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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:28 PM
Original message
The Liberal Case FOR Gun Control
No other first world industrialized country suffers the bloodshed that the United States does…and of course none allows a corrupt industry to set public policy, either.

Most developed nations have crime rates equivalent to the U.S.--but America’s rate of lethal and life threatening violence from assaults is much much greater due to the more frequent use of guns in crimes.

Guns are just about the only consumer product that is not subject to regulation by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. There are no basic safety requirements imposed on the manufacture of handguns. And under a little-noticed amendment in the recent Omnibus Spending Act, the public is now blocked from learning basic information about the gun industry, including information regarding multiple handgun sales by dealers (where 2 or more handguns are sold to the same buyer within 5 days) and basic information regarding crime gun traces. Absurdly, the amendment also prohibited BATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct an annual physical inventory. A further proposed bill would give the gun industry immunity from tort laws.

According to a recent study, about one of every seven guns linked to American crimes or considered suspicious from 1996 through 2000 can be traced back to the same 120 gun stores. Of the 120 high crime dealers named, ninety-six remain open and only twenty-four have been inspected by federal agents during the past three and a half years. Eighteen of these twenty-four dealers were cited for at least one violation of the law. Thanks to the crooked gun lobby, the public cannot see what gun dealers have been flagged for violations, or how many violations a gun dealer has been hit with.

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, the percentage of violent crimes committed with a firearm dropped in 1994 - the same year that the Brady law went into effect. This decline ended the steady increase in gun violence from 1985 to 1993. The firearm crime rate has continued to drop each year since Brady became law.

Loopholes in the Brady Law, however, allow criminals to buy guns at gun shows without undergoing background checks. The gun lobby has spent millions on support for the Republican party, which has kept this loophole propped open and has bottled gun control legislation up in committee.

Besides serving as "tupperware parties for criminals," gun shows have also served as a network for assorted Nazis, white supremacists, neoConfederates, Klansman and other right wing crazies. Oklahoma City bomber Tim McVeigh worked the gun show circuit for years, and did not stand out among his fellow nutcases.

The gun lobby has also spent millions on propaganda to mislead Americans about the Second Amendment. In fact, the courts and legal experts agree that the Second Amendment refers to well-regulated state militias (ACLU: "We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration.")

The National Rifle Association, the public face of the gun lobby, tells its inbred membership that the Second Amendment makes gun control unconstitutional. However, over the years it has been notably reluctant to back that up in court.

Furthermore, the National Rifle Association has become the public face of right wing extremism. Several of its board members have ties to extremist groups or have made racist statements. The NRA’s imbecilic enemies list includes just about every moderate and liberal organization in the country, including the NAACP, the Children's Defense Fund, the A.F.L.-C.I.O, the U.S. Conference of Mayors, the ACLU, the American Academy of Pediatricians, the League of Womens Voters, the PTA and the YWCA.

Nor is the next largest gun owners’ group, the Gun Owners of America any better…Larry Pratt, head of the GOA is a racist so vile that even Pat Buchanan had to flee his company when he came to light.

In fact, some notion of what the whole "gun rights" movement really is all about can be seen from the public figures who trumpet those lies: John AshKKKroft, Tom DeLay, David Duke, Trent Lott, Sean Hannity, David Horowitz, Ann Coulter, etc.

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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank You, Bench
Very eloquent.

:-)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Any time
Let's recall those numbers from the DLC/AGS study....

--90% of Americans want to close the gun show loophole
--86% want increased penalties for gun trafficking, just like Charles Schumer proposes
--79% want background checks for ALL firearm transactions
--77% want an assault weapons ban....
--67% want ALL firearms registered

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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Appeal to Popularity
Fallacy
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Actual popularity
And needed legislation besides.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Popularity does not make it right
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 04:21 PM by Columbia
Good thing we live in a representative, constitutional republic that protects the rights of the minority and not a true democracy - otherwise everything would be decided on the whims of the masses.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Nor does it make it wronng
And the scummy gun industry combines with the Republicans to keep American citizens in the line of fire on a daily basis.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. It does make it wrong
If it treads on the rights of others.

The majority of Americans believe in restricting marriage to heterosexual couples, is this something you'd agree with too?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Hand us a frigging laugh...
"The majority of Americans believe in restricting marriage to heterosexual couples"
Says who? That idiotic O'Leary poll the RKBA crowd was flogging a couple weeks ago?

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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Try the Gallup Poll
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. Did you find it?
Still waiting for an answer to my question.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I plan to start looking
about the time flying monkeys come out of pro-gun Tom DeLay's doughy butt.
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Withergyld Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. I need to make some popcorn
This looks a lot like flame bait to me.
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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. I'll have mine with butter, please
and a large coke. You want Raisinettes or JuJuBes?
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. Hey!
Shouldn't you be eating your popcorn with a margarita on a deck in the Carribean?

:hi:
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. how cute

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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. pretty weak by the way

Your just continuing with the same old smear tactics
by constantly trying to associate all gun owners with people you hate.
This tactic is just like the bushco efforts to associate iraq with 9/11.
I know it burns you up inside that liberals are gun owners too.
Live with it.

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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. And So Many Pro-Gunners....
...continually try to associate all pro-control folks with people THEY hate, such as Sarah Brady, Dianne Feinstein, and ROsie O'Donnell.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Speaking of which
What is your opinion of those fine people anyway?
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. yeah right! ha ha what a larf!

You and bench do more damage to your cause than you help it.

"GRRRRRR those fecal brained gun lovers are all nazis!
You're don't want to be a nazi do you?!?!!"

Oh, and I have never really said anything about those people you mention. I don't really care about them just like I don't care bout the NRA.

But since I'm not for gun control I must be a ted nugent fan. LOL!

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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. fecal laden pantloaders!!!!!!

You don't want to be a pantloader do you?!

LOL!

I guess I'm convinced now. :eyes:


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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Gee, gato, if you don't like your playmates
don't jump in the sandbox with them.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. geeee bench, get a new line (hint: your smear tactics aren't working)

looks like you've lost more people than you've gained with your smear tactics

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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. Are you kidding me?
Ill give you credit for trying but, it would lend more to your credibility if you offered sources, not opionions.

I love this one...


"Besides serving as "tupperware parties for criminals," gun shows have also served as a network for assorted Nazis, white supremacists, neoConfederates, Klansman and other right wing crazies. Oklahoma City bomber Tim McVeigh worked the gun show circuit for years, and did not stand out among his fellow nutcases. "


Yep, thats the reason most people go to gun shows, to network with other Nazis!


This is why we arent taken seriously when there are "legitimate" issues on gun control.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Gee, considering that the case against gun control
was nothing but puerile fantasy about possible shootoouts, I'll stick with my side.

"This is why we arent taken seriously "
By who?
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. That case wasnt made by me
My case against gun control is that

1 - We have plenty of laws on the books that are ineffective. Why? Because criminals, by definition, do NOT adhere to the laws!

2 - Prohibition, which is what the gun control lobby wants, didnt work with alcohol, isnt working with drugs and will not work with guns.

3 - Dont punish law abiding citizens because you are afraid to lock up "criminals". Remember, guns dont cause crime, criminals do.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Old Arguments, Waylon
We have laws agains bank robbery, yet banks are still robbed. Do you propose scrapping all of THOSE laws, since they seem to have no deterrent effect?
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Not the same
There is a difference between laws to deter and punish versus laws that act as prior restraint against future, potential crimes.

Gun control does not deter nor punish criminals, only the law-abiding.
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. I dont propose scrapping any laws...
I would prefer we enforce current laws and leave the good citizens alone!

I am a gun owner, not a criminal! Yet!
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yet Some Gun Owners ARE Criminals
Don't forget that fact.
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. So are some knife owners
How do we legislate that fact out of existence?
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
45. All knife owners are pantloading racists!

and don't get me started on the car drivers!
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. And this ccase is nno better than that one...
"We have plenty of laws on the books that are ineffective. Why? Because criminals, by definition, do NOT adhere to the laws!"
Gee, and yet I doubt the American Bankers Association is going to be pushing for those bank robbery laws to be repealed.

"Prohibition, which is what the gun control lobby wants"
Not even close to true.

"Dont punish law abiding citizens because you are afraid to lock up "criminals"."
What a pantload. No law abiding citizen is "punished" by having a license and a registered gun.
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Wrong wrong wrong
who said repeal laws???? It surely wasnt me! How bout we ENFORCE the laws we have currently? Or is that not enough?

Prohibition is exactly what the gun control lobby wants. They inch forward every day. Just because they dont come out and say it, doesnt mean you cant read between the lines.

And this ongoing assault on gun owners is exactly that, punishment. Do you think the assault weapons ban means ANYTHING to criminals? And why do I need to "register" my gun with ANYONE. Who appoints themselves the registrar? Why do you need this information?

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Who ARE you trying to kid?
Who is that trying to get assault weapons back on the street? Oh yeah, the gun lobby.

And for the record, it's idiotic to make it EASIER for criminals to get their hands on assault weapons because they're doing damage with them now.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Watch out!
Drive-by bayonetings on the rise after AWB sunset! News at 11!
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. So your only issue is with assault weapons?
Ok, Ill play your game. What is an assault weapon?

Suppressor? Bayonet cradle? What specific function makes an assault rifle?

When youre done chewing on that, tell me again that you dont want to prohibit all guns.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Of all the crap the RKBA crowd peddles
this "no one knows what an assault weapon is" might be the most tedious.


I'm happy to go with the definition in S.B. 1461.
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Im not familiar with it
please educate me
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. Sez it all....
You want to argue about assault weapons but don't know the measure proposed.....

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Gee, considering that the case against gun control
was nothing but puerile fantasy about possible shootoouts, I'll stick with my side.

"This is why we arent taken seriously "
By who?
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. By most reasonable citizens...
Some own guns, some dont. When you start saying that all gun owners are nazis and the only reason to go to a gun show is to network with white supremecists, you not only alienate those who dont get involved in politics as we do, but you alienate most of us here!

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Who are you trying to kid?
"When you start saying that all gun owners are nazis"
And if you want to pretend that's what I said, you're already a long way from being reasonable...

The plain fact is that hate groups themselves think the gun shows make for fertile ground to recruit, and are not shy about saying so.

One wonders why every RKBA argument depends either on denial, distortion, or outright dxeception.

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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. My apologies...
I believe what you said was that gunshows serve as "tupperware party for criminals..,. a network for nazis, klansmen etc." Naturally, you dont associate anyone going to gun shows with those labels, right?

Thanks for clearing that up, now it all makes sense.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Do you want to DENY
that is what gun shows are?

Not everyone who goes to a gun show is a Nazi or white supremacist.. But there are plenty of them at every gun show, along with people trying to get around a vackground check.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Really?
I'd be very interested to see your this report on your personal experience at a gun show. What were you shopping for? Any good deals?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Really
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Where is it then?
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Yes, i want to deny that
MOST people that go to gun shows are NOT nazis or otherwise criminals. Kinda like MOST people who go to shopping malls arent pedophiles or shoplifters.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. Says you....
the actual hate groups say different....
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Wow
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 04:45 PM by Columbia
You go to gun shows AND are privy to actual hate groups too?

You truly are a worldy man.
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. You leave too many issues open bench
Im still waiting for YOUR definition of an assault rifle and why Im a scum because I go to gunshows.

Is that the totality of your reasoning behind gun control?
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. hey bench you seem to hang out at Gun shows alot

You're not a racist ted nugent fan are you?!
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. No, gato, I just know the sort of scum that does
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. So Im scum now?
How is that helping the conversation? Why do you have to call me scum because I go to a gun show? Why is that necessary? Are you running out of false analogies, ad hominems, and unsupported assertions now?

god help the gun control lobby
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. really sad bench, you should be ashamed
You have no respect for people here.

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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. Hes obviously never been to a gun show
Nor is he gun owner. He has simply proclaimed himself to be professor to all and we gun owners are scum awaiting his wisdom!
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. Prove it...
"Not everyone who goes to a gun show is a Nazi or white supremacist.. But there are plenty of them at every gun show"

Cite please for the "But there are plenty of them at every gun show" statement.

Without a link, I call BULLSHIT. Prove it bench. Back that statement up, if you can.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. You know what DU needs?
A 'steaming pantload' smilie for this post.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yeah, your post IS a steaming pantlload....
As was the "let's have a shootout" thread.....
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yeah, your post IS a steaming pantlload....
As was the "let's have a shootout" thread.....
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Internet problems Bench?
Good impersonation of Pee Wee Herman though.

'I know you are, but what am I?'
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:22 PM
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
63. Locking
closing this pantload up.

;)
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