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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:24 AM
Original message
N.R.A. Declines to Meet With Obama on Gun Policy
"WASHINGTON — More than two months after the Tucson shootings, the administration is calling together both the gun lobby and gun safety groups to find common ground. But President Obama has no plans to take the lead in proposing further gun control legislation, aides say, and the nation’s major gun rights group is snubbing the invitation."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/us/politics/15guns.html
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. They heard Obama would take their gun away and decided to stay home?

:shrug:

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right2bfree Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
55. We can only hope! nt
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. Ill-mannered assholes.
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 02:03 AM by aquart
It would be appallingly wrong to wonder if they might accidentally shoot off their own dicks.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Cursing in the subject line already
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 03:14 AM by rl6214
Gotta resort to juvenile cussing and you've lost the arguement already. Not to mention the useless content of the rest of your post. I watched Lawrence O'Donnel tonight and he basically threw the President under the bus for his op ed piece, are you going to call him an asshole and ask if he is going to shoot his dick off?

And no, I don't belong to the NRA.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. "And no, I don't belong to the NRA"
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 03:39 AM by MyrnaLoy
you just support them? Defend them? What is your message except for being the arbitrator of cuss-free posts?
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Support them? No. Defend them? No.
My message is, if the best you've got is a curse laden tirade you don't have much to argue about. Just funny to see anti's get all worked up into a lather that they foam at the mouth.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Hmmm this from a guy who
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 04:28 AM by MyrnaLoy
labels people as anti's? Explain to me how you are much better than those you rail against? Do you always label people who you disagree with? Cursing appalls you yet negative labels are OK?

Who else do you label in this world?
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Last time I check 'anti's' was not cussing at anyone
and is not nearly as bad as the "toter", "gun worshipers, fetishists, nuts" or any of a dozen other terms that gun enthusiasts are labeled with. Does the term anti's insult you? Someone who is against gun rights is indeed anti gun rights while someone that is for gun rights is pro gun rights. Not a gun toter, worshiper, fetishist, nut or any other negatively implied term ANTI gun rights people like to use.

"Who else do you label in this world?"


If you consider that a label, I guess you could also throw into that group democrats, republicans, Americans, French, Tea Partiers, Progressives...
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. so labeling, which is akin to name-calling
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 05:32 AM by MyrnaLoy
is ok with you then, interesting. Cussing offended you yet name calling does not. Why would you now equate your name calling with his post, was it a "he did it so I can now do it" thing? You didn't do it as a weak defense against your own unbridled, yes childish, name calling did you?

Is the name Democrat negative? Is the title French negative? This one was the easiest. Anti by any definition is negative in nature. Ergo, you chose to call the previous poster by a negative. Childish? Certainly. I do know DU's policy on the anti this or gun nut that, do you? I'll fill you in, they don't like it.

In a nutshell, and to sum up. You've attacked the posters in this thread yet have offered no real discussion. why is that? You began with, "Support them? No. Defend them? No." Three or four posts in and none of us really know what you stand for other than to belittle the participants of this thread. Let me reiterate, You don't support the NRA, you don't defend the NRA, you just what, belittle those with an opinion with names like anti-something? What you are feeling right now is the total disassembling of your ability to discuss or debate. It feels bad doesn't it?

My guess is it sort of feels like the guy on the Simpsons who just runs around and says, "Haw haw". He also has nothing, he contributes nothing, he, in reality, is nothing. If you need a chart or diagram of your total destruction as a participant in this discussion let me know, one will be provided.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Actually DUs position on the term anti, as in anti gun rights
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 05:50 AM by rl6214
activist is perfectly OK. But you knew this, right?

"What you are feeling right now is the total disassembling of your ability to discuss or debate."

Pot meet kettle. :rofl:

And what sort of "discussion" did you have going on here? Let's see:

1. They heard Obama would take their gun away and decided to stay home?

2. Ill-mannered assholes. It would be appallingly wrong to wonder if they might accidentally shoot off their own dicks.

6. But we always lose to the gun nuts anyway. But if the President of the United States asks you to a meeting, you go, no matter how much you despise him.

Which is why the NRA are ill-mannered assholes.

But it is quite wonderful to have you screening for content lest something unworthy strikes a gun lover's delicate eyes.

So we've got gun lovers, gun nuts and assholes in that one.

You've got some great "discussion" going on here in your thread.
:rofl:

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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. so now
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 06:42 AM by MyrnaLoy
you are changing you original post? I didn't see you use the the anti gun rights, did you? You called him anti correct? How do you know he's anti gun rights? I posted in this thread and I own guns, am I an "anti"? Your word. Let's get on the same page here, did you call him an anti or did you say he had anti gun rights? What exactly did you say? Wait...here it is, "Just funny to see anti's get all worked up into a lather that they foam at the mouth."

"It's funny to see anti's...." Hmmm is that a name or is a concept like anti gun rights? Why I do believe it is childish name calling!

See, an intelligent person doesn't need little laughing smileys, they may make you feel better when you have been completely owned I guess. I use words to make a point, you use cute little smileys, that is so sweet.

p.s, I think if you do a bit of a search you'll see Skinner's post on the use of anti

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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Actually if you read my post it just says antis
Nowhere did I say you anti or you antis. Must everything be spelled out for you?

"Why I do believe it is childish name calling!"

My oh my, you can read minds now. Reading is fundamental. Try it. An intellent person dosen't make things up that aren't there.

Next time, just for you, I might spell out the whole thing, like anti gun rights activists.

Who am I kidding, probably not.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Careful. You might actually catch that tail.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Labeling often equals description.
If you can figure out a way to make sense of the world, much less discuss it, without using labels, I would LOVE to hear it.


:popcorn:
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. Kinda hard to discuss anything without labeling it.
Unless you have a suggestion?

This nifty thing called "language", it sets us apart from most other animals, it uses things like "nouns" (i.e. "labels"), "verbs" (oops, more "labels"), "adjectives" (there we go again...), adverbs (is there no end to the madness?!), etc.

It's what we do. Deal with it, or insist on a Label you like.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. "anti-" is a statement of fact or intent, it has no positive or negative conotation....
except in the mind. And being a negative is not an absolute wrong by any stretch of imagination. Unless being "anti-authoritarian" or "anti-bigotry" or "anti-pollution" would be bad things?

You are inventing things to be upset about. Why don't you stick to the primary topic, if you can?
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
38. You forgot
Idolator, Rambo, RW Troll ( and variations there of), Making up for penis size, psycho, just looking for a reason to kill someone and of course Tacky
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. I can somewhat see their point
Obama wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants a big pow-wow so he can say he is doing something yet refuses to propose actual legislation because he knows that gun legislation seen as restricting existing gun rights would be a political disaster. Why should the NRA give Obama political top cover without something in return? If he would to say that gun bans or the AWB were off the table and the focus was on tightening the NICS process and ensuring states were complying with their legal responsibilities to provide accurate and timely information to the NICS then I suspect they would have no issues participating - the NRA played a big role in improving NICS after the Virginia Tech shooting.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. Surprises me...
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 02:21 AM by hlthe2b
NOT... :eyes:

I do love how our "progressive" gun advocates forever give NRA a pass and support, despite their stabbing progressives, (including progressive pro-gun advocates), in the back at every turn. Why in hell does anyone support NRA? Start a competing pro-gun rights group and take them out.
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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Support the NRA...
...support the Republican Party (with a few exceptions just to keep it "fair and balanced.")
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. +1
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
30. I support the NRA because of the exceptions.

When Democrats are better on the right to keep and bear arms, the NRA endorses.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Do our
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 04:26 AM by MyrnaLoy
pro-NRA members realize that every unreq they give this thread reinforces exactly what the OP is saying? An unreq of this thread is actually a req as to what it means. "This thread is offensive, it is true that the NRA took this position therefore we must hide it! Since we can no longer lie and say the NRA is for all political stripes we must unreq this thread."

It's sort of a Hide from my eyes what I don't want to see mentality.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. You know, its possible that people unrec'ed it for other reasons.

Like they may not have liked the way the NYTimes presented this information.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
35. It is not a lie to say the NRA supports Democrats...
here is a list of just some of the Democrats the NRA endorsed in 2010:

AL-2: Bobby Bright
AR-4: Mike Ross
Ca-18: Dennis Cardoza
CO-3: John Salazar
CO-4: Betsy Markey
FL-2: Allen Boyd
Ga-2: Sanford Bishop
Ga-8: Jim Marshall
Ga-12: John Barrow
IA-3: Leonard Boswell
IL-11: Debbie Halvorson
IL-12: Jerry Costello
IN-Senate-Brad Ellsworth
IN-2: Joe Donnely
IN-8: Trent Van Haaften
IN-9: Baron Hill
KY-6: Ben Chandler
MD-1: Frank Kratovil
MI-1: Gary McDowell
MN-1: Tim Walz
MS-1: Travis Childers
MS-4: Gene Taylor
MO-4: Ike Skelton
NC-7: Mike McIntyre
NC-8: Larry Kissell
NC-11: Heath Shuler
ND-At Large: Earl Pomeroy
NM-1: Martin Heinrich
NM-2: Harry Teague
NM-3: Ben Lujan
NY-20: Scott Murphy
NY-23: Bill Owens
NY-24: Mike Acruri
OH-Gov. Ted Strickland
OH-6: Charlie Wilson
OH-16: John Boccieri
OH-18: Zack Space
OK-2: Dan Boren
OR-5: Kurt Schrader
PA-4: Jason Altmire
PA-10: Chris Carney
PA-11: Paul Kanjorski
PA-12: Mark Critz
PA-17: Tim Holden
SD-At Large: Stephanie Sandlin
TN-4: Lincoln Davis
TN-8: Roy Herron
TX-17: Chet Edwards
UT-2: Jim Matheson
VA-2: Glenn Nye
VA-5: Tom Perriello
VA-9: Rick Boucher
WI-3: Ron Kind
WI-8: Steve Kagen
WV-Senate: Joe Manchin
WV-3: Nick Rahall
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. They are very successful at protecting one of my civil rights
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 07:23 AM by hack89
there is no one else that comes close. If progressives adopted a truly progressive attitude towards ALL civil rights then it wouldn't be an issue.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. And that's the problem with them.
What happens to the money train when they finally succeed? It'll dry up considerably. They can't become involved in a working group with the President to help shape legislation on one hand and do the kind of fund raising they do on the other. The NRA is in a pickle. If they don't participate on some level they will lack leadership, again, just like they did when they opposed the Heller suit. Follow the money.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. The NRA is negotiating from a position of strength
The status quo suites them just fine. Talking to Obama gives them nothing - talking to the NRA gives Obama political top cover he desperately wants. Heller did not hurt the NRA appreciably - their initial opposition had more to do with legal strategy than anything else and they did file an amicus brief. They were also instrumental in stopping the Brady Campaign's effort to moot Heller through legislation.

The NRA is smart to hold off until the terms of the discussion are more clearly defined - they have the upper hand and Obama knows that. Any solution that does not have the NRA's approval is DOA.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. You could say the same about any activist organisation.
PETA, Seirra Club, World Wildlife FOundation, etc.

Just... follow the money.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Exactly.
I don't read too much into their agenda at this point other than continued institutional survival. I'm sure their next FR attempt will be epic.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
28. There are several other pro-gun-rights groups.
Some are liberal, some are conservative. But none are as powerful as the NRA.
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VoteProgressive Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
22. The NRA will upset the right wing supporters if they even TALK to Obama.....
I lean pro-gun but are 95% anti-NRA! They are a right wing group because so many of their supporters are extreme right. They would lose membership if the NRA started talking to Obama.

I for one think the NRA could gain more members if they stayed pro-gun but anti-right wing.

When Huckabee and Palin are your keynote speakers you have trouble attracting dems.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
23. They've painted themselves into a corner.
We have a President who has made a clear statement about the 2nd Amendment and is wanting to make some changes to help separate the criminals from the rest of us and the NRA can't meet with him? It'll cost them money if they do. It'll probably cost them money if they don't but they don't see that far down the road.

I predict that Barack Obama will go down as one of the best Presidents in American History with regard to cementing 2nd Amendment rights for many years to come. It is in his interest to do so and it is pretty much settled law now. This is an easy issue for him now.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
24.  And that President represents a party that still has
support for the so called "Assault Weapons"ban as a plank of it's platform. How can they trust a party that still carries that baggage?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Rising from the smoking debris of Project GunWalker
Like Godzilla from Tokyo bay and utters that immortal phrase ......

" Trust me ! "
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
40. He'll sure as hell go down in history
as having sold more guns than any President for many years to come
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Ain't that the truth.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
29. As an NRA member, I think the NRA should and ultimately will be involved in legislative discussions.

They happily worked with Democrats after the VATech shooting and I'm sure they will again.

They mostly agree with the President's statement, but they are still holding him accountable. Other groups unhappy with President Obama should probably learn from the NRA.

And if the NRA squanders this moment, there will probably be consequences within the organization.
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Great response. Thanks
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
36. It may be time for me to cancel my NRA membership ...
Considering that I have been a member for 45 years, this would not be a fickle decision.

I felt Obama expressed an opinion on gun control which is closely aligned to my own. Obama could have mentioned another useless assault weapons ban or a ban on the sale of magazines which hold more than ten rounds. Instead he stated that he believed that the Second Amendment "guarantees an individual right to bear arms." He also said that "The fact is, almost all gun owners in America are highly responsible. They're our friends and neighbors. They buy their guns legally and use them safely, whether for hunting or target shooting, collection or protection." source: http://azstarnet.com/article_011e7118-8951-5206-a878-39bfbc9dc89d.html

He favors enforcing existing laws and improving the NICS background check.

It looks as if Wayne LaPierre wants to play politics rather than work together with Obama. If so, I predict he will lose the support of many NRA members. We want to see violence caused by firearms reduced because it endangers our sport.

LaPierre is making a serious mistake if he refuses to meet with the President. Perhaps power has gone to his head. If so, it's time for him to go.
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Flyboy_451 Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. A few things to keep in mind...
Obama has historically been strongly aligned with groups and individuals that were strongly opposed to individual ownership of firearms. His political record has been absolutely miserable in this particular regard with the exception of signing bills that included a few token items for firearms owners. Do not forget that these small victories for gun owners and supporters of the 2nd would not likely have been signed by him, had they not been attached to bills that he very much wanted passed. This is not the same as supporting gun rights. IT is a compromise that involved making very minor concessions for a much larger return.

I find it hard to believe that Obama's personal views have changed at all. I still think that, as an individual, he is very hostile toward the 2nd Amendment. I think it is more likely that he is playing politics, rather than truly changing his stance on the issue. I will give credit to him in that he recognizes that it has been ruled that the constitution stands in stark contrast to what I believe are his personal views, as long as he does not try to stretch, or interpret the ruling into something that would be easily questioned or overturned on a constitutional basis. To overcome his history in this regard will require more than mere token concessions and lip service. ACTIONS speak much louder than words, and he has a lot of previous actions to overcome in order to gain any amount of trust from 2A supporters.

I think it is very likely that this is a move to garner political capital for the upcoming election, rather than and honest effort at solving real problems with real measurable results. Maybe I am wrong, but time will tell soon enough. I would be willing to bet money that the NRA leadership is having similar thoughts. I think they are wise to play it close to the chest for now. Obama has shown that he is not their friend on many occasions.

Just my $.02

JW
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. While I see your point, I believe the NRA has an excellent opportunity to step up ...
and present a plan to improve the NICS background check system and advocate for enforcing existing law. Obviously the NRA is aware that Obama might be playing political games, but if he offers an opportunity to improve existing laws in an effective manner, the NRA should cautiously present its proposals. Declining to discuss the issue only reinforces the false perception that the NRA is merely an arm of the Republican Party.

I personally would like a plan advanced where private sales could be run through the NICS system. This could even be done on a voluntary basis as many people oppose requiring such a check. I don't see any reason why the serial numbers of the firearms should be involved. In my opinion all that should be involved is a simple verification of the fact that the buyer is not disqualified from owning firearms.

It should be possible to go to a licensed dealer and have him perform the background check for a reasonable fee of $10 to $20.

I will only sell my firearms to an individual that I know personally and who has a valid concealed weapons permit. Obviously, I don't sell many firearms. The last time I did was when I retired and decided to sell several handguns I rarely used. I sold them to a co-worker and friend who was a regular at my range and had a concealed weapons permit.

Of course the NRA will initially oppose such a plan, but they also originally opposed the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act.


After the Brady Act was originally proposed in 1987, the National Rifle Association (NRA) mobilized to defeat the legislation, spending millions of dollars in the process. While the bill eventually did pass in both chambers of the United States Congress, the NRA was able to win an important concession: the final version of the legislation provided that, in 1998, the five-day waiting period for handgun sales would be replaced by an instant computerized background check that involved no waiting periods.<16>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act


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Flyboy_451 Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. you and I often have very similar views
But on this issue I think we are gonna be just a bit out from each other. While the NRA may indeed be passing on an opportunity to help shape legislation, I still think it is the smart move. It is my opinion that the groups such as the Brady Campaign will largely shape the conversation and then paint the NRA as the bad guy for not agreeing with their point of view. Coupling that with the likelihood that Obama will side more with the gun control side than he will with the NRA, and the less than friendly manner in which the media covers the gun debate, and it becomes a situation in which there is no good that comes to the NRA in any way. Better to fight this battle in the open, rather than behind closed doors with your opponents shaping the discussion.

I do, however, agree with you on the point regarding individual access to NICS. I have long been a proponent of making this a reality just so people selling a firearm have an avenue to utilize in determining the legality of the prospective buyer. My only stipulations would be that it would have to be voluntary, rather than compulsory, because the only way to enforce a compulsory system is with national registration, which I am dead set against.

With regard to your comment about the costs of utilizing a dealer for a transfer, please allow me to give you the perspective from the dealer's side of the coin. On the rare occasions that I do a transfer, I charge $50. Before ya blow a gasket, let me point out a few of the reasons why. While you may be able to fill out a Form 4473 perfectly in less than two minutes every time, this is not the norm. Frequently, I or one of my staff, find enough errors or omissions that it takes much longer to finally arrive at a complete and correctly filled out form. In business, time equals money. Then figure that most of the people that come into a shop, want to spend a fair amount of time looking at everything, and asking every silly question you can imagine, and we now have an easy half hour that has been spent on a transaction that nets the shop no profit other than the transfer fee. This problem is particularly bad in my shop as we are a Class II manufacturer that deals almost exclusively in NFA and post sample weapons for military and law enforcement training, so the typical transfer customer cannot even buy much of anything in the shop. Granted, we are not the normal shop, but even the average shop has to make enough to keep the lights on and the staff paid. It is rare that a transfer leads to a sale within a short enough time to make the time spent on a transfer worth anything in future business.

Then consider the administrative requirements. Time spent in exchange of FFLs with whoever the gun is coming from, making sure the log books are filled out correctly, keeping the 4473 on file from now until eternity with the possibility of any errors in any of these requirements being discovered in and ATF audit and being treated as a major catastrophe. My FFL, thus my business and source of income as well as the income of my staff are all at risk. I think $50 is pretty cheap for the risk I am taking.


JW
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Few people would be willing to pay $50 ...
but I do see your point. Time is money, plus your shop is different than most gun stores.

Some dealers that are not as busy as you may be willing to perform the check for less money. They might view the effort as a way to attract people to their store who might buy accessories or merchandise.

There might be other ways to address the problem. Some people have suggested a firearms endorsement on a driver's license that would indicate that the holder was not prohibited from purchasing a firearm. The problem with this is that people would wonder why another individual didn't have an endorsement and might make false assumptions about his character. A possible solution is that a person would request an endorsement and probably pay a fee to have it on his drivers license. Most people probably wouldn't get one so not having one would be insignificant.

Of course, you might have a separate firearms card somewhat similar to a SCUBA certification card that you would have to show in order to buy a firearm from a private owner. The seller could call the number of the card in to the state to see if the buyer was still eligible and his card had not been revoked. This card might also be issued after the individual proves he has passed a firearms safety course. I have encountered people who owned firearms and had no idea if they were loaded or how to check to see.

Many firearm owners would view such requirements as a severe pain in the ass and perhaps they are right. Still, there should be a method that I can use to assure myself that the person who is interested in buying a used firearm from me is not a violent criminal with a record or a person with an adjudicated mental problem that disqualifies him from owning firearms.
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Flyboy_451 Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. the price is largely a deterrent to people asking me to do transfers
They generate more hassle than they do income...

My biggest concerns are with improving or modifying NICS. The system is not what it should and can be. As for opening it to individuals, I would love to see it happen, but the devil will be in the details for sure.

I am more curious tho about your displeasure with the NRA, and would be curious as to your thoughts on my previous post. The primary reason that I ask is because of my own opinion of Obama and his history on 2A issues. Interestingly enough, I am on the edge of whether or not I will support him in the coming election, and this will play a large part in making that decision. Just to clarify, that does not necessarily mean I would vote against him, just that he may lose my vote.

This is not because I am a single issue voter, but because of other issues that I think he has handled quite poorly. I cast my vote for him last time around based on issues that I felt overshadowed his stance on 2A, but he has been less than impressive with those issues. He will have to show me something to keep my vote.

I mention this because I am exactly the type of voter that he will need to keep to prevail in the coming election. It is a given that the die hard partisan voters on both sides will cast their ballots as expected. Those of us that are more to wards the middle are the ones that he needs to pursue, and this could be a prime way to do exactly that...or the opposite.

He will also have to be very careful not to say one thing and then do the opposite, as this could lead to catastrophic damage to the party as a whole. He is in a difficult position and I think his actions could have more consequences than many realize.

JW
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. I feel that now is a good chance for the NRA to advocate "effective" improvements ...
to our current gun laws.

I agree that Obama has a strong record of opposing firearms but it is necessary to realize that he is a politician from Chicago. The Windy City is a strong bastion of opposition to RKBA. A Democrat rising through the political ranks in Chicago would have little chance of getting elected dog catcher if he was pro-RKBA.

At a national level, the political reality of the gun control issue changes dramatically. In Chicago voters are unfamiliar with firearms and consequently their exposure has largely been to the negative and irresponsible use of handguns in criminal hands. The voters in most areas of the rest of the country have a much more favorable view of responsible gun owners and realize that firearms can be used for both sport and legitimate self defense.

During the last Presidential election, Obama did play the typical politician in that when he was making a speech at a San Francisco fundraiser he made the following comments:


You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Obama_on_smalltown_PA_Clinging_religion_guns_xenophobia.html


Obviously this might play well in San Francisco but proved to be a dud in much of the rest of the country.

It's hard to say exactly what Obama's true feelings are on RKBA. In his recent editorial in the Arizona Daily Star he stated:


Now, like the majority of Americans, I believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms. And the courts have settled that as the law of the land. In this country, we have a strong tradition of gun ownership that's handed from generation to generation. Hunting and shooting are part of our national heritage. And, in fact, my administration has not curtailed the rights of gun owners - it has expanded them, including allowing people to carry their guns in national parks and wildlife refuges.

The fact is, almost all gun owners in America are highly responsible. They're our friends and neighbors. They buy their guns legally and use them safely, whether for hunting or target shooting, collection or protection. And that's something that gun-safety advocates need to accept. Likewise, advocates for gun owners should accept the awful reality that gun violence affects Americans everywhere, whether on the streets of Chicago or at a supermarket in Tucson.

***snip***

That's why our focus right now should be on sound and effective steps that will actually keep those irresponsible, law-breaking few from getting their hands on a gun in the first place.

• First, we should begin by enforcing laws that are already on the books. The National Instant Criminal Background Check System is the filter that's supposed to stop the wrong people from getting their hands on a gun. Bipartisan legislation four years ago was supposed to strengthen this system, but it hasn't been properly implemented. It relies on data supplied by states - but that data is often incomplete and inadequate. We must do better.
http://azstarnet.com/article_011e7118-8951-5206-a878-39bfbc9dc89d.html
emphasis added


Wayne LaPierre replied:


We read your editorial submission to the Arizona Star. However, to focus a national dialogue on guns — and not criminals or mental health issues — misses the point entirely. Americans are not afraid of gun ownership. To the contrary, they overwhelmingly support the fundamental, individual right to keep and bear arms. The primary reason why tens of millions of Americans own firearms is that they fear violent criminals roaming the streets undeterred.

***snip***

The government owes its citizens its most vigorous efforts to enforce penalties against those who violate our existing laws. The NRA has members proudly serving in law enforcement agencies at every level. Rank and file law enforcement want to arrest bad people — not harass law-abiding gun owners and retailers.

As for enforcing the laws on the books, we strongly suggest you enforce those that actually take violent criminals off the streets. To start, we urge you to contact every U.S. attorney and ask them to bring at least ten cases per month against drug dealers, gang members and other violent felons caught illegally possessing firearms. By prosecuting these criminals in federal court — rather than state court — strong sentencing guidelines would apply and charges would not be plea-bargained or dismissed, nor would criminals be released after serving only a fraction of their sentences. This simple directive would result in roughly 12,000 violent criminals being taken off the streets every year. Surely you agree that this would be a good first step.
http://www.ammoland.com/2011/03/16/nra-response-to-president-obamas-op-ed-on-gun-laws/


Now I agree with much of what Wayne LaPierre said but he also refused to sit down and talk.


NRA refuses to meet with Obama

***snip***

Let's hope the President fights the instinct to give them something for nothing in order to woo them to the table.“Why should I or the N.R.A. go sit down with a group of people that have spent a lifetime trying to destroy the Second Amendment in the United States?” said Wayne LaPierre, the longtime chief executive of the National Rifle Association.

He named Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, who has almost no role in gun-related policies, and Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr.
http://www.americablog.com/2011/03/nra-refuses-to-meet-with-obama.html


I believe that the strongest arguments support RKBA and by discussing the issues, the NRA can produce convincing rebuttals that will counter any positions presented by the Brady Campaign and other RKBA opponents. On this forum, the strongest arguments come from those who support RKBA and it's rare for those who oppose it to counter with strong and valid points based on facts and statistics. They commonly use emotional arguments about the tragic misuse of firearms to support their position and often resort to insults when it's pointed out that often firearm are used legitimately in self defense to save lives. When you consider that DU is a very liberal and progressive board with many very intelligent posters, the fact that the pro-RKBA posters are able to hold their own and prevail is surprising and shows how strong our arguments are.

Perhaps Wayne LaPierre is interested in stopping NRA members from fleeing to other pro-RKBA organizations such as the GOA. Gun Owners of American is a far more right wing organization than the NRA and it will say the NRA is pandering to Obama if the NRA sits down to honestly discuss the issues.

If so, LaPierre is guilty of playing politics and not representing the desire of many of his membership who want to reduce unnecessary gun violence by enforcing and improving existing laws. But not participating, he allows those who oppose firearms an opportunity to impress both the media and the President by proposing "feel good" laws such as a ban on magazines which hold more than 10 rounds. Such laws will do nothing to solve any problem.

Of course, the NRA can use the results of Obama's meeting with the Brady Campaign and other organizations that oppose firearms to drive future contribution campaigns and discussing how Obama wants to ban or confiscate firearms.

I would rather have the NRA work together with the President and the Brady Campaign to find truly effective solutions. It's a far more mature and rational approach than acting like a child with a temper tantrum who refuses to play a game with other children he is not fond of.

Obama may, as you suggest, be "very hostile toward the 2nd Amendment". If so, the NRA can attend the meetings and put forth an honest effort and then walk out. They can then discuss why they feel Obama does not support the Second Amendment. Obama would suffer far more damage from this approach. If he truly is opposed to firearm ownership, he wins if the NRA fails to discuss the issue. He can say, "I tried to reach out to them, but they refused my offer."

My biggest disappointment with Obama is that I hoped for a stronger leader. I was very disappointed that he didn't take the point in the fight for healthcare, but instead allowed Reid and Pelosi to screw it up. I am also disappointed in his ability to create jobs and turn the economy around. Admittedly it's a daunting task, but I think his advisers helped Wall Street and the banks but ignored Main Street. Still, the election is a long way off and our economy does seem to be improving.




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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
53. The NRA has always supported strengthening NICS..
Why 'come to the table' if you agree with the majority of the president's position?

The only other thing I can see that the NRA would disagree with was the presidents oblique reference to regulating private sales.
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right2bfree Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. Good, then we can get the mentally ill on the NICS databases! nt
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Those adjudicated a danger to themselves or others, yes.
Or those who have been involuntarily committed.

But anyone who is 'mentally ill'? (however vaguely you define that) -- no.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
37. Political theatre. nt
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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
43. I am not surprised
This is a no-win situation for the NRA.

It goes without saying that this policy meeting has only one goal in mind - setting new restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms. If the NRA were to meet with the President on this issue they would be seen as helping play a part in crafting those new restrictions.

I'm betting that the thrust of this new policy making is to figure out how to restrict private firearm sales.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
47. "Gun safety groups" huh?
What has Brady, VPC, or the outlaw mayors ever done which justifies the moniker "gun safety group"?
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
50. corrected it
"WASHINGTON — More than two months after the Tucson shootings, the administration is calling together both the gun lobby and gun BAN groups to find common ground. But President Obama has no plans to take the lead in proposing further gun control legislation, aides say, and the nation’s major gun rights group is snubbing the invitation."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/us/politics/15guns.ht...


Good, I'd snub them also. They're going to talk about how we're going to compromise with gun control vs gun freedom. No. We are not compromising, we are advancing in the pro gun direction. The gun BAN groups are a bunch of bankrupt propagandists and liars and the NRA is doing the right thing in not participating in this. Also, why didn't the liberal gun groups and the JPFO, GOA get invited?
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. GOA would press to close the GunWalking Loophole that is killing cops
They might as well have invited me .
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AzNick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
58. I contacted it (I am a member)
I intend to call them out on their gutless move.

I don't pay LaPierre to sit on his ass and skip an opportunity to talk with Obama on the gun issue.

According to the NRA, there is no "gun issue".
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
60. It's because they're scared of Obama.
He's black, La Pierre is white.
Lily white.
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