'll have a beer and a mop."

[Superfly]

76. Heh, heh, heh...

[MrBenchley]

75. Reward Increased For Gun Used In Trooper Slaying (OK)

"OKLAHOMA CITY -- The reward for the gun used to kill an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper the day after Christmas is being increased.
The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation is now offering a $2,000 reward for the Glock .357 semi-automatic used to kill Trooper Nikky Green. The OSBI has said investigators believe the gun was thrown into a trash bin behind the Travel Lodge motel in Norman.
Green was shot to death near Devol while investigating a suspicious car on the side of the road."

http://www.channeloklahoma.com/news/2845640/detail.html

[MrBenchley]

77. Two dead, one injured in Poconos shooting

"KUNKLETOWN, Pa. (AP) -- Two people were killed and one critically injured in a shooting at a house, police said Friday.
The victims were found about 7 a.m. Friday in a house in the Evergreen Lakes development of Polk Township, Monroe County, state police Trooper Aprilaurie Whitley said. One person was taken to the hospital in critical condition, she said."

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PA_THREE_SHOT_PAOL-?SITE=PAPIT&SECTION=HOME

[Superfly]

78. I used to hunt deer up the Poconos.

had one of the coldest damned days I ever spent in my life. Beautiful part of PA, weird liquor laws.

[MrBenchley]

79. Mercer County school worker charged with weapons offenses (PA)

"Nathan Andrew Horstman, of Grove City, a cottage parent at the residential facility for abused and delinquent boys, was charged Sunday with possessing a loaded Glock 9mm pistol, a pellet rifle and two large knives, which are prohibited on the campus."

http://www.pittsburgpost-gazette.com/pg/04044/272690.stm

[MrBenchley]

82. 3 arrested in robbery of elderly woman (PA)

"The robbery occurred Monday just before 3 p.m. in a parking lot at the mall, police said. The victim was leaving her vehicle when a car with three men inside pulled up. One of the men showed a gun and demanded the woman's purse. The men then drove away.
A witness noted the license number of the car, which was registered to one of the men arrested, police said."

http://www.pittsburgpost-gazette.com/pg/04044/272684.stm

[MrBenchley]

83. Police: Angry Customer Fires Shot At Car Wash (MI)

"A man who was reportedly impatient at a Taylor car wash is in police custody for firing off a gun Friday.
The man -- believed to be in his 60s -- was in line at the car wash when he got upset over another customer who had to leave the line, causing everyone to back up their cars, according to Taylor police. The man then fired a shot, police said. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040213/lo_wdiv/2006984

[MrBenchley]

85. School Locks Down After Man Seen With Gun (CA)

"Classes have resumed at a Sacramento middle school after reports of a possible armed man near the campus.
A janitor at Arcade Middle School on Watt Avenue claimed he saw a man with a gun, running away from the campus Friday morning.
Sheriff's deputies believe the man may have run into a nearby apartment complex. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=289&ncid=289&e=1&u=/ibsys/20040213/lo_kcra/2007290

[MrBenchley]

86. Man Found Dead After Gun Battle (CA)

"Authorities said fire crews were the first to respond to the home on Osborne Court at about 11:45 a.m. after a fire was reportedly set during a dispute between two neighbors.
Sacramento County Sheriff's Department spokesman Lou Fatur said when officers arrived they were confronted by one of the neighbors, who threatened them with a gun.
Officers exchanged gunfire with the man, who was reportedly armed with a rifle.
Authorities said residents were evacuated from surrounding homes and a command post was been set up in the parking lot of the Department of Motor Vehicles office on North Avenue.
Later, SWAT officers sent a robot into the home and found the man dead inside."

http://www.thekcrachannel.com/news/2843589/detail.html

[MrBenchley]

87. Local soldier accused of trying to give al-Qaida info (WA)

"About two years ago, a young man using the screen name "akagunfighter" joined a local Islamic Internet chat room.
His real name was Ryan G. Anderson, and he could hardly have been less welcome.
Anderson was arrested yesterday by U.S. Army officials, who say the 26-year-old National Guardsman attempted to communicate and provide intelligence to the al-Qaida terrorism network.
"He was introducing himself as a new Muslim and wanted to teach people to shoot rifles and guns, which we don't do," recalled Aziz Junejo, a Seattle Muslim advocate and host of the cable-TV show "Focus on Islam."
Jack Roberts, who lives next door to Anderson at the Cambridge Square Apartments in Lynnwood, said he spoke with Anderson's wife after the FBI searched their apartment and seized several guns yesterday. "

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001857111_ryan13m.html

[FeebMaster]

88. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

.

[MrBenchley]

89. Humphreys faces death penalty in killings at Cobb model home (GA)

"A Cobb grand jury returned murder indictments against 30-year-old parolee Stacey Ian Humphreys in the slayings of Cynthia Williams and her Morrison Homes co-worker, Lori K. Brown.
Williams, 33, was shot twice and apparently strangled, Brown, 21, was shot once, police said."
 
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/cobb/0204/13humphreys.html

[MrBenchley]

90. Man arrested for multiple charges after foot chase (AZ)

"A 21-year-old Tucson man who ran from police and waved a gun at an officer was arrested late Thursday night and charged with a shooting at an East Side apartment.
Tucson Police officer Anthony Flores fired two shots at Roberto Pereyda during the chase, but neither shot struck Pereyda, said Sgt. Marco Borboa, a spokesman for the Tucson Police Department.
Pereyda is in custody at the Pima County Jail without bail on charges of attempted murder, three counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, prohibited weapons possession, possession of marijuana, drug paraphernalia, and dangerous drugs, and an outstanding traffic warrant, a jail official said.
Officer Flores responded at 10:39 p.m. to an apartment in the 5400 block of East 30th Street to a report of gunfire and a woman screaming, Borboa said. Several witnesses identified Pereyda, who was walking away with a 12-pack of beer when the officer arrived on scene, as the shooting suspect, Borboa said. "

http://regulus.azstarnet.com/hourlyupdate/story.php?id=6

[MrBenchley]

91. Report: Woman, EMT Shot From Ky. Highway

"A woman was shot inside her home, possibly by a gunman on the highway, and when help arrived, an EMT was the next victim, according to police.
A police SWAT team is currently at the scene on Interstate 75, near mile marker 99, just south of Lexington, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 reported. The shootings began at about 3:30 p.m. Friday.
The gunman remains at large.
Police said it's still a dangerous situation, as gunshots still can be heard, WLWT reported. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040213/lo_wlwt/2007514

[alwynsw]

96. Two dead. He surrendered around 10:00 P.M., EST Friday night.

We have the death penalty here. I do hope it's invoked in this case.

[MrSandman]

97. Although I am opposed to capital punishment,

When it is available, it should be used. Less hypocrisy from the system that way.

[MrBenchley]

92. Man Shot, Killed In Mattapan (MA)

"An 18-year-old man was shot and killed in Mattapan Friday afternoon.
Police said that the man was shot in the chest near Cummins Highway. The name of the victim has not yet been released. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040213/lo_WCVB/2007465

[MrBenchley]

93. Central City Shooting Suspect Surrenders To Police (LA)

"A New Orleans man sought in the Sunday shooting of four men in Central City surrendered to police Friday.
The suspect, Jarnell Sanders, 18, allegedly fired from a pickup truck into a crowd of people gathered outside a food store near Martin Luther King Boulevard and LaSalle Street at about 2:15 p.m.
The victims, ages 21, 23, 26 and 28, were not seriously were taken to Charity Hospital. Their injuries were not life-threatening."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040213/lo_wdsu/2003759

[alwynsw]

94. Still here